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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on June 12, 2017, 06:33:09 AM
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Immortals can be killed on Halloween. However I'm wondering if they can also be killed by special weapons. The Swords come to mind, but what got me thinking about this was Morgan Le Fay's athame. It's supposed to be on par with a Knight's Sword. I'm wondering if that's why Leah wanted it so badly, to kill Mab and become the new Queen. Now Mab has it.... It hasn't been talked about in recent books but I think it will come back in play. The question is how, and why? Will she use it to kill Mother Winter?
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I also speculate that the Athame is actually Carnwennan:
Carnwennan, or Carnwenhau ("white hilt"), was the dagger of King Arthur in the Welsh Arthurian legends. It is sometimes attributed with the magical power to shroud its user in shadow. In Culhwch and Olwen Arthur names it as one of the few things in the world which he will not give to Culhwch. Later, he uses it to slay the witch Orddu daughter of Orwen by slicing her in half
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We don't know when Michael killed Siriothrax, but if it wasn't coincidentally Halloween, I assume that using a Sword is sufficient.
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I also speculate that the Athame is actually Carnwennan:
Arthur being contemporary to Morgan, isn't it somewhat difficult for Morgan's athame to also be Arthur's dagger?
Now, the knife Mab had Harry use to sacrifice Slate? That, I could see for Carnwennan.
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Arthur being contemporary to Morgan, isn't it somewhat difficult for Morgan's athame to also be Arthur's dagger?
In the research I was doing last night Morgana wasn't known to have a magical knife. Arthur on the other hand did. Not only that but Morgana was known to steal Arthur's things. She stole Excalibur at least once.
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Would you really expect a knife historically known as "White Hilt" to be all black with an /obsidian/ blade? Similarly the knife used on the Stone table was described as a bronze leaf-shapes blade with a simple wood and leather hilt.
Fwiw, where Carnwennan appears, it is one of Three magic weapons attributed to Arthur: Rhongomiant, Arthur's spear, and Caledfwlch, Arthur's sword, as sacred weapons given to him by God. This has me thinking of KotC. Since we already know that a) Arthur had Amoracchius, b)Wielders of Amoracchius are considered unusual even by KotC standards, and c) the only time a single person has wielded multiple Swords was Michael (DM, Ch. 32). I have to at least raise the possibility that Arthur was just so damn badass that he was actually given use of all three? As far as Hero levels go, he's got to rank up there with Merlin, who himself seems to have all but built the modern world order while breaking nigh cosmic-level natural laws (DR construction)
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Would you really expect a knife historically known as "White Hilt" to be all black with an /obsidian/ blade? Similarly the knife used on the Stone table was described as a bronze leaf-shapes blade with a simple wood and leather hilt.
Fwiw, where Carnwennan appears, it is one of Three magic weapons attributed to Arthur: Rhongomiant, Arthur's spear, and Caledfwlch, Arthur's sword, as sacred weapons given to him by God. This has me thinking of KotC. Since we already know that a) Arthur had Amoracchius, b)Wielders of Amoracchius are considered unusual even by KotC standards, and c) the only time a single person has wielded multiple Swords was Michael (DM, Ch. 32). I have to at least raise the possibility that Arthur was just so damn badass that he was actually given use of all three? As far as Hero levels go, he's got to rank up there with Merlin, who himself seems to have all but built the modern world order while breaking nigh cosmic-level natural laws (DR construction)
Yeah the description of her blade is a major death blow to my theory, unless she modified Carnwennan for some reason. If it's not the blade did Jim create his own lore, or what? Because I can't find anything like that connected to her.
In lore she is able to turn things (including herself) into stone.. So my theory is on life support but she may have Carnwennan, and turned it into the obsidian blade we see in the book.
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Yeah the description of her blade is a major death blow to my theory, unless she modified Carnwennan for some reason. If it's not the blade did Jim create his own lore, or what? Because I can't find anything like that connected to her.
Id propose that all that means is that the athame was not already Famous in the same way most of the other magical artifacts were. Per the WOJ on it, It sounds like it started as an ordinary thing, but the Athame accumulated Power through repeated Use rather than some specific endowment. So Perhaps it wasnt yet "special" when Morgana had it, but she was famous and her followers kept using it and revering it, until if took on Power of it's own. So by comparison, if the Council had preserved the original Merlin's staff (or any other famous wizards staff) and they'd kept it in active use all that time (maybe ceremonially pass it on to each sucessor) it would gain similar power. Do you think that interpretation would fit the WOJ below?
What is the Black Athame, and what is it’s relation to Medea’s Bodkin?
The Black Athame was Morgan La Fay’s athame. That was the one that got traded around in Grave Peril… at the vampire costume party. Well an Athame is the original knife that was used in magic, and while they aren’t necessarily magical themselves, if you involve them in enough really cool big things that are going on, they start gaining their own sort of power and their own sort of awareness. Which is not to say they become intelligent or anything, but they become very extremely dangerous tools. And that one was a very, very dangerous tool, on a level with Ammoracchius, which is why it got traded that way. Medea’s Bodkin is another Athame that is far older, and is used more classically documented witches. The ones who actually survived falls of several empires there –you still hear about them- Also a very bad news kind of implement, just so you know.
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Id propose that all that means is that the athame was not already Famous in the same way most of the other magical artifacts were. Per the WOJ on it, It sounds like it started as an ordinary thing, but the Athame accumulated Power through repeated Use rather than some specific endowment. So Perhaps it wasnt yet "special" when Morgana had it, but she was famous and her followers kept using it and revering it, until if took on Power of it's own. So by comparison, if the Council had preserved the original Merlin's staff (or any other famous wizards staff) and they'd kept it in active use all that time (maybe ceremonially pass it on to each sucessor) it would gain similar power. Do you think that interpretation would fit the WOJ below?
What is the Black Athame, and what is it’s relation to Medea’s Bodkin?
The Black Athame was Morgan La Fay’s athame. That was the one that got traded around in Grave Peril… at the vampire costume party. Well an Athame is the original knife that was used in magic, and while they aren’t necessarily magical themselves, if you involve them in enough really cool big things that are going on, they start gaining their own sort of power and their own sort of awareness. Which is not to say they become intelligent or anything, but they become very extremely dangerous tools. And that one was a very, very dangerous tool, on a level with Ammoracchius, which is why it got traded that way. Medea’s Bodkin is another Athame that is far older, and is used more classically documented witches. The ones who actually survived falls of several empires there –you still hear about them- Also a very bad news kind of implement, just so you know.
Interesting! Wonder if that's how the Black Staff gained it's power
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Interesting! Wonder if that's how the Black Staff gained it's power
Hmmm, possible? Here's the WOJ on the Blackstaff's sources of Power, I think you could read it in that light (there's certainly similar wording there), depending on how you envision Mother Winter's wild college years...
2013 Wyrdcon Q&A
The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe. But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.
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Hmmm, possible? Here's the WOJ on the Blackstaff's sources of Power, I think you could read it in that light (there's certainly similar wording there), depending on how you envision Mother Winter's wild college years...
Wasn't there another WoJ about how the Swords are special in some way (re:power) and he's only introduced one other such item so far (this is pre-SG) with the implication that it is the Blackstaff?
I may be misremembering.
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The Stone Table is probably a place where even immortals can die.
From the way Vadderung spoke about his office, I suspect Places of Power allow for killing of immortals as well. So, for example, I imagine Mab can kill immortals in Arctis Tor, and anyone Mother Winter cooks and eats isn't coming back.
For that matter, the Unraveling can possibly kill and immortal, when used in the right way...
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Wasn't there another WoJ about how the Swords are special in some way (re:power) and he's only introduced one other such item so far (this is pre-SG) with the implication that it is the Blackstaff?
I may be misremembering.
I thought there was a woj that there will be 9 powerful objects i the Dresdenverse
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Is the Merlin’s staff a special staff of office, like the Blackstaff, with special abilities?
There are very few objects that have “special abilities.” I’ve only shown about five of them, in fact, including the Swords, the Blackstaff, and the Noose.
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Wasn't there another WoJ about how the Swords are special in some way (re:power) and he's only introduced one other such item so far (this is pre-SG) with the implication that it is the Blackstaff?
I may be misremembering.
What Wyltok posted, that WOJ mentioned the swords, the noose, and the Blackstaff specifically. It was back around the release of Changes, so none of the SG items would count, though worth noting that the shroud from DM is excluded while the Noose is not. I personally give the Stone Table a pass on account of it being more of a Place of Power than a traditional Item of Power.
I thought there was a woj that there will be 9 powerful objects i the Dresdenverse
Ive never heard anything predictive or that specific. Though I think we could call that one debunked post-SG, if we're agreed that the number is now up to at least Ten. Eleven if you want to attribute more mythological significance to Hades' Crown (Helm of Hades (http://greekmythology.wikia.com/wiki/Helm_of_Darkness)?)
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If I remember correct, there are three weapons linked to Arthur. A sword, spear and a dagger. If the Knights have the sword, and the athame is the dagger, so where is the spear?
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Until recently? In Hades vault.
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Krull Glaive for the win.
(https://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/original/yp_51968590284404.96674617/Krull-Krull-Glaive-Replica-3.jpg)
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What Wyltok posted, that WOJ mentioned the swords, the noose, and the Blackstaff specifically. It was back around the release of Changes, so none of the SG items would count, though worth noting that the shroud from DM is excluded while the Noose is not. I personally give the Stone Table a pass on account of it being more of a Place of Power than a traditional Item of Power.
Yup! Thanks Wyltok.
Point is, the Blackstaff is *something else* when it comes to power, unlike the Athame.
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If I remember correct, there are three weapons linked to Arthur. A sword, spear and a dagger. If the Knights have the sword, and the athame is the dagger, so where is the spear?
It also occurs to me that there might be some (nasty) possibilities in combination of more ordinary technology and/or magic to deal with immortals. IIRC, Bob told Harry something to the effect that you could kill an immortal (Maeve in that specific case) and mulch the corpse, and all you'd do (except on Halloween) would be to delay her return.
So suppose someone wanted to keep an immortal, say Mab for an example, down. Assuming he managed to kill her in the first place, you could mulch the corpse, then put a tracer spell on the remains, or otherwise attach some kind of magic to tell you what the mantle was doing, and when it starts to bring her back...mulch her again before she can recover. Or things along those lines. If you really had it in for her, you could even make sure each successive death was a whole new agony, sort of like what she did to Lloyd.
No wonder Mab wants Bob's knowledge out of circulation...Bob told Harry that one of the early Council Merlins apparently knew about the Halloween effect, because he originated the custom of masks on Halloween as a protective ritual. I wonder what ever happened to that Merlin, and if the Senior Council people might still know the truth?
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Krull Glaive for the win.
(https://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/original/yp_51968590284404.96674617/Krull-Krull-Glaive-Replica-3.jpg)
Yeah, but didn't you have to be a prince and marry a special princess and pass fire between the two of you during the ceremony? Then and only then could you wield it... Oh yeah, you had to stick your hand in lava to retrieve it.. It's been years since I saw the movie..
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It also occurs to me that there might be some (nasty) possibilities in combination of more ordinary technology and/or magic to deal with immortals. IIRC, Bob told Harry something to the effect that you could kill an immortal (Maeve in that specific case) and mulch the corpse, and all you'd do (except on Halloween) would be to delay her return.
So suppose someone wanted to keep an immortal, say Mab for an example, down. Assuming he managed to kill her in the first place, you could mulch the corpse, then put a tracer spell on the remains, or otherwise attach some kind of magic to tell you what the mantle was doing, and when it starts to bring her back...mulch her again before she can recover. Or things along those lines. If you really had it in for her, you could even make sure each successive death was a whole new agony, sort of like what she did to Lloyd.
I think at that point it would be easier to keep her alive but trapped, rather than repeatedly tracking down her corpse/energies that might reform almost anywhere in the mortal world or the NN (assuming it can start running after it realizes you are hunting it).
No wonder Mab wants Bob's knowledge out of circulation...Bob told Harry that one of the early Council Merlins apparently knew about the Halloween effect, because he originated the custom of masks on Halloween as a protective ritual. I wonder what ever happened to that Merlin, and if the Senior Council people might still know the truth?
It was "second or third Merlin of the White Council" so Id assume s/he died over the years (half-death retirements cannot be the norm, right?).
Fermilab. Just outside of Chicago, a 3.9 mile PERFECT CIRCLE OF AWESOME SCIENTIFIC MIGHT!!! (muahahah)
There has to be a use for this, no?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Fermilab.jpg/1280px-Fermilab.jpg)
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if the Senior Council people might still know the truth?
Probably but i doubt they make it known they are aware of it because... Mab and stuff.
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Fermilab. Just outside of Chicago, a 3.9 mile PERFECT CIRCLE OF AWESOME SCIENTIFIC MIGHT!!! (muahahah)
There has to be a use for this, no?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Fermilab.jpg/1280px-Fermilab.jpg)
That would make for an interesting (summoning)circle if anyone could imagine it. However, I think the delicate electronical components in it though would not respond well to any magic that used it.
/Ulfgeir
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That would make for an interesting (summoning)circle if anyone could imagine it. However, I think the delicate electronical components in it though would not respond well to any magic that used it.
/Ulfgeir
Only a problem if it is a Mortal using it...
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Only a problem if it is a Mortal using it...
Someone as powerful as say Mab, or the Mothers, or Ferro might not even need a circle like that to summon something. Might be what weaker things need.
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Someone as powerful as say Mab, or the Mothers, or Ferro might not even need a circle like that to summon something. Might be what weaker things need.
I dunno. On the one hand we've been told that theoretically circles are unnecessary because anyone sufficiently Powerful can Imagine one strong enough to all but Will it into existence.
On the other hand, there are hard&fast rules to how Power is quantified (barring trans-dimensional exceptions like DR), such as the fact that the material impacts the function of the Circle (Iron affects Fae, Blood can carry the most energy, etc. Also the perfection of the geometry affects efficiency.
So I have to think that a 4 mile Perfect circle drawn in Pure Energy moving at nearly the Speed of Light would still prove Useful even to the upper-tiers of the NN beings. I cant say for certain that it would allow them to do things they could not do otherwise, but Im confident anything that might call for it would be easier with Fermilab than without
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I dunno. On the one hand we've been told that theoretically circles are unnecessary because anyone sufficiently Powerful can Imagine one strong enough to all but Will it into existence.
On the other hand, there are hard&fast rules to how Power is quantified (barring trans-dimensional exceptions like DR), such as the fact that the material impacts the function of the Circle (Iron affects Fae, Blood can carry the most energy, etc. Also the perfection of the geometry affects efficiency.
So I have to think that a 4 mile Perfect circle drawn in Pure Energy moving at nearly the Speed of Light would still prove Useful even to the upper-tiers of the NN beings. I cant say for certain that it would allow them to do things they could not do otherwise, but Im confident anything that might call for it would be easier with Fermilab than without
Can you imagine the being that would take a 4 mile circle of containment?
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Hmm, an idea, using the Fermilab circle, to focus lots and lots of energy (possibly built up from thaumaturgy) at one specific target... Basically have it be a capacitator for energy. Instant Deathstar...
/Ulfgeir
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Can you imagine the being that would take a 4 mile circle of containment?
Hecatoncheires
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Hecatoncheires
Ooh, good call. Or to expand that category a bit, really anything you could describe as a "Kaiju".
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Ah yes, and then the Council conjures up its bigger bad from the new HQ at CERN :p
Though that one is 27 km in circumference, which may be excessive even for the biggest and baddest of the NN 8)
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Ah yes, and then the Council conjures up its bigger bad from the new HQ at CERN :p
Though that one is 27 km in circumference, which may be excessive even for the biggest and baddest of the NN 8)
27km...3^3 km. Im sure that can be useful in a ritual sense at least. It straddles a border of two nations too, which might help with penetrating gatewayes.
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I think at that point it would be easier to keep her alive but trapped, rather than repeatedly tracking down her corpse/energies that might reform almost anywhere in the mortal world or the NN (assuming it can start running after it realizes you are hunting it).It was "second or third Merlin of the White Council" so Id assume s/he died over the years (half-death retirements cannot be the norm, right?).
Fermilab. Just outside of Chicago, a 3.9 mile PERFECT CIRCLE OF AWESOME SCIENTIFIC MIGHT!!! (muahahah)
There has to be a use for this, no?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Fermilab.jpg/1280px-Fermilab.jpg)
That would make for an interesting (summoning)circle if anyone could imagine it. However, I think the delicate electronical components in it though would not respond well to any magic that used it.
/Ulfgeir
It MIGHT contain the ego of Rameriez.
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That would make for an interesting (summoning)circle if anyone could imagine it. However, I think the delicate electronical components in it though would not respond well to any magic that used it.
/Ulfgeir
It MIGHT contain the ego of Rameriez.
I doubt he has much of an ego after recent events.
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I doubt he has much of an ego after recent events.
And besides, is it really ego if he's actually that good?
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And besides, is it really ego if he's actually that good?
I didn't see anything that really suggested he had much of an ego to begin with.
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I didn't see anything that really suggested he had much of an ego to begin with.
I think he very much worked to portray the appearance of a massive Ego, but I dont think there was much substance behind it. Probably the easiest way to get along with the rest of a military force that is mostly made of folks with more history than some countries.
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It would be kind of fun to see a Loup-Garou trapped in a circle that large.
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It would be kind of fun to see a Loup-Garou trapped in a circle that large.
Would it even notice? It could wander around all night in that thing and potentially never realize it's contained. Especially if there are sources of meat inside.
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Would it even notice? It could wander around all night in that thing and potentially never realize it's contained. Especially if there are sources of meat inside.
Seems like a good idea to me. We should do all we can to simulate the natural habitat of these creatures when constructing their enclosures.
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Seems like a good idea to me. We should do all we can to simulate the natural habitat of these creatures when constructing their enclosures.
Hah, touche
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Heck, we should take it further. Capture a wide variety of these rare and exotic Supernatural Creatures and hold them in similar enclosures. Make it some sort of theme park. It's a perfect plan.
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I think something being trapped in too small of circle would be awesome!
(http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.qvKDtqegJpj42EXmJT_oOAEsDh&pid=15.1)
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Back to the OP ....
We have an example of another weapon killing an immortal.
Morgan took one out using a Nuclear explosion when he lured a Nagloshii to the test ground during the testing back in the 1940s
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Back to the OP ....
We have an example of another weapon killing an immortal.
Morgan took one out using a Nuclear explosion when he lured a Nagloshii to the test ground during the testing back in the 1940s
Hurt it enough to knock it off his trail, but there's nothing to say it was able to get around the Immortal part and actually destroy the thing, he'd presumably be able to pull himself back together eventually, as described in CD. Several folks think Shaggy was that same Naaglosshi that was nursing an old grudge.
But if any mundane weapon can do it on it's own (ie absent Halloween or a special killing ground or something) A nuke should be it, per WOJ they are some damn disruptive things.
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By definition, "mortal" refers to a thing which has life, and that life will eventually end. Some species of insects only live for weeks. Some species of trees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoioideae) live for thousands of years.
By definition, "immortal" refers to a thing which has life, and that life will never end. An immortal being will not die and cannot be killed.
Human perspective might cause some to think that a being with very long life might be 'immortal', but that is an error. A reader's idea of "immortal" in the DresdenVerse may be based on that perspective. There are myths and legends of 'gods' who have been killed, but they had to have been mortal in the first place.
;) ;) ;)
That might be true in normal worlds, but TDF has 4-5 different levels of Mortality, and some creatures fall into multiple categories (Like Wampires).
Mortal:
Vanilla Mortal - Not special, not a Wizard, Changeling etc.
Mortal - Have a Mortal Soul. This include Humans, Wizards, Wampires, Sasquach/yeti/tree and mountain folk, Half-Rampires, Changeling that have not yet Chosen, etc.
Immortal:
Functional Immortal - No Natural Life expectancy, Anything that eventually stops aging. Includes Wampires, Denarian Hosts, Rampires, most (all?) Fae, and most (all?) NN Spirits.
Mantled Immortals - Those creatures that, by possession of an Immortal Mantle, cannot be killed no matter how much damage they take, unless specific circumstances are met (IE conjuctions).
Cosmic Beings* - Truely Immortal Things that are unique (not a Mantle) which will not move to another host, but also cannot be truely Killed/ended. Suspected examples are Angels, Walkers, and the Sleepers.
*Cosmic beings may all have something akin to Mantles (maybe Grace) that
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By definition, "mortal" refers to a thing which has life, and that life will eventually end. Some species of insects only live for weeks. Some species of trees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoioideae) live for thousands of years.
By definition, "immortal" refers to a thing which has life, and that life will never end. An immortal being will not die and cannot be killed.
Human perspective might cause some to think that a being with very long life might be 'immortal', but that is an error. A reader's idea of "immortal" in the DresdenVerse may be based on that perspective. There are myths and legends of 'gods' who have been killed, but they had to have been mortal in the first place.
;) ;) ;)
In the Dresdenverse there are immortals, and Immortals. They don't fall under the dictionary definition. An immortal is someone like a vampire who doesn't die easily, and don't appear to age. Immortals are the real deal. They either cannot die, or only under very special circumstances like Halloween.
My guess is that immortal's are mostly alive (connected to the mortal realm), but have a connection the the Nevernever or spirit realm, while Immortals are even further away from the mortal plane (Earth).
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It is said immortals feed upon each other it think, so they would count as living weapons.
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Immortals feed upon each other during special times, like Halloween, when they're more mutable. One can't necessarily do it any time they want.
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Yup! Thanks Wyltok.
Point is, the Blackstaff is *something else* when it comes to power, unlike the Athame.
It's funny because the three swords are generally thought to have a guardian/grace attached to it. One wonders about similar powered beings being connected to the other two. Something I'd not thought of at all on the noose before.
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I would say that a good definition of immortal in the DV would be someone who would not expect to "die of natural causes."
Meaning that they would keep on going, barring any kind of disease or trauma. Humans can expect to die of natural causes if they don't succumb to some kind of disease or trauma.
Beings like Wampires WON'T die of natural causes, making them effectively immortal, unless something comes along and KILLS them.
Other immortals require very special circumstances, but still fall under the ageis of immortal, but for those circumstances.
Then there are the truly Immortal. I don't know that we've met any of them yet. Even Uriel can be killed under the right circumstances.
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I think the stone table can help kill immortals, but in a way allow them to be reborn.
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Hurt it enough to knock it off his trail, but there's nothing to say it was able to get around the Immortal part and actually destroy the thing, he'd presumably be able to pull himself back together eventually, as described in CD. Several folks think Shaggy was that same Naaglosshi that was nursing an old grudge.
I've seen that theory (that Shagnasty was Morgan's creature), but to my knowledge there's been no WoJ supporting it and I've seen no evidence at all of it in the texts.
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I've seen that theory (that Shagnasty was Morgan's creature), but to my knowledge there's been no WoJ supporting it and I've seen no evidence at all of it in the texts.
I can take it or leave it. It doesn't add nor detract from the story for it to have been the same one or not.
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I've seen that theory (that Shagnasty was Morgan's creature), but to my knowledge there's been no WoJ supporting it and I've seen no evidence at all of it in the texts.
Oh, agreed. It's not confirmed in anything I know of, and it's barely hinted in the books, though it also doesnt contradict anything I know of. The closest thing that Id call support of this theory is the WOJ on Shagnasty's motivations, which were that he was hired but that things like him to get paid in money, they operate in a world of Favors and Grudges.
I do think the logic of the argument stands up fairly well, in that that Shaggy a) was "hired", doesnt care about money but very much cares about grudges, and b) should need some extreme motivation to chase Morgan given the innate weakening he faces by leaving his native lands.
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Something interesting I came across on Skinwalkers is in order for a human to become one they, as a 'witch' already, have to murder a member of their own family. Considering what the skinwalkers are, where they came from, and how many of them are locked away in DR, I think the guy in PG had very good reasons for his insanity of 'being a god'. Connections for N, black magic taint and prisoners looking for a mirror/outlet?
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Something interesting I came across on Skinwalkers is in order for a human to become one they, as a 'witch' already, have to murder a member of their own family. Considering what the skinwalkers are, where they came from, and how many of them are locked away in DR, I think the guy in PG had very good reasons for his insanity of 'being a god'. Connections for N, black magic taint and prisoners looking for a mirror/outlet?
I see the similarities. just to check, your not saying that kid in PG was on his way to becoming a (trained style) Naagloshii, no? Naagloshii are specific and limited to the American Southwest, they loose power the longer they are away from it; the kid in PG was from Korea iirc, so I dont think that would be the Corrutpion tradition he was working with. Though I would not be at all surprised if there wasnt an Eastern equivalent, either a similar creature with a training/corrution mechanism or the actual Same entity that simply has a different name in eastern Languages.
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I see the similarities. just to check, your not saying that kid in PG was on his way to becoming a (trained style) Naagloshii, no? Naagloshii are specific and limited to the American Southwest, they loose power the longer they are away from it; the kid in PG was from Korea iirc, so I dont think that would be the Corrutpion tradition he was working with. Though I would not be at all surprised if there wasnt an Eastern equivalent, either a similar creature with a training/corrution mechanism or the actual Same entity that simply has a different name in eastern Languages.
Oh yea, skinwalker myths abound and not all of them are Am-southwest. For simplicities sake I'd say all such beings are the same beings under different names and legends, All with their own area's.
I think the biggest difference between the kid and any other human to Naagloshi probably WAS the training. Naagloshi, the originals are semidivine beings limited to their own 'holy' land. can't recall specifically why they couldn't leave their lands. Why in the thematic of the DF do they lose said power though? I think they can only keep full power on their own land because It's their sanctum, they are bonded to the land there and leaving it subjects them to Rent they can't pay. So it comes out of their personal self, it might even be that the land rejects them(Mother says you have no place here, Father says, ect) and cuts off their power supply or causes it's flow to dwindle just like a sanctum would increase the flow. So no magical intake on a creature that seemingly runs on magic. Not sure if this would apply to human to Naagloshi though, no divinity, so?
Bottom line, I think by being like the skinwalkers they invite them in, even those whom may be trapped elsewhere with "the least opportunity to express themselves".
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Oh yea, skinwalker myths abound and not all of them are Am-southwest. For simplicities sake I'd say all such beings are the same beings under different names and legends, All with their own area's.
Id be careful on that. "Skinwalker" is a term that is widely used but also very diverse in its application. Just because another myth gets translated to "Skinwalker" wouldnt be enough on it's own to equate them with Naagloshii in my book. Many Skinwalker usages Ive seen, for example, are basically just (usually evil) shapeshifters. The Dresden TV show had a "Skinwalker" that was mostly just a shapeshifter with a Buffalo Bill fetish.
The elements Id look for to equate with a Naagloshii are shapeshifting and/or innate Magic, the whole Power Via Fear thing, the "Intellectus for Torture" Ability, the presence of both Native/divine versions and the Trained Ex-Human ones, and also the part where they are Anchored to a particular geographic location and loose power if they leave.
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Id be careful on that. "Skinwalker" is a term that is widely used but also very diverse in its application. Just because another myth gets translated to "Skinwalker" wouldnt be enough on it's own to equate them with Naagloshii in my book. Many Skinwalker usages Ive seen, for example, are basically just (usually evil) shapeshifters. The Dresden TV show had a "Skinwalker" that was mostly just a shapeshifter with a Buffalo Bill fetish.
The elements Id look for to equate with a Naagloshii are shapeshifting and/or innate Magic, the whole Power Via Fear thing, the "Intellectus for Torture" Ability, the presence of both Native/divine versions and the Trained Ex-Human ones, and also the part where they are Anchored to a particular geographic location and loose power if they leave.
Mostly i'd isolate it to 'witch/sorcerer' and ability to shapeshift. The area thing would be a DF thing to apply to all, and the differences otherwise would be local faith applied directly to said being(s) vs over general belief in the species as a whole. Each one is potentially a junior godling.
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Id be careful on that. "Skinwalker" is a term that is widely used but also very diverse in its application. Just because another myth gets translated to "Skinwalker" wouldnt be enough on it's own to equate them with Naagloshii in my book. Many Skinwalker usages Ive seen, for example, are basically just (usually evil) shapeshifters. The Dresden TV show had a "Skinwalker" that was mostly just a shapeshifter with a Buffalo Bill fetish.
The elements Id look for to equate with a Naagloshii are shapeshifting and/or innate Magic, the whole Power Via Fear thing, the "Intellectus for Torture" Ability, the presence of both Native/divine versions and the Trained Ex-Human ones, and also the part where they are Anchored to a particular geographic location and loose power if they leave.
Q - I'd agree with this, if you were looking for Naagloshii that are named something different in different cultures. However the term "skinwalker" could easily apply to lots of other beings.
Pretty much anything that can change it's shape and is "evil" would suffice.
Why is a Naagloshii even called a skinwalker. Did Shagnasty ever try to imitate anyone else and "walk in their skin" like the one in the TV series?
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Q - I'd agree with this, if you were looking for Naagloshii that are named something different in different cultures. However the term "skinwalker" could easily apply to lots of other beings.
Pretty much anything that can change it's shape and is "evil" would suffice.
I really dont think so; "shapeshifter" applies to lots of different ones, and so you could take the literal translation of the Naagloshii (lit."by means of it, [he or she] goes on all fours".). But "Skinwalker" isnt used anywhere else but for the native american For our purposes I'd point to this WOJ and suggest we ignore that. We already have 5 different flavors of Werewolf, we dont need to lump them all into a larger shapeshifter category, and certainly shouldnt expect the navajo Skinwalker to be in any way related (necessarily) by virtue of a fluid form alone. Otherwise suddenly the Alpha's and LTW and a wide swath of Fae are all "Skinwalkers."
And beyond that, there are a whole bunch of relatively unique traits to the Naagloshii that are not at all related to changing forms. Not to mention that Shaggy was oddly bad at shapeshifting (in that it always maintains some cosmetic elements like it's yellow fur).
I see it as akin to the age-old nerd debate of the differences between Vampires, Zombies, and Mummies; all are undead, but the first has specific Blood fetish, while the last has specific (usually Egyptian) religious and cultural overtones. Skinwalkers are the Mummies of the Shapeshifter world
But all that being said, Ner-taxonomy is a hell of a rabbit hole that we may not want to chase too long, for sanity's sake
though in mythology a skinwalker is a human who can take animal shape
In mainstream Western academic mythology, which was mostly established at a time when everyone automatically assumed that the Native Americans couldn't possibly have had anything original in their mythos, (and when Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show was drawing big crowds by claiming to present the "true" West) yes, a skinwalker is the same thing as a European gothic-witch/werewolf. :D
I'd advise anyone to at least read something that was written by someone who /talked/ to a Native American at some point, though. :) Preferably one of the Dine', though it is not a matter of open discussion among the tribes, even today.
They aren't the same. They share some similar capabilities, but they are not at /all/ the same. 8)
Jim
Why is a Naagloshii even called a skinwalker. Did Shagnasty ever try to imitate anyone else and "walk in their skin" like the one in the TV series?
"Skinwalker" is the traditional translation of the actual mythological Naagloshii (yee naaldlooshii), which is a Navajo/Dine tradition.
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Okay .... I can buy that.
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With the theme of being vulnerable to your own energy, could goodman grey be a threat to a skinwalker?
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With the theme of being vulnerable to your own energy, could goodman grey be a threat to a skinwalker?
How about his direct blood relation? Off the wall one here, Grey is Shagnasties son? I have no real reason to think that but it'd be damn ironic and I am sure one way or another they'll both be back.
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In the DFverse Bob says something to the effect of there being skinwalkers like dudes who can shapeshift, and Skinwalkers the Real Deal.
Lots of cultures have generalized shape shifters in their cultures, things that can morph into all manner of beasts and imitate other people. That's common enough. I don't think the term "Skinwalker" specifically comes up anywhere, but some one thinks any other culture in the world uses a similar term, I'd be willing to accept even loose translations.
Something that has been mentioned at least three time in the DF so far are the Rakshasa. These are similar to the Naagloshii, but distinct enough in their mythology to assume that they are entirely different creatures.
So there certainly are other Shapeshifting baddies in the DFverse, and we'll *definitely* see at least one more in the Rakshasa. It's been mentioned too many times to not be used.
Regarding the earlier conversation about the various types of immortality, I'd like to point out the Super Ghouls in the Raith Deeps. They were all shot to pieces, and could reasonably be called "dead", but Dresden watched them get better.
I'm pretty sure that that scene is pretty much the prime example of what happens when certain types of Immortal creatures get damaged, compared to little i immortal creatures. Just like death is a spectrum, so too must immortality be a spectrum.
To answer the OP, I don't think there are very many things that can act like the Swords, or at least I hope not, because that would cheapen them. Nearly every culture has a legendary weapon or two though, and I don't mind that since *something* has to allow a vanilla human to be a heroic champion.
I'm of the opinion that the Athame might be powerful on it's own now, but that's not the most important thing. If Mab and Titania are Morgana/Morgause, or vice versa, then that would mean that the Athame is a powerful object that is tied to one of the Queens. So, given what we know about how personal connections can be used against a being, I'd think that Lea might have had something with a direct metaphysical line to Mab or Titania.
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I always wondered if demon reach can be used against those linked to the inmates. So using the skinwalkers as an example, it would allow their scions, apprentices and those linked to their power to be messed with. They could be pecieved as echoes or shadows of true skinwalkers. Possibly not killed outright but definitly weakened in some form.
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I always wondered if demon reach can be used against those linked to the inmates. So using the skinwalkers as an example, it would allow their scions, apprentices and those linked to their power to be messed with. They could be pecieved as echoes or shadows of true skinwalkers. Possibly not killed outright but definitly weakened in some form.
There's no way to know, but if I was the Warden, I'd be afraid to try unless I had very good reason to think it would work. My fear would be that doing so might act sort of like breaking a magic circle, if there was even a chance such an action might open up a way for one of those prisoners to escape...
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To answer the OP, I don't think there are very many things that can act like the Swords, or at least I hope not, because that would cheapen them. Nearly every culture has a legendary weapon or two though, and I don't mind that since *something* has to allow a vanilla human to be a heroic champion.
So, I wonder if our modern day nukes are our Legendary weapons. They are pretty badass.
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So, I wonder if our modern day nukes are our Legendary weapons. They are pretty badass.
Some have argued that nuclear waste are our cursed weapons.
You should not have come here.
This is not a place of honor. No great deed is commemorated here. Nothing of value is here.
What is here is dangerous and repulsive.
We considered ourselves a powerful culture. We harnessed the hidden fire, and used it for our own purposes.
Then we saw the fire could burn within living things, unnoticed until it destroyed them.
And we were afraid.
We built great tombs to hold the fire for one hundred thousand years, after which it would no longer kill.
If this place is opened, the fire will not be isolated from the world, and we will have failed to protect you.
Leave this place and never come back.
From, of all things, a My Little Pony fanfiction story (https://www.fimfiction.net/story/42409/1/the-writing-on-the-wall/the-writing-on-the-wall). A more nuanced real world article is here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2015/04/17/talking-to-the-future-hey-theres-nuclear-waste-buried-here/#48216e172fef (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2015/04/17/talking-to-the-future-hey-theres-nuclear-waste-buried-here/#48216e172fef)
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There's no way to know, but if I was the Warden, I'd be afraid to try unless I had very good reason to think it would work. My fear would be that doing so might act sort of like breaking a magic circle, if there was even a chance such an action might open up a way for one of those prisoners to escape...
Yeah, I'm pretty much of the opinion to let the Well just be, and kind of forget it's even there. Try to forget that you can even let them free, or that they are even there. Some things are too dangerous to even think about.
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Yeah, I'm pretty much of the opinion to let the Well just be, and kind of forget it's even there. Try to forget that you can even let them free, or that they are even there. Some things are too dangerous to even think about.
Lets consider Hollywood as a collection of Cautionary Tales and ask, is it really ever a good idea to release a Prisoner to throw at a bigger enemy that you cannot handle yourself? Lets assume that none of the Well's inmates were Wrongly imprisoned or are now miraculously Reformed, and avoid those Tragic Protagonist tropes.
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Well, there is Eddie Murphy's 48-hours.
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Well, there is Eddie Murphy's 48-hours.
That would fall into the aforementioned Reformed Convict Category.
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That would fall into the aforementioned Reformed Convict Category.
He was HARDLY reformed. LOL
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He was HARDLY reformed. LOL
He was always a Good Guy, thus for the purposes of this comparison he was either Reformed after incarceration or Wrongfully Imprisoned in the first place 8)
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Well, I'm not sure about being a good guy, but he was funny.
;)
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Well, I'm not sure about being a good guy, but he was funny.
;)
As "Good" as any Pirate protagonist out there. I doubt you'll find any Noble Thieves in DR, though
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As "Good" as any Pirate protagonist out there. I doubt you'll find any Noble Thieves in DR, though
I could not agree more.
With the possible exception of the British prisoner. Maybe it's John Cleese?
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I could not agree more.
With the possible exception of the British prisoner. Maybe it's John Cleese?
Thought about that, but by said Brit's own description Id say Nope, he Belongs there (for some Reason)
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HA!!
Sounds just like Cleese.