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Other Jimness => Cinder Spires Spoilers => Topic started by: Second Aristh on October 04, 2015, 01:49:46 AM

Title: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Second Aristh on October 04, 2015, 01:49:46 AM
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I thought this excerpt was an interesting look into how people perceived the warriorborn, at least on Spire Albion.  We know that warriorborn are amazing fighters, much faster and stronger than a typical person.  They also have stronger senses.  All of this comes at the price of a faster metabolism.  So, why exactly are warriorborn shunned socially?

We've seen more than once that Benedict tries to disguise and hide how much he eats.  We've even seen the Lancasters give trust and authority to warriorborn Esterbrook, but for some reason warriorborn aren't good enough for average nobles without special circumstances.  Any theories?
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Brightbane on October 04, 2015, 02:16:24 AM
Racism.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Gman on October 04, 2015, 12:22:39 PM
They are not completely human. They are called half souled also. I have a feeling there is some prejudice but also some differences with normal humans that can affect relationships. I would also guess Etherialists get looked at oddly too in social settings.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: cass on October 05, 2015, 12:58:51 AM
Because, well, they're part-Cat, at least at some level.  And given the view of cats among the elite of society--even among those knowing that they're sentient and intelligent-- it wouldn't surprise me that Warriorborn are associated with (tainted with) those views.  So, as brightbane said, in short: racism.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Agravaine on October 05, 2015, 01:17:12 AM
Well, I'm not sure its as simple -- after all, it seems to be somewhat random otherwise a Lancaster scion wouldn't manifest the traits.  It would seem that there are some other "prices" to pay for the physical powers.  Helen Lancaster describes some of Esterbrook's limitations and Benedict remarks on the difficulties he had learning to read maps -- which are essentially effortless for normal.

The half-soul comments seem to be exclusively made by cats. 

Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Second Aristh on October 05, 2015, 01:54:57 AM
Because, well, they're part-Cat, at least at some level.  And given the view of cats among the elite of society--even among those knowing that they're sentient and intelligent-- it wouldn't surprise me that Warriorborn are associated with (tainted with) those views.  So, as brightbane said, in short: racism.
The prejudice towards Cats seems odd anyway.  Traditionally, cats were well regarded for their ability to deal with mice and other pests (one of the reasons ancient Egyptians were so fond of their cats).  In an enclosed and crowded space like a Spire, dealing with disease would be more important than ever (see the verminocitors).

Also, racism rings hollow when the traits show up in noble lines and presumably in many families. 
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Mith on October 05, 2015, 02:14:20 AM
It confuses me as well.  Perhaps Cat temperament causes them to be seen as a necessary evil, rather then a valued member of the community.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Aesir on October 05, 2015, 11:08:28 AM
Albion maybe a democracy in name, but it's one that is highly tilted in favor of an entrenched aristocracy who monopolize the positions of power. Children are not taught that all men and women are equal.  High House members are born High House Members, and what makes them High House Members? It's their bloodline that makes them a "blue blood".  As with many historical real world aristocratic societies, there is almost assuredly a belief that their very blood is superior, and thus the products of illicit sex with inferior bloodlines (such as "beasts" or wherever it is the warriorborn get their genetics) would be considered likewise inferior.  That said, practicality can trump bloodline in certain instances. For example, if Bennedict were heir to House Lancaster then according to Gwen that "might" trump his mixed genetics when it comes to his eligibility as a suitable mate to a gal from another High House.

In the case of the warriorborn, there is a perception held by Bennedict's own cousin Gwen that they're too focused on the present, and lack the mental ability to consider the past and plan for the future the way members of the High Houses can and do.  This perception is very likely shared by the other High Houses, and probably explains why it is considered "unseemly" for a High House to recognize one as a member, why they are not considered eligible as spouses for High House members, and why it is considered "outre" for a High House member to get romantically involved with one. Furthermore as per Major Aspira's thoughts,  "if he had been born like Ciriaco (ie. a warriorborn) he wouldn't be a major in the Auroran marines" , and given that Ciricaco is only a sergeant, this further implies that the Aurorans likely don't consider the warriorborn to be good officer material, especially not high ranking ones. Whether or not there is any truth to these perceptions is up in the air, but a certain subtle prejudice certainly seems to exist as a result.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: dspringer1 on October 06, 2015, 12:03:15 AM
Just a genetic tangent here.   Some thoughts
1) I wonder if warrior born have issues breeding?  Given an aristocratic house values the bloodline, they would avoid warrior born marriages simply because of the risk of no kids.   Nothing said in the book on this, but it is possible.

2) Warrior born are clearly a genetic recessive "type", but obviously a very complicated one.  It feels like they were bred into in people for some reason.  Either the recessive gene provides some value or warrior borns cannot breed true.  Either way, it makes for interesting social implications.

3) Warrior born seem uncommon.   There were only a small number among the invading marines.   Given the advantages of warrior born to a marine, that implies that they are very uncommon.   Or possibly that they are urgently needed for some other purpose. the 2nd seems unlikely as there seemed no pressure on the warrior borns in the book to "serve in some specific way"
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Moglorosh on October 08, 2015, 11:12:46 AM
I only remember the term "half-soul" being used by cats as well, and given the way cats view the world, it probably refers to their feline half.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Tarion on October 08, 2015, 12:41:26 PM
Worth noting that there are some downsides to being warriorborn.

In Chapter 41 Cavendish says that you can't expect warriorborn to be perfectly poised - "Inevitably, the beast emerges".  And there's the way that Benedict reacts after his injuries - It's pretty clear that he's not in control and could be dangerous.

I don't think that it's particularly unreasonable to consider the potential for hurting the people around them a negative trait.  I can certainly see why you might not want to marry a warriorborn. 
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: NutJobismyJob on October 08, 2015, 06:41:38 PM
I also think it's interesting to look at the degree to which social standing can trump warriorborn prejudice.  As someone else mentioned, if Benedict had been the heir to his house, he might have had less trouble finding a match.  I also recall the possibility being mentioned of a match being made with someone from a lower house who would thereby gain status despite him being a warriorborn.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Dina on October 12, 2015, 07:45:48 PM
I had some ideas along the lines of what dspringer said, problems to breed. But that wouldn't explain that an Auror Warriorborn wouldnę reach the highest ranks. So racism, probably because they look different enough. I suspect they could have been some accidents with warriorborns
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that make people wary of them.

That said, it's still confusing but racism always is, at least for me.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Beadchaser on November 10, 2015, 03:49:34 PM
I don't think they're all part cat... The Warriorborn who was hanging out with the tea-time baddie was mentioned as moving like a spider. Apologizing for lack of names b/c I "read" it via audiobook so names don't stick in my head, just the pictures/scenes.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on November 22, 2015, 05:30:18 AM
It seems like it is a mistake to even attempt to marginalized a group of people built to fight. I wonder if there is somekind of warrior society/guild. The Way might just have started as a way to impose discipline on them.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Agravaine on November 25, 2015, 05:58:47 AM
I also think that the more human-like nature of cats is significant somehow -- as if some cats (i.e. the ones surviving on spires) and some people (i.e. warrior born) kind of swapped some traits.

Rowwl talks about having a "thumb-paw", obviously sports a 100+ IQ, speaks a verbal language, has a distinct culture, etc. 
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on November 26, 2015, 04:00:54 PM
in DF, cats are uniqu beings. Able to freely pass circles and able to perceive more than most.

 I wonder if the Warriors are a purposely created or a side effect. Etherialists are the born, made or taught. Those people have the ability to percieve ether which cats could provide. Due to the limited number of etherialists in comparison to warriors, I wonder if the lesser etherialists simply become engineers.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Zaphodess on December 06, 2015, 11:19:50 AM
Maybe Warriors were the result of a genetic experiment. At some point in the distant past people badly needed super-power fighters and some Dr. Frankenstein had the bright idea to steal a few cat-genes and implant them in male human embryos. They were never meant to procreate, but they did anyway. By now, the (recessive) genes are in virtually every bloodline. As we've not seen a female warrior yet, I'm assuming that women can pass the gene down the line for a couple of generations without anyone noticing until some day, in some family, a male baby is super-hungry and super-strong.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on December 06, 2015, 08:41:00 PM
I wonder if these warrior and uplifted cats are all descended from their own progenitor, or a group/family of them.
 Why don't ships have more contact with cats? In sailing stories there is often tales about a ship's cat. I can see the spire recruiting adventuring cat from their population to cat the ships.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Quantus on December 07, 2015, 03:18:37 PM
I wonder if these warrior and uplifted cats are all descended from their own progenitor, or a group/family of them.
 Why don't ships have more contact with cats? In sailing stories there is often tales about a ship's cat. I can see the spire recruiting adventuring cat from their population to cat the ships.
The only thing I can come up with is that theses cats are so much more social/organized, and only somewhat rarely seem to have positive dealing with people, that they havent wanted to be the solitary Cat on a human vessel.  Separately, I suspect that the ships have to deal with Rat problems far less than their sea-fairing ancestors, which was the primary reason for domesticated cats on board.   
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Brightbane on December 07, 2015, 06:23:14 PM
Cats are on ships to deal with the rat population that invariably shows up. Maybe there aren't rats on that world so it never became a crossover?
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on December 07, 2015, 10:48:33 PM
Cats deal with almost any small pest that t.hreatens cargo or supplies.

If warriors are a bloodline thing, then I would expect for there to be warrior based houses to augement the noble ones. Even if it is not a dominant heritage, those that don't express would still be able to apply for the spire reach guard or military service, so be known as a militant family.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Quantus on December 08, 2015, 02:01:14 PM
Cats deal with almost any small pest that t.hreatens cargo or supplies.

If warriors are a bloodline thing, then I would expect for there to be warrior based houses to augement the noble ones. Even if it is not a dominant heritage, those that don't express would still be able to apply for the spire reach guard or military service, so be known as a militant family.
Benny was from a splinter/branch Family of gwen's yes?  I wonder if they have a higher tendancy of Warrior-born?  Given that Gwen mentioned a Warriorborn would be an acceptable mate if he were the actual heir to the house, I have to think it can manifest unexpectedly in, so perhaps it doesnt breed particularly true, or at least doesnt manifest reliably?
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on December 09, 2015, 03:21:37 AM
Nobility often intermingled with warrior families. Their ancestors rewarded for their actions in battle. But I would think they would be eager to marry daughters to warriors, to bolster their influence and power.
 I can see them making advantageous marriages in the cadet lines, so even if the high nobility disdain them, the lower ones would be eager to accept them.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Quantus on December 09, 2015, 02:54:59 PM
Nobility often intermingled with warrior families. Their ancestors rewarded for their actions in battle. But I would think they would be eager to marry daughters to warriors, to bolster their influence and power.
 I can see them making advantageous marriages in the cadet lines, so even if the high nobility disdain them, the lower ones would be eager to accept them.
Depending on the pervasive levels of the racism involve, you may well be right, from a logical standpoint.  But racism and logic...?
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on December 10, 2015, 06:14:35 AM
It is one thing to be racist to a minority or underclass, it is another to act in such a manner to people who are literally made to fight. Even if they are nobility, don't mess with those whose duties keep you in power. Sure there might be idiot but eventually enought will be killed, that the nobility will have removed all those too prejudiced to survive.
Title: Re: Social Status of Warriorborn
Post by: Silentbrick on April 18, 2019, 09:17:51 PM
I didn't really notice anyone digging into what struck me as the immediate answer to why.  Warriorborn are effectively genetically engineered super soldiers.  Yes they are useful and make excellent guards but the fact they are only partly human.  The Saurons from Pournelle's CoDominium series is a good example of why normals might fear them.