ParanetOnline
Other Jimness => Cinder Spires Spoilers => Topic started by: knnn on October 12, 2015, 02:01:13 PM
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Is there anything that explains where they get their minerals from? I suppose all the mud comes from outside, and maybe the lime and whatever else they need to make mortor, but for copper I would think you'd need a mine of some sort, unless they been canabalizing the spire itself for the last two centuries.
Also, what about the iron/steel? Iron seems to rot so quickly, and yet they have so much "copper clad iron". They must have some source for, and more importantly, some way to forge it without it rotting, to give them time to cover it with copper.
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Hard labour on the surface, would be my first thought. We know they use it for punishment, after all. I wouldn't be surprised if it was their major punishment method.
Also - Is it possible that the spires extend below the surface? They could have been built in mineral rich areas. With trade between different spires to fill out the gaps in their local supply.
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Hard labor in extremely dangerous mines (not too much more insane than all the Wood harvesting), and recycling operations. Depending on the actual chemical reasons for the Iron Rot, it's possible they can process the rotted Iron oxide back into elemental iron, to reduce teh constant losses.
Hard labour on the surface, would be my first thought. We know they use it for punishment, after all. I wouldn't be surprised if it was their major punishment method.
Also - Is it possible that the spires extend below the surface? They could have been built in mineral rich areas. With trade between different spires to fill out the gaps in their local supply.
Ya, they mentioned it at the end when discussing what to do with the caputred enemy: the spirearch expected them "to be set to work at the base of the spire" which now that you mention it could be on the surface or could be in interior mines.
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which now that you mention it could be on the surface or could be in interior mines.
I think you'd have to get lucky to find deposits of all the right minerals within walking distance of your spire. On earth, you've got small deposits all over, but they run out very quickly. Industrial-sized mines for the stuff you need are much rarer.
Nice thought on the iron rot though. There's a quote about one of the Auroran swords that describes what happens to rotted iron. It might be worth looking for that one. Heck, it might be worth having a reference thread for these kinds of things.
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I think you'd have to get lucky to find deposits of all the right minerals within walking distance of your spire. On earth, you've got small deposits all over, but they run out very quickly. Industrial-sized mines for the stuff you need are much rarer.
Not if the location of each spire where CHOSEN with it's local mineral resources in mind. It's also worth noting that they do have over-land travel and trade /between/ spires, so it's not out of the question to have mines that range out from the Spires a good distance. Presumable they have tree Farms (or at least known harvesting spots) along those lines.
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Not if the location of each spire where CHOSEN with it's local mineral resources in mind. It's also worth noting that they do have over-land travel and trade /between/ spires, so it's not out of the question to have mines that range out from the Spires a good distance. Presumable they have tree Farms (or at least known harvesting spots) along those lines.
Wait, they have overland travel? I don't remember seeing a reference to that. Good point about the deliberate placing of the spire though. It fits well with the lack of bronze we are discussing in the other thread.
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I checked and I had it wrong. I was remembering the olypian that they fought with in the Bar, whose rooms they'd taken. His crew had come over the surface, but it was only a mile on the surface, and with wounded I think they were supposed to be Aeronuats that had crashed before making it all the way to the Spire.
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oh I see. So one mile out on the surface is doable... Not great, but still something.
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oh I see. So one mile out on the surface is doable... Not great, but still something.
Ya. The sense I got from that and from some of the aeronaut's comments is that the surface is a ridiculously hostile jungle, but that it's more from the wildlife than from any ambient poisonous atmospheric effects or anything. They mentioned that theyd rather die in the crash than find themselves on the stranded on the surface with a smashed airship.
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Presumable they have tree Farms (or at least known harvesting spots) along those lines.
They must have something to supply ship construction. If the surface is really that bad, they'd run out of people before "walk out into the jungle, cut something down, drag it back" supplied enough wood for airships and the shipyard/docks complex at Landing.
I'd guess at some sort of fortifications around the bases of the spires to make lumberjacking merely very dangerous instead of totally suicidal. Maybe stone-enclosed fortified paths / tunnels out to the lumbering areas, and bunkers they can hide in if any of the wildlife gets too inquisitive.
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They must have something to supply ship construction. If the surface is really that bad, they'd run out of people before "walk out into the jungle, cut something down, drag it back" supplied enough wood for airships and the shipyard/docks complex at Landing.
I'd guess at some sort of fortifications around the bases of the spires to make lumberjacking merely very dangerous instead of totally suicidal. Maybe stone-enclosed fortified paths / tunnels out to the lumbering areas, and bunkers they can hide in if any of the wildlife gets too inquisitive.
That would make sense. However they do it, it's costly but not so much that it's horrendously scarce, given that it's still used as a Building material.
They grow vegetable in hydroponic vats, I wonder if something similar would be viable for a tree? For some reason I think it would weaken the truck wood to not grow anchored in the ground and supporting its own weight.
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Idk, wooden doors are seen as a real status symbol with the nobility. Same thing with Bridget's father's counter. I think airships are just that priceless, and much of the available wood resources go directly to the Fleet. Habble Landing is just rich enough to splurge on the wooden structures.
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Idk, wooden doors are seen as a real status symbol with the nobility. Same thing with Bridget's father's counter. I think airships are just that priceless, and much of the available wood resources go directly to the Fleet. Habble Landing is just rich enough to splurge on the wooden structures.
But they built most of the second layer of the thing out of wood, yes? A /Town's/ worth of structures above the first layer, almost exclusively out of wood right? Cost be damned, that's a matter of internal economics. Regardless of how much they charge for it, somehow they were able to acquire the wood in the first place. So either they found a way to grow it in a relatively safe location, or else Lumberjack is the most frightening job description in their culture. Which might be the case; the cost might be a matter of potential Risk in far ranging harvest operations rather than any sort of scarcity from a limited grow footprint.
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But they built most of the second layer of the thing out of wood, yes? A /Town's/ worth of structures above the first layer, almost exclusively out of wood right? Cost be damned, that's a matter of internal economics. Regardless of how much they charge for it, somehow they were able to acquire the wood in the first place. So either they found a way to grow it in a relatively safe location, or else Lumberjack is the most frightening job description in their culture. Which might be the case; the cost might be a matter of potential Risk in far ranging harvest operations rather than any sort of scarcity from a limited grow footprint.
I thought the middle level was built of "masonry".
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I thought the middle level was built of "masonry".
Enough of it had to be wood in order to burn so well. :-\
Overall, I'd say wood is available in large quantities for a huge price due to the danger of harvesting it from the surface. I don't think it's grown in vats.
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Enough of it had to be wood in order to burn so well. :-\
Overall, I'd say wood is available in large quantities for a huge price due to the danger of harvesting it from the surface. I don't think it's grown in vats.
They've got cooking oil, but presumably that's some sort of canola/vegetable oil. I haven't seen any mention of fruits, but they do mention coffee.
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As Addison suggested labor at the Spire base is something a prisoner of war might be tasked with, I wouldn't be surprised if mining was a division of such efforts- and judging by Grimm's reaction, it is not a fun job. There's also the possibility that 'vats' can mystically solve such logistical nuisances.
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The divide between layers is masonry, many of the upper layer's buildings are wooden though. I'm really hoping we're going to get some good info out of future signings/AMAs. There is so much about TDF that we only learned through Jim's comments, and I really hope we get some cool details for this series too.
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The divide between layers is masonry, many of the upper layer's buildings are wooden though. I'm really hoping we're going to get some good info out of future signings/AMAs. There is so much about TDF that we only learned through Jim's comments, and I really hope we get some cool details for this series too.
Most of Morning's buildings are brick, it's their most common building material. Occasionally they will install a wooden door though. There was a scene in Landing where Espira was disgusted to see that there were entire buildings made out of wood. He said that much wood was worth enough to feed a family for their entire lives
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But they built most of the second layer of the thing out of wood, yes? A /Town's/ worth of structures above the first layer, almost exclusively out of wood right? Cost be damned, that's a matter of internal economics. Regardless of how much they charge for it, somehow they were able to acquire the wood in the first place. So either they found a way to grow it in a relatively safe location, or else Lumberjack is the most frightening job description in their culture. Which might be the case; the cost might be a matter of potential Risk in far ranging harvest operations rather than any sort of scarcity from a limited grow footprint.
It doesn't specifically say what it's made out of. Just that the second layer was filled with "Masonry and wooden construction"
But I wouldn't think a wooden floor 2 miles across would be stable enough to hold buildings. The would would start rotting and stuff and constantly have to be replaced, and the supports would have to be huge. I'm assuming it's made out of some kind of stone
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It doesn't specifically say what it's made out of. Just that the second layer was filled with "Masonry and wooden construction"
But I wouldn't think a wooden floor 2 miles across would be stable enough to hold buildings. The would would start rotting and stuff and constantly have to be replaced, and the supports would have to be huge. I'm assuming it's made out of some kind of stone
There is no stone material on Earth that could make an unsupported floor 2 miles across either. Stone/concrete has great compressive strength, but very low shear strength and tensile strength. It is also very heavy. You would have to have arches and lots of columns along with steel beams and supports. Wood is actually much better at tensile strength than stone or masonry.
That said, wood also couldn't support a 2 mile floor without lots of supports, and concrete's great compressive strength would be more suited to having things piled on top of it (like large buildings).
In reality, it's probably best not to think about the details of this, because the engineering details are probably impossible to work out as Jim writes about it. At least not without inventing some super-material like spirestone, or some other "magical" means. Maybe they were able to put lift crystals in the floor?
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Wood seems to last a long time in this world without rot. It was stated that some of the wooden airships were centuries old and seemed to be in great shape.
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Wood seems to last a long time in this world without rot. It was stated that some of the wooden airships were centuries old and seemed to be in great shape.
Yeah, but these boats are treated and constantly undergoing repairs. The ship may be 500 years old, but I can guarantee that the wood has been replaced several times over
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There is no stone material on Earth that could make an unsupported floor 2 miles across either. Stone/concrete has great compressive strength, but very low shear strength and tensile strength. It is also very heavy. You would have to have arches and lots of columns along with steel beams and supports. Wood is actually much better at tensile strength than stone or masonry.
That said, wood also couldn't support a 2 mile floor without lots of supports, and concrete's great compressive strength would be more suited to having things piled on top of it (like large buildings).
In reality, it's probably best not to think about the details of this, because the engineering details are probably impossible to work out as Jim writes about it. At least not without inventing some super-material like spirestone, or some other "magical" means. Maybe they were able to put lift crystals in the floor?
Fair points all. Do we know that it spans the whole two-miles (or even just the habitable square portion) with no column supports? The Builder-made Spirestone is enough a fictional material that Im fine with is having unusual tensile strength and able to span more, but with the common construction techniques I was picturing a lot of cramped areas in the lower level, and lots of support columns, even simple brick stacks could do quite a lot.
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Fair points all. Do we know that it spans the whole two-miles (or even just the habitable square portion) with no column supports? The Builder-made Spirestone is enough a fictional material that Im fine with is having unusual tensile strength and able to span more, but with the common construction techniques I was picturing a lot of cramped areas in the lower level, and lots of support columns, even simple brick stacks could do quite a lot.
The map on the inner cover doesn't seem to show multiple support columns, nor does it show any change in the regular habble layout that would indicate the existence of these columns. That might just be artistic license though.
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The map on the inner cover doesn't seem to show multiple support columns, nor does it show any change in the regular habble layout that would indicate the existence of these columns. That might just be artistic license though.
*grumblegrumble* Stupid e-book and it's complete lack of artwork...
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*grumblegrumble* Stupid e-book and it's complete lack of artwork...
Priscilla posted a picture of Morning here:
https://twitter.com/priscellie/status/639622457352155136
It looks very similar to the map of the bottom half of Landing (some of the names are different). There certainly is room for arches everywhere.
...alternatively, what if they just have a bunch of lift crystals embedded into the ceiling at regular intervals?
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Priscilla posted a picture of Morning here:
https://twitter.com/priscellie/status/639622457352155136
It looks very similar to the map of the bottom half of Landing (some of the names are different). There certainly is room for arches everywhere.
Sweet, thanks. I think the dark spots on the cardinal points and center are likely some sort of connecting structure, and it's possibly those circles at the 4 crossroad points could be columns as well.
...alternatively, what if they just have a bunch of lift crystals embedded into the ceiling at regular intervals?
Well, all the pieces are there, narrative speaking. Crystals would need constant power, but the Spire itself seems to naturally channel and conduct etheric energy, so it could have such powered systems right along side the ventilation and other built-in life support systems. But if that is the case, I fully expect that system to be disrupted and for an entire spire to fall down, before the 9 books are done.
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Sweet, thanks. I think the dark spots on the cardinal points and center are likely some sort of connecting structure, and it's possibly those circles at the 4 crossroad points could be columns as well.
It's hard to see from the image, but the space at the cardinal points are where the nobel houses are. The four circles are (I think) the four spiral staircases that go from the base of the spire to the top.
But if that is the case, I fully expect that system to be disrupted and for an entire spire to fall down, before the 9 books are done.
Spirestone might magically be sufficiently strong on it's own, but yes, I would expect habble Landing to collapse at some point if this was the case.
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I found a quote that says the second floor is stone
The ceiling was perhaps two or three pounces above them,and made of conventional stone, rather than the spirestone. The humans of Habble Landing had halved the height of the tunnels as well
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I found a quote that says the second floor is stone
Nice job!
It occurs to me that it might be worth hainvg seperate reference threads with all the quotes.
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Nice job!
It occurs to me that it might be worth hainvg seperate reference threads with all the quotes.
Haha, I just happen to be doing my re-read late enough that I'm in the right sections to find these quotes