ParanetOnline
Other Jimness => Cinder Spires Spoilers => Topic started by: knnn on December 09, 2015, 08:54:58 PM
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We've been told that a Shroud is able to disperse the energy blasts fired by ethereal canons, but I wonder how well they would put up against traditional (i.e. metal cannonball) weapons. After all, we know that ether-silk passes through the shroud without problem, and the fact the you can feel wind when diving means that air can pass through as well.
P.S. In our world, bronze cannons were still in use into the 19th century (it was more "springy" than cast iron), so iron rot isn't really an argument.
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We've been told that a Shroud is able to disperse the energy blasts fired by ethereal canons, but I wonder how well they would put up against traditional (i.e. metal cannonball) weapons. After all, we know that ether-silk passes through the shroud without problem, and the fact the you can feel wind when diving means that air can pass through as well.
P.S. In our world, bronze cannons were still in use into the 19th century (it was more "springy" than cast iron), so iron rot isn't really an argument.
Wood cannons werent unheard of either, they just broke down more often (and in a catastrophic way). I imagine that the Shroud would be unable to stop a physical cannon any more than the silk vests can stop traditional bullets. But I think the feasibility of cannons drops off sharply when the vessels are no longer locked onto the same plane of elevation, so between the three dimensional nature of airship combat, combined with their superior maneuverability would make them useless in all but very specific ambush circumstances. Perhaps hiding in the noon-day sun and attempting to fire/drop physical masses onto a ship below?
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The shroud doesn't seem to hamper the aeronauts moving on the ship, so I would guess that it doesn't do much if anything to physical projectiles. I don't think a shroud is just a shell of energy, more like a powerful field of etheric energy being emitted from the core crystal.
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Wood cannons werent unheard of either, they just broke down more often (and in a catastrophic way). I imagine that the Shroud would be unable to stop a physical cannon any more than the silk vests can stop traditional bullets. But I think the feasibility of cannons drops off sharply when the vessels are no longer locked onto the same plane of elevation, so between the three dimensional nature of airship combat, combined with their superior maneuverability would make them useless in all but very specific ambush circumstances. Perhaps hiding in the noon-day sun and attempting to fire/drop physical masses onto a ship below?
1) Didn't the first encounter between the Predator and the merchant ship/Itasca occur at equal elevations? IIRC they actually pulled out of their dive (i.e. slowed down) in order to shoot their cannons. In any case, you'd think such things would at least be the spire itself (e.g. on the roof and at Habble Landing).
2) This also doesn't preclude things like rifles/bows raking the enemy decks.
3) Heck, what about ramming tactics? It seems to me that the protection offered by a shroud could allow a ship to get very close. A Predator "dropping like a rock" with a bronze ram could really do damage. Heck, you needn't ram the ship itself. Merely hitting the top/bottom masts could do wonders toward wounding a ship.
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Is there any evidence that they have gunpowder? I can't bring any to mind. They would have to have access to volcanic hotsprings to get the sulfur or certain caves for the saltpeter. The charcoal is easily to obtain, if horrifically expensive.
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Is there any evidence that they have gunpowder? I can't bring any to mind. They would have to have access to volcanic hotsprings to get the sulfur or certain caves for the saltpeter. The charcoal is easily to obtain, if horrifically expensive.
Yeah, they have gunpowder. Grimm comments more than once about practicing with a firearm when he's planning on taking down Cavendish. It's not common based on the life of the gun barrel, but idk about the gunpowder itself.
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So here's a random question:
Why doesn't he the shroud dissipate the energy of your own guns?
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So here's a random question:
Why doesn't he the shroud dissipate the energy of your own guns?
Preddy doesnt want it to? :P
Actually, thats a really good question. Perhaps it's a matter of "tuning" like the old star trek shields, and by having both the guns and shroud sourced in the same Core, they operate on the same frequency and can pass through? Just spittballing...
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Due to ships able to rise and fall so much, canon would difficult to aim. If they develop gun turrets able to be adjusted, those could be set up.
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Due to ships able to rise and fall so much, canon would difficult to aim. If they develop gun turrets able to be adjusted, those could be set up.
Shouldnt be too hard. Those sorts of cannons usually had a screw tilt that was used for range adjustment, all it takes is a crank mechanism to make it a swift adjustment. And that sort of thing would be just as useful (and perhaps as common) for the etheric cannons as for a physical one, Id wager.
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Can they make homing canon shots? So they just need it going in the right direction.
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Can they make homing canon shots? So they just need it going in the right direction.
Hmmm, I dont /think/ so. That would imply a crystal with lateral thrust capabilities, which seems to not exist.
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Hmmm, I dont /think/ so. That would imply a crystal with lateral thrust capabilities, which seems to not exist.
Not for airships anyway. Etherealists seem to be able to make crystals float around in any direction they want.
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Not for airships anyway. Etherealists seem to be able to make crystals float around in any direction they want.
Excellent point.
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They can alter their fields of attraction and repulsion.
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Due to ships able to rise and fall so much, canon would difficult to aim. If they develop gun turrets able to be adjusted, those could be set up.
They might be slightly more difficult to aim... but I'm not sure if that difference is substantial enough to invalidate the idea.
From what little we have seen, the airships are closer to their namesake naval capital ships than dogfighting fighters. They can vary altitudes but they aren't turning on a dime or rising at ridiculous speeds. Ships (and their guns) appear to need a reasonably close proximity to their target which means that cannons might very well be an interesting 1-2 punch. Use the ethereal cannons to force the opposing ship into a position and then put a half dozen 12lb cannon balls into it's side.
The key value add of the ethereal cannons seems to be the sheer destructive power of them. Normal cannons are basically just heavy balls of metal (though exploding ones do exist)... E-cannons appear to be more along the lines of high-explosive shells that cause massive damage on a penetrating hit.
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The key value add of the ethereal cannons seems to be the sheer destructive power of them. Normal cannons are basically just heavy balls of metal (though exploding ones do exist)... E-cannons appear to be more along the lines of high-explosive shells that cause massive damage on a penetrating hit.
But if normal cannons can shoot through the shroud then that is a significant advantage in itself, and you would expect a few of them on a warship, alongside all the e-cannons.
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But if normal cannons can shoot through the shroud then that is a significant advantage in itself, and you would expect a few of them on a warship, alongside all the e-cannons.
The cost of getting that much metal together compared to the amount of damage a metal cannonball can do may be a limiting factor. It would seem like physical cannons would have the same drawbacks that Grimm described with using traditional firearms.
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The cost of getting that much metal together compared to the amount of damage a metal cannonball can do may be a limiting factor. It would seem like physical cannons would have the same drawbacks that Grimm described with using traditional firearms.
And yet Grimm is in fact carrying around a pistol. Seems to indicate he thinks it's worth it despite the prevalence of gauntlets.
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And yet Grimm is in fact carrying around a pistol. Seems to indicate he thinks it's worth it despite the prevalence of gauntlets.
True, but he keeps pointing out the long lists of drawbacks. He doesn't typically keep it on him anyway. He keeps it in his cabin on the Predator when etherealists aren't in the mix.
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And one of the drawbacks he pointed out was that gunpowder corrodes the barrel, making catastrophic failure more and more likely the more times you use it. He had to replace the barrel of his gun multiple times just while learning how to use it. A cannon is basically all barrel, so you'd only get a few uses out of it before you had to replace it, or risk it exploding and killing your crew members. It's very likely just not worth the expense and risk, when there are techniques to getting past a shroud using much more reliable and long-lasting e-cannons.
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And one of the drawbacks he pointed out was that gunpowder corrodes the barrel, making catastrophic failure more and more likely the more times you use it. He had to replace the barrel of his gun multiple times just while learning how to use it. A cannon is basically all barrel, so you'd only get a few uses out of it before you had to replace it, or risk it exploding and killing your crew members. It's very likely just not worth the expense and risk, when there are techniques to getting past a shroud using much more reliable and long-lasting e-cannons.
Historically canons were made out of bronze (less brittle than iron). That would be a solution both the canon and pistol.
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Try the bar further below ;)
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I have been thinking of the shroud like a magnetic field, but an etheric field. It stops etheric energy from passing through, which is why you wouldn't pull your webbing inside the shroud. The webbing runs up/down/out the masts, beyond the radius of the shroud, and then spread out in the currents both air and ether. Once charged, the web interacts with etheric current, more strongly the more it is charged. Sails would be protected by the shroud though and, since the wind would also get through, would function. And yes dropping rocks or other projectiles would definitely get through the shroud.
IMO The real issue, as far as cannons go, is the potential differences between firepowder and gunpowder. In TAW it's firepowder which is so corrosive to the gun barrel, which could also make an exploding cannon ball a very volatile proposition. Old school muskets would have plenty of gunpowder left over in the barrel after firing a shot. If that is what is destroying the barrel, I wouldn't want a bunch of those rolling around in the belly of my ship. All the major advantages of an exploding cannonball would be drawback if firepowder is unstable and/or corrosive. (I keep picturing that old MacGyver oil rig fire episode with the nitroglycerin leaking out of the old dynamite.)
Ether is abundant and cannon crystals/bolts exist, so why risk blowing yourself up? This isn't our earth, basic chemistry is different. Maybe mineral deposits are super rare, too. Gunpowder, iron, tin for bronze, all of these have mining at the core of them; which could be a very dangerous game on a planet where all the wildlife is already dangerous before it is maddened by your blood. Just imagine the moles.