ParanetOnline
Other Jimness => Cinder Spires Spoilers => Topic started by: punkinholler on October 16, 2015, 12:38:59 AM
-
It seems pretty clear that iron rusts faster in the Cinder Spires world than it does here, which is kind of interesting. There are a number of things that can affect corrosion rates but a lot of them are not compatible with human life. As far as I can tell there are only three things that could make iron rust faster in an environment suitable for humans: 1) there are a lot of salt particulates in the air (like when you're at the beach). This seems unlikely since salt doesn't stay in air very easily and tends to either fall out directly or get rained out. There would need to be some constant and omnipresent source spitting salt into the atmosphere all over the world (oceans couldn't do it for obvious reasons) which just makes no sense. 2) There is a higher concentration of oxygen on that world than on Earth. This is possible within a certain range and it surely would make the danger of fire a lot scarier. 3) Whatever planet they are on has an insanely strong electromagnetic field. Running an electrical current through iron will absolutely corrode it more quickly and a crazy strong planetary EM field would be consistent with all the "etheric energy" stuff. On the other hand, strong EM fields supposedly have a few negative effects on people, but one would assume the humans in that world evolved to handle it or they wouldn't be there. Personally, I think #3 is the best explanation, maybe with a side order of #2 for good measure. What do ya'll think? Also, does anyone know if there's a WoJ on this (I haven't read any of the tidbits he's mentioned in interviews etc.)?
-
I pretty much agree with your assessment. Additionally, I'd point out that there is support for excessive oxygen & strong electromagnetic energies.
Remember, people no longer live on the surface, but in high altitudes where oxygen should be thinner. However, everyone seems to be relatively fine. So maybe, one of the reasons why people have left the surface, is because there's just too much of an abundance of oxygen down at the surface.
Also, the crystals seem more of a focus/battery for etheric energies, from my perspective. They basically pull energies from the air, and convert them to energy that can be used. So that's a point for strong electromagnetics.
Just my two cents.
-
Remember, people no longer live on the surface, but in high altitudes where oxygen should be thinner. However, everyone seems to be relatively fine. So maybe, one of the reasons why people have left the surface, is because there's just too much of an abundance of oxygen down at the surface.
Great point! I hadn't thought of that but it makes sense. Just to add a somewhat terrifying aside, the main reason insects only get so big on Earth is because they have a weird respiratory system that relies on air entering a bunch of itty bitty tubes all over their body. If they get too big, they can't move enough oxygen into those tubes (because there's nothing to really pump it in or out) to survive. If oxygen concentrations were higher, bugs could get a whole lot bigger, which might explain the size of the silkweavers (even though spiders have a different respiratory organ than insects) and maybe some of the other terrifying critters roaming around on the surface of Kashyyyk, uh I mean the Cinder Spires world.
Also, the crystals seem more of a focus/battery for etheric energies, from my perspective. They basically pull energies from the air, and convert them to energy that can be used. So that's a point for strong electromagnetics.
Yes, that was my thought too.
It also occurred to me that they might be on a moon orbiting a really big gas giant rather than on a planet with it's own extremely powerful EM field. IIRC, Jupiter, by far, has the strongest magnetosphere of all the planets in our solar system. If the Cinder Spires world were a moon orbiting a Jupiter-like planet in the habitable zone of a star system, the planet's magnetosphere could be the source of all that etheric energy in the book. Science-wise it makes far more sense to have a gas giant generating a gigantic EM field rather than a rocky planet, but there was no mention of a really huge planet hanging out in their sky in the book, so maybe not.
-
Due to tidal locking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Occurrence), if Spire Albion is located in a moon orbiting a gas giant, the planet would either always show up in the sky, or would never show up in the sky. So the lack of mention of a huge planet hanging out in the sky doesn't necessarily invalidate the moon around a gas giant hypothesis.
I really like this idea.
-
Remember there is a moon in the sky. We don't know if it is our moon, but there is "a moon".
-
It seems pretty clear that iron rusts faster in the Cinder Spires world than it does here, which is kind of interesting. There are a number of things that can affect corrosion rates but a lot of them are not compatible with human life. As far as I can tell there are only three things that could make iron rust faster in an environment suitable for humans: 1) there are a lot of salt particulates in the air (like when you're at the beach). This seems unlikely since salt doesn't stay in air very easily and tends to either fall out directly or get rained out. There would need to be some constant and omnipresent source spitting salt into the atmosphere all over the world (oceans couldn't do it for obvious reasons) which just makes no sense. 2) There is a higher concentration of oxygen on that world than on Earth. This is possible within a certain range and it surely would make the danger of fire a lot scarier. 3) Whatever planet they are on has an insanely strong electromagnetic field. Running an electrical current through iron will absolutely corrode it more quickly and a crazy strong planetary EM field would be consistent with all the "etheric energy" stuff. On the other hand, strong EM fields supposedly have a few negative effects on people, but one would assume the humans in that world evolved to handle it or they wouldn't be there. Personally, I think #3 is the best explanation, maybe with a side order of #2 for good measure. What do ya'll think? Also, does anyone know if there's a WoJ on this (I haven't read any of the tidbits he's mentioned in interviews etc.)?
There are a couple possibilities you are missing, or at least tweaks to these. Regarding #1 there are a huge number of chemicals that could reasonably rot iron that could easily be part of The Mists (which are not analogous to earthbound atmosphere by it's description). #2 is likely not the case, they mention how high they can fly without tanks and say that 7 or 8 miles is "way higher" than they can reach, which afaict is comparable to earth. #3 it doesnt have to be insanely powerful, not when there is an entirely NEW energy that is tied to it (ei Ether). I get the impression that Etheric energy is new Third energy, like electricity and magnetism, that is fundamentally related but distinct in behavior. Such a thing would play havoc with galvanic effects, so that's were my money is for the source of Iron Rot.
-
#2 is likely not the case, they mention how high they can fly without tanks as being "way higher" than 7 or 8 miles, which afaict is comparable to earth.
This is is backwards, actually.
“What kind of altitude could she take us to, chief?” Journeyman scratched his ear with one broken-nailed finger. “Seven, maybe eight miles? Way higher’n we could breathe without tanks, anyway.
Journeyman estimates they could fly up to seven or eight miles, which is far higher than they could breathe without tanks.
-
This is is backwards, actually.
Journeyman estimates they could fly up to seven or eight miles, which is far higher than they could breathe without tanks.
dammit, i hate contradicting my own point via typo. You're right of course, and that's what I meant to say, I swear :-\
I have a habit of forgetting the "-n't" on a lot of contractions as well, end up saying the precise opposite of my intent.
-
Remember, people no longer live on the surface, but in high altitudes where oxygen should be thinner. However, everyone seems to be relatively fine. So maybe, one of the reasons why people have left the surface, is because there's just too much of an abundance of oxygen down at the surface.
I suppose this could make sense, but people do live on the surface, and they seem to be scared of the wildlife on the surface-not the atmosphere.
I don't see the height of the spires necessitating an abnormal atmosphere. If they're two miles high, not a big deal. Hell, 4 miles high should be habitable-you'll just run a bit slower, is all.
(though your cycling will be -much- faster...)
-
I suppose this could make sense, but people do live on the surface, and they seem to be scared of the wildlife on the surface-not the atmosphere.
Well, if one kills you in seconds while the other takes weeks*, I know which one Id worry about more.
Not a doctor so no clue what overexposure to O2 actually does or when, besides the rumored blindness.
I don't see the height of the spires necessitating an abnormal atmosphere. If they're two miles high, not a big deal. Hell, 4 miles high should be habitable-you'll just run a bit slower, is all.
(though your cycling will be -much- faster...)
It's not the height of the spire itself that is an issue. It's the mist itself, but also the crazy speed that the Iron will Rot out if the copper coating is breached. To drive that sort of oxidation reaction requires /something/ that is not present in our atmosphere. Top theories so far are atypical Oxygen levels, some other chemical presence in the Mists and otehr atmosphere levels, or some kind of ether-driven Galvanic reaction.
-
Quantus, you assume that the 7/8 miles starts from the surface. However, in my reading it was from their current altitude. Not sure which of us is correct, but it's something to consider.
-
Quantus, you assume that the 7/8 miles starts from the surface. However, in my reading it was from their current altitude. Not sure which of us is correct, but it's something to consider.
Thats an excellent point. I still tend to lean towards an absolute scale, given how Grimm worded the question ("White kind of altitude could she take us to?"). If Journeyman were talking relative to their current level, I'd have expected him to say something like "seven, maybe eight miles more."
But that brings up another good point that we just dont know: He said it was way above where they could go and breathe without tanks, I assumed that meant the air got thinner and they needed supplemental oxygen. But given the odd and/or alien nature of their atmosphere (Ether, The Mists, etc) it could be that somewhere up there is another layer where things get more damaging. Maybe goggle to keep ether from rotting out your brain through your eyes is enough at lower altitudes, but at higher it can get in through inhalation? Just spit-balling here, but it's good to keep an eye on what we dont know.
-
The goggles seemed pretty solidly explained to me. Dimly lit world, weak eyes, get blinded by an unimpeded bright sun.
-
The goggles seemed pretty solidly explained to me. Dimly lit world, weak eyes, get blinded by an unimpeded bright sun.
Except they were explicitly stated to be blocking out Etheric effects which cause Madness before eventual Blindness. Not to mention that the Googles are literally at the Core of the Setting, because he started the entire exercise on the Question of "why do they all need to wear goggles?" and by the time he'd answered it he has the setting. (Ill see if I can find the WOJ)
-
Except they were explicitly stated to be blocking out Etheric effects which cause Madness before eventual Blindness. Not to mention that the Googles are literally at the Core of the Setting, because he started the entire exercise on the Question of "why do they all need to wear goggles?" and by the time he'd answered it he has the setting. (Ill see if I can find the WOJ)
guess I'm wrong then!
-
How exactly do they get metal for their needs? Trees I can understand can be harvested even if the process is risky, but how can they ever mine in safety. The surface is mist covered and dangerous, so how would they find new mines to suit their needs. Can mines be run for centuries without playing out.
-
How exactly do they get metal for their needs? Trees I can understand can be harvested even if the process is risky, but how can they ever mine in safety. The surface is mist covered and dangerous, so how would they find new mines to suit their needs. Can mines be run for centuries without playing out.
Depends on how much energy you have and what you're mining(you can use explosives to get at ore, but not a good idea with coal, for instance. ) But sure, a large bit of ore could handle mining for centuries.
-
Do we know how many spires these mines are said to be supplying, I can under stand limited mining being acceptable for a few, but for larger numbers a powerful monopoly would be formed.
-
How exactly do they get metal for their needs? Trees I can understand can be harvested even if the process is risky, but how can they ever mine in safety. The surface is mist covered and dangerous, so how would they find new mines to suit their needs. Can mines be run for centuries without playing out.
I think that's answered in Grimm's discussion of what to do with the crew of the Auroran vessel. I forget what they were called (base of the Spire?), but Grimm strongly advocated that the crew not be sent to what I assumed were the mines. I might be wrong on my assumption, but it at least seemed likely from my reading.
-
I think that's answered in Grimm's discussion of what to do with the crew of the Auroran vessel. I forget what they were called (base of the Spire?), but Grimm strongly advocated that the crew not be sent to what I assumed were the mines. I might be wrong on my assumption, but it at least seemed likely from my reading.
That was my thought at well. He said they'd be "set to work at the base of the spire" which I took to mean a forced labor detail that does all the various things they cannot do/get from the spire, ie resource gathering like wood and ore. Food plants are grown hydroponically, but wood trees at least are surface-grown
-
I doubt they mine near or underneath a spire, they can't risk messing with the foundations. And further away from the spire the more dangerous it is to min it.
-
I doubt they mine near or underneath a spire, they can't risk messing with the foundations. And further away from the spire the more dangerous it is to min it.
Certainly possible, though between the mythic strength of Spirestone and the exhaustively planned self-supporting habitat, I think it's possible that they accounted for mining operations in their design. I mean, the spires are squat structures, for all their size, so it would take a significant loss of foundation to bring it down. And that would be with normal/natural materials, with spirestone it's easily possible that the spire could theoretically support itself from it's edges or by engineered support columns/smaller regions designated off-limits for mining.
-
Actually, now that I think of it, I wonder if spires are perfectly flat. Or rather, they cannot be perfectly flat, but is the incline noticeable?
-
Actually, now that I think of it, I wonder if spires are perfectly flat. Or rather, they cannot be perfectly flat, but is the incline noticeable?
What do you mean? A slope to the sides? or a sloped roof?
-
What do you mean? A slope to the sides? or a sloped roof?
It's not going to have a perfectly flat floor.
-
It's not going to have a perfectly flat floor.
Oh, ok. Umm, why not?
-
Because nothing is perfectly flat even in our world -- there's always a small incline. It might not be detectable without instruments, but it will be there. Consider also that even if the original builders settled the spires perfectly upright, building tend to sinks and the earth moves. Unless there's some self-correcting mechanism, there's no way it would remain perfectly level.
Note also that all building tend to sway (in wind, minor earthquakes, etc.). Yes, spirestone is incredibly strong and a spire is relatively short and squat, but it's physically impossible for anything to be 100% rigid. It doesn't matter how tough it was built, something 2 miles high is going to be moving, possibly vibrating back and forth as the waves move up and down the spire.
-
Because nothing is perfectly flat even in our world -- there's always a small incline. It might not be detectable without instruments, but it will be there. Consider also that even if the original builders settled the spires perfectly upright, building tend to sinks and the earth moves. Unless there's some self-correcting mechanism, there's no way it would remain perfectly level.
Note also that all building tend to sway (in wind, minor earthquakes, etc.). Yes, spirestone is incredibly strong and a spire is relatively short and squat, but it's physically impossible for anything to be 100% rigid. It doesn't matter how tough it was built, something 2 miles high is going to be moving, possibly vibrating back and forth as the waves move up and down the spire.
It's also physically impossible for wooden ships to float through the air due to the powers of magic crystals, but I don't see you complaining about that....
-
Could it be possible the spires absorbs the kinetic energy from vibration and use it to power some of its features?
-
It's also physically impossible for wooden ships to float through the air due to the powers of magic crystals, but I don't see you complaining about that....
I don't think I consider it a complaint as much as an observation, esp. since I don't believe this is contradicted by anything in the text.
As to your point, sure, Jim can invent any magic/physics rules he wants, but the general way these things go is that you introduce very few changes to the universe and then assume everything else is consistent. So yes, magic crystals, but gravity still works, electricity needs to be conducted, material still have finite tensile strength and the Right Hand Rule is in effect until we see explicitly otherwise.
To put it another way, there is a range of fantasy type works ranging from the very "soft" fantasy of Harry Potter where one doesn't look to carefully at inconsistencies to the "hard" ones of Alera and (as far as we have seen) The Cinder Spires where except for a few stated rule changes, everything can be derived logically. Infinitely hard spirestone would simply be adding yet another technical complication that at the moment seems unwarranted. That's not to say that a future revelation that spirestone is actually a sort of magical forcecfield that doesn't bend couldn't be in the works, just that it doesn't seems necessary.
-
Could it be possible the spires absorbs the kinetic energy from vibration and use it to power some of its features?
I suppose it's possible, but I wonder how much energy you'd get from that. Possibly you could use all the flexing going on to power all the light crystal in the spire? IIRC, it was the various "nexii of ethereal energy" that was the main power source.
Actually, it might be possible to get an guesstimate of how much energy is involved. Do we have any information about how thick the spire walls are? If we can figure out how much a spire weighs, we might be able to estimate the kinetic energy in the swaying.
Heck, this raises another question. How heavy is the spire per square foot? That is, how strong does the foundation need to be so that the spire doesn't sink into the ground (or maybe the bottom few levels *are* underground. That could explain the aforementioned mines).
-
I don't think I consider it a complaint as much as an observation, esp. since I don't believe this is contradicted by anything in the text.
As to your point, sure, Jim can invent any magic/physics rules he wants, but the general way these things go is that you introduce very few changes to the universe and then assume everything else is consistent. So yes, magic crystals, but gravity still works, electricity needs to be conducted, material still have finite tensile strength and the Right Hand Rule is in effect until we see explicitly otherwise.
To put it another way, there is a range of fantasy type works ranging from the very "soft" fantasy of Harry Potter where one doesn't look to carefully at inconsistencies to the "hard" ones of Alera and (as far as we have seen) The Cinder Spires where except for a few stated rule changes, everything can be derived logically. Infinitely hard spirestone would simply be adding yet another technical complication that at the moment seems unwarranted. That's not to say that a future revelation that spirestone is actually a sort of magical forcecfield that doesn't bend couldn't be in the works, just that it doesn't seems necessary.
Yeah, but the spires are clearly one of the things that he's tweaked about the world so you can't expect them to follow normal material rules. They already break it by being an impossible structure with impossible tensile strength. No material that exists, and no material creation process we have could explain the spirestone
-
digging under a spire risks destabilising its foundtions potentially.
-
Because nothing is perfectly flat even in our world -- there's always a small incline. It might not be detectable without instruments, but it will be there. Consider also that even if the original builders settled the spires perfectly upright, building tend to sinks and the earth moves. Unless there's some self-correcting mechanism, there's no way it would remain perfectly level.
Note also that all building tend to sway (in wind, minor earthquakes, etc.). Yes, spirestone is incredibly strong and a spire is relatively short and squat, but it's physically impossible for anything to be 100% rigid. It doesn't matter how tough it was built, something 2 miles high is going to be moving, possibly vibrating back and forth as the waves move up and down the spire.
OK, that's all fair from a scientific point of view, in the sense that Straight lines dont actually exist (even light bends thanks to gravitational lensing and all that) though in the scale and context here I dont think it will become all that relevant. Ive been in building that were swaying and built for earthquake survival, but it wasnt hugely noticeable by normal perception. Similarly Ive done the experiment to push on a brick building and wiggle it, it took lasers to detect.
To your initial question, Id say that it shouldn't have any /more/ curvature than the earth itself, which curves at a rate of 8 inches per mile. Given the extreme engineering and the Spirestone/Unobtanium, I dont expect the material properties to be the limiting factor; I rather expect that to be the very reason they are Spriestone and not granite or marble or any factual material. Had it been some real material, then the curvature would have been a much more important design constraint.On the other hand, the presence of support columns in the Habbles confirms what you say about spirestone not being perfectly rigid, so it could easily arch and sag between then just like normal support beams, and they could even pre-load them for added strength like we do.
Also, fwiw, I am currently doubting that the Spires were built in place or by human means. Im presently theorizing that they were dropped for orbit, or teleported in, or some such. But to be fair, you can blame some of that on the recent Starcraft expansion. ;D
-
Also, fwiw, I am currently doubting that the Spires were built in place or by human means. Im presently theorizing that they were dropped for orbit, or teleported in, or some such. But to be fair, you can blame some of that on the recent Starcraft expansion. ;D
^this^
Actually, all the recycling discussion had me originally thinking spires were actually originally part of a vast space station. The thing is that I don't really see any concessions to zero-g in the design, so even if it started off that way, it was clearly heavily re-built to be a groundbound dwelling. Still "dropship" or "teleported in" seem very likely to me. The whole thing seems too self-contained.
-
Spires stone lasts ages and near indestructible, so it might not be stone as normally think of it. Could it have been grown?
-
Spires stone lasts ages and near indestructible, so it might not be stone as normally think of it. Could it have been grown?
One though that just hit me, was that it might be some kind of concrete, and that they just think it is stone.
/Ulfgeir
-
Spires stone lasts ages and near indestructible, so it might not be stone as normally think of it. Could it have been grown?
As in Crystals, or as in the superhard bones of some massive creature?
-
We know it absorbs energy from the ether to run it self, but but I wonder If some of that energy helps keep the stone strong and repaired. It is possible that each spire is a giant circle construction networked with each other.
Sort of how alera is a kind of genus loci and construct similar to little Chicago, the copiers are at their basic circles, so ward, keeping something away or keeping something contained.
I wonder what iron does to ether, does it drains or blocks it?
-
As in Crystals, or as in the superhard bones of some massive creature?
Grown like crystals makes more sense to me. I wouldn't expect bones to have such angular geometry.
-
Grown like crystals makes more sense to me. I wouldn't expect bones to have such angular geometry.
Oh, not raw Bones, but bone as a shaped/milled material
-
What if it was some kind of self generating material, feeding on something to increase in mass and quantity?
-
Gotta shape it, but I like the idea of super-coral.
-
What if the spire was grown with a blue print imprinted? So it would not need continual intervention as it already knows what to become. I wonder if all the spires have the same basic design, it only differs in how it was outfitted and altered.
-
Gotta shape it, but I like the idea of super-coral.
Yeah, that would be one of the more interesting origins I would think for the spirestone.
-
They could be a magical created version of stalagmites and stalactites but in this form of the spire. The material needed drawn from the very mists surrounding it, easy bet that those mists are not just water, they are sure to contain something unique, and the spires leach the stuff for its own form.
-
Ooh, I like that idea.
In general, I wonder how the internals were shaped, since the outside is so durable.
-
They could be a magical created version of stalagmites and stalactites but in this form of the spire. The material needed drawn from the very mists surrounding it, easy bet that those mists are not just water, they are sure to contain something unique, and the spires leach the stuff for its own form.
They get their water from the mists so unless they have a heavy filtering process then it's just water
-
They get their water from the mists so unless they have a heavy filtering process then it's just water
They do an aweful lot of waste treatment and recycling, any of that should be more than enough to filter out most types of contaminants that might be in the mist. The vast majority simply wouldnt condense at the same temp/pressure state as the water itself, adn what's left might well be as simple more traditional acid rains and other water soluble stuff.
-
It might simple be chemicals and trace minerals drawn from the mists, like how people say that rain now carries high levels of estrogen. Also, it might not be some thing physically there in the mist, but magiclly or metaphorically there.
Such a huge construct with with extensive capabilities, providing a suitable environment, water, light and other necessities. I keep thing it is like a living entity, even if it is not organic.