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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: megarows on June 28, 2015, 07:55:00 AM

Title: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on June 28, 2015, 07:55:00 AM
Introduction

This is an attempt to list information about the origin and meaning of the names of the angel-type characters in DF.  (more...)
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1. Named Archangels, with Grace
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2. Unnamed Archangels, Fallen
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3. Named Angels, with Grace
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4. Named Angels, Fallen (Major/Recurring)
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5. Unnamed Angels, Fallen (Major/Recurring)
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6. Named Angels, Fallen (Minor)
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Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Warden John Marcone on June 28, 2015, 08:58:25 AM
Lucifer's angel name is Samael.  Lucifer means "Morningstar" if I'm recalling right, its a nickname.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Snark Knight on June 28, 2015, 03:12:22 PM
Well, you can fill in Namshiel's combat form. Spiky, skeletal, bony protrusions.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: peregrine on June 28, 2015, 03:27:30 PM
Satan=Samael is a non standard reading, though so is the Dresden Files.

Also, An+Uriel is missing the D there, and Duriel is Hebrew for "God is my home" or "I live in Heaven" or something similar.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on June 28, 2015, 05:38:28 PM
Lucifer's angel name is Samael.  Lucifer means "Morningstar" if I'm recalling right, its a nickname.

Samael was an Archangel of Death, one of 7 in Rabbinic Judaism.  It translates to Venom/Poison of God. He's a Tempter and sometimes identified with the Serpent in the Garden, but never as Luficer directly that I can find. 
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Second Aristh on June 28, 2015, 07:04:00 PM
As far as Saluriel goes considering the snake theme, it's probably a reference to Dr Who's Silurian race of reptile people.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Dina on June 28, 2015, 07:55:49 PM
Silurian is not only a DW thing. It's a geological age. Also, siluriformes is the order of the catfishes (order as a taxon). But I don't think Saluriel is a reference to that.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on June 28, 2015, 11:59:19 PM
At some point lucifer is called 'the darkest shadow' but I haven't a clue where that was book wise atm. Well, the devil or whatever, I know it was referring to him specifically is my point.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Griffyn612 on June 29, 2015, 02:01:30 AM
At some point lucifer is called 'the darkest shadow' but I haven't a clue where that was book wise atm. Well, the devil or whatever, I know it was referring to him specifically is my point.
I don't recall that.  I remember him being mentioned only twice.  The first in FM by Chauncy, who called him "the Dark Prince", and then in SmF, when Harry calls him "the Prince of fucking Darkness".  I just did a quick text search of the 15 books + SJ, and there were no results for "darkest shadow".  It might have been in one of the short stories not included in SJ.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on June 29, 2015, 02:04:30 AM
I don't recall that.  I remember him being mentioned only twice.  The first in FM by Chauncy, who called him "the Dark Prince", and then in SmF, when Harry calls him "the Prince of fucking Darkness".  I just did a quick text search of the 15 books + SJ, and there were no results for "darkest shadow".  It might have been in one of the short stories not included in SJ.
i'll look, might not find it for a few days... It's in a side convo somewhere, like with luccio in smf, it exists though cause it struck me sideways after hhwb was called hunter OF shadows in BR.

Do you mean to say you skimmed 15 plus books on my account  ??? Sorry.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Eldest Gruff on June 29, 2015, 02:09:07 AM
I don't recall that.  I remember him being mentioned only twice.  The first in FM by Chauncy, who called him "the Dark Prince", and then in SmF, when Harry calls him "the Prince of fucking Darkness".  I just did a quick text search of the 15 books + SJ, and there were no results for "darkest shadow".  It might have been in one of the short stories not included in SJ.

And the offhanded mention in SG about the last time an archangel Falling there were 'extended consequences'.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Griffyn612 on June 29, 2015, 02:48:35 AM
If you expand source roots, we can possibly find some more.

Salur/Alur from Malay1 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/salur), which means "flow/move like liquid" (vaguely snake-like). 

Ima from Hungarian2 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ima) gets you "Prayer", as in praying mantis form for Imariel.

Akar from Malay3 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/akar) gets you "plant root".  Akariel is described as dark, big, and furry, but that's it.  There's a possibility that its actually a plant-like form, and the "fur" is actually a lot of root hairs all across the body.  Seems like a stretch, but I haven't seen anything else.

Nam from Vietnamese4 (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nam) means "man".  Thorned Namshiel is said to look like a human skeleton with bone spurs at its joints.  It could be a proto-man form.

Urumviel is the only name+description we have.  Ur, Uru, Urum, Rum, and Um don't seem to have any roots similar to the description of leathery plates on the spine.  The first thing I think of is a stegosaurus, with the Greek usage of saurus meaning lizard-like.  Borrow the -uru- from saurus... maybe...
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: peregrine on June 29, 2015, 03:57:06 AM
I think when someone is trying to summon HWWB, they call him something like "darkest shadow."

Also, in Small Favor, when Eldest Gruff is chatting with Harry after killing Magog, he refers to the Denarians as "Servants of the darkest shadow."
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Griffyn612 on June 29, 2015, 05:00:03 AM
I think when someone is trying to summon HWWB, they call him something like "darkest shadow."

Also, in Small Favor, when Eldest Gruff is chatting with Harry after killing Magog, he refers to the Denarians as "Servants of the darkest shadow."
I just checked.  Gruff actually does say it in SmF.  My text search is failing to find that string. “Hast thou asked why the wicked Queen of Winter would wish thee to prevent Marcone from being taken by those servants of the darkest shadow? Why she who embodies destruction and death would wish to protect and preserve the Archive?” - Butcher, Jim (2009-03-03). Small Favor: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 374). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Now we just have to question whether he's referring to Lucifer, or referring to Nicodemus controlling the other Denarians and having them do his dirty work.  One's the master of shadows, and the other is the Prince of Darkness. 

As for the summoning of Behind, here's what Marge says:  “While here we wait, O hunter of the shadows! We who yearn for your shadow to fall upon our enemy! We who cry out in need for thy strength, O Lord of Slowest Terror! May your right arm come to us! Send unto us your captain of destruction! Mastercraftsman of death! Let now our need become the traveler’s road, the vessel for He Who Walks Behind!” - Butcher, Jim (2010-03-03). Blood Rites: Book six of The Dresden Files (p. 346). Roc. Kindle Edition.

...

But this text search thing is driving me nuts.  I can even search "servants of the darkest", and it'll find it, and "shadow?".  But if I search "darkest shadow", "darkest s", or even "t shadow", it comes back with 0 results.

Now I'm questioning all of the searches I've done. 
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on June 29, 2015, 05:05:11 AM
I just checked.  Gruff actually does say it in SmF.  My text search is failing to find that string. “Hast thou asked why the wicked Queen of Winter would wish thee to prevent Marcone from being taken by those servants of the darkest shadow? Why she who embodies destruction and death would wish to protect and preserve the Archive?” - Butcher, Jim (2009-03-03). Small Favor: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 374). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Now we just have to question whether he's referring to Lucifer, or referring to Nicodemus controlling the other Denarians and having them do his dirty work.  One's the master of shadows, and the other is the Prince of Darkness. 

As for the summoning of Behind, here's what Marge says:  “While here we wait, O hunter of the shadows! We who yearn for your shadow to fall upon our enemy! We who cry out in need for thy strength, O Lord of Slowest Terror! May your right arm come to us! Send unto us your captain of destruction! Mastercraftsman of death! Let now our need become the traveler’s road, the vessel for He Who Walks Behind!” - Butcher, Jim (2010-03-03). Blood Rites: Book six of The Dresden Files (p. 346). Roc. Kindle Edition.

...

But this text search thing is driving me nuts.  I can even search "servants of the darkest", and it'll find it, and "shadow?".  But if I search "darkest shadow", "darkest s", or even "t shadow", it comes back with 0 results.

Now I'm questioning all of the searches I've done.

I'll never understand why they who control this forum won't open it up to Google searches. :shrug:

Anyway, I really doubt that Nic and the Denarians are working for the Outsiders.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Dina on June 29, 2015, 05:12:21 AM
I'll never understand why they who control this forum won't open it up to Google searches. :shrug:

Anyway, I really doubt that Nic and the Dinarians are working for the Outsiders.

I reckon they are trying to protect our privacy.
Also, again with the Dinarians  :D. I feel like the leader of a sect or something.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on June 29, 2015, 05:25:00 AM
Ok, think I added everything so far.  Seems like our mutual friend got popular, so created a new section for him as well.  I had to interpolate names so yell if you don't like them.

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"the Prince of fucking Darkness"

Official title accepted.

Quote
Also, siluriformes is the order of the catfishes (order as a taxon). But I don't think Saluriel is a reference to that.

Shardik, only with a catfish.  It might still work.  A large catfish.

Quote
Akar from Malay3 gets you "plant root".  Akariel is described as dark, big, and furry, but that's it.  There's a possibility that its actually a plant-like form, and the "fur" is actually a lot of root hairs all across the body.  Seems like a stretch, but I haven't seen anything else.

Doesn't really seem any less likely than an inanimate gate that's none of those things.  Named as darkroot for obvious reasons (https://losttotheaether.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/2013-11-18_00019.jpg).

Quote
Nam from Vietnamese4 means "man".  Thorned Namshiel is said to look like a human skeleton with bone spurs at its joints.  It could be a proto-man form.

Went with "Prototype of God" but all I could think was "Oohhhh... Skin Man." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU513suJZzY)

Quote
the darkest shadow

I'll file this with our mutual friend's section for now.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Griffyn612 on June 29, 2015, 05:32:30 AM
I'll never understand why they who control this forum won't open it up to Google searches. :shrug:

Anyway, I really doubt that Nic and the Dinarians are working for the Outsiders.
No, it's my Kindle for PV search that is failing.  But I agree, the search for the site is horrible.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on June 29, 2015, 05:45:33 AM
Varthiel = Varth + iel

varth : perhaps a play on Darth Vader?
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on June 29, 2015, 05:49:19 AM
I also found something here (http://www.paranormality.com/warlock.shtml)

Quote
In the North East of England there is another definition, "taken from Old Norse rather than Old English, and comes from 'varth-lokkr' meaning (essentially) 'one who locks (something) in' or 'one who encloses'." As a term of honour, it is used to describe "an exorcist or a magician who traps and disposes of unwanted entities"
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on June 29, 2015, 06:16:59 AM
Quote
varth : perhaps a play on Darth Vader?

I actually had a similar thought, but I'm not sure how to interpret that.  What do Darth and Vader mean, and what happens when you swap the first letter?

I also found something here (http://www.paranormality.com/warlock.shtml)

I'm not able to translate varth with any of the online Old Norse dictionaries I can find, so I'm not really sure what that base means.  I tried translating contextually similar phrases to modern Icelandic with Google Translate, but that failed as well.  Closest-ish I found was svartr ("black").

Anyone have a better Old Norse dictionary/translator?

Sidenote: draugr means tree-trunk?
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on June 29, 2015, 06:34:02 AM
It's an Old English word,  but I still don't have a definition. If I find it I will let you know.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Serack on June 29, 2015, 12:48:34 PM
Ok, I really like the work you put into this, and will be shunting it to the DFRC.  Do you want it there soonest or would you like it to mature in the more active regular spoilers section for a while first?  I certainly want to shunt it over before it locks so that it can continue to get input in perpetuity. 

Edit:
You already have a lot of bullets under the "fallen" characters, but might I suggest adding one for the names of the known hosts and or current dispositions of the coins?
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on June 29, 2015, 06:12:48 PM
Ok, I really like the work you put into this, and will be shunting it to the DFRC.  Do you want it there soonest or would you like it to mature in the more active regular spoilers section for a while first?  I certainly want to shunt it over before it locks so that it can continue to get input in perpetuity. 

Edit:
You already have a lot of bullets under the "fallen" characters, but might I suggest adding one for the names of the known hosts and or current dispositions of the coins?

Moving whenever you prefer is cool with me.

I'll add hosts for the fallen and bearers(?) of grace for the big four archangels.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: antheerr on June 29, 2015, 06:20:33 PM
Re Tarsiel - Is Jim a fan of Dragonlance at all?  Just wondered if it might be a nod to the city of Tarsis.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Second Aristh on June 29, 2015, 06:32:08 PM
For Urumviel:  Thor's hammer in Marvel mythology is made of a metal called Uru, and I've seen Urim used for a name of a magical material before.  Possibly a Beta Ray Bill (http://marvel.wikia.com/Beta_Ray_Bill_%28Earth-616%29) connection?

Also for Lasciel, it may be worth mentioning that the hourglass sigil is reminiscent of a black widow spider's abdomen marking.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on June 29, 2015, 06:45:47 PM
It's an Old English word,  but I still don't have a definition. If I find it I will let you know.

Found one source that defines Varth as meaning "A wonder" (https://books.google.com/books?id=ts5EAAAAcAAJ&dq=varth%20old%20english&pg=PA356#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on June 29, 2015, 06:50:14 PM
I think when someone is trying to summon HWWB, they call him something like "darkest shadow."

Also, in Small Favor, when Eldest Gruff is chatting with Harry after killing Magog, he refers to the Denarians as "Servants of the darkest shadow."
Ah thank you, I was starting to worry I'd imagined it or it wasn't actually in the DF it said that.
For Urumviel:  Thor's hammer in Marvel mythology is made of a metal called Uru, and I've seen Urim used for a name of a magical material before.  Possibly a Beta Ray Bill (http://marvel.wikia.com/Beta_Ray_Bill_%28Earth-616%29) connection?

Also for Lasciel, it may be worth mentioning that the hourglass sigil is reminiscent of a black widow spider's abdomen marking.
The hourglass symbol I figured might have something to do with the eyes of the dark Magician Raistlin Majere., from dragon lance fame. One of if not the most famous fallen wizard type. figure it was a reference to the 'truth' of how he was corrupted. Jims a fan, but I can't remember the authers name atm.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on June 29, 2015, 06:54:53 PM
Found one source that defines Varth as meaning "A wonder" (https://books.google.com/books?id=ts5EAAAAcAAJ&dq=varth%20old%20english&pg=PA356#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Or it could be related to the word vardlokkur (https://wanderingwomanwondering.wordpress.com/2011/08/26/vardlokkur-song-of-seidhr/).

Or this definition (http://wearewalkinginbeauty.org/Walking_in_Beauty/Blog/Entries/2014/2/21_Definitions.html):

Quote
    vardlokkur (varth-lokk-ur) - 1. The Warder’s Song; warding charm, ward–allure, ward-entice. 2. Lulling, sight/vision inducing spirit songs. Warding songs used in seidr work. A special gift given to the MOs who come to a seidr. 3. A singer of vardlokkur. 4. A person who opens and closes fetters and locks. 5. One who has the power of binding and releasing spirits using runes. 6. A protector of the Gates. 7. A family’s traditional song used in the home when folks were sitting out with the ancestors to say hello and name their needs.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Second Aristh on June 29, 2015, 06:56:52 PM
The hourglass symbol I figured might have something to do with the eyes of the dark Magician Raistlin Majere., from dragon lance fame. One of if not the most famous fallen wizard type. figure it was a reference to the 'truth' of how he was corrupted. Jims a fan, but I can't remember the authers name atm.
With epithets like the "Webweaver" and the "Temptress", the spider theme seems to fit better imo.  Raistlin's eyes seem to be more of a symbol for time itself.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on June 29, 2015, 07:03:14 PM
With epithets like the "Webweaver" and the "Temptress", the spider theme seems to fit better imo.  Raistlin's eyes seem to be more of a symbol for time itself.
Yea true but look at how he was seduced and by whom, the 7 headed dragon of darkness and chaos turned him to the black robes.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Griffyn612 on June 29, 2015, 10:30:00 PM
I don't normally mess with the names of the Fallen that we don't have a description for, since we have no way to tie their form with their potential aspect of creation.

But with all the speculation on Varthiel, I took a look, and found a few things.
 - Var, from Dutch, meaning "male pig; boar".  Would most likely have a menacing boar-like form.
 - Var, from Serbo-Croatian and Czek, meaning "heat" and "boiling" respectively.  Would most likely have a fire/heat based ability, with a form that might literally bubble like hot tar.  Might be scalding at a touch.
 - Var, from Hungarian, meaning "scab".  Would most likely be a nasty scab-covered form with oozing blood and puss, but not sure how combat-worthy it would be.  There are ties to scab diseases, but those seem limited to potatoes. 
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on June 29, 2015, 10:50:49 PM
Found one source that defines Varth as meaning "A wonder" (https://books.google.com/books?id=ts5EAAAAcAAJ&dq=varth%20old%20english&pg=PA356#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Thanks, will add both.

Quote
With epithets like the "Webweaver" and the "Temptress", the spider theme seems to fit better imo.  Raistlin's eyes seem to be more of a symbol for time itself.

Yeah, that's what I always thought it was, the "come into my parlor, said the spider to the fly" thing.

Similarly, Anduriel's sigil being a smudge seemed to refer to his shadow form.

Ursiel's... probably just vague, but maybe a ref to the spinning radar dish "thinking cap" second brain that Shardik in King's "The Dark Tower" had on his head.  But I don't know... Shardik was about the inevitable failure of anything created by man, of technology, no matter how well it was created (and Shardik lasted thousands of years), and with his creators long dead, Shardik eventually begin to break down, went insane and succumbed to rage.  That isn't really Ursiel.  Ursiel is eternal, the magic that the technolgy of Shardik tried to replace, and Ursiel's fall was by choice, not as the inevitable consequence of the nature of his creator.  So a technological reference in that context seems off.

Anyway, I once read Dragonlance a very long time ago but forgot it, so I'll need some more lore info/links to add that as some kind of summary.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on June 29, 2015, 11:03:48 PM
Quote
Anyway, I once read Dragonlance a very long time ago but forgot it, so I'll need some more lore info/links to add that as some kind of summary.
ok, I don't really care if you do add it but I truly believe that was his inspiration on the hourglass design.
Quote
with hourglass eyes that cause him to see Time as it affects all things. (This appearance was originally invented by Dragonlance cover artist Larry Elmore, "because it would look just great")
Quote
In Raistlin’s vision, all things wither and die before him; though longer-lived races, such as Elves, are said to only appear to age slightly, while the Irda do not age to him at all.
should I be trying to prove Harry and Raistlin are the same archatype character or is referencing the hourglass all? The way I figure it as, if Harry had let Lasciel in this is how he would have begun to view the world, by taking enough of the temptress into himself he would see the world through the same filters she does as a fallen, that of decay.
(i unfortunatly have no books of raist's anymore, but I believe the hourglass in his eyes were yellow)
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on June 29, 2015, 11:44:40 PM
Wait, Raistlin was the hero?  I just remember him being sickly, dragons getting stabbed with lances, and Tifa owning a bar.

Anyway, should be enough, thanks.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on June 30, 2015, 03:30:37 AM
Added mantle and coin bearers/disposition.  Replaced all combat form summaries with literal canon text.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on June 30, 2015, 03:43:50 AM
I'd forgotten actually eldest gruff has those eyes.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: peregrine on June 30, 2015, 04:47:51 AM
Also, the Jinn connection is not mine, I don't know who brought it up, but it's misattributed to me.

Also, for general angel info, check out Melek Taus, a major figure in the Yazidi religion who refused to bow down to Adam, and is thus quite similar to some stories of Satan.  Though they believe him to be a good guy, not evil, for his independence.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on June 30, 2015, 05:08:23 AM
Tarsier...a species of primates. This might work for Tarsiel.

(https://marilagsjourney.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/tarsier1.jpg)
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on June 30, 2015, 05:32:04 AM
Also, the Jinn connection is not mine, I don't know who brought it up, but it's misattributed to me.

It was the Samael thing.  Just reformatted everything by hand (ugh) and broke out the lore sections, should be more clear now.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Griffyn612 on June 30, 2015, 05:59:08 AM
Tarsier...a species of primates. This might work for Tarsiel.

(https://marilagsjourney.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/tarsier1.jpg)
Battle form?
(http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy124/Bijozakura/mawmag_final.jpg)
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on June 30, 2015, 10:50:06 AM
Much cuter.  ;)

Dictionary.com Tarsier (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tarsier)
Quote
/ˈtɑːsɪə/
noun
1.
any of several nocturnal arboreal prosimian primates of the genus Tarsius, of Indonesia and the Philippines, having huge eyes, long hind legs, and digits ending in pads to facilitate climbing: family Tarsiidae
Word Origin
C18: from French, from tarse the flat of the foot; see tarsus


If 'Big Eyed Mini-Primate' of God doesn't work, it might be enough to say Foot of God.

Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on June 30, 2015, 02:08:55 PM
Or even "Ankle-biting big-eyed mini-primate of God"

"So Tarsiel, I was thinking of rebell-"
"YES!  YES!  Soon, Heaven will be stained red with their precious ankle blood!  And the lacerated skies will drown in a rain of ankle blood the mountains of men!"
"Um... right.  I'll count you in then.  Thanks."
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on June 30, 2015, 03:12:42 PM
Or even "Ankle-biting big-eyed mini-primate of God"

"So Tarsiel, I was thinking of rebell-"
"YES!  YES!  Soon, Heaven will be stained red with their precious ankle blood!  And the lacerated skies will drown in a rain of ankle blood the mountains of men!"
"Um... right.  I'll count you in then.  Thanks."

LOL  ;D
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Ulfgeir on July 01, 2015, 05:04:04 PM
Ah thank you, I was starting to worry I'd imagined it or it wasn't actually in the DF it said that.The hourglass symbol I figured might have something to do with the eyes of the dark Magician Raistlin Majere., from dragon lance fame. One of if not the most famous fallen wizard type. figure it was a reference to the 'truth' of how he was corrupted. Jims a fan, but I can't remember the authers name atm.

Dragonlance was written by Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman.  If I recall correctly, the gods had sort of made a joke regarding Rasitlin and his twin brother Caramon. They were supposed to have been one being, but split apart into two beings. Then during his magic trial, he faced off against the previosuly greatest magician in Krynn (Fistandantilus). And yes Rasitlin was bad-ass enough that he broke all rules. In the game, he was the only character that reached lvl 20 (the world had a cap on lvl 18). He would even have beaten the goddes Takhisis, but surrendered as it would have meant he would have ruled over a dead world.

/Ulfgeir
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on July 02, 2015, 02:26:55 PM
Wait, Raistlin was the hero?  I just remember him being sickly, dragons getting stabbed with lances, and Tifa owning a bar.

Anyway, should be enough, thanks.
read the time of the twins trilogy(or maybe the test of the twins) it shows him being the BAMF anti-hero best. lol is the tifa thing a joke?
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Phariah on July 02, 2015, 02:41:22 PM
read the time of the twins trilogy(or maybe the test of the twins) it shows him being the BAMF anti-hero best. lol is the tifa thing a joke?
I actually prefer Soulfire and Brothers in Arms. it was a 2 book set. was pretty awesome tbh. talks about the adventure before they all went off on their own and the second book about the time Raist an Cam trained together as mercenaries.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on July 02, 2015, 03:16:55 PM
What are we talking about again?
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Serack on July 02, 2015, 05:33:26 PM
Oooooooh, someone's using the tr (insert table) command!

Very impressive.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Serack on July 02, 2015, 06:34:10 PM
WRT Urumviel: "he had a lot of muscle and a ridge of leathery plates running down his spine."

When I read this, I imagined a ridge of overlapping plates running down his spine kind of like in biker armor (http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0628/6121/products/661-2014-Core-Saver-Black-Front-BackView_grande.jpeg?v=1431630749).

But some of Saurus references here make me think maybe I had the wrong mental image, and it was more like the plates on the back of a Stegosaurus. 
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on July 02, 2015, 07:22:14 PM
Someone is going to have to ask JB what the name of Deidre's Fallen is/was. Until then, I still nominate my original suggestion, Urumiel (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,43287.msg2098543.html#msg2098543)

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Did we ever find out the name of Deirdre's Fallen? Her angel in the coin? If not, I'd like someone to ask JB about it if they get ever the chance.

I do have a suggestion for a name, "Urumiel" taken from the name of this sword, the Urumi, which resembled her hair:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5-9pSyTiM_U/Rt1PplweqLI/AAAAAAAAA-E/KOv6auPRN4E/s400/urumi.jpg)
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Serack on July 03, 2015, 05:46:55 PM
Someone is going to have to ask JB what the name of Deidre's Fallen is/was. Until then, I still nominate my original suggestion, Urumiel (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,43287.msg2098543.html#msg2098543)

That's really chill Tami.  I just cached it in the DFRC theory index. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35806.0.html) as a WAG.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Tami Seven on July 03, 2015, 07:20:34 PM
That's really chill Tami.  I just cached it in the DFRC theory index. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35806.0.html) as a WAG.

That made my day. Thanks.   :)
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Dina on July 03, 2015, 08:30:09 PM
Perhaps Anduriel is just a mix of Andariel and Duriel, from Diablo games  :D
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on July 03, 2015, 11:39:04 PM
Oooooooh, someone's using the tr (insert table) command!

Very impressive.

Fair warning on that, as I found out the hard way: there doesn't appear to be a way to control any table/tr/td attributes or styles, especially nowrap, or style="white-space: nowrap" in HTML5, and   didn't seem possible either.

So, for long lines of text, they'll cause the first label column to have decreased width, wrap, and look inconsistent.  I had to manually linebreak and flow them.  It's not quite 100% on an iPad in portrait now, but it's close.

Done deal now, but something to keep in mind if you want to convert a list to a table.

edit: on a completely unrelated sidenote, a strategy/TD game on my iPad (Kingdom Rush: Origins) got an update with a new hero character, a fallen angel.  Named Lilith.  "Noooooooo!"

edit2: added Deirdre's coin with Tami's theory and Dina's etymology to Anduriel.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Serack on July 04, 2015, 04:09:38 PM
Fair warning on that, as I found out the hard way: there doesn't appear to be a way to control any table/tr/td attributes or styles, especially nowrap, or style="white-space: nowrap" in HTML5, and   didn't seem possible either.

So, for long lines of text, they'll cause the first label column to have decreased width, wrap, and look inconsistent.  I had to manually linebreak and flow them.  It's not quite 100% on an iPad in portrait now, but it's close.

Done deal now, but something to keep in mind if you want to convert a list to a table.

edit: on a completely unrelated sidenote, a strategy/TD game on my iPad (Kingdom Rush: Origins) got an update with a new hero character, a fallen angel.  Named Lilith.  "Noooooooo!"

edit2: added Deirdre's coin with Tami's theory and Dina's etymology to Anduriel.

I especially like how you used colors and alignment.  Here's one of my attempts at using tables.

Jim's Author/book recommendations (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28458.0.html)

The only formatting I might have done differently is that since the list is so long, compartmentalize each numbered section into a spoiler code so that they can  be expanded or compressed individually.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on July 04, 2015, 11:36:51 PM
I especially like how you used colors and alignment.  Here's one of my attempts at using tables.

Jim's Author/book recommendations (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28458.0.html)

The only formatting I might have done differently is that since the list is so long, compartmentalize each numbered section into a spoiler code so that they can  be expanded or compressed individually.

Did that for the intro but need to reflow everything for the rest because the spoiler tags add horizontal padding.

FYI, I found the Unicode non-breaking space will prevent wrapping in these tables.  It is the character " " instead of " ".
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on July 05, 2015, 08:50:50 AM
@Serack: Done (spoiler tags / text reflow).  As yet another caveat, the Unicode nbsps revert to plain spaces when you edit and have to be reinserted, so I'd recommend saving in an external text editor if you ever go that route.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Serack on July 06, 2015, 12:00:22 AM
Thanks for the info, I've archived it in my own personal "sandbox" (literally I have it labeled that) where I hash out stuff like that for forum posts.

I would save it in my official forum advice topic (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,31158.0.html), except you are the only other person I have ever seen that was interested in tables, and that topic is an "FAQ"
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on July 06, 2015, 02:02:59 PM
Thanks for the info, I've archived it in my own personal "sandbox" (literally I have it labeled that) where I hash out stuff like that for forum posts.

I would save it in my official forum advice topic (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,31158.0.html), except you are the only other person I have ever seen that was interested in tables, and that topic is an "FAQ"
Im interested, just have so far been too incompetent to make them work properly 
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Foxed on July 06, 2015, 03:43:27 PM
edit: on a completely unrelated sidenote, a strategy/TD game on my iPad (Kingdom Rush: Origins) got an update with a new hero character, a fallen angel.  Named Lilith.  "Noooooooo!"

Lilith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith) is... not quite a fallen angel, per folklore. I imagine her as the progenitor of the Whites, actually.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on July 06, 2015, 08:27:16 PM
Might be something to that, Lilith was originally Mesopotamian and the WCVs speak ancient Etruscan.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on July 06, 2015, 08:34:48 PM
Might be something to that, Lilith was originally Mesopotamian and the WCVs speak ancient Etruscan.
Not that I disagree with the possibility, but wasn't the Etruscan civilization in modern day Italy, whereas Mesopotamia is in the modern Iraq region?
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Second Aristh on July 06, 2015, 08:38:47 PM
Might be something to that, Lilith was originally Mesopotamian and the WCVs speak ancient Etruscan.
The Etruscans were centered in Italy, well over 2000 miles away from Mesopotamia.  The ghouls are the ones that speak Sumerian.

If we wanted to delve into the origins of the White Court, looking into the background of the Lamia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamia) seems to be a good option.  The geography, language, and habits are a better fit at least.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Foxed on July 06, 2015, 08:48:57 PM
Lamia and the lilitu demons of the Middle East sound like very similar monsters.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on July 06, 2015, 09:09:48 PM
I understand the spatial difference, but there is a link in the mythology, I think via Phoenicia.  I don't know if it applies to Lilith.  See Minerva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva), and the Ishtar / Astarte influences.  And lamia is how Romans translated Lilith.  Perhaps for the etymology that Foxed notes.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on July 06, 2015, 09:18:38 PM
I understand the spatial difference, but there is a link in the mythology, I think via Phoenicia.  I don't know if it applies to Lilith.  See Minerva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva), and the Ishtar / Astarte influences. 
Im interested, but Im not finding an mention of it, at least not in the link you provided.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Griffyn612 on July 06, 2015, 09:37:49 PM
I thought Lilith was just a made-up story by some dude who's wife cheated on him or left him, so he had a story added about a deceitful whore of a First Wife of Adam?
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: megarows on July 06, 2015, 09:46:43 PM
Im interested, but Im not finding an mention of it, at least not in the link you provided.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni_(mythology) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni_(mythology)) has the link to Astarte.

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I thought Lilith was just a made-up story by some dude who's wife cheated on him or left him, so he had a story added about a deceitful whore of a First Wife of Adam?

Would trusted scholars be so petty?  Anyway, she existed elsewhere in myth first.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on July 06, 2015, 09:47:16 PM
I thought Lilith was just a made-up story by some dude who's wife cheated on him or left him, so he had a story added about a deceitful whore of a First Wife of Adam?
Nah, nothing so simple, or settled for that matter.  There's lots and lots of debate, but general sense seems to be that she was a borrowed figure from other, mostly older polytheistic traditions.  Some have her as an individual figure, many others as a class of demon.  Looks like the oldest mention is in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which was one of the relative few that actually specified a singular entity. 


Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Serack on July 07, 2015, 07:40:03 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni_(mythology) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni_(mythology)) has the link to Astarte.

Would trusted scholars be so petty?  Anyway, she existed elsewhere in myth first.

Not that Dante's Inferno was exactly a scholarly work, but I remember learning in High school that he placed some of the people that wronged him in his life in the lowest level of hell.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on July 07, 2015, 08:35:30 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni_(mythology) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni_(mythology)) has the link to Astarte.
Wow, cool!  This is a whole other layer to the Greco-Roman mythology that I wasnt even aware of. 
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Would trusted scholars be so petty?  Anyway, she existed elsewhere in myth first.
Well, this is the same organization that at one point in their history was marketing fake religious trinkets  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence#Late_medieval_abuses)("this isnt just any stick, it's an actual chunk of the original Cross!  I swear...) for sale as a way to literally buy your loved ones way into heaven.   :P
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Griffyn612 on July 08, 2015, 12:59:12 AM
Nah, nothing so simple, or settled for that matter.  There's lots and lots of debate, but general sense seems to be that she was a borrowed figure from other, mostly older polytheistic traditions.  Some have her as an individual figure, many others as a class of demon.  Looks like the oldest mention is in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which was one of the relative few that actually specified a singular entity.
I just did some serious research (Wikipedia), and I don't see where Lilith the human is canonical until after 700-1000 AD, when she was first described as Adam's wife.  Before that, every interpretation seems to describe her as a spirit or demon.  That doesn't seem to clash too much with her potentially being a fallen angel.  No more or less than the Naagloshi. 

Really, there are parts of the Wikipedia description that remind me is Mab.  Many translations point toward the name meaning "night demon", but some are saying a combination of wind and night.

As in, Air and Darkness?
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on July 08, 2015, 12:35:02 PM
I just did some serious research (Wikipedia), and I don't see where Lilith the human is canonical until after 700-1000 AD, when she was first described as Adam's wife.  Before that, every interpretation seems to describe her as a spirit or demon.  That doesn't seem to clash too much with her potentially being a fallen angel.  No more or less than the Naagloshi. 

Really, there are parts of the Wikipedia description that remind me is Mab.  Many translations point toward the name meaning "night demon", but some are saying a combination of wind and night.

As in, Air and Darkness?

OOOOHHHhhh!
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Foxed on July 08, 2015, 12:47:15 PM
For what it's worth, Prince of Air and Darkness is also a title for Satan. Discovered that reading either The Penguin Book of Witches or Spirit of the New England Tribes. My money's on the latter, because it explicitly states that this title is what caused the Puritans to conflate Hobbamock, the Wampanoag spirit of air and darkness (and the god of magic/shamans) with the devil.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on July 08, 2015, 05:52:58 PM
Add this in with other symbology and I wonder if it's always been the negative/destructive side of whichever perticular balance existed that were guards at the gates? The only direct contradiction to this idea is satan was known as the adversary at some point, somehow placing himself in what is now Nemesis' spot.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on July 08, 2015, 06:36:23 PM
Add this in with other symbology and I wonder if it's always been the negative/destructive side of whichever perticular balance existed that were guards at the gates? The only direct contradiction to this idea is satan was known as the adversary at some point, somehow placing himself in what is now Nemesis' spot.
I really dont think that is the Case here.  I think that Adversay is specifically not a Name of any kind, but is instead intentionally more generic.  It's the reason Mother Summer said it was safe to use that term rather than a Name.   

For that Matter Im not convinced the Outsider nemesis has anything specific to do with the Greco-Roman deity, Name notwithstanding
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on July 08, 2015, 07:25:59 PM
The adversary  concept applied to him as the accuser, before his fall as an officiary of heaven still, like its a divine post or maybe Mantle. And yes it's safer to refer to them as their role instead of saying lucifer the accuser, the adversary.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on July 08, 2015, 09:42:19 PM
The adversary  concept applied to him as the accuser, before his fall as an officiary of heaven still, like its a divine post or maybe Mantle. And yes it's safer to refer to them as their role instead of saying lucifer the accuser, the adversary.
precisely.  The reason it's safer is, I think, the same as the reason it was safer to refer to Hades as The Client: it's non-specific.  Thus the implication of using The Adversary as a safe alterative to Nemesis is that it is a Non-specific role rather than a specific Name/Title.  Thus, in turn, this suggest that we cannot link Nemesis and Satan on the grounds of that term's usage alone. 

Not saying Lucy isnt on his side of the Outsiders, just that we dont know.  And that I hope Not, because I want Nic to pull a pseudo-Vader and be forced into a Team up with Haryr to fight hte Outsider invasion.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on July 08, 2015, 09:59:00 PM
We can't link N and Lucy but we can link the Advesary in its self same role. Like its a broad term and nonspecific but it's still a denomination af a specific thing. Other times in DF it's been said of things as 'their adversary'. A way to specify it as apposite to a specific thing. By calling it THE adversary you note a specific thing applied across a broad whole. E.g. Hannible was the adversary of Rome, he could have been called as much and it fits, later(iirc) Spartacus became Romes most notorious adversary. And since he's fulfilling the same role, Romans calling him the adversary makes sense. Lucy was the adversary, now literally everything seems to be stalked as Lea put it by the same 'adversary' so regardless it's filling th same role even if it's not quite the same. Same mantle different human memory attached to it.
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: Quantus on July 08, 2015, 10:15:51 PM
We can't link N and Lucy but we can link the Advesary in its self same role. Like its a broad term and nonspecific but it's still a denomination af a specific thing. Other times in DF it's been said of things as 'their adversary'. A way to specify it as apposite to a specific thing. By calling it THE adversary you note a specific thing applied across a broad whole. E.g. Hannible was the adversary of Rome, he could have been called as much and it fits, later(iirc) Spartacus became Romes most notorious adversary. And since he's fulfilling the same role, Romans calling him the adversary makes sense. Lucy was the adversary, now literally everything seems to be stalked as Lea put it by the same 'adversary' so regardless it's filling th same role even if it's not quite the same. Same mantle different human memory attached to it.
True, but I think hope that will all prove relative.  Lucy was and and even THE Adversary, but he's still from the Home Town.  Ditto Nic.  Im hoping they will each grow up and throw in against whatever pours though the Gates. 
Title: Re: Etymology of Angel Names in DF
Post by: wizard nelson on July 08, 2015, 10:25:06 PM
In the early books it was still undefined what was NN and what was demon outsider, there's a connection there somehow. And if Nemesis Greek is Nfector then she might actually be from here too, or maybe WAS from here idk. Hard to say. I still view summer as a counterweight to mab instead of a counterforce, that creates balance in action here, so that N there doesn't get as much force/room to move