That being said, they grow meat in blocks in Vats, pealing a leather rind off them periodically to let them develop, and they mention hydroponics for plant growth, so I doubt they'd let the resources represented by a sewer to be discarded completely out the base.
Absolutely agree. If nothing else, the shear amount of waste of ~1,000,000 people is mass that needs to be replenished. The problem is that adding an efficient recycling system on top of the sewer problem is even more complicated to get right. Sure the "Builders" might have put something in place, but it seems to me that keeping it running without some good technological knowhow would be hard.Very true, but I dont think it would take any more than the ventallation systems, or the meat cloning vats for that matter. Modern water treatement plants are basically just big vats of aglae/bacteria with air bubble supply and a skimmer; the hardest parts are actually more about filtering all the TP and other non-crap crap out of the water. It would take some chemistry knowhow to recycle and make more efficient use of the verious trace elements, but nothing that they werent doing a couple centuries back in RL.
Very true, but I dont think it would take any more than the ventallation systems, or the meat cloning vats for that matter.
Fair enough.For the volumes we are talking, they probably do it the same way we often do...they send a low-paid individual to crawl through them.
So the main problem that remains is pipes that you cannot reach (because they are stuck in indestructible walls) and blockages/filtering.
Pumping it isnt too much of an issue if you assume that the Spire is itself a Power plant to some extent, supporting it's own systems. That height would take a pressure of around 4500 PSI to go the whole way in a single push, which isnt out of the question for steam powered systems. But more likely they'd only ever have to pump from one Habble's reservoir to the next one's up or down, which keeps it in far more manageable distances.
...what about the problem of collecting enough water for everyone? On earth, we pump water from miles around to bring to our cities. Here, if you only rely on water that actually falls on the spire, I don't think you'd have sufficient amounts. Basically, you need to have efficient means of extracting water from the air, or pump it in from outside and bring it two miles up.
For the volumes we are talking, they probably do it the same way we often do...they send a low-paid individual to crawl through them. Pumping it isnt too much of an issue if you assume that the Spire is itself a Power plant to some extent, supporting it's own systems. That height would take a pressure of around 4500 PSI to go the whole way in a single push, which isnt out of the question for steam powered systems. But more likely they'd only ever have to pump from one Habble's reservoir to the next one's up or down, which keeps it in far more manageable distances.With the obvious high humidity it isn't hard to believe that the ground is pretty water rich. So Spires having an Immortan Joe style pumping system wouldn't be out of the question. Hell, it might have been how the Builders deckded where to put the spires.
I agree that I dont expect that the outside of the Spire would see enough rainfall/condensation to supply all it's needs, though that would depend on things like humidity and atmospheric content, which The Mists cast a big ol' question mark across.
For the volumes we are talking, they probably do it the same way we often do...they send a low-paid individual to crawl through them.
To bad you can't send a cat...Nah, that's Human work. Such things are far beneath the dignity of a cat. Obviously. ;)
Am I the only one that had a three sea shells reference pop into my head while reading this.No, but thanks to you I will henceforth!
So the main problem that remains is pipes that you cannot reach (because they are stuck in indestructible walls) and blockages/filtering.One would assume the Merciful Builders foresaw this issue and included regular access to sewage pipes/tunnels for this reason.
As someone in Civil Engineering, I think the best idea is to not think too hard about this. Or assume these fantastical Builders came up with an ingenious design system that is self maintaining. Or perhaps they put in regular inlets and outlets throughout each Habbles. With devices that flow the length of the pipes finding and fixing problems.I tend to picture a more modular system, rather than a massive Network with centralized systems. So each habble only has to deal with the utility needs of it's own residents more or less, and only has to move material to it's neighbors (rather than the whole height of the spire). This also may be the reason why some of those habbles are currently unoccupied, rather than simply a matter of the population not being at capacity.
I tend to picture a more modular system, rather than a massive Network with centralized systems. So each habble only has to deal with the utility needs of it's own residents more or less, and only has to move material to it's neighbors (rather than the whole height of the spire). This also may be the reason why some of those habbles are currently unoccupied, rather than simply a matter of the population not being at capacity.
So what happens if one habble is put out of commission (either neglect or deliberate)? Does that mess up the whole network?Nah, basic bypasses would need to be in place regardless, and otherwise that becomes the benefit of a de-centralized design: fewer bottleneck failure points, and fundamental redundancy. There would be an inherent design limit in that you couldnt handle any more disabled habbles in a row than you had the power to pump past. So if you can pump only four levels up lets say, you cant bypass more than four levels without at least getting their reservoir pumps running. But then that starts getting into pump designs and mechanisms, the actual value requirements, the pressure limits of the piping, etc.
And I guess I just assumed that their waste got converted into the vatsand.
They just use the old method. In a bucket out of the window. There is a reason all those creatures living beneath the spires are so angry.
They get their water from the mists. They filter it out of the air somehow.
hey look...starwars reference where is Luke?That's your Star Wars reference from Jim? :p
I don't remember anything about lack of water. For example, nothing about bathing as a signifier of social class. So I guess it's possible that the spire is pretty efficient at just recycling the waste. The waste gets the water drawn out and recirculated and the solid matter gets sterilized and used as fertilizer (vatsand). There appears to be enough available electrical power and, presumably, previously available biological knowledge to set up such a reclamation system. How much it runs without intervention and how muc hthe spires inhabitants maintain it isn't mentioned anywhere.
That would explain where (most) of the water comes from and where (most) of the poop goes. Both very important things to cove when any large population gets discussed.
Of course, without rain, I'd guess that street cleaning / garbage removal / etc has got to be a pretty big deal. No mention of how lower class sections of the Habble constantly smell of poop, rotting garbage, etc. One good outbreak of Cholera or something and you can't just wait for the rain to come and clean things up a bit. You have to go and scrub all that down by hand.
Of course, if the Predator is self aware, what about the spires themselves? Do they live in the self aware colony (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqN3Ur-wP0)?
I guess that depends if a spire has it's own power crystal at the heart of it. Or perhaps if the spirestone itself works as power crystal itself. We don't see Folly trying to communicate with the spire (as she does with the library and the ship), so that's a mark against that possibility.True, but to be fair she was just opening up some of her abilities as the story unfolded, so may not have had the chance. And the Predator is, by it's nature, a more active entity than the Spire would be; a Spire gaining sentience doesnt have drives for freedom or the hunt, it would be more mountain-like I'd think, becoming more aware of it's Here-ness than anything as awake as the Predator.
a Spire gaining sentience doesnt have drives for freedom or the hunt, it would be more mountain-like I'd think, becoming more aware of it's Here-ness than anything as awake as the Predator.
Perhaps. I guess I don't like the idea too much because it feels like yet another Alera analog.Fwiw, that is the wording JB recently used to explain what the Outer Gates would be like gaining sentience. :P
Fwiw, that is the wording JB recently used to explain what the Outer Gates would be like gaining sentience. :P
um, what? Where is this quote?Well damn, spent 20 minutes looking and I cant find it. It was very recent, I think somebody asked him if the outer gates could gain sentience over time in the way that things like the Athame apparently do, and he said that even if it did it would just become more aware of it's 'Here-ness'. I think it was the same one where he says the Outer gates dont actually look like that, but that what we saw was how Harry's brain had to interpret what it was seeing into simple concepts.
Oh yeah, I think I recall that one. It's suggestive and interesting, but oh so open to interpretation.I know right? All it takes is a single "probably" and it all becomes as solids as jello. ;D
The way I would interpret that WoJ is that *if* the Gates were a regular "construct" (like demonreach?), then the amount of energies involved would have given it some form of sentience. But, since the Gates are actually something else entirely (a "living" creature? A mantle made solid? A physical manifestation of one of the fundamental laws of the universe?), then this rule doesn't apply.I tend to lean that way as well, with this as a more general statement about Sites and large inanimate objects with Power/awareness. Those first three words give me pause though; I think they imply that the Gates are indeed Aware, but for different reasons than are being implied by the questioner.
Note that this interpretation somewhat contradicts Harry's impressions of the gate -- that is actually is a physcial object (need to recheck who he talks to about this Rashid/MS and what their response is).
I've just finished the book, and was thinking that they use an awful lot of resources. Recycling is a fine first step for waste and water, but successful cloning in vats, as well as the manufacture of crystals and who knows what else requires much greater resources I am sure. They create steel weapons coated in copper and copper cannon. Since they do not utilize the surface of whatever planet they are on, where do the raw materials for them come from?They have mines, that's a punishment for higher crimes.
how do they mine? If they dig underneath the spire they reissue destabilizing it. How would they even locate new site if the surface is so deadly?Didn't they have caravans that go between the spires? It's dangerous but instant death. It's like walking through any wild place
The waste systems are likely linked to the meat vatteries and the water gardens, that are likely in some form in each Habble. They must have some really advance hydroponics or at least a magical version.
Didn't they have caravans that go between the spires? It's dangerous but instant death. It's like walking through any wild placeI thought so too, but I looked back on that passage recently (for a similar conversation) and they'd only traveled a mile or so on the surface and were implying that they'd crashed an airship and been required to hike about a mile on the surface.
Unless they have roads on the surface, traveling through a mist drenched jungle with lots of goods would be next to impossible.Not impossible necessarily, but certainly suicidal
I think it depends on just how many spires there are in their world. If they exist in high numbers, then there can't be a limited number of mines, as that would allow the spires that control them unprecedented power over the others.I mean, there's a spire whose entire economy is driven by its honey monopoly. I wouldn't be surprised if other spires had monopolies over various mined materials
Spires likely force an extra ordinary level of recycling. If one spire has a honey monopoly, could another have certain stone monopolies? People have paid a lot for certain types of stone when designing stuff specifically.That would make sense. I mean, they used lots of wood in Albion, but they dont consider it an abundant material, or the preferred one really, and the Aurorans thought it even more rare/scarce. Its just the best they had since they cant recreate Spire/Cinderstone. If its that costly to simply haul wood up from the surface I imagine the volumes of Stone that you could move spire-to-spire would be cost-prohibative. But if it were a more local resource (like wood is for Albion) then they might do more stoenwork. From a purely asthetic POV, I could see Spire Olypia using a lot of Marble construction, for example, as a contrast to the warmer woods of Albion).
So here's another question: What do they use instead of toilet paper? Historically it was:
- Sand or rocks (not really available in a Spire).
- Leaves (also kinda hard to find).
- Smooth piece of wood (expensive).
- Roman Sponge (this is a sea-sponge. Don't think they'd have that).
- Bidet (possible, but a little advanced technology and you still need to wipe with something).
They can somehow synthetically create meat. I assume it is technology left by the Builders right? If I were going to build a shelter such as a spire and include tech to make food, tech to make cleaning supplies would naturally follow. Maybe there is a toilet paper vattery of some sort.
The inner monologue of whats-her-name when she sees the library indicates that books are very expensive. This doesn't quite jive with having mass-produced toilet paper.Unless they are hand written. Labour costs alone would make them very expensive.
Gwen stared for several silent seconds and then realized she was attempting to calculate the approximate value of the books, based solely upon their materials. The paper for each book was representative of more wood than its volume would suggest.