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Other Jimness => Cinder Spires Books => Topic started by: wrangler on October 22, 2015, 01:53:33 AM

Title: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 22, 2015, 01:53:33 AM
So how do sails propel these airships, since there's no "wind" within an air mass?

Perhaps it's revealed later?  I just started this book.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Rygar on October 23, 2015, 01:16:12 PM
There is another type of energy, etheric energy, that also flows about the world in currents.  The ship has sails, called a Web, that when powered catch this energy and propel the ship forward.  Some craft also utilize traditional wind sails as a backup propulsion method.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 23, 2015, 04:07:35 PM
I've now finished the book.  The canvas sails to catch "wind" don't make sense.

Apparently this is a fundamental misunderstanding of air movement on the author's part.  It's illustrated further by a character explaining that an airship felt a "crosswind" at one point.  While you would expect to feel any abrupt change in air direction or speed momentarily, you don't feel a steady "crosswind".

Once you've got something floating in the air, it moves with the air.  For example, stick your hand out of the basket under a balloon as you move across the ground, and you'll feel still air.  The concept of "wind" relates to a frame of reference anchored against the air movement, such as a ground-based observer, or a boat in the water.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 23, 2015, 04:21:14 PM
I've now finished the book.  The canvas sails to catch "wind" don't make sense.

Apparently this is a fundamental misunderstanding of air movement on the author's part.  It's illustrated further by a character explaining that an airship felt a "crosswind" at one point.  While you would expect to feel any abrupt change in air direction or speed momentarily, you don't feel a steady "crosswind".

Once you've got something floating in the air, it moves with the air.  For example, stick your hand out of the basket under a balloon as you move across the ground, and you'll feel still air.  The concept of "wind" relates to a frame of reference anchored against the air movement, such as a ground-based observer, or a boat in the water.
There are at least three different types of locomotion used by the airships.  Etheric Webs are the most common and are what are usually in use in the novels these are self-propelling and operate based on principle of Etheric energy which I havent completely worked out yet.  Wind sails are used as a backup system or when stealth is preferred, but have the noted difference of being less free in movement because you have to care about wind direction and speed, etc. where you do not with Etheric webs.  Steam turbines are also used as a backup to the primary etheric systems, but are big and dangerous and loud (I think they mentioned they are favored by larger ships for that reason) but can also be used for short-term boosts when used alongside the primary etheric system.

What do you mean when you say there is no wind within an airmass, in the context of the spires?
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 23, 2015, 06:42:57 PM
For example:
When you're standing on the ground, and the air moves by at 10mph, that's a wind of 10mph.  When you launch in a balloon, that "wind" will take your balloon along at 10mph.  So the air's moving at 10mph across the ground, and so are you and your balloon.  There's no difference in the speed of your balloon and the air mass surrounding it.  You can stick out your hand and not feel a breeze.  You can hang out a sail, and it will hang limp.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 23, 2015, 06:58:23 PM
For example:
When you're standing on the ground, and the air moves by at 10mph, that's a wind of 10mph.  When you launch in a balloon, that "wind" will take your balloon along at 10mph.  So the air's moving at 10mph across the ground, and so are you and your balloon.  There's no difference in the speed of your balloon and the air mass surrounding it.  You can stick out your hand and not feel a breeze.  You can hang out a sail, and it will hang limp.
Ah, ok sure.  But that only applies when the air/wind is both the motive force and the supporting media, as in hot air ballon or similar, which is not the case on these types of ether-powered airships, or even traditional sailboats.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 23, 2015, 06:59:59 PM
To expand on Quantus' response, this only happens when you are going at the exact velocity of the wind.  This is generally true of hot air balloons, because of the large surface size of the ballon compared to the basket and because the circular shape means it can only go in the direction of the wind.   

However, on a ship with multiple sails (like the Predator) this is definetly *not* going to be the case.  If the ship was only capable going in the direction of the wind, it would be impossible to manouver.  Instead, you "tack to the wind", angling the sails so you capture only the parts of the wind you want.  And any time you're not going exactly in the direction of the wind you will feel a breeze.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 23, 2015, 07:20:31 PM
Ah, ok sure.  But that only applies when the air/wind is both the motive force and the supporting media, as in hot air ballon or similar, which is not the case on these types of ether-powered airships, or even traditional sailboats.
The book mentions using wind instead of ether or engines.  Deploying a sail when under power would simply add drag and slow the airship; there's no "wind" to utilize for additional motive force.  The only perceptible air motion is equal and opposite to the direction of travel, and a sail would oppose that.  When you're free of the surface, you're moving along with the air.

Sailboats, as I pointed out, can use wind, since they are not free of the surface.  That doesn't apply to airships.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 23, 2015, 07:24:12 PM
The book mentions using wind instead of ether or engines.  Deploying a sail when under power would simply add drag and slow the airship; there's no "wind" to utilize for additional motive force.  The only perceptible air motion is equal and opposite to the direction of travel, and a sail would oppose that.  When you're free of the surface, you're moving along with the air.

Sailboats, as I pointed out, can use wind, since they are not free of the surface.  That doesn't apply to airships.
I think there were two types of sail.  One was the silk weaver material that caught ether wind (not air wind) and propelled it on those waves.  The other sails were wind sails, which were backup propulsion that they had no real control over.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 23, 2015, 07:25:20 PM
The book mentions using wind instead of ether or engines.  Deploying a sail when under power would simply add drag and slow the airship;

In fact, while they get the sail ready, they only ever use the sails when not under power.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 23, 2015, 07:30:13 PM
To expand on Quantus' response, this only happens when you are going at the exact velocity of the wind.
As do all aircraft, unless another force is applied; surface area, etc., don't matter.  Once you leave the surface, and are in the air, you're moving with that air.  And when you add power (or force), the only air motion relative to the aircraft is due to the aircraft motion because of that power (or force).  A sail wouldn't help an airship under power any more that it would help an airplane.  You'll note that sails have never been used on dirigibles or blimps.  They won't work.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 23, 2015, 07:36:17 PM
As do all aircraft, unless another force is applied; surface area, etc., don't matter.  Once you leave the surface, and are in the air, you're moving with that air.  And when you add power (or force), the only air motion relative to the aircraft is due to the aircraft motion because of that power (or force).  A sail wouldn't help an airship under power any more that it would help an airplane.  You'll note that sails have never been used on dirigibles or blimps.  They won't work.

And how do you explain the ability of powerless hand gliders to manouver? 

Edit:  To explain, it's the constant slight downward movement of the glider that allows the airflow to create some of the lift, allowing you to manouver.  A ship like the Predator could fluctuate between slight negative boyancy and slight positive boyancy (using the crystals) and use things like airfoils to change direction.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 23, 2015, 07:47:49 PM
And how do you explain the ability of powerless hand gliders to manouver?
The force of gravity will pull a glider "downhill", resulting in airflow over the wing and tail.  Control surfaces on the wing and tail will change their airfoil shape slightly, changing lift and drag, causing changes in pitch, yaw, and roll.

I used the term "force" in my earlier post with gravity and gliders in mind.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 23, 2015, 07:50:30 PM
The force of gravity will pull a glider "downhill", resulting in airflow over the wing and tail.  Control surfaces on the wing and tail will change their airfoil shape slightly, changing lift and drag, causing changes in pitch, yaw, and roll.

I used the term "force" in my earlier post with gravity and gliders in mind.

That's what I was suggesting above (notice my edits).  That the Predator create a slight negative/positive boyancy (with the crystals), allowing the sails to act as airfoils.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 23, 2015, 10:00:55 PM
That's what I was suggesting above (notice my edits).  That the Predator create a slight negative/positive boyancy (with the crystals), allowing the sails to act as airfoils.
As I pointed out, there's no "wind" for the sails.  Any research you do will usually refer to balloons as "moving with the wind", because it takes another force to move them.

Perhaps the FAA's Balloon Flying Handbook: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/media/FAA-H-8083-11.pdf
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 23, 2015, 10:10:33 PM
Edit:  To explain, it's the constant slight downward movement of the glider that allows the airflow to create some of the lift, allowing you to manouver.  A ship like the Predator could fluctuate between slight negative boyancy and slight positive boyancy (using the crystals) and use things like airfoils to change direction.
The flight of a glider is more than "slight downward movement".  It's sufficient to generate enough airflow over the wing to cause enough lift for flight.

Using the crystals for vertical movement would move the airship up or down through the air mass.  Sticking things out the side to create drag would certainly then be able to maneuver the airship using the airflow created during that vertical movement.  It would also slow the airship somewhat with that drag.  But if you've got working crystals, you can use them to maneuver without adding drag.  But the sails are not adding propulsion.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 23, 2015, 10:17:39 PM
Coupling vs. aerodynamics. Think of the main body of the ship: wood and such. Dense things that don't tend to be moved easily by wind and whose main contribution to the body's physics is largely in their inertia; i.e., the coupling coefficient is very low. Even with a lot of sails deployed and flying with the wind, the airship will never be able to move at the precise speed of the surrounding air mass. Ergo, there will be a significantly perceptible "wind." More so when balancing crystal-fed etheric force against the sails to be able to tack; there *will* be a crosswind in that case.

And don't forget that airflow is almost never a perfectly smooth laminar force; there will always be turbulence, interacting air currents and the like.

You did very well to point out that on-water sailing relies largely on the difference between the media, but it doesn't depend entirely on that particular difference. Greatly, yes (see the multiple mentions in the text about how most airship captains deplore using the wind and instead prefer to use etheric propulsion exclusively; if you stop to wonder why, you see why "greatly" ≠ "only"), but never entirely. And it's that gap that allows these airships to sail...and produces wind that the crew can feel.

TL;DR version: Throw a grocery bag in the air when there's significant wind. It moves with the air mass. Ergo, propulsion, and not quite at the speed of that air mass.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 23, 2015, 11:47:36 PM
Coupling vs. aerodynamics. Think of the main body of the ship: wood and such. Dense things that don't tend to be moved easily by wind and whose main contribution to the body's physics is largely in their inertia; i.e., the coupling coefficient is very low. Even with a lot of sails deployed and flying with the wind, the airship will never be able to move at the precise speed of the surrounding air mass. Ergo, there will be a significantly perceptible "wind." More so when balancing crystal-fed etheric force against the sails to be able to tack; there *will* be a crosswind in that case.

And don't forget that airflow is almost never a perfectly smooth laminar force; there will always be turbulence, interacting air currents and the like.

You did very well to point out that on-water sailing relies largely on the difference between the media, but it doesn't depend entirely on that particular difference. Greatly, yes (see the multiple mentions in the text about how most airship captains deplore using the wind and instead prefer to use etheric propulsion exclusively; if you stop to wonder why, you see why "greatly" ≠ "only"), but never entirely. And it's that gap that allows these airships to sail...and produces wind that the crew can feel.

TL;DR version: Throw a grocery bag in the air when there's significant wind. It moves with the air mass. Ergo, propulsion, and not quite at the speed of that air mass.
I can see density and inertia coming into play when we talk about the time it may take to accelerate to the speed of the air mass upon departure from the surface, but eventually an aircraft will reach that speed.  Every airplane that flies utilizes that speed in calculating its flight path. 

If you wish to postulate a mass so large that the airship will not reach the speed of the air mass during the time of its flight, then I'd expect that any sails would have negligible effect in imparting additional speed to that airship.

Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Mith on October 24, 2015, 04:45:57 AM
Are the sails explicitly described as being deployed like traditional sails on a naval vessel?  I know my mental image is of such (I am not a good study at aerodynamics, and Treasure Planet is one of my favourite movies, so I am not going to be so heavy a critique on functionality), but if they are not specifically described like that, then they could be basically canvas airfoils that work more in style of a hang glider.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 24, 2015, 05:55:15 AM
Are the sails explicitly described as being deployed like traditional sails on a naval vessel?  I know my mental image is of such (I am not a good study at aerodynamics, and Treasure Planet is one of my favourite movies, so I am not going to be so heavy a critique on functionality), but if they are not specifically described like that, then they could be basically canvas airfoils that work more in style of a hang glider.
They're described as canvas sails, to catch the "wind" and move the airship when other methods are not used.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 24, 2015, 03:28:26 PM
I can see density and inertia coming into play when we talk about the time it may take to accelerate to the speed of the air mass upon departure from the surface, but eventually an aircraft will reach that speed.  Every airplane that flies utilizes that speed in calculating its flight path. 

If you wish to postulate a mass so large that the airship will not reach the speed of the air mass during the time of its flight, then I'd expect that any sails would have negligible effect in imparting additional speed to that airship.

"a mass so large" = any nongaseous object. And when a heavier-than-air aircraft that relies on lifting surfaces to remain aloft matches the speed of the air mass it's in, that's called stalling and ends *very* uncomfortably for all involved. All of which means it's a completely inapplicable example, as the airships in TAW do *not* rely on lifting surfaces to remain aloft; the lift crystal is what negates gravity (to a controllably variable extent), while the sails provide the motive force. And the coupling between the air current and the airship can never achieve 100%; it's physically impossible when the differences in density are measurable. Furthermore, to address your comment about inertia applying only until windspeed is matched (which, as I've shown, never happens, but for the sake of argument), you're assuming not only a perfectly smooth laminar flow but an absolutely static vector value (i.e., the air current never changes velocity or direction or meets another air current, etc.). This is more of a practical consideration than one that addresses the fundamental principle I'm trying to convey to you, but there it is, all the same.

Try this on for size: Remember those little "paratrooper" toys from many years ago (i.e., essentially just an action figure with a toy parachute attached to it)? Go outside when the air masses are moving (i.e., the wind is blowing), unfold the parachute and place the action figure in your hand without constraining it. It *will* be pulled out of your hand, but it will never equal the speed of the wind.

This is, of course, a horribly rough illustration, but it *is* illustrative. Sails *can* propel an entirely airborne object, and that object will not quite match the speed of the air current it's in.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: wrangler on October 24, 2015, 04:39:45 PM
"a mass so large" = any nongaseous object. And when a heavier-than-air aircraft that relies on lifting surfaces to remain aloft matches the speed of the air mass it's in, that's called stalling and ends *very* uncomfortably for all involved. All of which means it's a completely inapplicable example, as the airships in TAW do *not* rely on lifting surfaces to remain aloft; the lift crystal is what negates gravity (to a controllably variable extent), while the sails provide the motive force. And the coupling between the air current and the airship can never achieve 100%; it's physically impossible when the differences in density are measurable. Furthermore, to address your comment about inertia applying only until windspeed is matched (which, as I've shown, never happens, but for the sake of argument), you're assuming not only a perfectly smooth laminar flow but an absolutely static vector value (i.e., the air current never changes velocity or direction or meets another air current, etc.). This is more of a practical consideration than one that addresses the fundamental principle I'm trying to convey to you, but there it is, all the same.

Try this on for size: Remember those little "paratrooper" toys from many years ago (i.e., essentially just an action figure with a toy parachute attached to it)? Go outside when the air masses are moving (i.e., the wind is blowing), unfold the parachute and place the action figure in your hand without constraining it. It *will* be pulled out of your hand, but it will never equal the speed of the wind.

This is, of course, a horribly rough illustration, but it *is* illustrative. Sails *can* propel an entirely airborne object, and that object will not quite match the speed of the air current it's in.
The point I made (perhaps not clearly enough) regarding airplanes was that they move with the air mass, in addition to their progress through it, and that this movement must be taken into account in determining the flight path over the ground.  Of course this would be inapplicable regarding the comparison you mention, and which I didn't make.

I'm willing to concede that theoretically the mass may never reach 100% of the speed of the air mass, but approach it asymptotically.  But practically speaking, I consider it close enough to make sails pointless for motive force for at least a large mass.  As long as you have a force (the motion of the air mass) acting on a mass, it will continue to accelerate.

Regarding static wind speed, yes, that was assumed to simplify the example; the effect of changes on a very large mass was considered negligible for the purposes of that example.

Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 24, 2015, 06:47:07 PM
The point I made (perhaps not clearly enough) regarding airplanes was that they move with the air mass, in addition to their progress through it, and that this movement must be taken into account in determining the flight path over the ground.  Of course this would be inapplicable regarding the comparison you mention, and which I didn't make.

I'm willing to concede that theoretically the mass may never reach 100% of the speed of the air mass, but approach it asymptotically.  But practically speaking, I consider it close enough to make sails pointless for motive force for at least a large mass.  As long as you have a force (the motion of the air mass) acting on a mass, it will continue to accelerate.

Regarding static wind speed, yes, that was assumed to simplify the example; the effect of changes on a very large mass was considered negligible for the purposes of that example.

It's not close enough. I'll grant that moving with the air current cuts down on the drag from the main body, sure. But there will always be far more coupling between sails and air than between hull and air, and when the ship as a whole has reached its maximum speed in the air current, that gap (although certainly reduced) will never entirely zero out...and in the meantime, the ship is still moving (ergo, sails as motive force work), and there will still be at least breezes on the deck. Gale-force winds, not so much, but current shifts will increase perceived windspeed on the deck.

Just because it works differently from ships on the sea in no way means it doesn't work. To address your original post:

So how do sails propel these airships, since there's no "wind" within an air mass?

Perhaps it's revealed later?  I just started this book.

...they do propel the ships. And there is perceived air movement.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 25, 2015, 12:36:46 AM
Wrangler still makes a very good point though.  How do you "tack to wind" in an airship?  In water, it's the large resistance of the water together with a keel that allows you to keep your ship with sails at an angle to the wind.  If your ship is completely in the air, what keeps the ship from turning into the direction of the wind? 
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 25, 2015, 12:41:26 AM
Wrangler still makes a very good point though.  How do you "tack to wind" in an airship?  In water, it's the large resistance of the water together with a keel that allows you to keep your ship with sails at an angle to the wind.  If your ship is completely in the air, what keeps the ship from turning into the direction of the wind?
That would only be a problem if the sails were deployed when propelled against the wind by other power, wouldn't it?  It's not like they'd just leave the sails up all the time.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 25, 2015, 01:15:58 AM
Wrangler still makes a very good point though.  How do you "tack to wind" in an airship?  In water, it's the large resistance of the water together with a keel that allows you to keep your ship with sails at an angle to the wind.  If your ship is completely in the air, what keeps the ship from turning into the direction of the wind?

The crystals and the webbing. Between the lift and attitude crystals and the webbing, they could vector to a torquing force sufficient to produce a tacking effect.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Mith on October 25, 2015, 02:43:35 AM
Yeah, I figured that the crystals were tasked with creating a sufficient analogue of a water surface, with the benefit of being able to control the "slope" of the "surface" that allows for ships to change altitude at an incline (instead of a straight drop.)
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 25, 2015, 03:45:52 AM
The crystals and the webbing. Between the lift and attitude crystals and the webbing, they could vector to a torquing force sufficient to produce a tacking effect.

I thought the point was that the sails work in places where the webbing doesn't do anything.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Mith on October 25, 2015, 03:06:10 PM
But the crystals would.  Perhaps that was a mistype.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 26, 2015, 12:44:21 AM
But the crystals would.  Perhaps that was a mistype.

So we're saying that crystals alone are sufficent to keep a ship in a specific direction?  Kinda like a massive gyro?
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 26, 2015, 01:12:35 AM
So we're saying that crystals alone are sufficent to keep a ship in a specific direction?  Kinda like a massive gyro?

No, the combination of webbing (to "catch" the etheric current) and the lift and attitude crystals would do that.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 26, 2015, 01:34:38 AM
No, the combination of webbing (to "catch" the etheric current) and the lift and attitude crystals would do that.

So again, what happens when there is no etheric current, or when you have to shut down the webbing to avoid mistmaws?
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 26, 2015, 02:09:24 AM
So again, what happens when there is no etheric current, or when you have to shut down the webbing to avoid mistmaws?

Seems apparent that sails + lift and attitude crystals would supply motive force and maneuverability, if not quite as powerfully as adding the webbing would.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 26, 2015, 02:45:18 AM
Seems apparent that sails + lift and attitude crystals would supply motive force and maneuverability, if not quite as powerfully as adding the webbing would.

re:maneuverbility, so how do you move in a direction that's not exactly the way the wind is going?  In water, it's the large resistance of the water together with a keel that allows you to keep your ship with sails at an angle to the wind.  If your ship is completely in the air, what keeps the ship from turning into the direction of the wind? 

Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Mith on October 26, 2015, 03:30:59 AM
I think the idea behind the lift crystals is to provide the equivalent resistance to the ship that water would have done for a water vessel.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 26, 2015, 03:33:53 AM
I think the idea behind the lift crystals is to provide the equivalent resistance to the ship that water would have done for a water vessel.

That's what I said when I suggested that the crystals act as a large gyro, but Shecky said no.  I'm trying to figure out what other alternatives there are.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Mith on October 26, 2015, 03:37:50 AM
OK.  I wasn't thinking through exactly what was meant by that statement.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 26, 2015, 11:59:02 AM
That's what I said when I suggested that the crystals act as a large gyro, but Shecky said no.  I'm trying to figure out what other alternatives there are.

Lift crystals only negate gravity's effect; it's the attitude crystals that cause the ship to pitch/roll/yaw and can therefore provide a differently vectored force. Still, considering that air currents are in three dimensions and not just two, I can see how setting the lift crystal to provide downward or upward force could play into that as well.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 26, 2015, 03:35:50 PM
For what it's worth, it does specifically state that the Wind Sails make flight limited in direction while the etheric webs do not.  The implication I took was that they simply couldnt tack with the wind much when they are under Sail-power and so they had the older Square-style sails for downwind travel rather than the more modern triangle ones that allow for tacking maneuvers. 

By contrast, etheric sailing is all about the Webs.  While I havent figured out all the details of how webs work, I've determined that is relies on two factors: the force achieved in each web is directly proportional to the length of web that is reeled out into the air, and also to the magnitude of the electric charge that is energizing the Web (per ch .  It is in the control and interplay of these two factors on different webs  anchored to various points on the ship (top, bottom, and flanks on the Predator) which allows for maneuvers.  That and the "Maneuvering planes mounted on her hull and in her tail."

It's stated that the Etheric webs dont have the same reliance on a current's direction that wind-power does, but also that the webs do still catch "the invisible currents of etheric energy coursing through the aerosphere", so the best things Ive got for now is that either a) the Etheric currents are not a uniform vector field like a magnetic field or wind currents, and so they are turbulent enough to allow the different ship webs to predictably/reliably be pulled in various directions relative to the ship (or perhaps it's core or lift crystal, if those affect the currents), or else b) the natural etheric current is primarily Downward (as in Folly's Sight) and a Charged length of ethersilk webs simply moves orthogonal to that constant downward flow, much like how the directions of Electric current and it's magnetic field are in different but predictably related directions.

It's also worth noting that etheric travel is restricted to "The Aerosphere" and that alternative locomotion is required below it, or "becalmed in some portion of the sky without etheric currents strong enough to propel a vessel."  So Etheric energy is affected and/or restricted by the unique atmosphere of the SpireWorld, so any assumption needs to contain the caveat that the atmosphere and meteorology of the planet itself could be significantly different from what we know.  I mean, this is a world that apparently supports flying creatures large enough to threaten a ship, after all.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 26, 2015, 06:30:17 PM
Lift crystals only negate gravity's effect; it's the attitude crystals that cause the ship to pitch/roll/yaw and can therefore provide a differently vectored force.

I can see how the pitch and roll would work; e.g. simply put more power into the attitude crystals on the front of the ship and the ship will point up.  But how can the attitude crystals cause the yaw?
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Mith on October 26, 2015, 06:42:00 PM
Hmmm, I guess by definition of the lift crystals, they cannot do that, and from the sounds of it, neither can the trim crystals.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 26, 2015, 06:50:02 PM
I can see how the pitch and roll would work; e.g. simply put more power into the attitude crystals on the front of the ship and the ship will point up.  But how can the attitude crystals cause the yaw?

Why wouldn't they? Not being argumentative here; I genuinely don't see why they wouldn't work in all three dimensions.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 26, 2015, 07:02:53 PM
Why wouldn't they? Not being argumentative here; I genuinely don't see why they wouldn't work in all three dimensions.

Because to turn a ship left/right you need to give the crystals the ability to move sideways (not just up-down).  And if that's the case, then this means you can actually use the crystals themselves to move the ship forward.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 26, 2015, 07:58:13 PM
Because to turn a ship left/right you need to give the crystals the ability to move sideways (not just up-down).  And if that's the case, then this means you can actually use the crystals themselves to move the ship forward.

Think of them as the attitude thrusters on a space vessel: they can move the ship, but they tend to provide a few orders of magnitude less thrust than the actual propulsion system. They're the reason I admit I'm making assumptions about the attitude crystals: any airborne vessel needs to have a way to change its attitude in three dimensions and not just move.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 26, 2015, 09:05:47 PM
Think of them as the attitude thrusters on a space vessel: they can move the ship, but they tend to provide a few orders of magnitude less thrust than the actual propulsion system. They're the reason I admit I'm making assumptions about the attitude crystals: any airborne vessel needs to have a way to change its attitude in three dimensions and not just move.
The difference, I think, is that the trim and Lift crystals are not actual thrusters, they are anti-gravity pumps.  They can tilt a vessel by applying less lift to a port-side trim crystal than the starbard-side, but the forces are always acting only in the vertical plane in direct opposition of natural gravity, and so they cant actually apply force in a horozontal direction.  I think the horozontal rotation (ie "Yaw", for those that dont want to look it up like I had to :p) comes from teh interplay of the "Control planes" (wings) and the asymetric pulling from the various Etheric Webs.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Yeratel on October 26, 2015, 09:27:16 PM
I have the mental picture that an airship acts much like a submarine, in a sea of moving air. The lift and trim crystals are like ballast tanks, moving the ship up and down, where it can take advantage of different air currents or aether currents at different altitudes. Without the aetheric webbing to provide propulsion, the ship is carried like a cork on the air currents, and it's streamlined shape means it actually moves a little slower than the air current, unless it extends its sails to provide more surface area and get up to the speed of the air. And with regular sails, it can only move in the direction of the airflow. With the aether silk sails extended, actual thrust is provided, which can move the ship in any direction, including against the flow of the air.
Was there not also mention made of ships with steam engines? Perhaps with propellers like a dirigible, or was that just for running the windlass barges that traveled up and down the spire?
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 26, 2015, 09:33:20 PM
Was there not also mention made of ships with steam engines? Perhaps with propellers like a dirigible, or was that just for running the windlass barges that traveled up and down the spire?
There was, they are the more popular choice than wind for a backup engine. They use "steam-driven propellers and the new screw-like turbines."  But they are both heavier and louder than wind power.  Not to mention the fact that a pile of canvas very rarely explodes...
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 27, 2015, 01:26:41 AM
The difference, I think, is that the trim and Lift crystals are not actual thrusters, they are anti-gravity pumps.  They can tilt a vessel by applying less lift to a port-side trim crystal than the starbard-side, but the forces are always acting only in the vertical plane in direct opposition of natural gravity, and so they cant actually apply force in a horozontal direction.  I think the horozontal rotation (ie "Yaw", for those that dont want to look it up like I had to :p) comes from teh interplay of the "Control planes" (wings) and the asymetric pulling from the various Etheric Webs.

I think I agree with this, though  I personally don't think "control planes" are enough given the reasons I mentioned above.
FWIW, you've got the following quote:

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"Grimm saw the enemy ship sturggling to stabilize itself with it's trim crystals alone - a tricky proposition without enough forward momentum to allow the more responsive manuevering planes to assist with the task".

This directly confirms that the "manuevering planes" are what counts.

But then you've got the following:

(during final battle with Itsaca, one set of web destroyed, other reefed, and one set of trim crystals burned out):

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"Hard to port at flank speed, Mister Kettle!  Stay ahead of her turn!"

Basically, Predator is managing to make a circle around Itsaca (and keeping ahead of the battlecruisers' steam-powered turn) despite having no sails out, no web, and only half her crystals working....  I don't think I can explain it unless we're saying there was enough residual speed to do this.  Even then. how are they going to turn?  I can't imagine that the control planes are big enough to do anything -- wind resistance is simply not going to be enough.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Maredudd on October 27, 2015, 02:07:09 AM
Hi Folks!

I looked up "Trim" as it relates to aeronautics and based on what I saw, are we certain that the Trim Crystals do not provide the same function for Jim's airships as they do for aircraft today?

You want to go in a particular direction and set the trim crystals and the produce the forces necessary in the airship to move it to the desired orientation, Not that they provide no motive force though so whether you are using the etheric web or the sails, its business as usual. Technically this could compensate for the what is missing when compared to a surface ship.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 27, 2015, 02:08:34 AM
The difference, I think, is that the trim and Lift crystals are not actual thrusters, they are anti-gravity pumps.  They can tilt a vessel by applying less lift to a port-side trim crystal than the starbard-side, but the forces are always acting only in the vertical plane in direct opposition of natural gravity, and so they cant actually apply force in a horozontal direction.  I think the horozontal rotation (ie "Yaw", for those that dont want to look it up like I had to :p) comes from teh interplay of the "Control planes" (wings) and the asymetric pulling from the various Etheric Webs.

That's if you're assuming that lift and trim crystals work in precisely the same manner, which I'm not. But you're certainly correct to point out the control planes; while they wouldn't provide the same order of magnitude of effect as a keel in a denser medium, there'd certainly be torque available.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Maredudd on October 27, 2015, 02:14:01 AM
With respect to the Trim Crystals, perhaps the trim crystals serve the function of a control surface. I suggest this because modern aircraft use a trim control to help hold the various control surfaces in the set position, to make it easier for the pilot, and its not a big leap to say lets just loose the middle man and say the trim crystal provided the function of the control surface . . .
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 27, 2015, 01:12:37 PM
That's if you're assuming that lift and trim crystals work in precisely the same manner, which I'm not. But you're certainly correct to point out the control planes; while they wouldn't provide the same order of magnitude of effect as a keel in a denser medium, there'd certainly be torque available.
That's true, I'd thought the line that mentioned inverted gravity said both trim and lift crystals, but it doesnt mention trim crystals at all in the list of energy conversion types. Looking into it: earlier, Grimm refers to the new trim crystals as lift crystals in his internal monologue when they first arrive and journeyman is looking them over; that could be indicative of a trim crystals as a subset of Lift Crystal, or just a typo. 

I'd say it stands to reason, regardless, that they are simply smaller versions of the same, because from what I can tell, a crystal that could apply thrust directly in the horizontal would be a game-changing technology.  It would be core-powered thrust that is entirely protected by the shroud, and if they can be made anywhere near as strong as the main Lift Crystal, they'd be able to accelerate the ship to G's at the limits of their crew's endurance.  It's the lack of that sort of horizontal thrust that makes the Dive maneuver so important, because it's the only way they can get that sort of speed.


With respect to the Trim Crystals, perhaps the trim crystals serve the function of a control surface. I suggest this because modern aircraft use a trim control to help hold the various control surfaces in the set position, to make it easier for the pilot, and its not a big leap to say lets just loose the middle man and say the trim crystal provided the function of the control surface . . .
Reasonable, but the airships do also have control surfaces, though I think they are stationary, so if the trim crystals contribute is only part of it. 
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Shecky on October 27, 2015, 01:25:25 PM
I'll freely admit that I've been assuming a particular set of things:

1) That the lift crystal is the big one because that's the one that deals with the biggest force: gravity. It makes structural sense to have a single large one at the center of gravity; it's easiest to design a support system that hinges on one point of force instead of multiple. Having multiple smaller lift crystals distributed throughout the ship would supply a lot of redundancy, true, but it would also make designing supports far more complex and make managing their output perhaps beyond the capacity of a single pilot. It's the way I would do it, anyway. May also have something to do with the higher efficiency/effectiveness of a single large crystal as compared to those of multiple small crystals.

2) That the attitude crystals can't be set to provide force along varying vectors, not just with or against gravity. I've personally seen no reason to think that something that applies a force must be limited to one axis (again, I may easily be wrong on this, so grain of salt, etc.), and with the lift crystal's support system supplying a central axis point, it would therefore be easy to distribute attitude crystals to work around that rotational point in all three dimensions. (Again, see maneuvering thrusters on, for example, Apollo spacecraft.)

A lot of assumptions, I know. But they make engineering sense to my eye.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 27, 2015, 05:26:36 PM
I'll freely admit that I've been assuming a particular set of things:

1) That the lift crystal is the big one because that's the one that deals with the biggest force: gravity. It makes structural sense to have a single large one at the center of gravity; it's easiest to design a support system that hinges on one point of force instead of multiple. Having multiple smaller lift crystals distributed throughout the ship would supply a lot of redundancy, true, but it would also make designing supports far more complex and make managing their output perhaps beyond the capacity of a single pilot. It's the way I would do it, anyway. May also have something to do with the higher efficiency/effectiveness of a single large crystal as compared to those of multiple small crystals.
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That's fair.  The assupmtion I was under was more or less the same, except that the they were all Lift Crystals in that they are all anti-gravity pumps.  The /Main/ Lift crystal is the largest only because it has to take the full load coming out of a Dive, which to do efficiently requires a massive and precisely made, whereas the Trim Crystals are just smaller/younger and easier to mass-produce.  They could (barely) hold the load on their own but would be burned out by even light manuevers; the rest of the time they are only there to pivot the ships mass around the Main lift crystal. 

At one point gwen lists categories of crystal (Lift, Weapon, Cannon, Power/Core).  In another line Folly lists some types and their energy conversions.  From the two I come up with the following list of crystal types:

Lumen Crystals:  Etheric to Light

Weapon Crystals: Etheric to Heat & Force

Core Crystals: Etheric to Electricity

Cannon Crystals: Electric to Heat & Force

Lift Crystals: Electric to "Inverted Gravity"

2) That the attitude crystals can't be set to provide force along varying vectors, not just with or against gravity. I've personally seen no reason to think that something that applies a force must be limited to one axis (again, I may easily be wrong on this, so grain of salt, etc.), and with the lift crystal's support system supplying a central axis point, it would therefore be easy to distribute attitude crystals to work around that rotational point in all three dimensions. (Again, see maneuvering thrusters on, for example, Apollo spacecraft.)

A lot of assumptions, I know. But they make engineering sense to my eye.
The only way I can see that the lift crystals would be limited to a single axis is if they are all (main and trim) limited to reversing gravity along it's natural vector, rather than being able to redirect it omni-directionally.  But I freely admit that Im looking for a reason, if only to explain why anyone would bother with wind sails (or steam turbines or such flammable and tangle-prone systems like Etheric Webs) if you could channel the electricity that would otherwise be used to charge web into a direct thruster.  I dont think it's 100% clear from the text so far, but it's the only way Ive come up with to reconcile the two things in my mind, and has the added bonus of simplifying the 'magic system' of the crystal types.  Hopefully we'll get more details next time around.  If it centers around airship races as I hope, it would have plenty of reason to pontificate on the technology. 
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 27, 2015, 05:57:01 PM
1) That the lift crystal is the big one because that's the one that deals with the biggest force: gravity. It makes structural sense to have a single large one at the center of gravity;

One thing for sure, if the main lift crystal is actually an engine that just happens to be perpetually pointed straight down, then that a is a colossal waste of energy/power.  At the very least, since we know that the crystal can violently slow down a dropping ship, that means that it has enough power to both keep the ship in the air and move it forward.  All you would need to do is increase power to the crystal and angle it so that 90% of the thrust is pointing downward and 10% forward.  Heck, you could just mount two lift crystals and go zooming around as fast as you want.

That's why I very much agree with Quantus, that the crystals (lift and attitude) can only control up/down.  "Inverted Gravity" is probably the best name for it, since it actually uses negative gravity to create the lift.  Though even this would have weird physics.  Remember that there is an apparent limit to how high the crystal would work (7-8 miles), despite the fact that gravity goes "forever".
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 27, 2015, 06:12:17 PM
One thing for sure, if the main lift crystal is actually an engine that just happens to be perpetually pointed straight down, then that a is a colossal waste of energy/power.  At the very least, since we know that the crystal can violently slow down a dropping ship, that means that it has enough power to both keep the ship in the air and move it forward.  All you would need to do is increase power to the crystal and angle it so that 90% of the thrust is pointing downward and 10% forward.  Heck, you could just mount two lift crystals and go zooming around as fast as you want.

That's why I very much agree with Quantus, that the crystals (lift and attitude) can only control up/down.  "Inverted Gravity" is probably the best name for it, since it actually uses negative gravity to create the lift.  Though even this would have weird physics.  Remember that there is an apparent limit to how high the crystal would work (7-8 miles), despite the fact that gravity goes "forever".
Gravity is directly proportional to distance though, it's not truly "forever." It was mentioned that the lift crystal would be far more efficient at lower altitudes, so I think it just has to work harder the higher you go, until a breaking point is reached.  That may have to do with distance from the main "aerosphere" level of the planet, which seem to be where the etheric currents exist in sufficient density for airship web use. 
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 28, 2015, 01:29:26 AM
Gravity is directly proportional to distance though, it's not truly "forever." It was mentioned that the lift crystal would be far more efficient at lower altitudes, so I think it just has to work harder the higher you go, until a breaking point is reached.  That may have to do with distance from the main "aerosphere" level of the planet, which seem to be where the etheric currents exist in sufficient density for airship web use.

Unless the radius of the planet is very small, an extra 7-8 miles is pretty negligible in the scale of things, at least with respect to pure gravity.  If the crystal gradually stopped working as you went higher, then I think it would be pretty much at it's limit already.  The fact that crystal can lift the Predator so quickly implies to me this is not the case. 

On the other hand, I seem to recall that sails/steam are supposed to be the prime means of propulsion when you are out of the aerosphere.  This implies that the lift crystal works out of the aerospere (otherwise the ship would simply fall).   I suppose it's possible that the crystal simply gets weaker as you move further away from the range of the aerosphere...

Still, the fact that ships are built to have means of propulsion out of the aerosphere implies that it's a place that you would normally be required to reach in a ship.  To me this all seems to imply that the aerosphere is a narrow band, say 2-4 miles thick floating a mile over the ground.  Thus, ship that go to the bottom level need to have steam/wind.  This combined with the idea that lift crystal work less well out of the aerosphere might be part of the reason big ships can't do power-dives.  If they try to regain lift too slowly, they get to places where the lift crystal is no longer strong enough to slow them down before they hit the ground.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 28, 2015, 01:22:30 PM
Unless the radius of the planet is very small, an extra 7-8 miles is pretty negligible in the scale of things, at least with respect to pure gravity.  If the crystal gradually stopped working as you went higher, then I think it would be pretty much at it's limit already.  The fact that crystal can lift the Predator so quickly implies to me this is not the case. 

On the other hand, I seem to recall that sails/steam are supposed to be the prime means of propulsion when you are out of the aerosphere.  This implies that the lift crystal works out of the aerospere (otherwise the ship would simply fall).   I suppose it's possible that the crystal simply gets weaker as you move further away from the range of the aerosphere...

Still, the fact that ships are built to have means of propulsion out of the aerosphere implies that it's a place that you would normally be required to reach in a ship.  To me this all seems to imply that the aerosphere is a narrow band, say 2-4 miles thick floating a mile over the ground.  Thus, ship that go to the bottom level need to have steam/wind.  This combined with the idea that lift crystal work less well out of the aerosphere might be part of the reason big ships can't do power-dives.  If they try to regain lift too slowly, they get to places where the lift crystal is no longer strong enough to slow them down before they hit the ground.
That seems generally sound.  Do we know for sure that the currents are actually gone at the lower altitudes?  I want to say there was a mention of not using webs down in the mists because they attracted giant predator monsters. 

Either way, there are two separate energy paths at play here, I think.  Lift crystals get electrical power from the core, which in turn converts ether to electricity, and the older it is the more of one you get from the other, so the efficiency is determined by the crystal properties as much as anything.  By contrast the Web requires both electric current from the Core as well as actual Etheric currents for the energized web to interact with.  I imagine there is simply a breaking point where the Core can no longer convert enough ether to electricity to drive both the lift crystals and still energize the web enough to get reasonable speed. 
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 28, 2015, 01:57:32 PM
That seems generally sound.  Do we know for sure that the currents are actually gone at the lower altitudes?  I want to say there was a mention of not using webs down in the mists because they attracted giant predator monsters. 

This is from chapter 1.   Seems pretty conclusive to me:

Quote from: Cinder Spires
Few airships utilized wind-sails these days. Steam-driven propellers and the new screwlike turbines were the preferred means of locomotion in the event that a ship dropped out of the aerosphere or was becalmed in some portion of the sky without etheric currents strong enough to propel a vessel.


I imagine there is simply a breaking point where the Core can no longer convert enough ether to electricity to drive both the lift crystals and still energize the web enough to get reasonable speed.

Are we saying that the Core gets less powerful as you go out of the aerosphere or that the lift crystal needs more power to maintain altitude as you go further away?  I was thinking the latter, but if a core crystal converts etheric energy to electricity then it obviously needs to be in a place where there is sufficient ether.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 28, 2015, 02:39:47 PM
This is from chapter 1.   Seems pretty conclusive to me:
That's what I was looking at too, but it still doesnt clarify if dont use them lower because they do not function, or because they are beacons to giant etheric monsters that would eat any ship that attracts its attention with active webs.  It said in Ch.2 two that the Mistmaws are attracted to powered webbing.  The Webbing was being used during the dive, and he said he expected that Journeyman cut the line asap /after/ tehy pulled out of the dive.  This implies to me that it is technically possible to use the Webbing for motive force down in the Mists, and that it's just not smart too far from the Spires because of the danger of attracting predators.  The fact that barges and Windlaces can float themselves all the way up from the surface would tell me there is at least a little Ether there.  Though it's possible that the Spire is actively pulling it down (by Folly's sight) so it may only exist at low altitudes near a spire. 
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Are we saying that the Core gets less powerful as you go out of the aerosphere or that the lift crystal needs more power to maintain altitude as you go further away?  I was thinking the latter, but if a core crystal converts etheric energy to electricity then it obviously needs to be in a place where there is sufficient ether.
Both, I think, maybe (depending on the definition of Aerosphere).  Gwen says of the first gen core: "IF the crystal was as old as journeyman claimed, it would be able to produce more electricity from less etheric energy than almost any crystal gwen had heard of-- which would mean that the ship could sail to more places, farther and farther from the main etheric currents, and do it more swiftly.  Im not clear on how the ether varies with altitude, but it seems to flow around the planet in large, jet-stream style currents by the sound of it, something relatively stable and/or mapable
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 28, 2015, 03:11:17 PM
It said in Ch.2 two that the Mistmaws are attracted to powered webbing.  The Webbing was being used during the dive, and he said he expected that Journeyman cut the line asap /after/ tehy pulled out of the dive.  This implies to me that it is technically possible to use the Webbing for motive force down in the Mists,

I just assumed that "dropping out of the aerosphere" meant going even lower than the mistmaws.   Considering that the mistmaws like to eat ether-related products, it seems not unlikely that they'd be living within the aerosphere.


Quote
Both, I think, maybe (depending on the definition of Aerosphere).  Gwen says of the first gen core: "IF the crystal was as old as journeyman claimed, it would be able to produce more electricity from less etheric energy than almost any crystal gwen had heard of-- which would mean that the ship could sail to more places, farther and farther from the main etheric currents, and do it more swiftly.  Im not clear on how the ether varies with altitude, but it seems to flow around the planet in large, jet-stream style currents by the sound of it, something relatively stable and/or mapable

Good quote.  All this makes me wonder about other crystals uses.  Do we say that gloves (or the etheric cannons) don't work as well outside of the aerosphere? 

Similarly, if we assume that "steam power" involves heating water to boiling temperatures by crystaltech, then does this imply that steam powered ships wouldn't work as well out of the aerosphere?
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 28, 2015, 03:28:47 PM
I just assumed that "dropping out of the aerosphere" meant going even lower than the mistmaws.   Considering that the mistmaws like to eat ether-related products, it seems not unlikely that they'd be living within the aerosphere.


Good quote.  All this makes me wonder about other crystals uses.  Do we say that gloves (or the etheric cannons) don't work as well outside of the aerosphere? 

Similarly, if we assume that "steam power" involves heating water to boiling temperatures by crystaltech, then does this imply that steam powered ships wouldn't work as well out of the aerosphere?
Well, gauntlets are fueld by the currents directly, but need far less since they work in places where the ether is not strong enough to require goggle protection.  The Cannons work on electricity, so they can operate anywhere the Core crystal has sufficient ether to generate said electricity, which is partially determined by the age/design of the core.  As far as the fuel for steam power, Id assumed at first that it would need to be a separate fuel source from teh Core Crystals, on the logic that the the Itasca running steam engines along side their webs for extra speed wouldnt make sense if the steam engines stole power from a common source.  But I supposed if it has a dedicated power crystal that generates heat directly rather than electricity it would make sense. 

It's worth noting that it's possible to become "becalmed" in an area of low ether were webs dont work.  In those instances they switch to steam or wind, so the implication is that they can stay afloat on far less ether than they require to use the Webs. 


Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 28, 2015, 03:57:48 PM
Well, gauntlets are fueled by the currents directly, but need far less since they work in places where the ether is not strong enough to require goggle protection.

This seems a little OP to me.   ;)  Depending on how versatile/accurate a glove crystal is,  I would think you could come up with a whole list of power tools/applications that would be pretty useful for everyday life.  Power tools, etc.

The Cannons work on electricity, so they can operate anywhere the Core crystal has sufficient ether to generate said electricity, which is partially determined by the age/design of the core. 

Do they?  I knew they projected some form of energy beam, but I wasn't aware the energy came from electricity somewhere along the way.

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As far as the fuel for steam power, Id assumed at first that it would need to be a separate fuel source from teh Core Crystals, on the logic that the the Itasca running steam engines along side their webs for extra speed wouldnt make sense if the steam engines stole power from a common source. 

The problem here is that you'd think coal/wood would be extremely expensive to use.  Since we know that (at least some types) of crystals heat up after long use, using the waste heat to create steam might just be a way of making things more efficient.  Also, remember that Itsaca was using steam to help turn/move after their webs were raked.  At this point it makes sense to divert power from the web to the propellers.

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But I supposed if it has a dedicated power crystal that generates heat directly rather than electricity it would make sense. 

If we assume that the gloves work everywhere, then this might imply that you can use them even where the ether is not thick.  Heck, if all your sailors/marines have gloves, might as well put those crystals to use (for heating water) if you're not preparing to repel boarders.


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It's worth noting that it's possible to become "becalmed" in an area of low ether were webs dont work.  In those instances they switch to steam or wind, so the implication is that they can stay afloat on far less ether than they require to use the Webs.

That's why I thought maybe lift crystals aren't dependent on ether at all.  It's only the fact that the core crystals produce less power away from the ether that creates the lift limitations.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 28, 2015, 05:50:38 PM



This seems a little OP to me.   ;)  Depending on how versatile/accurate a glove crystal is,  I would think you could come up with a whole list of power tools/applications that would be pretty useful for everyday life.  Power tools, etc.
There are some scalability issues (gauntlets vs long-guns) and clearly overheating is a constant issue, but Im not ready to discount power tools, both etheric and electric
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Do they?  I knew they projected some form of energy beam, but I wasn't aware the energy came from electricity somewhere along the way.
Yup, Folly said specifically that "the most complex crystals of all, power-core crystals, expressed their energy in another form--Electricity. [...] the power-core crystal was grown with complex pathways needed to route etheric energy into a rising surplus, converting it into bottled lightning."  Combine that with the fact that several mention that the Core is waht powers the Lift/Trim crystals, the shroud and the cannons, with the power distribution being a priamry tactical concern.   

Previously Folly had  said that lumen crystals convert ether into "a trickle of light" and weapon crystals did the same only with heat and force.  Gwen listed Weapon crystals and Cannon crystals separately at one point, so I think that they are distinct in design.

I think crystals are an etheric analog of semiconductors, in the sense that they are all more or less made of the same substances, the only differences being in the size and the patterns they are grown to. 
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The problem here is that you'd think coal/wood would be extremely expensive to use.  Since we know that (at least some types) of crystals heat up after long use, using the waste heat to create steam might just be a way of making things more efficient.  Also, remember that Itsaca was using steam to help turn/move after their webs were raked.  At this point it makes sense to divert power from the web to the propellers.
Fair points all.
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If we assume that the gloves work everywhere, then this might imply that you can use them even where the ether is not thick.  Heck, if all your sailors/marines have gloves, might as well put those crystals to use (for heating water) if you're not preparing to repel boarders.
Agreed.
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That's why I thought maybe lift crystals aren't dependent on ether at all.  It's only the fact that the core crystals produce less power away from the ether that creates the lift limitations.
Agreed, they arent, at least not directly; they are powered with electricity from the Core Crystal, which in turn needs some amount of ether dictated by its quality.
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 28, 2015, 06:26:30 PM
So then there are two main classes of crystals:

1) Ether --> Energy (Power/Weapons/Light)
2) Electricity --> Other (Lift/Weapon/Shroud/Trim).

We know that Lift/Trim crystals decay over time and Power crystals get better.   I wonder if this difference is true for the others in the same category (though the idea of "spent" light crystals kinda negates this).
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Mith on October 28, 2015, 06:38:44 PM
This video (http://) comes to mind every time I see this thread in my inbox
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 28, 2015, 07:02:01 PM
So then there are two main classes of crystals:

1) Ether --> Energy (Power/Weapons/Light)
2) Electricity --> Other (Lift/Weapon Cannon/Shroud/Trim).

We know that Lift/Trim crystals decay over time and Power crystals get better.   I wonder if this difference is true for the others in the same category (though the idea of "spent" light crystals kinda negates this).
So far yes, though I wouldnt put it past the setting to have crystals convert other energies, perhaps heat to electricity, or Ether to Lasers?

Also, I havent been able to find any mention of a Shroud crystal, I was under the impression it was a direct property of the Core crystal for some reason (perhaps the way
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: knnn on October 30, 2015, 01:17:25 PM
So far yes, though I wouldnt put it past the setting to have crystals convert other energies, perhaps heat to electricity, or Ether to Lasers?

Also, I havent been able to find any mention of a Shroud crystal, I was under the impression it was a direct property of the Core crystal for some reason (perhaps the way
(click to show/hide)

I should the shroud was something you couldn't keep up 24/7 as it was too taxing. 
Title: Re: Sails?
Post by: Quantus on October 30, 2015, 01:43:22 PM
I should the shroud was something you couldn't keep up 24/7 as it was too taxing.
Hmm, that's true.  And that implies a way to control it, which at this level of tech would either need it to be a separate crystal system they can regulate the power feed to, or else I suppose it could be emitted from the core but suppressed/dampened so that it doesnt use up the full level of energy. 

If it is indeed a separate type of crystal, Im really curious to hear how it functions.  I mean, Force Fields...