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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: MoroccoMole on March 21, 2016, 07:07:22 PM
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So I was reading GroinKick's thread on previous wardens ( http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,47345.0.html ) and remembered this from Cold Days:
“Hey, how come you called me Warden?” I asked. “I mean, I’ve been a Warden, but there are a lot of other guys who are better at it than me. I’m not exactly the poster child.” “WARDEN,” Demonreach said. “NOW THERE ARE MANY. FIRST THERE WAS ONE.”
Who are these people?! Don't they care that there's a noob on the island?
Why doesn't Harry ask who they are? He's creating a sanctuary for himself, shouldn't he care about who has keys to it? He doesn't mention anything about it in Skin Game in his, "After the year I've had here, I could stop that Outsider incursion of last year before my morning coffee" bit.
If Eb, the GateKeeper, and Listens all know about this, and i think they do because they all kind of react the same way, then i think it's possible that they could be wardens and were letting the Noob do a trial by fire with the whole Outsiders' incursion. Risky & frightening, but a true test of a warden. Or, and this to me is even scarier, Eb, the GateKeeper and Listens aren't wardens and just know about the nature of the island. Then if there are other wardens besides Harry, they either don't care about their responibilities, or have grown so much that they think that DR and the inherent risks are beneath their concern.
~M
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Hey could you say where DR says that? I don't remember it. The first thought that jumped into my mind is that Alfred doesn't really know what death is, and so there could be a lot of Wardens who have died, but to Alfred they are still Wardens. On the other hand maybe there are other Wardens walking around. Good topic to go over.
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I thought he meant that the term "Warden" used to refer to the White Council police force is a nod to the position of DR's Warden. That once upon a time DR's Warden was the head of the White Council's police force. Or something like that. But DR was always something of a secret, so people didn't realize that. And the origin of "the Wardens" was lost to the memory of all but a few senior wizards... and DR itself.
At the time, I remember speculating that Harry's role as DR's Warden comes with some official status and/or responsibilities in the White Council (something adjunct like the Blackstaff, and similarly not something most wizards know about) -- something that could come up during Peace Talks, perhaps, and make Harry's life more complicated.
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Page 154 on my kindle version. It's right as Harry is finishing his first descent into the well with Bob.
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Yeah, Demonreach is referring to the wardens as the White Council's police force. There's a WoJ floating around that it isn't a coincidence that the warden cloaks are grey and match Alfred's.
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it does not mean there are multiple "Warden" around. there is one Warden, many warden. probably started out with the Warden and when population grew many were sworn in as deputies. they have WCouncil authority but that means nothing to DR. what I would like to know is who was the last Warden and how long ago that was.
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Chapter 17 of Cold Days begins like this:
“I don’t guess this job pays anything, does it?” I asked. The spirit just regarded me. “Didn’t think so,” I said. “So . . . when you call me Warden, you’re speaking literally.” “INDEED.”
Baring seeing the WOJ that Second Aristh is talking about, ( Any help here Serack? ) I have to stick to my guns and say there are multiple wardens and Harry is just one of them. Harry had to stand tall in front of DR and bloody his nose to invoke the site as a sanctum. I can't see some Joe Blow warden just getting "sworn in" to the job.
Also, given all the theories about the origin of the well, such as angelic grace being needed to create this prison, why do the wardens have to be human? By the description of what's in there, in my opinion, some of the things would surpass a even the most powerful mortal's abilities. So maybe the question is not who are the other wardens? But WHAT are the other wardens that they could imprison these crazy badass entities?
~M
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I thought he meant that the term "Warden" used to refer to the White Council police force is a nod to the position of DR's Warden.
That was strongly my interpretation.
Some people might question how the spirit is aware of something off the island like the Council's military force, but I don't find it unreasonable that the information flow through which Harry accesses the island's intellectus might be two-way (i.e. Alfred can access Harry's knowledge of the outside world).
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There's a WoJ floating around that it isn't a coincidence that the warden cloaks are grey and match Alfred's.
Wait, what? His cloak is described as dark green in the end of GS, or just dark in most other appearances. I think Harry would have mentioned if it matched the Warden issue ones.
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there is one warden for the prison and he runs it. DR is a prison and Harry is the Warden, he runs it. it is his island. he has spent a lot of time there w/ DR, if there were more wouldn't DR have told him during his training as warden there recently? with this prison you do not want a lot of people knowing the codes to the gates. so one Warden is the best protection.
there is one Merlin
there is one Blackstaff
there is one Gatekeeper
there is one Warden of DR
Warden was created before the Council I would say since DR predates the Council. he is the Warden and overlooks the prison. the Council comes into being and creates a police force similar and names the Wardens to either aid him or work similarly policing mankind for warlocks.
in CD DR says this to Harry. "you are the Warden." The Warden not A Warden. if there were others he would not be singled out. there is one Warden for a prison. he runs it. DR calls itself the guard and walls. when DR talks about the Well and what can be done concerning it. "not without outside intervention, or your authorization." nothing about anyone else's authority.
SG
Harry again. "..A Wizard of the White Council and The Warden of Demonreach." note the singular the again as Warden not A like when calling himself a Wizard. again talking about DR's defenses. "...defenses that could only be activated by The Warden." again the warden not a warden.
nothing at all hints to multiple warden of DR. everything does hint/ point to there only being one Warden.
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I dont know where it is, but I remember hearing JB say that the Wouncil Wardens are based on the Warden of DR. That is what Alfred was referring to, that there are multiple wizards running around with the title Warden in the Wouncil but it all stemmed from the Warden of DR.
Another way to think if there is more than one is if there were, why isn't there one there at all times to defend it. It is one of the biggest sources of dark energy in North America, home of the biggest, baddest beings known and unknown. And if there were, who would be senior. No, there is just one. It's too big a power to be left in multiple hands. It's like the Blackstaff, it's a power bestowed on someone the Wouncil deems worthy. Unfortunately for them, they never found someone worthy. And unfortunately for the Wouncil and Harry is that now Harry is The Warden.
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I want to know where the original warden cloak and sword are located. The cloaks and sword are based on this guy, so I wonder what the originals are like. I don't think they would be epic artifacts but useful none the less. Seeing as I doubt he would be getting a sword anytime soon. If Harry can enchant his coat, then wardens would definitely enchant their cloaks.
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Warden was created before the Council I would say since DR predates the Council. he is the Warden and overlooks the prison. the Council comes into being and creates a police force similar and names the Wardens to either aid him or work similarly policing mankind for warlocks.
With Merlin creating Demonreach in multiple times, it could be that Demonreach existed centuries before Merlin's relocation of the White Council. But remember that the White Council moved to Edinburgh from Rome. It's older than Merlin and his organizational changes. We don't know when the White Council was created.
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There was originally one wArden, hen there were many. I am wondering if the additional grey cloaks were supposed to support and aid the duties of the main warden. I wonder if this might lead to Harry leading his own gang.
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I think the original warden sword was Amoracchius since Merlin is supposed to have had his hands on it. To the cloak I don't have a clue. Maybe it was not a literal cloak, but a mantle?
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I didn't realize there was a debate about what Alfred said to Harry. Thank you for an interesting early morning read.
I assumed Alfred meant "Once upon a time, the Warden of this island was the only one, (and although other wizards and beings may have helped stick inmates in here), it was solely the Warden's job to see that they stayed in and other people stayed out." Parenthetical statement is purely my inference.
Some other inferences to be made, some are obvious, some are my own, some are in a spirit of playful ridiculousness:
1. The island hasn't had a Warden for a hell of a long time, BUT with wizard lifespans being what they are, it could simply be a "we will get to it eventually" thing.
2. The job (or possibly Mantle) of being the Warden has very specific duties...and at least one perk: You get to be a Bond-villainesque shadowy character with his own island. I have a hard time believing that wouldn't appeal to Harry somewhat.
3. There will be eventually a Braveheart reference with Harry saying "I told you, its MY island."
4. It is easy to see how the Council could extend the Warden idea to the Warden(s) a la kazimmoinuddin's post. Perhaps the Warden of DR had his own SWAT team to hunt down and imprison certain beings. (Let's all try to imagine how, if skinwalkers are in minimum security, how hardcore someone was to imprison the things in the lower levels.)
5. I like the idea of an "original cloak and sword", something Nuccio's swords were based off of perhaps. Maybe Harry finds them. Let's hope it's a rapier or some other type of fencing steel, Harry doesn't seem the broadsword type.
6. Perhaps, if the poster with the multiple Warden of DR theory is correct, Alfred is referring to the British-inflected voice guy Harry found in a crystal.
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I just keep on imagining the warden and his gang of wizards acting sort of like the ghostbusters. Trapping the entities, then binding them into the well. Sort of like ghost traps and ecto containment.
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Concur. The Wardens are the legacy of THE Warden. Just like the Venatorii Umbrorum are the legacy of the actual Hunters of the Oblivion wars. DR only knows of THE WARDEN. It is odd that the security force of the Council is Warden, which is someone who watches over prisoners.
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Knowing that one warden became many, and their original job, to me at least seems the same, to me their is little difference between what a warlock becomes and the things in the well, heck for all we know the things in the well find resonance with the actions of those warlocks and rach out through said connection to influence and try to control or meld with(which would transfer consiuosness not necassarly raw power, though an increased flow seems likely) until they have replaced enough of them that they genuinely believe themselves to be said creature, at which point, perhaps they are?
What I wonder at from that one warden, is the precise significance of the grey cloak, as it has been pointed out as a specific in woj. I have more than a few ideas of course, but would like some neutral feedback.
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What I wonder at from that one warden, is the precise significance of the grey cloak, as it has been pointed out as a specific in woj. I have more than a few ideas of course, but would like some neutral feedback.
Seems likely that it was simple rather than complicated. Black cloaks seems to sinister, but white cloaks are both pretentious and bad camouflage. Other colors might be mistaken for house colors back in yesteryear. Practically speaking, gray is unnoticeable, unassuming, and easy to produce without much fading.
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Seems likely that it was simple rather than complicated. Black cloaks seems to sinister, but white cloaks are both pretentious and bad camouflage. Other colors might be mistaken for house colors back in yesteryear. Practically speaking, gray is unnoticeable, unassuming, and easy to produce without much fading.
then why apply any significance to it?
[Quote from: Someday on April 08, 2009, 06:20:37 AM]
I wonder if it's coincidence that a warden's cloak is grey.
:)
Jim[/quote]
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then why apply any significance to it?
:)
Jim
I'm not really seeing the significance to his response. Was there any more context to the original comment?
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I'm not really seeing the significance to his response. Was there any more context to the original comment?
more or less,
Quote from: jtaylor on April 08, 2009, 05:26:26 AM
First off: the Headaches. I don't think they are a sign of someone mucking around with Harry's head, I think it is a sign of him healing. Harry suffered a great deal of brain damage when Lash burned herself out in White Knight. I think the headaches are a sign of him repairing that damage with his ultra slow regeneration factor.
I agree that with Mouse around I don't see anyone messing with Harry's head. If Mouse reacted the way he did to Molly in this book, no one is getting to Harry while he's around. Headaches as a sign of healing make more sense than the other theories I've read or come up with. Of course, that healing would be set back with the new bumps on his head (big enough to knock a hat off! ouch).
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I was thinking that LTW's adamant commitment to sacrificing one for the good of all was a mind plant from Peabody. Granted, there is evidence that LTW would already be disposed to this position and it seemed that the old guard could not be bent against their own grain even with the aid of the ink. But Peabody would have wanted Morgan (or Luccio--but somebody!) to take the fall ASAP in order to avoid a protracted investigation that might have turned up evidence against the BC (as Harry's did). We saw Peabody in private conversation with LTW while signing paperwork during the investigation. I'm not sure LTW would have been so adamantly committed to that course of action without Peabody.
....On a different note, I thought the conversation about doing necessary things even when they weren't the right things parallelled many of Harry's own former decisions but on a grander more political stage. Sometimes you have to do what's necessary instead of what's right. Harry's done it (e.g. tyrano-Sue). Now he's "growing up" and realizing that politics is based upon doing what's necessary.
The whole series revolves around questions of grey. Most of the grey conversations have involved personal decisions, ethics, morality, etc. and mostly in the area of magic. Personal decisions are always easier to make than political ones. Now the conversation itself has expanded to politics. If politics isn't a grey area, I don't know what is. I liked the discussion about Maggie's "crazy" ideas of justice which sound appealing until Luccio starts to explore the hidden consequences.
I think this will be a fulcrum point for Harry's own growth. We saw him continue to base most of his decisions in TC on "what is right" rather than what is convenient (and when is necessity really just another name for convenience?). Giving up Morgan, even with his backup plan in place, was a gamble and ultimately was based on "what was believed to be necessary". I think we'll see more of this in the following books as Jim explores the grey.
I hope Jim continues to draw out the complexities on both sides. I mean, part of what makes the White Council weak is the fact that it doesn't seem to care at all about justice (or right), just necessity. I understand Luccio's points about those with power not being able to always follow the path of justice but when politics is only a matter of economic calculation w/o concern for justice then it loses its moral weight and people naturally rebel like Harry and Elaine did (though in different ways). I just hope Jim continues to explore the complexities without offering an (over-)simplified solution which would (of necessity!) be really lame.
I wonder if it's coincidence that a warden's cloak is grey.
i just see something about the grey compared to how they use their magic, cloaked by their reasons for doing so... Really makes them the grey wardens... But compared to the warden singular the issue seems... Different, or maybe just more? Besides actually.... Uhh Brain fart on my own question, the warden is grey because in order to do his job he actually must violate the law concerning dominating a being through its name.... Mmm?
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more or less,
i just see something about the grey compared to how they use their magic, cloaked by their reasons for doing so... Really makes them the grey wardens... But compared to the warden singular the issue seems... Different, or maybe just more? Besides actually.... Uhh Brain fart on my own question, the warden is grey because in order to do his job he actually must violate the law concerning dominating a being through its name.... Mmm?
Maybe. I just don't see a deeper meaning or association with it in-universe. While their moral ambiguity makes a good reason for JB to make their cloaks gray, I don't think in-universe they would select that color for that reason.
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Seems likely that it was simple rather than complicated. Black cloaks seems to sinister, but white cloaks are both pretentious and bad camouflage. Other colors might be mistaken for house colors back in yesteryear. Practically speaking, gray is unnoticeable, unassuming, and easy to produce without much fading.
If you turn this around, then the grey cloak becomes significant because of who is wearing it. Not because it is a grey cloak. As an example, the career field I served in while in the military wears a scarlet beret. It is recognizable and significant because of who is wearing it, not because it's a bright red hat.
To use a more extreme example, the swastika is a Sanskrit symbol meaning "lucky or auspicious". But what do you actually think of first when you see one? (Yes, it fits neatly that the Nazi Wehrmacht typically wore grey. Thank you.)
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If you turn this around, then the grey cloak becomes significant because of who is wearing it. Not because it is a grey cloak. As an example, the career field I served in while in the military wears a scarlet beret. It is recognizable and significant because of who is wearing it, not because it's a bright red hat.
To use a more extreme example, the swastika is a Sanskrit symbol meaning "lucky or auspicious". But what do you actually think of first when you see one? (Yes, it fits neatly that the Nazi Wehrmacht typically wore grey. Thank you.)
True. In-universe a gray cloak became a symbol, but I'm not sure that was the intent. When we think about wizards wearing cloaks 1,600 years ago, it doesn't seem significant. I'm sure plenty of people had gray cloaks. Until cloaks went out of fashion, or the wardens made a name for themselves, it still wouldn't be that notable.
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I agree with the others. I am not sure there is any mystical or deep significance to the cloak and the sword wardens wear. I suspect the others are right that the original cloaks were grey to match demonreach (or maybe demonreach is gray to match the cloaks - who knows).
The sword as a distinctive warden identifier seems to be a Luccio invention. She was able to create these really useful swords - so useful that eventually every warden got one. Again - a tradition that just started and went on long enough that it became part of the image of the Wardens.
LOTS of things we do today probably started out as rather arbitrary decisions that everybody copied until it became the WAY IT IS DONE. And often times these arbitrary decisions were not the best decisions long term, but they still stuck. Easy example is the keyboard for typewriters/computers. Original design spaced out the commonly used keys to minimize the chance for the levers to stick. That reason is long gone, but the design is still everywhere. I see grey cloaks and swords as falling into that category.
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Why is everyone convince that Luccio invented the swords? Sure she is the only one able to make them, but that might just be a matter of skill.
These swords not only acted as foci, they allowed the swords act directly against magic, blocking, cutting, parrying, and other sword moves. Since the first law limits what warden can use in a battle, these swords give a great advantage in fighting other magic users while keeping yo the laws. Without these swords, dealing with magic users will be far more complicated, so they are key to warden duties. Such an advantage would explain how the council maintained its control over wizards.
I wonder if Harry could Mccoys warden sword.
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As an example, the career field I served in while in the military wears a scarlet beret. It is recognizable and significant because of who is wearing it, not because it's a bright red hat.
Combat Controller?
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Combat Controller?
No. Amtrak.
Sorry, can't help myself. Yes, I was stupid enough to try out in BMT and then dumb enough to pass Indoc, the rest was inertia. Are you AF, also?
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Closest I came to AF (or any branch) was CAP. But because of that and my uncle being AF, I've got a general interest in AF is all.
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Fair enough. My eyes weren't good enough to be a pilot like my father, so I decided I'd tell the pilots where to drop steel.
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Now the warden sword has been introduced, the council will attempt to retain the use of them. They are just too effective not to.
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Chapter 17 of Cold Days begins like this:
“I don’t guess this job pays anything, does it?” I asked. The spirit just regarded me. “Didn’t think so,” I said. “So . . . when you call me Warden, you’re speaking literally.” “INDEED.”
Baring seeing the WOJ that Second Aristh is talking about, ( Any help here Serack? ) I have to stick to my guns and say there are multiple wardens and Harry is just one of them. Harry had to stand tall in front of DR and bloody his nose to invoke the site as a sanctum. I can't see some Joe Blow warden just getting "sworn in" to the job.
Also, given all the theories about the origin of the well, such as angelic grace being needed to create this prison, why do the wardens have to be human? By the description of what's in there, in my opinion, some of the things would surpass a even the most powerful mortal's abilities. So maybe the question is not who are the other wardens? But WHAT are the other wardens that they could imprison these crazy badass entities?
~M
The WoJ is a trusted forum member's notes from a 2009 signing (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11734.msg538824.html#msg538824).
Q: Can the skinwalker access the NeverNever and use the Ways? If so, why didn’t it?
A: Yes. All I'll say now is that it's important to know that ‘wardens’ wasn’t always plural
Which to me implies that there is only one capital "Warden" especially considering the line in Eb's journal.
As for the cloak WoJ, that's more ambiguous. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11462.msg493821.html#msg493821)
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We know wardens have taken down skin walkers before, so if Harry can access those records he could permanently deal with shagnasty.
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Why is everyone convince that Luccio invented the swords? Sure she is the only one able to make them, but that might just be a matter of skill.
It was specifically stated in one of the books that Luccio was the ONLY person who could make the swords, and that her ability to do so was lost by her body swap at the end of Dead Beat. Since that point, the WC has been unable to make any additional swords. Apparently you needed a special magical trick or ability to make it work and that trick is very rare or perhaps unique to Luccio.
JB did mention that all the big WC leaders have some cheat or special ability that is not shared by other wizards. Perhaps this was one of Luccios.
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She likely has the designs and lore needed to replicate it. There might not be another wizard able to craft it, but what about those dwarfs , who are famed magical craftsmen, they could create and do most of the work to build the sword, allowing a lesser wizard to finish and complet it.
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She likely has the designs and lore needed to replicate it. There might not be another wizard able to craft it, but what about those dwarfs , who are famed magical craftsmen, they could create and do most of the work to build the sword, allowing a lesser wizard to finish and complet it.
Apparently not, because if she did, the younger and newer wardens like Harry would all have swords by now.. Unless of course she really didn't lose the ability but only thinks she did because of Peabody's mind control ink. It is to the enemy's advantage after all if the wardens are less effective because they don't have custom made swords to match their talents.
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while it has been said Luccio might be the only current person that could make Warden blades. i think this could be true. we already know of wizards having differing Talents and Affinities. it could be she had the right combination of them that allowed her to learn from a Tome or Book the Lore to craft them.
what i find interesting is that the WCouncil is basically stagnating itself, possibly destroying major Talents. the way they run itself is so old school and behind the times for our current population and growth. the Warlocks they have killed and were basically innocent or minor offenders but still caused an infraction and died/ were executed. imagine if they were carriers of some rare Talents, or combinations of Talent and Affinity. this is why i so wish the Paranet is absorbed into the WCouncil. to find these newbs before they Warlock-out.
Talent= supernatural skill. like Harry's Listening, or his ability to Artifice and craft is close to it.
Affinity= natural link to an Elemental nature. like Harry's to fire.
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Knowing that one warden became many, and their original job, to me at least seems the same, to me their is little difference between what a warlock becomes and the things in the well, heck for all we know the things in the well find resonance with the actions of those warlocks and rach out through said connection to influence and try to control or meld with(which would transfer consiuosness not necassarly raw power, though an increased flow seems likely) until they have replaced enough of them that they genuinely believe themselves to be said creature, at which point, perhaps they are?
What I wonder at from that one warden, is the precise significance of the grey cloak, as it has been pointed out as a specific in woj. I have more than a few ideas of course, but would like some neutral feedback.
"As bad as the monsters are, humans can do worse", or something to that effect. The basic difference between warlock & THINGS is scale. Is argle-bargle-monster really that different from crazed cursing Korean kid? My theory is all this goes back to humans becoming dominant and various past flavors of monster-hunting groups.
Old days: The Warden has to go out and take down big bad monsters. The monsters are too something to destroy, hence DR. And comparatively few of them - unless anyone has better numbers, I'm assuming a few thousand, caught and penned over time.
New days: Damaged humans are the monsters. A lot more of them, but much less powerful. So you need a group of less-badass wardens to take over, and you don't have to bother with prison anymore.
Allow maybe half a millenium, and most people won't remember DR.
Associations of gray: Goodman Gray, I think "He Who Dances around Mac's place" had a wrap of strips of gray cloth, the gray council, halfway on the spectrum of White Council, Gray Cloak, and Black Staff. Maaaybe the blood repelling property is relevant - the Warden has more resistance to prisoners' weird brain-hurting powers, and similar?
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While each wizard has there own style, any piece of magic one can do, other wizards can create their own version. All wizards can create something akin to a staff. The swords are a type of combat foci that can double as an actual physical weapon that are designed to act against magic.
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So I was reading GroinKick's thread on previous wardens ( http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,47345.0.html ) and remembered this from Cold Days:
“Hey, how come you called me Warden?” I asked. “I mean, I’ve been a Warden, but there are a lot of other guys who are better at it than me. I’m not exactly the poster child.” “WARDEN,” Demonreach said. “NOW THERE ARE MANY. FIRST THERE WAS ONE.”
Who are these people?! Don't they care that there's a noob on the island?
Why doesn't Harry ask who they are? He's creating a sanctuary for himself, shouldn't he care about who has keys to it? He doesn't mention anything about it in Skin Game in his, "After the year I've had here, I could stop that Outsider incursion of last year before my morning coffee" bit.
If Eb, the GateKeeper, and Listens all know about this, and i think they do because they all kind of react the same way, then i think it's possible that they could be wardens and were letting the Noob do a trial by fire with the whole Outsiders' incursion. Risky & frightening, but a true test of a warden. Or, and this to me is even scarier, Eb, the GateKeeper and Listens aren't wardens and just know about the nature of the island. Then if there are other wardens besides Harry, they either don't care about their responibilities, or have grown so much that they think that DR and the inherent risks are beneath their concern.
~M
Hmmm...
after re-reading the whole scene for full context... I'm not sure DR's reference to "many" vs "one" is definitively about Wardens or even wardens in general. DR has an odd way idea/information association. Its job is to imprison nasty stuff. He is "beholden" to the Warden. Perhaps its conceptual association was triggered by the term "warden" and it was then referring to its primary task - which would refer to thinks in the prison... first there was one, now there are many.
Basically he's telling the Warden, we've got a large prison population. That could end up being a disturbing thought... any time a warden gets told "we got a lotta prisoners" its usually a prelude to "too many prisoners" and some sort of catastrophe, usually involving riots and attempts at mass breakouts, etc.
Maybe that was DR's way of trying to warn Harry that the whole thing is about to pop?
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First, thanks Serack for the WOJ.
Lawgiver, I like this, and looking at it again, just in terms of language and punctuation, it seems that DR was addressing Harry as "Warden", then giving him information, "things are getting interesting around here". This works a lot better for me.
~M
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Which to me implies that there is only one capital "Warden" especially considering the line in Eb's journal.
As for the cloak WoJ, that's more ambiguous. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11462.msg493821.html#msg493821)
To me, that WoJ implies that there are non-human guardians acting as wardens of Demonreach on the never never side. That is something I hadn't considered before and something that Harry should investigate, like, yesterday.
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To me, that WoJ implies that there are non-human guardians acting as wardens of Demonreach on the never never side. That is something I hadn't considered before and something that Harry should investigate, like, yesterday.
It is my opinion that when Harry descends down all those steps and enters the chamber down at the bottom, he has gone down the rabbit hole and in most respects *is* on the NN side of Demonreach.
I say in most respects because Demonreach was created and exists on a dimensional level that Harry has a hard time experiencing, so when he's down there his experience is kinda skimming the surface of a pond of what is actually there NN wise without necessarily getting wet.
I haven't followed this conversation closely, but let me share a little more of my opinion of who and what a capital "W" Warden is and why it is significant. As with most of my theorizing over the past few years, this is heavily influenced by my concepts of overall DF cosmology (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,41981.0.html), and the mortal experience's position in and influence over that cosmology.
The entirety of the Demonreach construct was created on and exists on a level that spans more than just Harry's individual reality and timeline. It is immense and powerful and enduring and ... Lithic. What do I mean by "Lithic?" It exists as is and is non-introspective and unchanging in its purpose, function, and resolve.
But on the Demonreach level of the big picture, the fabric of Reality has a degree of malleability, and the driver and medium of this malleability is mortals and their free will. For Demonreach to function on this malleable level of existence, it needs a malleability engine of its own. A Warden capital W, with free will who can make decisions that encompass aspects of its purpose that require more malleability, dynamism and introspection than it possesses on its own as a Lithic construct.
It is possible that Demonreach's existence is wide enough that it interfaces with more than one discrete "Capital W Warden" across multiple discrete realities and timelines on the level Harry experiences in such a way that from Harry's and thus our perspective, these interactions happen relatively "simultaneously" and individually. However, I think it is more likely that from the Demonreach perspective, these malleability engines are less discrete and are more of a reality spanning singularity like itself. Sort of.
Which is a really long and arduous way of saying that in my theories there is only one capital "W" DR Warden.
Edit: I'd like to add that I'm really proud of the two analogies of Harry experiences in the NN being like skimming a pond without getting wet (not getting the full depth of the experience, only an aspect of it), and Warden Harry's free will being an "malleability Engine" for the overall Demonreach construct.
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It is my opinion that when Harry descends down all those steps and enters the chamber down at the bottom, he has gone down the rabbit hole and in most respects *is* on the NN side of Demonreach.
I say in most respects because Demonreach was created and exists on a dimensional level that Harry has a hard time experiencing, so when he's down there his experience is kinda skimming the surface of a pond of what is actually there NN wise without necessarily getting wet.
I haven't followed this conversation closely, but let me share a little more of my opinion of who and what a capital "W" Warden is and why it is significant. As with most of my theorizing over the past few years, this is heavily influenced by my concepts of overall DF cosmology (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,41981.0.html), and the mortal experience's position in and influence over that cosmology.
The entirety of the Demonreach construct was created on and exists on a level that spans more than just Harry's individual reality and timeline. It is immense and powerful and enduring and ... Lithic. What do I mean by "Lithic?" It exists as is and is non-introspective and unchanging in its purpose, function, and resolve.
But on the Demonreach level of the big picture, the fabric of Reality has a degree of malleability, and the driver and medium of this malleability is mortals and their free will. For Demonreach to function on this malleable level of existence, it needs a malleability engine of its own. A Warden capital W, with free will who can make decisions that encompass aspects of its purpose that require more malleability, dynamism and introspection than it possesses on its own as a Lithic construct.
It is possible that Demonreach's existence is wide enough that it interfaces with more than one discrete "Capital W Warden" across multiple discrete realities and timelines on the level Harry experiences in such a way that from Harry's and thus our perspective, these interactions happen relatively "simultaneously" and individually. However, I think it is more likely that from the Demonreach perspective, these malleability engines are less discrete and are more of a reality spanning singularity like itself. Sort of.
Which is a really long and arduous way of saying that in my theories there is only one capital "W" DR Warden.
Edit: I'd like to add that I'm really proud of the two analogies of Harry experiences in the NN being like skimming a pond without getting wet (not getting the full depth of the experience, only an aspect of it), and Warden Harry's free will being an "malleability Engine" for the overall Demonreach construct.
Interesting concept. Let me see if can simplify it a little? This will probably be a bad analogy but.. what the heck.
DR is a tool; a rather sophisticated one, but a tool nonetheless. It has no "free will" and therefore cannot take many actions independently. It has a certain amount/number of "preprogrammed" functions it can perform, but operation of other possible functions beyond those is out of its control.
Let's say DR is like a chainsaw. This tool cannot determine when to cut, how fast to cut, how deep to cut, etc. It takes a Lumberjack to use it properly. The capital L signifies a free willed individual, not the preprogrammed operations already set up. Any monkey can pick up a chainsaw and cut wood... it takes a Lumberjack, someone knowledgeable and skilled in the use of that tool, to make carvings of horses or castles out of lumber.
Given DR's extremely sensitively dangerous nature, "There can be only one" when it comes to Wardens (as opposed to wardens).
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When I was considering my theory post during my car drive to work, I was considering the tool/craftsman analogy as well. One of the sticking points though was that Demonreach the tool is so much vaster than something that can be wielded by a craftsman.
It appears to have actions it can take (mostly passive) without free will, and it appears to be on a higher level of existence than the "craftsman/Warden."
Perhaps a better analogy than a tool/craftsman would be an Unmanned Arial Vehicle drone surveillance/weapon system platform and it's operator. I was an enlisted Army Intelligence operator a little over a decade ago when UAVs were just starting to get pushed out to the line units (I literally got out 2 months after my Division got theirs {non weaponized} delivered, and those were disseminated to the brigade level), and I was heavily involved in the command's training involving how these systems were utilized. These are complex systems and there were many aspects of their operation that are automated, not unlike Demonreach. Although I doubt it happens regularly because people like to have their hands on these types of things, and in doing so can generally get higher value intel out of them, my experiences back then implied that these things could do surveillance missions completely automated. However, when it comes time to pull the trigger on one with a weapons system, you better believe there is a person doing the actual operation.
Apparently there is an aspect of this discussion that I didn't address. It seems evident that long ago, among the community of Wizards, there was a "Warden" singular who was responsible for Demonreach. Since that day, the actual duty has apparently fallen into general obscurity, yet in the mean time, the community of Wizards has had a need for militant enforcers of the Laws of Magic, and that body collectively and individually bares the same name. How the Demonreach "Warden" and the enforcer "warden" came to share the same name is lost to us the reader, but it seems Demonreach is aware of the connection, as he acknowledges it. However, since Harry wore the grey cloak for years before he became Demonreach's Warden, and we have seen "wardens" do battle on Demonreach without having similar connections to the island, the meaning and significance of the two terms seem to have become severed from each other.
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wonder if the Circle up top that Harry uses to summon Mab was involved. suppose that is part of it's use. summon the being and than entrap them. maybe the last few Warden have not been top rate and it fell to a grp to take up the policing but on a smaller level.
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wonder if the Circle up top that Harry uses to summon Mab was involved. suppose that is part of it's use. summon the being and than entrap them.
That has been a theory i've thrown around before, and I am a big fan of it. One of the questions I had about the prison overall is who was badass enough to actually get all those creatures to Demonreach and trap them there, since the Island itself cannot go out and actively do it. That is where the Warden probably comes in as well. Merlin was badass but even he couldnt routinely whistle up dark gods and subdue them. But that circle, by far the most impressive empowered circle we have heard about in the DV, would go a long way to helping a Warden trap things.
I even pictured a theoretical future scene (for fun) where Harry summons Chauncy (sp) using the circle of beauty and threatening to lock him up forever if he doesnt give out the information Harry needs about his mom. Then Chauncy getting all lippy so Harry throws him in crystal with a very satisfying and spiteful ease and being like "neeeeeeext". Kinda like the scene in Firefly where Malcolm tries to give back the money he got for doing the train job when he refused to do the job and kicks the minion into Serenity's engine intake. The next guy is VERY willing to take Mal's offer after seeing that.
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While they could summon, the powerful entities potentially ignore the summons. The power of the island, and the darkness of the power, could be enough force and affinity allow for no summon to be unanswered. It is one thing for a creature to be summoned, it is another for them to be bound. So once brought to the island, the island and warden would be forced to fight. Admitted on the island, the warden has access to great power, but fighting well worth beings will allays be tricky.
If summoned, would they only be brought to the surface or into the well? It does not seem secure to bring an unbound prisoner into the cell block.
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While they could summon, the powerful entities potentially ignore the summons. The power of the island, and the darkness of the power, could be enough force and affinity allow for no summon to be unanswered. It is one thing for a creature to be summoned, it is another for them to be bound. So once brought to the island, the island and warden would be forced to fight. Admitted on the island, the warden has access to great power, but fighting well worth beings will allays be tricky.
If summoned, would they only be brought to the surface or into the well? It does not seem secure to bring an unbound prisoner into the cell block.
Having the proper bait to get the beings to the island is probably that tricky part. As for binding the creature once its there. Demonreach apparently had the power to grab and bind a (more or less) full-powered Mab once she was physically standing on the island. DR has some chops. Of course the beings worth imprisoning on the island will have a lot of power too, and will definitely fight back. But Demonreach's power in such a conflict would be so much greater than Harry's that he would probably factor very little into the fight. IIRC correctly, Harry said something to the effect of wanting to be somewhere over the horizon if DR started swinging in earnest against an enemy.
Unless he had a Name to work with, or something. Or, maybe there is something in the islands architecture that we dont know about for such a fight, like weaponizing the stones from the cottage that repelled shagnasty. The real question is whether or not we will ever actually get to see such a fight. I really really hope so :).
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It seems evident that long ago, among the community of Wizards, there was a "Warden" singular who was responsible for Demonreach. Since that day, the actual duty has apparently fallen into general obscurity, yet in the mean time, the community of Wizards has had a need for militant enforcers of the Laws of Magic, and that body collectively and individually bares the same name. How the Demonreach "Warden" and the enforcer "warden" came to share the same name is lost to us the reader, but it seems Demonreach is aware of the connection, as he acknowledges it...
I find it interesting that such an important facet of WC history is "lost" or "fallen into general obscurity"...
Wizards live much longer than mortals, so their tendency to lose information over time should be commensurately reduced.
The "average" mortal life expectancy (even when factoring in regional fluctuations) is currently around 75-ish years, with high end outliers at a century or more.
Wizardly "top end outliers" seem to be about 400 years (Ancient Mai and any like her). If the ratio above holds with Wizards of the "average" being at roughly 3/4ths of the top end... then Wizards should have an average life expectancy of about 300 years -- right about at 4x as long as mortals.
Merlin created DR (put the multi-temporal aspect aside for now). Arthurian Lore - including Merlin - occurred somewhere in the 250A.D. to 500A.D. timeframe. That's ~1500 years ago. For mortals that would be more than 20 generations, but for Wizards it's only about 5 to 6.
5 - 6 mortal generations would be roughly the time of the American Revolution or shortly afterwards.
Why would Wizards, notorious information gathers and hoarders, "forget" something like DR - or anything about it. We haven't forgotten big events from the Revolutionary period.
Seems to me that someone's hiding information about this - which, of course, Wizards are also known for. Rashid and Eb both seemed shocked and a little disturbed when they found Harry had done a Sanctum Invocation there... I presume they were aware of DR - what it is for, etc. - and of what Harry had actually done...
Maybe it's only Senior Council who knows... "need to know only" and all that...
I'm more of the opinion that instead of "losing" knowledge re DR, they've deliberately separated themselves from it for some odd reason. There hasn't been a singular Warden in a long time because they haven't wanted there to be.
I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop... but I think the idea might have some merit... I just don't have any good data to base it on.
/sigh
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I'm of the belief that what we see of Demonreach is only the tip of the iceberg in this time, this reality. I don't believe Merlin created it all but placed his enchantments on a pre-existing construct. Perhaps some manner of this prison already existed and Merlin with the help of some greater powers linked a mortal gateway to this existing construct. The Demonreach we perceive only exists in some subset of timelines, and realities.
I once and maybe still do believe Demonreach is realities belly button. Its placement on Earth is what makes Earth the center of the universe for the inside outside war, at least for the subset of realities that are germane to our story. There is a woj that suggests that in some realities Earth isn't the center point for the war but another place in the universe is. For those realities, I believe a similar belly button exists at those priority locations.
So, in summary, when some "God" created the dresdenverse there was something resembling a umbilical cord where the wall between inside and outside was the thinnest. Its at those locations in the metaverse that things become 'wierd'.
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I find it interesting that such an important facet of WC history is "lost" or "fallen into general obscurity"...
Wizards live much longer than mortals, so their tendency to lose information over time should be commensurately reduced.
The "average" mortal life expectancy (even when factoring in regional fluctuations) is currently around 75-ish years, with high end outliers at a century or more.
Wizardly "top end outliers" seem to be about 400 years (Ancient Mai and any like her). If the ratio above holds with Wizards of the "average" being at roughly 3/4ths of the top end... then Wizards should have an average life expectancy of about 300 years -- right about at 4x as long as mortals.
Merlin created DR (put the multi-temporal aspect aside for now). Arthurian Lore - including Merlin - occurred somewhere in the 250A.D. to 500A.D. timeframe. That's ~1500 years ago. For mortals that would be more than 20 generations, but for Wizards it's only about 5 to 6.
5 - 6 mortal generations would be roughly the time of the American Revolution or shortly afterwards.
Why would Wizards, notorious information gathers and hoarders, "forget" something like DR - or anything about it. We haven't forgotten big events from the Revolutionary period.
Seems to me that someone's hiding information about this - which, of course, Wizards are also known for. Rashid and Eb both seemed shocked and a little disturbed when they found Harry had done a Sanctum Invocation there... I presume they were aware of DR - what it is for, etc. - and of what Harry had actually done...
Maybe it's only Senior Council who knows... "need to know only" and all that...
I'm more of the opinion that instead of "losing" knowledge re DR, they've deliberately separated themselves from it for some odd reason. There hasn't been a singular Warden in a long time because they haven't wanted there to be.
I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop... but I think the idea might have some merit... I just don't have any good data to base it on.
/sigh
Jim has made this (the highlighted point) before. Also, Rashid was almost a contemporary with the original Merlin (due to NN time distortion I believe, he has been around the longest, but isn't necessarily the oldest). Don't forget that information about the island seems to spontaneously disappear from official vanilla data bases, although it is possible there is some White Council or other body conspiring to see that this happens. So yah, this is a need to know thing, that is likely very hush, hush otherwise, or at least the Warden position might be.
Minor Cold Case info: There is a snippet in Cold Case where we find out there is some, generally widely wizardly known information that Harry is totally ignorant of because it is customarily only discussed at the tail end of the established apprenticeship program and he skipped the apprenticeship program all together.
So it is really tough for us to gage how much of this is generally unknown, and how much is widely known, but is unknown to Harry and thus to us. It could be that everybody knows that the "warden's" legacy is that there originally was "one" Warden, and the organization came to be to emulate the original or something, but since Harry is such an untrusted, uneducated outsider, he was ignorant of that, and had to be told by Demonreach. Jim is kind of limited in how information is disseminated to us the readers, and this isn't helped by the fact that some of this information is deliberately being held from us until the appropriate time (if ever) for dramatic effects.
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My only question about the whole thing is... why would the WC separate itself from DR? Going from a single Warden, with all the power/potential DR represents, to multiple wardens of far lesser potential (though greater range of influence/activity) seems like a very important step. I can hardly image what exigencies prompted them to it.
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My only question about the whole thing is... why would the WC separate itself from DR? Going from a single Warden, with all the power/potential DR represents, to multiple wardens of far lesser potential (though greater range of influence/activity) seems like a very important step. I can hardly image what exigencies prompted them to it.
I see the reason as two fold.- The DR Warden mantle is so Oh S***! powerful and dangerous that the leadership on the council probably prefers to see it left vacant unless there is some dire need otherwise. Merlin seemed to have gone rather ape when he took it up after all.
- Judging by what some more informed people said to Harry before he got the full job description, it's not likely a fully informed and sane person would take up the position voluntarily.
The Gatekeeper's comments about "a bit of questionable attention from the Fates," as well as some of Jim's comments about the Blackstaff being chosen based off of who is willing to put up with the horrible ethical nightmares it comes with imply to me that filling these enigmatic Capitalized White Council positions is problematic.
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I see the reason as two fold.- The DR Warden mantle is so Oh S***! powerful and dangerous that the leadership on the council probably prefers to see it left vacant unless there is some dire need otherwise. Merlin seemed to have gone rather ape when he took it up after all.
- Judging by what some more informed people said to Harry before he got the full job description, it's not likely a fully informed and sane person would take up the position voluntarily.
The Gatekeeper's comments about "a bit of questionable attention from the Fates," as well as some of Jim's comments about the Blackstaff being chosen based off of who is willing to put up with the horrible ethical nightmares it comes with imply to me that filling these enigmatic Capitalized White Council positions is problematic.
I always got the feeling that the White Council sort of gets the powerful and secret wizard positions (Gatekeeper, Blackstaff, Warden of the Well) chosen for them for multiple reasons.
1) they require unique and uniquely powerful wizards.
2) the White Council hides their existence from its own members so most prospects are those who either stumble upon the positions or seek them out against the will of the White Council.
3) greater powers tend to get involved (the Fates, whoever maneuvered Harry to the island, etc.)
4) the types of wizards crazy enough to willingly take on these roles are not likely to be yes men or strictly uphold White Council doctrine.
If I had to guess I would say that probably nearly as many people had strokes when Eb took up the Blackstaff as did when Harry took up the mantle of the Warden of the Well.
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It might be easier to take down known monsters for the island. We know it has contained 6 skinwalkers, do using the knowledge of how to deal with, make it easier to capture others. The presence of others already, might even ease the summoning and binding of more.
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I always got the feeling that the White Council sort of gets the powerful and secret wizard positions (Gatekeeper, Blackstaff, Warden of the Well) chosen for them for multiple reasons.
1) they require unique and uniquely powerful wizards.
2) the White Council hides their existence from its own members so most prospects are those who either stumble upon the positions or seek them out against the will of the White Council.
3) greater powers tend to get involved (the Fates, whoever maneuvered Harry to the island, etc.)
4) the types of wizards crazy enough to willingly take on these roles are not likely to be yes men or strictly uphold White Council doctrine.
If I had to guess I would say that probably nearly as many people had strokes when Eb took up the Blackstaff as did when Harry took up the mantle of the Warden of the Well.
Side note: is the WC fully aware of what Harry did or still just rashid eb and listens to wind?
I like the idea that they just blunder into these positions or are forced to actively seek them.
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Side note: is the WC fully aware of what Harry did or still just rashid be and listens to wind?
I like the idea that they just blunder into these positions or are forced to actively seek them.
The Senior Council is aware that Harry claimed the island since three of them were there during the battle during Turn Coat. It was clear that Ancient Mai did not know about the Well or Harry being the Warden (she just thought that Harry claimed some dark island), Listen's to Wind never indicates one way or another if he knows the island's true purpose and Eb's journal entry makes its clear that both Eb and Rashid know the true purpose of the island and implies that Langtry knows as well.
Vadderung says that the Grey Council members who showed up at Chichen Itza were aware of the island's purpose and that they knew that Harry was the Warden of the Well.
Knowledge of the island's true purpose seems to take 'need to know' to an entirely different level. :)
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But are they all or just those that were there?
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It is never made clear.
I got the impression that the wizards who were present at CI composed the vast majority of the wizards who know that Harry is the Warden of Demonreach.
My guess is that maybe half of the Senior Council (3 or 4 wizards) plus another half dozen senior wizards who are in the Grey Council.
Less than a dozen wizards total.
The two highest ranking wardens (Luccio and Morgan) don't appear to have known the truth about the island. So if half the Senior Council and the leaders of the wardens don't even know then it must be one hell of a secret.
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I always got the feeling that the White Council sort of gets the powerful and secret wizard positions (Gatekeeper, Blackstaff, Warden of the Well) chosen for them for multiple reasons.
1) they require unique and uniquely powerful wizards.
2) the White Council hides their existence from its own members so most prospects are those who either stumble upon the positions or seek them out against the will of the White Council.
3) greater powers tend to get involved (the Fates, whoever maneuvered Harry to the island, etc.)
4) the types of wizards crazy enough to willingly take on these roles are not likely to be yes men or strictly uphold White Council doctrine.
If I had to guess I would say that probably nearly as many people had strokes when Eb took up the Blackstaff as did when Harry took up the mantle of the Warden of the Well.
Good list. I'm most interested in #2. It's an axiom that power rests best in hands that do not want it. Those that want it are far more likely to abuse it. I'd not be surprised if Rashid and Eb got their positions "by accident", meaning they did not seek them out, rather had it thrust upon them, so to speak. The same seems to hold for Harry and DR.
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Good list. I'm most interested in #2. It's an axiom that power rests best in hands that do not want it. Those that want it are far more likely to abuse it. I'd not be surprised if Rashid and Eb got their positions "by accident", meaning they did not seek them out, rather had it thrust upon them, so to speak. The same seems to hold for Harry and DR.
I agree.
The same could be said to have happened with Harry and the Swords and Harry and the relics from Hade's vault.
It seems as though once you attract the attention of the greater Powers you either get squashed flat or you get co-opted in some fashion by them. Guys like Eb, Rashid and Harry are the rare ones who both caught the attentions of those beings and managed to survive it.
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Interesting thought I just had: If part of DR exists in the never never, would Harry's intellectus of the place carry over? Because that kind of knowledge about the never never, wherever it is, could be a really neat thing to experiment with.
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Interesting thought I just had: If part of DR exists in the never never, would Harry's intellectus of the place carry over? Because that kind of knowledge about the never never, wherever it is, could be a really neat thing to experiment with.
Ohhhhh. Very interesting indeed.
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Interesting thought I just had: If part of DR exists in the never never, would Harry's intellectus of the place carry over? Because that kind of knowledge about the never never, wherever it is, could be a really neat thing to experiment with.
Hmm... interesting... though I've had the impression (for no particular reason I can cite) that when Harry is "below the island" where the "cells" are located that he's more in a "pocket dimension" rather than some general "place" in the NN - sort like Agatha Hagglethorn's personal demesne.
It would make sense to have very limited access - if DR doesn't let you in you don't get there. It prevents "breakout" attempts because there's no way to "tunnel" in from elsewhere, etc.
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Hmm... interesting... though I've had the impression (for no particular reason I can cite) that when Harry is "below the island" where the "cells" are located that he's more in a "pocket dimension" rather than some general "place" in the NN - sort like Agatha Hagglethorn's personal demesne.
It would make sense to have very limited access - if DR doesn't let you in you don't get there. It prevents "breakout" attempts because there's no way to "tunnel" in from elsewhere, etc.
But even her pocket dimension was technically a part of the never never.
But the main thing I was thinking was that he could gain all kinds of knowledge of ways and things. We know there are ways onto the island, the traitor and one other shadowy person took on to the island in TC. If he can figure out the way to some of the places DR touches that would be really useful to him.
But that is just a start. If he were able to get some creatures to the DR part of the never never, he could learn a massive amount of information about them, potentially. Or maybe some information on the nature of the never never itself. The spirit realm is a tricksy place and he would have an even bigger advantage with his intellectus there than he gets here. And itd be just plain fun :).
Im inclined to think that it is not partially in the never never, if for no other reason than it would be just one more way into the prison. Prisons with a lot of entrances and exits arent as secure.
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Seeing as the island was a huge magical construction, would it not make sense for the creator to have built the never never side as well? There is potential places that reflect the well, like the underworld specificly tarturus. An aspect of the well could be formed to link and bind it, to empower and secure. I can imagine something like the lighthouse or the cottage of the island, intruding onto those reflections.
Look at what a body jumping necromancer and a spirit of intellect was able to build for never never defenses. If the well is so epic, imagine that magic used to construct their one bit of e never never.
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Seeing as the island was a huge magical construction, would it not make sense for the creator to have built the never never side as well? There is potential places that reflect the well, like the underworld specificly tarturus. An aspect of the well could be formed to link and bind it, to empower and secure. I can imagine something like the lighthouse or the cottage of the island, intruding onto those reflections.
Look at what a body jumping necromancer and a spirit of intellect was able to build for never never defenses. If the well is so epic, imagine that magic used to construct their one bit of e never never.
I think it is a chicken and egg kind of thing.
Possibility A: You build the place, and it will become linked to parts of the never never that are sympathetic to it's nature. Then, you go there and build up the defenses to suit your liking. B: You figure out a way to link what you are building to a specific point in the never never and build on both sides at the same time. C: Use the act of creating the physical place to forge out a pocket of the never never that will be linked to it, and build your defenses in the pocket after or during physical construction.
I dont think it really matters which one is correct.
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Because of the way thing link to real world the nature of what is constructed could/probably would change the link in the NN. I.e. You build a maximum security prison for super natural beings on this side it would inherently link to a prison/military structure on the other.
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My only question about the whole thing is... why would the WC separate itself from DR? Going from a single Warden, with all the power/potential DR represents, to multiple wardens of far lesser potential (though greater range of influence/activity) seems like a very important step. I can hardly image what exigencies prompted them to it.
This one seems pretty easy to me. We know that DR has a very strong negative effect on anyone who steps onto the island. And it’s almost instant. If the WC is as paranoid about wizards going warlock, they would most likely not want a powerful wizard camping out on that island for any length of time, since the island’s presence would eventually drive em insane and probably turn em warlock – a very powerful warlock since this wouldn’t be the sort of position you give to apprentices.
“But,” you say, “Harry gets along just fine with it.” Yes he does, but he did something no one else ever did – he performed a sanctum invocation there. That’s what allows him to sleep peacefully on the island and not dream of very bad things. Rashid was positively dumbfounded that Harry would try something like that on the island. His shocked astonishment says to me that no one ever tried it before, therefore it is not something any of the prior Wardens did. If such a procedure was the standard first task of a new Warden, Rashid would have reacted much differently (more along the lines of “wow – figured that one out all on your own did you?”). His shock that it was even possible speaks volumes.
My guess is that it was a vacant role for a very long time since the White Council either couldn’t get anyone to accept the role, or the ones that did went full-Sith in a hurry. But I’m also guessing that one was able to hide his warlockry from the WC and function as Warden for a chunk of time. I base this on the ruins of the town. The tower was obviously put in place as part of the original construction. The town, however, is much more recent. It takes considerable time and manpower to build a town, even a small industrial town. All of the people required to build it, maintain it, and such, would have been on the island, for a while. Michael Carpenter, as insulated from badness as he is, can barely stand to set foot on the island, so how would a bunch of laborers, carpenters, plumbers, manager types, fishermen, etc be able to stay on the island as long as was necessary to construct the town? The only way I can see that happening is a former DR Warden went all spooky side, but managed to hide it from the WC. He was able to enthrall a large group of mortals to come to the island to set up his little fiefdom, but they eventually succumbed to the competing pressures of their thralldom and DRs “go away field” and turned psychotically insane. The WC would have had to show up, execute the Warden for being a warlock, and with the rest of the surviving population hopelessly insane, probably mercy killed them as well. If Michael is so affected, it seems impossible that a bunch of vanilla mortals would have been able to settle on the island long enough to get an industry up and running without help. I can’t think of another situation where that many people would be able to hold out on the island for that long.
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Interesting thought I just had: If part of DR exists in the never never, would Harry's intellectus of the place carry over? Because that kind of knowledge about the never never, wherever it is, could be a really neat thing to experiment with.
i do not think so. DR is a spirit of the land and loci of our reality. i do not see it being linked to the NN.
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Intellect us is a huge advantage on the island, so it would make sense for there to be something equivalent on the other side. Especially if it was artificially formed as part of the island. So it could be pretty epic. Evil bob created something akin to the beaches of Normandy, demonreach will be so much greater.
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We have all made a grave assumption here, and that is that like the gate keeper and black staff, the Warden is a position of the WC. Harry mentions in TC as he sets up the sanctum spell that they are rare, Eb even mentions that there are few locii then on top of that few wizards are capable of performing a sanctum. Rashid's shock may come more from the fact that Harry succeeded rather than knowing what was done. What if the island is one of those things lost to the histories?
Then later Harry informs Eb, who takes it to the gray council. (I'm a little hazy on the order of Eb's journal reading and the rest of the activities) after all it wasn't until after TC that Harry even knows the full purpose.
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So the wardens are the enforcement aspect of the council, the senior council is the leadership, we know that the wizards are distinguished by the magics they specialize in. I wonder if there is a ranking or list of those wizards with powerful responsibilities. A secret ranking is a an already exclusive group.