These arent primary characters at all, they arent going to get the sort of stage-time that it would take for their own arcs. Their purpose is embody and illustrate their opposing viewpoints, so that the young and sheltered MC who was raised on storybooks can get a look (on of several throughout) that the world is far more complex than he realized and that ideologies can be entirely opposed without one being "Good" and the other "Evil". So while I want the two characters, their opposing viewpoints and debates, to be the vehicle of this and so want them to be living examples of the opposing ideologies, I need their philosophic arguments to be robust enough stand entirely on their own, ideally enough so that the debates end in stalemate. Which is where Im running into trouble, Im not naturally schizophrenic enough to argue with myself to that kind of impasse.Give me an example. I'm pretty good at looking at both sides of things, to the point I've argued for something enough to convince people of it, only to then argue against it and unconvince them. (Which is as obnoxious as it sounds (
I'll admit, I'm confused. You've already listed the "common ground", which is that "both are honorable and selfless." Under any conflict, if they share these two virtues, they'll find commonality. You have to have one of them not possess one of these virtues to have any real difference. Otherwise you've just got two characters that are going to do the same thing in most scenarios.Harry and Marcone anyone?
Harry and Marcone anyone?Marcone isn't selfless, nor is he honorable. At best, he's compensatory and proportionate.
Marcone is Lawful and a fair amount of the way into Evil; Harry, whatever he may like to think, is Chaotic as all get-out.I'm not sure Harry would dispute that. He'd only argue that he's chaotic not by nature, but by necessity.
Marcone isn't selfless, nor is he honorable. At best, he's compensatory and proportionate.He's at least of proportionate Honor too though, to that of a tiger's sense of Honor of course lol. But he does have some, as with his new cohort Mab. Also completely ruthless, but that doesn't mean he'll intentionally do someone dirty under his own code. A code, any relavent to your actions code can be considered one's 'honor', look at Klingons and their skewed sense of it. Only one who seemed to get it right was Worf and he seemed very influenced by earth sensibilities in the same area, tempered by it. Marcone is tempered by the frost instead.
He's at least of proportionate Honor too though, to that of a tiger's sense of Honor of course lol. But he does have some, as with his new cohort Mab. Also completely ruthless, but that doesn't mean he'll intentionally do someone dirty under his own code. A code, any relavent to your actions code can be considered one's 'honor', look at Klingons and their skewed sense of it. Only one who seemed to get it right was Worf and he seemed very influenced by earth sensibilities in the same area, tempered by it. Marcone is tempered by the frost instead.Personally I think you're confusing "honor" with "keeping one's word", but it's a common parallel, so I get where you're coming from. But I don't think they're the same in his case.
I'm not sure Harry would dispute that. He'd only argue that he's chaotic not by nature, but by necessity.
Harry embraces following his heart as a guide to doing what's right, and reacting to what is immediately in front of him, as modes of making moral choices. He may well think he is doing the necessary thing, but his rejection of thinking through longer-term consequences and endeavouring to do things that will have better results overall when that cuts against what feels obviously right to him at the moment, and tendency to pretty much always think anyone who does think that way must be doing it for personal benefit, is getting good and evil tangled up in a classic Order/Chaos distinction, and as I understand it taking that position counts as a free-willed action in DV terms.I'd imagine there are plenty of people that don't consider the consequences of their actions, nor do they consider considering them. But they'd presumably still have free will.
Hey, does DV free will come with the moral meta-obligation to examine and assess how one makes moral decisions and change one's nature accordingly, or should I just go back to hiding in my room for another year ?
I'd imagine there are plenty of people that don't consider the consequences of their actions, nor do they consider considering them. But they'd presumably still have free will.
How does it impact an individual's free will if they consider the responsibility associated with their actions after the actions have occurred instead of prior to the act?I'm talking about pre-action contemplation. Just being a member of society and playing by its rules requires one to give up a measure of free will. The more knowledgeable you are of the consequences, the more you are restrained.
I'd query that "presumably", because it doesn't feel logical to me to count a non-considered action that comes direct from someone's character, personality, the sort of thing than in the DV is entities following their nature, as being an act of free will.That would seem to be the epitome of free will. Doing what you want, when you want, regardless of the consequences, is free will. Doing what you have to, either to conform to standards, or avoid consequences, is a restraint of personal desire, and therefore free will.
I would say that the free will exists even if the choice being made is the necessary or demanded option.Tell that to the Fallen of the Dresdenverse. They were required to do what was necessary and demanded of them. But they only got one chance to exert free will.
Personally I think you're confusing "honor" with "keeping one's word", but it's a common parallel, so I get where you're coming from. But I don't think they're the same in his case.He never promised to pull Harry out of the water at the end of DM, choose to. Societally his mindset matches Bushido's basis. He holds himself to his own standard, that, that's a sense of honor. Perhaps your confusing Honor with goodness?(lotsa samurai were complete assholes fyi, knights too. They had the entitlement to it from their position of 'honor') Not letting kids get hurt in his area of control? That's a matter of honor that has nothing to do with any proclamation except perhaps one he made to his employee's regarding the matter. It wasn't his word that drove him though, it was his honor that drove him to give it.
He never promised to pull Harry out of the water at the end of DM, choose to. Societally his mindset matches Bushido's basis. He holds himself to his own standard, that, that's a sense of honor. Perhaps your confusing Honor with goodness?(lotsa samurai were complete assholes fyi, knights too. They had the entitlement to it from their position of 'honor') Not letting kids get hurt in his area of control? That's a matter of honor that has nothing to do with any proclamation except perhaps one he made to his employee's regarding the matter. It wasn't his word that drove him though, it was his honor that drove him to give it.I go on the actual definition of the word, rather than commonly assumed generalizations.
But if you have a specific generalization of honor your thinking of? Cause I could probably show the parallels, my sense of it has directly to do with the warriors who originally formulated the idea though.
I go on the actual definition of the word, rather than commonly assumed generalizations.1 He has an excellent reputation amongst both supernatural and his government contacts. Your thinking of what we know of him directly and through law enforcement which isn't reputation at large. His reputation precedes him certainly
Definition of honor
1 : good name or public esteem : reputation Nope
2 : privilege i.e. had the honor of joining the captain for dinner. Nope
3 : a person of superior standing —now used especially as a title for a holder of high office if Your Honor please. Nope
4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : credit an honor to the profession. Nope
5 : the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon. Nope
6 : an evidence or symbol of distinction. Nope
7 : chastity, purity. Nope
8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity. Nope
Dictionary.com1he absolutely believes in his own actions. He has that kernel of certainty he gained from his dark secret. Driving belief..
honor
[on-er]
noun
1) honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. Nope
2) a source of credit or distinction. Nope
3) high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: Nope
4) such respect manifested, i.e. a memorial in honor of the dead. Nope
5) high public esteem; fame; glory. Nope
6) the privilege of being associated with or receiving a favor from a respected person, group, organization, etc. Nope
Which synonyms of honor are applicable to him?There that's your problem, you believe Honor to be something to be given or bestowed by another. Except a very narrow definition it isn't. However you can't say NOBODY gives those things to him deserving or not. Lots of deference, distinction and what's better described as 'awe'.
probity, uprightness, deference, homage; reverence, veneration, distinction, esteem, venerate. None of them
Marcone is not honorable; he's not worthy of honor.
He believes in equivalency. He keeps his word. He does not betray his partners or allies. He has a few positive qualities that are wrapped around a ruthless drive to control everything and everyone. He's a warlord. Perhaps the best of warlords, but a warlord non the less. He has a personal code of honor. But that only means he's not a savage.Hold on i'll go find my copy of Bushido when I can. There's a really big reason Marcone is described by Nic as a good king(and it's mostly because modern people have idea chaff, excesses of thought applied to one thoughtform until it's true meaning is lost, like the word libera... ahh, nvm) and it's not because he's up for sainthood soon or because Nic is just as 'evil'.
The sense of Honor, implying a vivid consciousness of personal[1] dignity and worth....1 Honor is a personal state, betimes dictated by societal standards tis true. Note though it says conscious not conscience. Marcone has proven able to make Willfull conscious decisions and otherwise spite in the eye of destiny. Perhaps a person of Honor and a person whose in a state of constant 'hereness' and ergo change/consciousness(as opposed to those emboldened to their emotions and other whimsy) are to be considered the same? Certainly conscious awareness would give constant ability to maintain proper decorum in the face of adversity of any sort... and... Murphy is a great example of the opposite when
Though the word ordinarily given nowdays as the translation of honor was not used freely, yet the idea was conveyed by terms such as Na(name), men-moku(countenance), Guai-bun(outside hearing) reminds us respectively of the biblical use of "Name", of the evolution of the term personality from the Greek mask, and of "fame". A good name-ones reputation, the immortal part of our self,[2] what remains bestial-assumed as a matter of course, any infringement upon it's integrity was felt as shame[3]....
The fear of disgrace was so great that if our literature lacks such eloquence as Shakespeare puts in the mouth of Norfolk, it nevertheless hung like Damocles[4] sword over the head of every samurai.
What Marcone says he is going to do; he does. What he does; he does with a committed purpose. Plus, he has a tendency to be protective of children. He is a warlord; but, that still makes him better than many of the people I have to deal with. :)Funnily enough, as Samurai's greatest point in history was the warring states period, the very next passage in the subsection on Honor gives attribute to the views of 3 of the most notorious(but none were considered dishonorable however) in a literary epigram,
In Judiasm, which believed in a jealous God, or in Greek mythology, which provided a Nemesis, vengeance may be left to superhuman agencies; but common sense furnished Bushido with the institution of redress as a kind of ethical court of equity, where people could take cases not to be judged in accordance with ordinary law.You know, stuff like Wereguild and Bloodmoney, personal revenge, ect. Stuff Marcone does.