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Other Jimness => Cinder Spires Spoilers => Topic started by: Stiletto on October 10, 2015, 03:35:37 AM

Title: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Stiletto on October 10, 2015, 03:35:37 AM
Any thoughts on why Grimm was forced out of the military? It's obvious he's no coward. But he won't refute the rumors or even discuss the situation. He also won't criticize Rook. Maybe he took the fall for Rook, to protect Bayard?
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Second Aristh on October 10, 2015, 04:02:44 AM
We know that all three of them were lieutenants on the Perilous and that the captain was killed while his executive officer was beaten into a coma.  My guess is that the captain was going to make a tremendously stupid decision based on some unknown outside influence and the three lieutenants stopped him and his second in command.  One of them had to take the blame for taking down the captain while the other two got the credit for saving the ship.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: DFJunkie on October 10, 2015, 04:22:03 AM
I'd refine the theory a bit.  Grimm was drummed out for cowardice, not murder, so my guess is that the captain was killed by legitimate enemy action, the first officer was the coward, the three lieutenants (technically) mutinied and salvaged whatever mission they were on.  The first officer (assuming he woke up) would have gone with it since accusing the lieutenants of mutiny would have revealed his cowardice.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Second Aristh on October 10, 2015, 04:39:35 AM
Yeah, that works a bit better.  The captain gets killed by his bad plan.  Then the first officer was going to continue the bad idea, but the three mutinied and took over command.  Someone had to take the heat for disobeying the lawful commander (who was probably well connected politically), but the powers that be mostly understood beyond the official story leading to promotions and a scapegoat.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Brightbane on October 10, 2015, 05:47:28 PM
And if Grimm was the main leader and he changed the plan to 'get away from an un-winable fight' then that could easily count as cowardice while still getting the respect of people in the know for saving the lives of his crew
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Dina on October 12, 2015, 04:39:31 AM
Well, Grimm took the command of the ship. I think Rook was the coward but the Admirals forced Grimm to accept the blame because Rook was from a very important family, I am sure it is something complicated but also people knowing Grimm for 10 minutes will realize he is not a coward.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Quantus on October 12, 2015, 03:33:10 PM
Well, Grimm took the command of the ship. I think Rook was the coward but the Admirals forced Grimm to accept the blame because Rook was from a very important family, I am sure it is something complicated but also people knowing Grimm for 10 minutes will realize he is not a coward.
That's more or less the direction I was leaning: that he was asked to take the fall because "Somebody Had To" and he was the only one willing to sacrifice his own Honor in the name of Duty. 
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: DFJunkie on October 14, 2015, 11:53:10 AM
Wait, wasn't Rook a lieutenant on par with Grimm and Bayard at the time?  That would seem to exclude him from being the comatose first officer, despite the fact that cowardice does seem to be his MO.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Second Aristh on October 14, 2015, 01:26:18 PM
Wait, wasn't Rook a lieutenant on par with Grimm and Bayard at the time?  That would seem to exclude him from being the comatose first officer, despite the fact that cowardice does seem to be his MO.
Yeah, Gwen said that all three of them were lieutenants.  Rook wasn't the first officer that got beaten.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Dina on October 14, 2015, 01:47:10 PM
Yes. And who said Rook was the comatose officer? Obviously not.
They were the lieutenants. Grimm took command. That is what we know.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Quantus on October 14, 2015, 01:59:28 PM
And who said Rook was the comatose officer?
No idea ;)
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Second Aristh on October 14, 2015, 02:26:15 PM
Yes. And who said Rook was the comatose officer? Obviously not.
They were the lieutenants. Grimm took command. That is what we know.
Oops, sorry.  It's early in the morning over here.

Does there necessarily have to be a coward?  I understood it to be just the official story to smooth out the politics of the situation.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Quantus on October 14, 2015, 02:28:35 PM
Does there necessarily have to be a coward?  I understood it to be just the official story to smooth out the politics of the situation.
Well, Rook was there, so a Coward was present regardless.   :P
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Dina on October 14, 2015, 05:51:11 PM
I agree a real coward is not needed, but we obviously think Rook did something cowardly.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Second Aristh on October 14, 2015, 08:19:29 PM
I agree a real coward is not needed, but we obviously think Rook did something cowardly.
I'm not so sure, at least not for when Grimm got kicked out of the Fleet.  I would have expected Grimm to have lost more respect for Rook if he had done something that out of line initially. 
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Quantus on October 14, 2015, 09:26:07 PM
I'm not so sure, at least not for when Grimm got kicked out of the Fleet.  I would have expected Grimm to have lost more respect for Rook if he had done something that out of line initially.
You say that like he has any respect at all for Rook now.  Rook, the pompous, lecherous ass that he slapped across the face, twice, to remind the man not to threaten him, or said another way he slapped the man twice to remind the ass that they both knew he didnt have the courage to actually challenge Grimm and so his posturing was pointless. 
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Second Aristh on October 15, 2015, 03:42:04 AM
You say that like he has any respect at all for Rook now.  Rook, the pompous, lecherous ass that he slapped across the face, twice, to remind the man not to threaten him, or said another way he slapped the man twice to remind the ass that they both knew he didnt have the courage to actually challenge Grimm and so his posturing was pointless.
Going back and rereading, you might be right.  I had forgotten how poorly their first conversation went.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Brightbane on October 18, 2015, 05:15:39 AM
This might be interesting

Quote from: Calliope
You've grown so cynical since the Admiralty cashiered you for following orders, Francis
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Quantus on October 19, 2015, 01:40:42 PM
This might be interesting
Im thinking that means something along the lines of He kept them on-mission, Did His Duty and all that, and was then drummed out because they needed a scapegoat for some reason. 

Off-shoot question:  How did he get the Predator?  A disgraced captain with a First Generation crystal?
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Rygar on October 19, 2015, 10:02:46 PM
I suspect that's going to be a major plot point in a future book
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Dina on October 19, 2015, 10:08:18 PM
Me too. Remember that
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Rygar on October 19, 2015, 10:15:27 PM
Im thinking that means something along the lines of He kept them on-mission, Did His Duty and all that, and was then drummed out because they needed a scapegoat for some reason. 



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Quantus on October 19, 2015, 10:18:09 PM
(click to show/hide)
Possible, though I'm curious if perhaps he too is part of a High House; he has the bearing/manners, something the scene with Gwen and the Spirearch sort of established is a High-born thing, and he has the First Gen Core, which alone is the wealth of a High House (some of them at any rate).  Perhaps he's an illegitimate son, or the last scion of an otherwise dead house?
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Dina on October 19, 2015, 10:23:37 PM
I think he probably is from a minor House, like Bridget. I also felt that vibe by the tea set he had.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Quantus on October 19, 2015, 10:37:23 PM
I think he probably is from a minor House, like Bridget. I also felt that vibe by the tea set he had.
Th bit about being a proper son of Albion that knows instinctively and to the second how long it takes his tea to cool to proper drinking temperature?  I got the same impression
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Dina on October 19, 2015, 10:41:08 PM
Yes, and he has all the accesories for it, even the heater.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Rygar on October 20, 2015, 01:10:18 AM
That's probably just a British joke. Ferrus and Sycorax drink at the same time he does.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Mith on October 20, 2015, 01:27:30 AM
I do find Cora's arguments about how the military is over funded, as she is currently in the process of leading an assault on the people she is criticizing for having military.  Also, considering the populations, I suspect that even if all the cores were used to fuel the Spires, with no military threat, that it would not meet the demands of the Spire.

Not saying it is not a valid viewpoint, it just seems like it was coming from the wrong person at the wrong time.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Dina on October 20, 2015, 01:33:49 AM
That's probably just a British joke. Ferrus and Sycorax drink at the same time he does.
Well, of course there is something of that, as they are clearly British (Albion) but I still think it shows that Grimm has been born in some sort of high society, even if it is not "as high" as Rook's.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: novaseaker on October 21, 2015, 10:01:58 PM
I agree a real coward is not needed, but we obviously think Rook did something cowardly.

I believe during the first conversation between Grimm and Rook, Grimm either outright says or mentally narrates an implication that Rook is the type of man to stab another in the back.

Whether figuratively or literally (I took it literally at the time) that is pretty cowardly.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Rygar on October 22, 2015, 03:09:59 AM
I just find the Everyone is a Noble cliche just as trite as Everyone Actually Has Powers/Is a Jedi thing.  They both diminish regular people, the Noble version even moreso.
Title: Re: Why do you think Grimm...?
Post by: Dina on October 22, 2015, 03:29:20 AM
Meh, it depends on context. If you are doing a work about Queen Victoria I would bet that most characters are noble, except for some trusted servants. If you do your work in the same historical period but about Jack the Ripper, it would be difficult to find one noble person. I wouldn't have problems with any of those scenarios. And in this case is the same. High Houses tend to make friends among their classes.