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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Sanctaphrax on June 23, 2015, 04:23:58 AM

Title: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 23, 2015, 04:23:58 AM
In a couple of recent threads I got to talking about optimization. But I didn't really explain my perspective on DFRPG optimization in general. That's what this thread is for.

Before I get into specific points, let me say this: there's no right level of optimization. But it's better if everyone is on a similar level. Otherwise the game can get imbalanced, and that can damage everyone's fun.

I'm going to be talking a lot about what you "should" do here. In this context, I'm assuming you're trying to strengthen your characters. If your group plays at a low optimization level, ignore me.

The contents of this thread will inevitably be limited and tilted by my own knowledge/ignorance and personal perspective. This is all just one person's opinion. Feel free to post your own thoughts on optimization.

General Principles

1. Specialize
If improving something you're good at costs the same amount as improving something you're bad at, improve the thing you're good at. Since you're good at it, you'll probably try to do it a lot. That'll give you more chances to use that improvement. For example, if you have a +1 spirit control specialization, a Refinement giving you +1 spirit power and control is better than one giving you +1 spirit and fire power. You'll cast more spirit spells than fire spells, so you'll use the spirit bonus more.

2. Avoid overlap
Being able to do the same thing in multiple ways is rarely an efficient use of resources. Superb Fists and Superb Weapons are both fine, but having both is not as good as having either and Superb Rapport. Combine this with the first principle and you'll get a character who's great at multiple mostly-unrelated things, so they can be effective in a wide variety of situations.

3. Don't make statements
Aspects are great for defining who your character is. Powers, Stunts, and Skills are somewhat less so. I've often seen people take No Pain No Gain on characters who have little mechanical use for it to show that those characters are tough and can endure pain. That's a fine statement to make, but there's no need to waste a Refresh point on it. An Aspect would make the point better, and be more efficient optimization-wise. And if you really want to make it mechanically relevant, you can express the same statement with another Stunt/Power that suits your character better.

4. Buy carefully
Just think before you put anything on your sheet. Ask yourself: does this make my character stronger? And if you can't say yes, don't take it. This is especially true for Stunts, since it's very easy to waste a ton of Refresh on semi-useful Stunts.

On Skills

1. Make sure they match your powers
Many Powers require Skills to work. Someone with Evocation and no Discipline to speak of is not getting much value for their Refresh. Same goes for someone with no Might, Fists, or Weapons who takes Supernatural Strength. So if one of your Powers won't work well without it, make sure it's near the top of your pyramid.

2. Raise the ones you expect to roll a lot
The value of a +1 bonus to a Skill depends on how many rolls it'll increase and how important those rolls are. Chances are you'll get into a fair number of conflicts, so whatever Skill you use to defend will be valuable to you. And whatever Skill you use to attack/block/maneuver will be too. Make sure they're both solid.

3. Keep an eye on your stress tracks
Average Skills are cheap, and that third stress box is really nice to have. The fourth is good too, so if you can spare a Good Skill it's often worth it. But an extra mild consequence is a bit less exciting, since it's taggable and getting it costs you a Superb Skill slot. I usually prefer to have 1 or 3 in each stress Skill unless the character has a Power or concept that makes them likely to actually roll their stress Skills on a fairly regular basis.

On Stunts

1. Don't stick to the Your Story list
Your Story tells you that its list is not comprehensive, and that you should make your own Stunts. Listen to it. Stunts that you invent yourself will be exactly what you need, unlike ones you pick from a list. And a character whose stunts fit perfectly is noticeably stronger than one whose stunts don't.

2. Focus on high Skills
There's no point giving yourself +2 to some part of an Average Skill when you could just move that part of that Skill to a Superb Skill. And as I said before, specialization is a good idea. With a few rare exceptions, you should probably stick to your best three or four Skills when buying Stunts. As an added extra, this often makes characters make more sense. After all, your high skills are generally the ones that define your concept.

3. A stunt should improve a speciality, add a capability, or cover a weakness
A single carefully-chosen stunt can add a whole new area of competence to a character by expanding an apex Skill or giving a unique effect, make that character Epic/Fantastic at something they would normally be Superb/Great at, or remove a significant weakness by letting an apex Skill address it. These are all very powerful things, and chances are they're better than anything else you can do with a Stunt.

On Powers

1. Rebates are abusable
The rebate Powers in Your Story all give linear rebates. Attach them to the minimum number of Powers and they'll give you much more Refresh than the trouble they cause justifies. For example, you can get Mythic Toughness for 1 Refresh: take Excalibur's Scabbard, which is an obvious item for a +2 rebate. It protects you from injury but not from suffocation, so there's a +3 Catch. So now you have flavourful, mythically-accurate Mythic Toughness for 1 Refresh. This isn't very fair, so please exercise restraint with rebates.

2. Not all Powers are created equal
Most Powers are useful and worth taking, but there are some to avoid. Bless This House, Pack Instincts, Breath Weapon, Mana Static, and Tattoos of St. Giles are all pretty weak. Feeding Dependency and Demonic Co-Pilot are huge pains in the neck, unless you're abusing Feeding Dependency by putting it on like 2 Refresh of stuff. Wings is better than Spider Climb. Evocation specializations and foci are significantly better than Thaumaturgy ones once you've hit the magic number of 5 control to guarantee controlling 1 shift at a time.

3. Have a plan
Make sure your powers fit together properly. Don't take Inhuman Strength and Channelling (Fire). Have a goal in mind, and build towards it. This is easy for some Templates like the Wizard, which have a good plan built in. It's not so easy for some Templates like the White Court Vampire, which inherently pull in multiple directions at once.



Anyway, I hope this is useful or interesting to y'all. Feedback and input are welcome.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Locnil on June 23, 2015, 05:51:08 AM
Yup, this looks like a good basic guide to character building. At least, I know I pretty much do all the above when making characters.

With regards to this, though
Quote
1. Specialize
If improving something you're good at costs the same amount as improving something you're bad at, improve the thing you're good at. Since you're good at it, you'll probably try to do it a lot. That'll give you more chances to use that improvement. For example, if you have a +1 spirit control specialization, a Refinement giving you +1 spirit power and control is better than one giving you +1 spirit and fire power. You'll cast more spirit spells than fire spells, so you'll use the spirit bonus more.
I'd add a caveat that if the thing you're bad at is important (Like a primary social attack roll in a game you just realised is heavily political) or critical (like defense rolls against attacks), then it might be worth it after all. It's all about value for Refresh

Also
Quote
3. Have a plan
Make sure your powers fit together properly. Don't take Inhuman Strength and Channelling (Fire). Have a goal in mind, and build towards it. This is easy for some Templates like the Wizard, which have a good plan built in. It's not so easy for some Templates like the White Court Vampire, which inherently pull in multiple directions at once.
If you have a character concept that requires disjointed powers, it might be worth working something out with your GM to tie it into a unified set of rolls. In my games, for example, I allow wizards with Inhuman Strength to gain the benefits of it in their magic - so they inflict 2 additional stress when attacking targets with physical spells and gain a +1 to control rolls for such spells, and gain +4 complexity to spells aimed at moving heavy things or similar Might-replacement rituals. Fluff wise, the same force that empowers their physical bodies also empowers their magic (think Harry Dresden becoming stronger and more magically powerful after becoming the Winter Knight)

Also, I know this is a matter of opinion, but a general rule of thumb I use to determine if a power/stunt is good is to equate 1 Refresh worth of power/stunts to 1 free Fate Point every session. If it's at least equivalent in value, then it's a good buy. For example, a stunt giving a +1 to your primary attack roll will be used at least 3-4 times in a combat scene, so it's equivalent, all in all, to maybe a +4 bonus, or 2 fate points. Assuming combats occur somewhat frequently, then its value is as good as a free Fate Point per scene, so it's a good choice.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Haru on June 23, 2015, 07:14:51 AM
In a couple of recent threads I got to talking about optimization. But I didn't really explain my perspective on DFRPG optimization in general. That's what this thread is for.
Good list. I kind of swing back and forth between making story characters and power characters, and this is pretty much what I do when going for power perfection.


With regards to this, thoughI'd add a caveat that if the thing you're bad at is important (Like a primary social attack roll in a game you just realised is heavily political) or critical (like defense rolls against attacks), then it might be worth it after all. It's all about value for Refresh
I think the idea is that if you have a low skill and raise it to an almost low skill, you are still very likely to fail whatever you do. Instead of failing badly you would just fail. Instead, own up and maybe even look for a compel to fail. All or nothing, so to speak. You can make up for it by being even more awesome later on. That's actually the idea of how the flow of the game is supposed to work.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Taran on June 23, 2015, 02:25:05 PM
Maybe this is obvious, but it never was to me and I put a lot of thought into skill trees.  Or maybe I'm missing something...but I always put as many skills into the highest cap as my pyramid will allow.  The extra skills for not doing so are usually too low to make a big difference in game.
+5
+4; +4
+3 +3 +3 
+2 +2 +2 +2
+1 +1 +1 +1 +1
(15 skills)
I'd rather go

+5 +5
+4 +4
+3 +3 
+2 +2 +2
+1 +1 +1 +1 +1

(14 skills)

That extra +5 on the second pyramid will get a lot more use than the extra +3 and +2 on the first.

And, it doesn't even make a big difference with significant milestones and extra skill points mid-game.   It takes 5 significant milestones to get a second superb skill.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 23, 2015, 06:31:35 PM
I'm oddly relieved to hear that other people have the same approach. Probably because it indicates some kind of objectivity.

With regards to this, thoughI'd add a caveat that if the thing you're bad at is important (Like a primary social attack roll in a game you just realised is heavily political) or critical (like defense rolls against attacks), then it might be worth it after all. It's all about value for Refresh

True. But generally, it's best to address those issues using your speciality. Using a Stunt to expand your apex skill is usually better than buying a new skill to cover a weakness.

AlsoIf you have a character concept that requires disjointed powers, it might be worth working something out with your GM to tie it into a unified set of rolls. In my games, for example, I allow wizards with Inhuman Strength to gain the benefits of it in their magic - so they inflict 2 additional stress when attacking targets with physical spells and gain a +1 to control rolls for such spells, and gain +4 complexity to spells aimed at moving heavy things or similar Might-replacement rituals. Fluff wise, the same force that empowers their physical bodies also empowers their magic (think Harry Dresden becoming stronger and more magically powerful after becoming the Winter Knight)

Sensible. Houserules can fix a lot of weak concepts.

Also, I know this is a matter of opinion, but a general rule of thumb I use to determine if a power/stunt is good is to equate 1 Refresh worth of power/stunts to 1 free Fate Point every session. If it's at least equivalent in value, then it's a good buy. For example, a stunt giving a +1 to your primary attack roll will be used at least 3-4 times in a combat scene, so it's equivalent, all in all, to maybe a +4 bonus, or 2 fate points. Assuming combats occur somewhat frequently, then its value is as good as a free Fate Point per scene, so it's a good choice.

That's a good way to think about it, if you ask me.

Maybe this is obvious, but it never was to me and I put a lot of thought into skill trees.  Or maybe I'm missing something...but I always put as many skills into the highest cap as my pyramid will allow.  The extra skills for not doing so are usually too low to make a big difference in game.

Good point. Ties into the principle of specialization. But at Submerged I prefer this distribution:

x
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx

Which becomes even more specalized than that one after one significant milestone.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: WadeL on June 26, 2015, 12:44:57 AM
2. Avoid overlap
Being able to do the same thing in multiple ways is rarely an efficient use of resources. Superb Fists and Superb Weapons are both fine, but having both is not as good as having either and Superb Rapport. Combine this with the first principle and you'll get a character who's great at multiple mostly-unrelated things, so they can be effective in a wide variety of situations.

Be careful with this one. Because there are a lot of skills in DFRPG, it can be easy to fall into a gap where it really feels your character should be competent but isn't because they went hard on one skill and neglected skills that shared the same conceptual space. Like the tough guy who goes for Superb Fists, and figures because he's got that he doesn't have to worry about other combat skills...but then the first time he gets grappled he's rolling his Mediocre Might, and the first time someone swings at him with something he can't use Fists to dodge he's using his Average Athletics, etc. I find it is even easier to run into those problems with social skills, where often the GM will hear your roleplaying and be like "That sounds like Intimidation, not Rapport".

So don't think just about having your strengths and choosing to go with them (a great strategy), also ask "Okay...if I choose Superb Fists, what other skills might I be forced to roll due to the situations my Fists get me into?"
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 26, 2015, 01:02:32 AM
Like the tough guy who goes for Superb Fists, and figures because he's got that he doesn't have to worry about other combat skills...but then the first time he gets grappled he's rolling his Mediocre Might

He can roll his Superb Fists while being grappled.

...and the first time someone swings at him with something he can't use Fists to dodge he's using his Average Athletics, etc.

This is a serious issue, though. Often the best solution is the Footwork Stunt.

I find it is even easier to run into those problems with social skills, where often the GM will hear your roleplaying and be like "That sounds like Intimidation, not Rapport".

But if you raise Intimidation, you'll have to drop something else. And if you drop something that overlaps less with Rapport, you'll be even more likely to end up in a "missing skill" situation.

If the GM thinks your roleplaying is too Intimidation-y, you can just roleplay differently. But you can't roleplay your way around a lack of Athletics so easily.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: blackstaff67 on June 26, 2015, 04:59:30 AM
Because there are a lot of skills in DFRPG...
  The veteran GURPS player/GM looks at the post and laughs long and hard... ;D
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: DFJunkie on June 29, 2015, 03:48:18 AM
If the GM thinks your roleplaying is too Intimidation-y, you can just roleplay differently. But you can't roleplay your way around a lack of Athletics so easily.

Athletics is so useful that I think "Achieve the highest Athletics/Dodge modifier your build and concept will permit" should have its own entry.  Toward the top.  Getting killed is highly detrimental to character development. 
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: wyvern on June 29, 2015, 07:18:16 PM
Athletics is so useful that I think "Achieve the highest Athletics/Dodge modifier your build and concept will permit" should have its own entry.  Toward the top.  Getting killed is highly detrimental to character development.
On the other hand, getting killed in DFRPG is very difficult - the available consequences (including extreme) can soak a truly absurd amount of stress, anything short of a one-hit kill leads to concession rather than character death, and even in cases where the player chooses not to concede, the books make it clear that death should not be the default result of a take-out.

That said, high defense skills are a very good optimization tool; athletics isn't the only option, and having good social defenses is also important.  Mental defenses are less so, though; there are very few things that can directly attack mental defenses, and in many cases it's not unreasonable to build a character whose default reaction to mental combat is to concede immediately before the fight can leave them with too many consequences.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Ulfgeir on June 30, 2015, 04:44:49 PM
Athletics is so useful that I think "Achieve the highest Athletics/Dodge modifier your build and concept will permit" should have its own entry.  Toward the top.  Getting killed is highly detrimental to character development.

Unless the GM will allow you to continue playing as a Black court vampire or a ghost. In those cases dying is kind of required.. =^_^=  Of course, no sane GM would allow it so it is kind of moot.

/Ulfgeir
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Haru on June 30, 2015, 04:51:39 PM
Of course, no sane GM would allow it so it is kind of moot.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 30, 2015, 08:32:45 PM
I had a ghost PC in one of my games once. It worked fine.

But yeah, defence rolls are important. I mention them in the second point on skills, but they might deserve more emphasis than that.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: moireth on June 30, 2015, 08:58:25 PM
We currently have a ghost in our game right now.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: toturi on July 01, 2015, 05:08:03 AM
For most other games, I'd agree that specialisation is a very good idea. For DFRPG and Fate games, I am not certain it is such a good idea.

Compels are the problem. Sure, you may have foreseen the problem of Compels putting your character of your game, stymying your biggest gun. But your GM can place an Aspect on your character and if that is an Aspect that Compels you to hit the guy at a critical junture instead of talking to him and your biggest gun is a talky skill, by the rules as written, it is a Compel worthy of a FP and from a gamist perspective, it is a FP well spent by the GM and now you are so getting screwed - taken out, dead, bend over here it comes!

Now say same scenario but you have a talky skill and a punchy skill as your top skills, you are golden, since you can still play your strongest card no matter how your GM plays his. You might even come up a FP ahead if the GM decides to throw the Compel.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Taran on July 01, 2015, 05:27:01 PM
Good aspects and lots of compels is actually good meta gaming.

You just have to be careful if a particular compel is going to cost you more than the FP you earned.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Cadd on July 01, 2015, 07:03:31 PM
Connected to what Taran wrote: as a GM, my players current stock of fate points play into how I do my compels.

A compel like what you describe, toturi, against someone out of fate points is generally something I'd consider a douchebag move. A (GM-initiated) compel making a PC effectively useless in a conflict is really only OK in my eyes if it lets another PC get some spotlight after not having had any for a while. I'd actually still want the target of the compel to have a FP available to buy out of it if the player just does not like the complication.

Remember: Compels aren't there to screw over the PCs, they are there to make the story interesting and fun by adding complications.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Haru on July 01, 2015, 07:23:55 PM
For most other games, I'd agree that specialisation is a very good idea. For DFRPG and Fate games, I am not certain it is such a good idea.
I feel like it's even more important. Or maybe to put it another way: it's good to specialize in what you aren't good at. What I mean by that is, you should have a good idea of your characters blind spots and have some good ways available to compel on them. Since they are areas you are absolutely not good at, you don't have to bother spending any skills on them and just take them head on. In return, you can be brilliant at what you're good at. As long as you and your group understand that sucking at something doesn't have to mean the death of your character, that makes for a natural rise and fall in your story.
Or at least it's that way in theory. I constantly forget to compel myself, though I'm trying to get better at that.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 01, 2015, 09:48:47 PM
In my experience, as long as you avoid overlapping skills you don't have to worry too much about over-specialization.

Suppose you want to be an awesome martial artist. You need high Fists and decent Endurance, but everything else you'll buy costs Refresh rather than skill points. So no matter how much you specialize in martial arts, you'll still have room for some Deceit or Resources or Craftsmanship or whatever.

Like I said in the first post, I recommend "a character who's great at multiple mostly-unrelated things, so they can be effective in a wide variety of situations". Much better than a character who's mediocre at everything, or great at a bunch of heavily-overlapping things.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: toturi on July 01, 2015, 11:43:01 PM
Good aspects and lots of compels is actually good meta gaming.

You just have to be careful if a particular compel is going to cost you more than the FP you earned.
As I read the Compel rules, the more a particular compel isn't going to cost you more than the FP you earned, then it is more likely it is Compel unworthy.

I feel like it's even more important. Or maybe to put it another way: it's good to specialize in what you aren't good at. What I mean by that is, you should have a good idea of your characters blind spots and have some good ways available to compel on them. Since they are areas you are absolutely not good at, you don't have to bother spending any skills on them and just take them head on. In return, you can be brilliant at what you're good at. As long as you and your group understand that sucking at something doesn't have to mean the death of your character, that makes for a natural rise and fall in your story.
Or at least it's that way in theory. I constantly forget to compel myself, though I'm trying to get better at that.
So that means that if I as the GM see that you are likely to not succeed in a course of action, then I won't offer a Compel on that course of action. It is simply just not Compel worthy unless that Compel puts you in an even worse situation that if you had pick up the dice rolled and failed.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Haru on July 01, 2015, 11:46:08 PM
So that means that if I as the GM see that you are likely to not succeed in a course of action, then I won't offer a Compel on that course of action. It is simply just not Compel worthy unless that Compel puts you in an even worse situation that if you had pick up the dice rolled and failed.
If you are playing GM vs. Players, yes, but that's not going to be fun for too long, in my experience.

The idea is more along the lines of "There's an easy way and a hard way. Too bad [circumstances] force you to take the hard way."
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: toturi on July 01, 2015, 11:55:37 PM
If you are playing GM vs. Players, yes, but that's not going to be fun for too long, in my experience.

The idea is more along the lines of "There's an easy way and a hard way. Too bad [circumstances] force you to take the hard way."
One of the best tests of optimisation is asking yourself, "If my GM goes full a-hole, how long can my character survive?"

And even if you do not assume an adversarial GM, you should also at least assume that the GM is going strictly by the RAW.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Taran on July 02, 2015, 03:19:17 AM
As I read the Compel rules, the more a particular compel isn't going to cost you more than the FP you earned, then it is more likely it is Compel unworthy.
So that means that if I as the GM see that you are likely to not succeed in a course of action, then I won't offer a Compel on that course of action. It is simply just not Compel worthy unless that Compel puts you in an even worse situation that if you had pick up the dice rolled and failed.

Taking a compel that will cost you 3 fp's is just bad strategy.  It's way more efficient to pay off the compel.

If I have an aspect of 'not so subtle' and want to break into a house, I might try to pick the lock.  Or I could be compelled to smash the door down.  This is a fine compel and it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be in deep shit but it certainly means your objective of getting in quietly is out the window and is going to make your objective way harder - which may cost you more fp's...but  you'll probably also get a bunch more compels in the on-coming storm.

I wouldn't compel someone to bash the door down and then have 10 baddies come on them so hard they have to burn their reserves of FP's.  Instead, though, I might push things hard enough that they they might not have as many resources to face the main objective...but they may have a few extra fp's as a consolation.

Edit:  and I should point out that taking that compel should be FUN and INTERESTING. It doesn't necessarily have to be harder....but it could definitely complicate things.  Maybe it just throws them off their objective.  You're about to do your main objective when you get a phone call saying you have to go bail someone out of a tight situation.  Doesn't cost you anything, but it creates an interesting side-story.

EDIT2:  |But....we are derailing this thread.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 17, 2015, 01:58:43 AM
New idea: post an un-optimized character here, and we'll talk about how it can be strengthened.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Taran on July 17, 2015, 02:11:45 AM
Why don't you start with some of the characters from the paranet papers or Your Story?
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 17, 2015, 02:14:58 AM
Sure. Which ones do you recommend?
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: PirateJack on July 17, 2015, 01:57:40 PM
I'd kill to have a Morgan write up that's as badass as he is in the books.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Theogony_IX on July 17, 2015, 07:19:04 PM
I am very much interested in this new idea, especially with characters from the books since I'm familiar with who they are already.

EDIT: Grammars
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 18, 2015, 12:32:09 AM
If you want a more badass Morgan writeup, check out Deadmanwalking's (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16552.msg799862.html#msg799862). Maybe add some Mental Toughness to it now that that's a thing.

Anyway, optimization-wise Morgan's biggest problems are his number of wasted specializations and his needlessly-high Weapons skill. To strengthen him I'd swap Weapons and Discipline, then replace his current specialization set-up with

Evocation (earth, fire, spirit): +3 earth control, +2 earth power, +1 spirit control
Thaumautrgy: +1 crafting strength

which frees up 3.5 Refinements. I'd invest the savings in a defensive enchanted item, a strong offensive earth focus, and maybe an Intimidation stunt or a secondary focus in crafting or Inhuman Mental Toughness.

Assuming he's got a valid pyramid, he's rocking at least 52 skill points. If his cap is Fantastic he should absolutely take advantage of that, but even if it's not he should probably raise another skill to Superb. Maybe Intimidation or Lore. To make room, I think I'd raise Alertness by 1 and drop Rapport by 2.

Strictly speaking, he'd probably be better off dropping swordsmanship completely and swapping earth for spirit. And some non-Wizard stuff, like 1-Refresh Supernatural Toughness, would be really useful. But I don't want to change his concept.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Taran on July 18, 2015, 12:59:47 AM
I'm not sure how I am at optimization, but I took this (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22322.msg1630200.html#msg1630200) character (which was a waist deep NPC that Sanctaphrax created for me), and booted him to Submerged as a PC.

There was discussion around how I could make him better but we settled on 'less than optimal' characters.  He's designed to be the social character in the group.  I'm curious to see how someone else would have boosted him.

It is Fu (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,44912.msg2152565.html#msg2152565) in my sig.

Quote from: sanctaphrax
Thoughts?

I formatted my computer and all my pdf's are still sitting idle on a backup drive...so I don't have Morgan's stats in front of me.  Dropping swordsmanship wouldn't be good, though, because as you said, it would change his concept too much.

I agree the books spread the refinements out inefficiently.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: blackstaff67 on July 18, 2015, 06:43:08 AM
If you want a more badass Morgan writeup, check out Deadmanwalking's (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16552.msg799862.html#msg799862). Maybe add some Mental Toughness to it now that that's a thing.

Anyway, optimization-wise Morgan's biggest problems are his number of wasted specializations and his needlessly-high Weapons skill. To strengthen him I'd swap Weapons and Discipline, then replace his current specialization set-up with

Evocation (earth, fire, spirit): +3 earth control, +2 earth power, +1 spirit control
Thaumautrgy: +1 crafting strength

which frees up 3.5 Refinements. I'd invest the savings in a defensive enchanted item, a strong offensive earth focus, and maybe an Intimidation stunt or a secondary focus in crafting or Inhuman Mental Toughness.

Assuming he's got a valid pyramid, he's rocking at least 52 skill points. If his cap is Fantastic he should absolutely take advantage of that, but even if it's not he should probably raise another skill to Superb. Maybe Intimidation or Lore. To make room, I think I'd raise Alertness by 1 and drop Rapport by 2.

Strictly speaking, he'd probably be better off dropping swordsmanship completely and swapping earth for spirit. And some non-Wizard stuff, like 1-Refresh Supernatural Toughness, would be really useful. But I don't want to change his concept.

Thoughts?
  Regarding the "needlessly high Weapons skill":   Summer decorated him for cutting down three RCV Dukes standing between him and the Red King.  I guess it all depends on ow you define "cut down."
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 18, 2015, 04:00:38 PM
The novels and the game are not the same. In the game, he'd be much better off blasting those vampires with magic.

As for Fu...

I think he has too many dubiously-useful Stunts.

Read the Surface is unimpressive at the best of times and Empathy not his speciality, so ditch it.

Redirect Attack and Redirected Force are redundant together and neither seems really impressive. Drop one or both.

Good Luck Charms should probably be reflavoured to work off of Contacts rather than Resources.

Best Foot Forward is okay, but I'm not sure it's worth a Refresh.

Forgery and Discreet Investigations look narrow. Are you sure the game will provide you with enough opportunities to use them?

Once you've freed up a bunch of Refresh, you can spend it or not. There's something to be said for having a ton of FP.

As for skills...

A Superb social skill would be nice, but isn't a necessity. Fists and Contacts are pretty good too.

Burglary is generally useless.

Average Endurance is a bit of a no-brainer for someone with Superb Fists. A bit of Discipline would be good too, for surviving mental attacks. And it fits the concept.

So my revised Fu would look something like this...

Skills:
Superb: Fists, Contacts
Great: Deceit, Rapport
Good: Resources, Empathy
Fair: Stealth, Discipline, Survival
Average: Conviction, Presence, Endurance, Alertness, Scholarship
Stunts:
Just A Harmless Merchant (Deceit): +2 to pretend to be a harmless merchant.
Espionage (Contacts): +1 Gather info; +2 with Yingshan.
A Friend To Charm-Sellers (Contacts): Add Good Luck Charms trapping to Contacts. Use it to make Maneuvers and Declarations related to luck, protection against evil, and people’s perceptions of those things.
Footwork (Fists): Use Fists instead of Athletics for all forms of dodging.
Martial Artist (Fists): Use Fists + 1 to make martial arts based knowledge assessments and declarations
Total Refresh Cost:
-3 (Pure Mortal)
Refresh Total:
7

Might tack on Armed Arts, Redirect Attack, Forgery, or Discreet Investigations. Or maybe not.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: toturi on July 20, 2015, 08:58:26 AM
Regarding the "needlessly high Weapons skill":   Summer decorated him for cutting down three RCV Dukes standing between him and the Red King.  I guess it all depends on ow you define "cut down."
Another thing to note is that the high Weapons skill enables him to take down targets without needing to cast a single spell if he needs to do so. IIRC, the White Court had stuff that enabled them to be immune to spells, I do not doubt that Red Court would have had something similar.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Taran on July 20, 2015, 11:37:30 AM
Another thing to note is that the high Weapons skill enables him to take down targets without needing to cast a single spell if he needs to do so. IIRC, the White Court had stuff that enabled them to be immune to spells, I do not doubt that Red Court would have had something similar.

And let's him deal with 'human' casualties like fine thralls, renfeilds.  Which is especially important when dealing with sorcerers who are practicing mind-control, since he can't use magic on them.

Regarding Fu:

I actually like some of the changes you've recommended. 
-Endurance, I waffled with.  .  I'd thought about taking a stunt that would let me base his stress track on Fists or Deceit, but He's a 70 year old man.  I thought it fitting to leave him with low endurance.
-Discipline is a good catch, though.  I just thought ex-ninja would have still have burglary.

Stunts
-I haven't had a chance to use the charms stunt yet...because of the situation he's in.  Basing it off contacts would be better, but I don't know if it would change the concept.  I guess, I could say the charms he's selling he's gotten from 'reliable' contacts.
- Forgery is being used quite a bit...
-redirect force and attack:  I didn't see him as an offensive character.  Those two stunts let him do maneuvers or attacks.  Mostly, I wanted to play with them.  I may drop one eventually
-I may get rid of read the surface.  But it, generally, gives you two empathy rolls where you'd normally get one.

Another character:  why don't you choose someone from the paranet papers that particularly annoyed you. (stat-wise) 
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 20, 2015, 11:34:52 PM
Thing is, with a bit of creativity earth magic can handle magic-immune and Law-protected targets. It can throw mundane objects with gravity, take opponents out by burying them instead of killing them, and so on.

And just taking Superb Weapons and a Warden sword isn't enough to handle the kind of opposition that Morgan is likely to face. For example, he'd need a much bigger investment in Weapons to cut down multiple high-end RCVs. Just look at the numbers: the sword is weapon 6 a limited number of times. A strong RCV probably has Supernatural Toughness and Good+ Endurance. He needs to hit by a margin of 5 just to inflict a mild. With accuracy 5 against a defence roll of 6 or so, that's not easy to pull off. And he can't chip away with repeated attacks because the sword has limited uses and his defence isn't that great.

-Endurance, I waffled with.  .  I'd thought about taking a stunt that would let me base his stress track on Fists or Deceit, but He's a 70 year old man.  I thought it fitting to leave him with low endurance.

It is fitting. But optimization-wise, keeping a 2-box stress track on a Submerged fighter isn't a good call.

- Forgery is being used quite a bit...
-redirect force and attack:  I didn't see him as an offensive character.  Those two stunts let him do maneuvers or attacks.  Mostly, I wanted to play with them.  I may drop one eventually
-I may get rid of read the surface.  But it, generally, gives you two empathy rolls where you'd normally get one.

Glad to hear.

I can see an argument for keeping Redirect Attack. But he's already pretty good at generating Aspects, and having both is just not efficient.

I don't think it works that way. And even if it does, you're probably better off making a Rapport roll. Why use the lower skill more than you have to?

(Of course, you were deliberately sub-optimizing. So really this is all moot.)

Another character:  why don't you choose someone from the paranet papers that particularly annoyed you. (stat-wise)

Outside of sloppy editing, "plot devices", and people using mental evocation attacks, I don't recall being annoyed by the stat blocks.

But I do wish the Russian PCs were a bit stronger, so I guess I'll do them next.

PS: If anyone else has ideas for strengthening Morgan or Fu or whoever, I'd like to hear them.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Taran on July 21, 2015, 02:38:24 AM
Quote
I don't think it[Empathy] works that way. And even if it does, you're probably better off making a Rapport roll. Why use the lower skill more than you have to?

Well,  you can make an empathy assessment 'after 10 minutes'.  Which is a conversation.  So, in 11 minutes, you can make 2 assessments.  Or make one assessment by the time people are done introducing themselves and exchanging pleasantries.  Empathy can be done quietly without needing to say anything, so it's a nice, low-key way of gaining aspects while rapport requires you to be active in the conversation.

I'd like to raise it, but I don't want to lower rapport or deceit...but  you may be right about the stunt...
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 21, 2015, 03:13:23 AM
Empathy aside, here's my take on the Russians and their weaknesses.

Lena's Lawbreaker is a point of wasted Refresh, because if she uses it she'll have to take another point of Lawbreaker and become an NPC. Plus, her Refinements are ill-spent, and I'm not a fan of Pointed Performance. Thaumaturgy is nice, and I can see uses for Performance, but she's distressingly ineffective in combat and not great socially either.

Sveta's Stunts don't go as far as they should since she's foolishly taken a bunch of them for low skills. And some of them are just kinda lame. Splitting her combat style between Guns and Weapons doesn't help. Great Endurance doesn't do much that Good Endurance wouldn't, and I wish she was more effective socially.

Kostya wastes 4 Refresh on Sponsored Magic that he doesn't have the skills to use. He's overspecialized in social stuff, and a liability in a fight. Personal Magnetism is kinda meh, Infuriate sucks on someone with Average Intimidation.

Lara splits her elements, weakening her. Lawbreaker is a wasted point of Refresh. Her Stunt is okay, but its limitation seems tighter than necessary and she's so tight on Refresh that I'd be tempted to drop it. It would be good to raise her casting skills.

Does that sound like a fair summary to y'all?

I'll probably write some new statblocks for them in a day or two.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 22, 2015, 01:46:40 AM
Okay, here are some revised and upgraded statblocks for the Russian PP crew.

Not transcribing the Aspects or backstories. That's too much like piracy.

Comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Lena

You really shouldn't need a stunt to do ordinary maneuvers with Performance. And if you're gonna Lawbreak, you shouldn't half-ass it.

Skills:
Superb: Performance
Great: Lore, Discipline, Rapport
Good: Conviction, Empathy, Resources
Fair: Alertness, Deceit, Contacts
Average: Presence, Survival, Athletics
Stunts:
Virtuoso Violinist (Performance): +2 to play the violin.
Powers:
Thaumaturgy [-3]
Lawbreaker (5th) [-2]
Ghost Speaker [-1]
Magic:
Thaumaturgy: +1 ectomancy control
Enchanted Items: Ghostly guardian bound into an earring (4-shift block against physical attack, 3 times/session), angry ghost bound into a violin (weapon 4, aimed with Performance, 3 times/session)
Total Refresh Cost:
-7
Refresh Total:
3

Sveta

Went all-in on Guns here. Weapons can go hang. Made her scary because I wanted her to be socially useful.

Skills:
Superb: Guns
Great: Athletics, Survival, Intimidation
Good: Endurance, Alertness, Lore
Fair: Conviction, Weapons, Stealth
Average: Discipline, Fists, Presence
Stunts:
Make It Count (Guns): +2 stress with her shotgun.
I Have Just The Shell (Guns): Use Guns to know weaknesses and have shells that exploit them.
Hunter (Survival): +2 to track.
Stare Down (Intimidation): Use Intimidation for social defence.
Lucky Dodge (Athletics): Spend 1 FP for +4 to a dodge roll once per roll.
Total Refresh Cost:
-3 (Pure Mortal)
Refresh Total:
7

Kostya

Was tempted to give him Incite Emotion. He has the leftover Refresh for it. As for Contacts, I figure someone who's been around enough to get a long list of enemies is likely to have a long list of friends and acquaintances.

Skills:
Superb: Deceit
Great: Rapport, Empathy, Contacts
Good: Presence, Athletics, Alertness
Fair: Discipline, Investigation, Weapons
Average: Endurance, Conviction, Burglary
Stunts:
Annoyingly Tricky (Deceit): Use Deceit to provoke people.
Confidence Tricks (Deceit): +1 to distract and pick pockets, may perform complex distractions.
Powers:
Glamours [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch (Cold iron) [+3]
Total Refresh Cost:
-5
Refresh Total:
5

Lara

The stunt might not be strictly optimal, but I think it suits her concept. And with her increased Empathy the old one is a bit less useful now.

Skills:
Superb: Discipline
Great: Investigation, Conviction, Lore
Good: Empathy, Endurance, Alertness
Fair: Athletics, Deceit, Stealth
Average: Presence, Scholarship, Contacts
Stunts:
Keeping Secrets (Discipline): Use Discipline to hide information and defend against being read.
Powers:
Evocation [-3]
Thaumaturgy [-3]
The Sight [-1]
Soulgaze [-0]
Wizard's Constitution [-0]
Refinement [-1]
Magic:
Evocation (Fire, Air, Spirit): +2 spirit power, +1 spirit control
Thaumaturgy: +1 crafting strength
Foci: Walking Stick (+1 offensive spirit power and control)
Enchanted Items: Shield Amulet (5-shift block against physical attacks, 3 uses/session), 2 potion slots (strength 5)
Total Refresh Cost:
-9
Refresh Total:
1
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 25, 2015, 09:57:02 PM
Does nobody have anything to say about that?
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: toturi on July 26, 2015, 07:57:36 AM
Does nobody have anything to say about that?
I've been trying to lay my hands on a hardcopy PP. I'm old fashioned that way. So without knowing the Aspects and what they can be Compelled for...

Here's what I got.

Why Performance as Lena's apex skill? She doesn't have any stunts that allow her to use Performance for any type (Mental, Social, Physical) combat.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 26, 2015, 10:02:29 PM
Because that was her apex skill in the original and I didn't have a compelling reason to change it. Her Great skills cover her magical and social bases reasonably well. And when it comes to aiming enchanted item attacks, Performance is as good as any other skill.

If you have any suggestions for strengthening these guys further, I'm listening. I don't want to stray too far from the original concepts, though.

I actually like these guys a lot, concept-wise, but I think their PP writeups are problematically weak. If some newbie decides to use one while the other players are building their own characters, they might find themself disappointingly ineffective.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: fictionfan on July 28, 2015, 02:25:59 AM
If you want a more badass Morgan writeup, check out Deadmanwalking's (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16552.msg799862.html#msg799862). Maybe add some Mental Toughness to it now that that's a thing.

Anyway, optimization-wise Morgan's biggest problems are his number of wasted specializations and his needlessly-high Weapons skill. To strengthen him I'd swap Weapons and Discipline, then replace his current specialization set-up with

Evocation (earth, fire, spirit): +3 earth control, +2 earth power, +1 spirit control
Thaumautrgy: +1 crafting strength

which frees up 3.5 Refinements. I'd invest the savings in a defensive enchanted item, a strong offensive earth focus, and maybe an Intimidation stunt or a secondary focus in crafting or Inhuman Mental Toughness.

Assuming he's got a valid pyramid, he's rocking at least 52 skill points. If his cap is Fantastic he should absolutely take advantage of that, but even if it's not he should probably raise another skill to Superb. Maybe Intimidation or Lore. To make room, I think I'd raise Alertness by 1 and drop Rapport by 2.

Strictly speaking, he'd probably be better off dropping swordsmanship completely and swapping earth for spirit. And some non-Wizard stuff, like 1-Refresh Supernatural Toughness, would be really useful. But I don't want to change his concept.

Thoughts?

I think he has such high weapon skill because he worries about breaking the first law.  If he uses magic he has to hold back, but if he uses his sword he can chop off heads all day and unlike Dresden most of the people he fights are humans.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 28, 2015, 09:51:17 PM
Again, that concern doesn't translate so well from novel series to RPG. Similarly, the "limited number of skill points" thing doesn't translate so well from RPG to novel. It's not like Jim Butcher has a limited points budget for his characters.

I'm not trying to say that the Morgan writeup is bad, or anything like that. Just that it's weaker than it could be with that Refresh and skill total. I'm using it as an example to explain what I think about optimizing within this system.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on July 29, 2015, 01:40:58 PM
I think it's valid to note that there's optimization within a concept too.  So for Donald Morgan, that concept is "Warlock Hunter" essentially.  Given that, I'd build him with the idea that his excellent evocation skills center around maneuvers and counterspells rather than direct attacks.  For direct attacks, he'd use his sword.  To optimize this, I'd have a way of him using his sword without the Weapons skill (stunt to replace with Discipline or Athletics, rewrite of the Warden's Sword as an IOP, or something).  But yeah, swords and magic are a sub-optimal combination systematically.  In the context of the novels, it's one that we see.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: blackstaff67 on July 29, 2015, 02:37:25 PM
Esmerelda of the Eebs needs a rewrite as well, given a substandard build even I spotted. 
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Rossbert on July 29, 2015, 03:11:34 PM
I think he has such high weapon skill because he worries about breaking the first law.  If he uses magic he has to hold back, but if he uses his sword he can chop off heads all day and unlike Dresden most of the people he fights are humans.

This goes, to an extent, to the dilemma of writing vs gaming.  On the whole believable characters (and non-fictional people) aren't optimized.  They waste a whole lot of time and energy on unrelated and non-synergistic traits and skills.  On the whole they are good at a thing or two but don't devote the resources that would make them 'optimal'.

So the point of the exercise becomes how would a gamer maxing his investment make a character like Morgan (or whoever) but to do that you do sometimes have to push some characterization or detail aside.

It also serves to illustrate the point of communicating in the group about what level everyone wants.  Will the group have lots of characters with gratuitous stunts or powers and broad skills or will such a character be a drain on the group as a whole.  Sanctaphrax made a point as to how it is important to all be on a similar page regarding that.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 29, 2015, 03:13:03 PM
Esmerelda of the Eebs needs a rewrite as well, given a substandard build even I spotted. 

Sure, I can take a crack at her.

I think it's valid to note that there's optimization within a concept too.  So for Donald Morgan, that concept is "Warlock Hunter" essentially.  Given that, I'd build him with the idea that his excellent evocation skills center around maneuvers and counterspells rather than direct attacks.  For direct attacks, he'd use his sword.

Interesting idea.

I think it'd be hard to make work, though. If you have Evocation, you've spent 3 Refresh and several high skill slots on being walking artillery. It'd be hard to raise sword attacks to that level, and even if you succeeded it'd mean you wasted some Refresh.

Plus, it'd be tricky to get good at maneuvers and counterspells without getting good at attacks too.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Rossbert on July 29, 2015, 03:27:03 PM
Plus, it'd be tricky to get good at maneuvers and counterspells without getting good at attacks too.

It almost has to be an aspect specialization like Harry's not-so-subtle or Molly's Subtlety is its Own Power.

On the other hand it is literally the point of the warden sword.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on July 29, 2015, 03:49:49 PM
It almost has to be an aspect specialization like Harry's not-so-subtle or Molly's Subtlety is its Own Power.

On the other hand it is literally the point of the warden sword.

That's not a bad idea.  You could conceivably get a self-compel quite often.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Theogony_IX on July 29, 2015, 06:24:32 PM
The talk of spellcasters made me think of this guy I built.  Maybe you could take a look at this character and see what you think.  It was for a heavy-action/thriller game.  I pulled the idea from the movie Maleficent, the way she transforms the bird into whatever she needs at the time.  This character is a mortal spellcaster that transforms a wolf familiar into a variety of North American animals, and merges his consciousness with the wolf to act through it.  Like some write ups I've seen for Binder, I didn't stick with the spellcasting powers, and decided to outline his magic through other power mechanics.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,43658.msg2110749.html#msg2110749
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 31, 2015, 12:55:15 AM
Looking at Esmerelda Batiste, three optimization problems stand out.

1. She's a Red Court Vampire. That's not very optimal.
2. She's got the totally-useless Cover upgrade for Flesh Mask. Spending Refresh on avoiding Compels is ridiculous. Frankly, Paranet Papers makes a hash of the whole protective-flesh-mask thing.
3. Her Discipline is too low. She can't control her hunger or do anything useful with Domination.

So I say drop Cover, drop Guns (which someone with such deadly claws doesn't need), and raise Discipline. Maybe buy a stunt with that Cover Refresh.

Does that sound about right to y'all?

The talk of spellcasters made me think of this guy I built.  Maybe you could take a look at this character and see what you think.

He's fairly powerful. He could be stronger, but looking at the other PCs I wouldn't recommend strengthening him. Then again, that game was stillborn. So...

High Intimidation and Lore in human form matched with physical skills in beast form looks like a good call to me. But I'm not sure Channelling is the best way to go. It's mostly for combat, which overlaps with your beast-form stuff. Ritual or Thaumaturgy might be better. If you did make that change, you could reduce Conviction to boost some other skills.

You can free up a bit of Refresh by attaching Human Form to your Modular Abilities. Would you ever use those powers without using Beast Change first, anyway?

You can also do without Second Set Of Eyes. +1 Alertness, only in one form, only under the right conditions? Seems weak. And not important to your concept.

It's usually best to attach Item of Power to as few Powers as possible, so losing it is less problematic. Alternately, you could make Voss into the IoP for flavour reasons. You won't be using those Powers without Voss around, will you?

I'm not sure if Superb Endurance is pulling its weight in Voss's list. An extra mild consequence isn't that great. With Speed you'll be using Athletics for defence a lot, so maybe raise that? Or go for Superb Stealth and be really sneaky? Or keep your human-form Discipline, so mental attacks are less scary?

Fire is a fine catch, and fitting, but you could get the same rebate from something harder to exploit. Then again, the Catch is already powerful enough without gaming it.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: blackstaff67 on July 31, 2015, 04:27:07 AM
I might let her keep Guns and give her a stunt to emphasize the Eebs hit-and-run tactics...that or drop Guns and buy up Deceit and give her a Stunt based off that, but that's me.  Good catch on the problem with Domination + low Discipline, was wondering if anyone besides me saw that! :D
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: JayTee on July 31, 2015, 04:44:56 AM
Well, since we're throwing character sheets to be reviewed for optimization, and I do love an optimized character sheet, here's my current character Isaac Meyer, Psy Agent (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,39145.msg2166498.html#msg2166498) for review. If you would be so kind.  :)
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 31, 2015, 04:56:25 PM
Isaac looks unfocused to me. Not enough invested in any one place to really excel.

Specific issues:

-Fists and gun use are a bit redundant with Channelling.
-Splitting your foci between offense and defence isn't usually a good idea.
-Channelling + 1 Refinement isn't a very good way to do combat spellcasting. Evocation is, in this case, actually strictly better.
-Stunts are attached to lower skills, and some of them don't give you all that much bang for your buck.

So how about...

Skills
5: Discipline, Rapport
4: Conviction, Athletics
3: Alertness, Scholarship, Endurance
2: Lore, Presence, Fists
1: Empathy, Contacts, Resources, Guns, Deceit

Powers and Stunts
-3 Evocation (spirit, air, earth)
-1 Refinement (+2 spirit power, +1 spirit control)
Rings: +1 Offensive Power and Control

-1 Social Cues: Use Rapport instead of Empathy for detecting lies.
-1 Silent Confidence: Use Discipline for social stress.

And 4 Refresh of other stuff.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Theogony_IX on July 31, 2015, 06:15:19 PM
Does that sound about right to y'all?

Yeah, that makes good sense.  I think I've seen you say elsewhere, possibly even in this thread, that optimization and building toward a theme are not mutually exclusive.  I'm seeing a pattern emerge in these optimizations though that seem to go against that thought.  At least to some degree.

You mention that guns should be dropped because claws are so powerful, but thematically, Esmerelda is just as good with guns as with her claws.  The same with Morgan.  Magic is more powerful than Weapons on his sheet, so drop Weapons, but thematically, Morgans relies heavily on his sword skills.

How would you address these thematic strengths while sticking to your optimization criteria?

Quote
He's fairly powerful. He could be stronger, but looking at the other PCs I wouldn't recommend strengthening him. Then again, that game was stillborn. So...

High Intimidation and Lore in human form matched with physical skills in beast form looks like a good call to me. But I'm not sure Channelling is the best way to go. It's mostly for combat, which overlaps with your beast-form stuff. Ritual or Thaumaturgy might be better. If you did make that change, you could reduce Conviction to boost some other skills.

That's interesting.  I felt the overlap there as well, but rather than drop it entirely I decided to focus the magic on defense (see the rotes and focus) and let the transformations take the offense.  Grabbing ritual instead though, opens up more out of combat utility.  That is a marked upgrade except where group defense is concerned.  Or maybe it just shifts defense into an advanced preparation focus rather than an on the fly focus.

Quote
You can free up a bit of Refresh by attaching Human Form to your Modular Abilities. Would you ever use those powers without using Beast Change first, anyway?

The powers are distinctly less impressive when using Paul's skills, but they are constant regardless of which skill set is being used.  However, since technically Voss is the one carrying the powers, how does it work if Voss and Paul are separated?  Human Form would have been a good way to represent that.  That allows Paul to willingly leave Voss behind too without giving up the IOP.  That would have strengthened the compel-ability of a few of his aspects too.  Good call.

Quote
You can also do without Second Set Of Eyes. +1 Alertness, only in one form, only under the right conditions? Seems weak. And not important to your concept.

Yeah, this stunt could have been better spent, but I wanted to reflect the heightened senses of a wolf or hawk in the character.  The stunt could probably be a +2, but even then, still not the best.

Quote
It's usually best to attach Item of Power to as few Powers as possible, so losing it is less problematic. Alternately, you could make Voss into the IoP for flavour reasons. You won't be using those Powers without Voss around, will you?

I flip flopped between what to make the IOP.  I decided on the staff, though I'm not entirely sure why anymore.  I think it was a thematic reason.  Something about the powers being representative of his high level transformation magic and only working with the focus item staff.  Lose the staff, lose the ability to transform Voss.  Losing Voss isn't really an issue because the Beast Change is effectively a consciousness merge.  Distance isn't a problem.  I think that's what it was anyway.

Quote
I'm not sure if Superb Endurance is pulling its weight in Voss's list. An extra mild consequence isn't that great. With Speed you'll be using Athletics for defence a lot, so maybe raise that? Or go for Superb Stealth and be really sneaky? Or keep your human-form Discipline, so mental attacks are less scary?

Fire is a fine catch, and fitting, but you could get the same rebate from something harder to exploit. Then again, the Catch is already powerful enough without gaming it.

I like these thoughts as well.  Thanks for the feedback.  Since I doubt that game with be going anywhere, I'll make some adjustments and put this character in my back pocket for another game perhaps.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on July 31, 2015, 08:03:01 PM
Yeah, that makes good sense.  I think I've seen you say elsewhere, possibly even in this thread, that optimization and building toward a theme are not mutually exclusive.  I'm seeing a pattern emerge in these optimizations though that seem to go against that thought.  At least to some degree.

You mention that guns should be dropped because claws are so powerful, but thematically, Esmerelda is just as good with guns as with her claws.  The same with Morgan.  Magic is more powerful than Weapons on his sheet, so drop Weapons, but thematically, Morgans relies heavily on his sword skills.

How would you address these thematic strengths while sticking to your optimization criteria?

I'd just ditch the optimization criteria. They're NPCs, who cares if they're optimal?

I'm talking about how to buff them here, but only to illustrate what I mean when I talk about optimization.

As for concept vs power, there doesn't have to be a conflict. And in a perfectly balanced game, there would never be one. Perfection doesn't exist, but DFRPG is pretty balanced so the trade-off isn't too common. And when it does occur, it's usually not too large. Morgan can have a decent Weapons skill and still be fairly optimal.

Most of the optimization I suggest here leaves the concept unchanged. That's why I'm not suggesting Aspect swaps. And in real games, optimizing tends not to change concepts significantly either. For example, did any of my suggestions involve changing who Paul Williamson is?

That's interesting.  I felt the overlap there as well, but rather than drop it entirely I decided to focus the magic on defense (see the rotes and focus) and let the transformations take the offense.  Grabbing ritual instead though, opens up more out of combat utility.  That is a marked upgrade except where group defense is concerned.  Or maybe it just shifts defense into an advanced preparation focus rather than an on the fly focus.

Thing is, evocation defence isn't as impressive as evocation attack. And in order to use it, he has to be in his comparatively fragile human form. So I doubt you'd get much mileage out of that.

Yeah, this stunt could have been better spent, but I wanted to reflect the heightened senses of a wolf or hawk in the character.

Maybe invoke an Aspect? Or use Modular Abilities to pick up Echoes of the Beast/Supernatural Sense?
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: JayTee on August 02, 2015, 01:56:11 AM
-Fists and gun use are a bit redundant with Channelling.
That was a deliberate choice on my part. The Telepathy aspect of Spirit Channeling was intended for crowd control and battlefield manipulation, and attacking someone mentally is pretty hard to do without smacking up against the Laws. That said, I don't have a problem with compromising on my original plans and going for full on Telekinesis.
-Splitting your foci between offense and defence isn't usually a good idea.
Interesting, why not?
-Channelling + 1 Refinement isn't a very good way to do combat spell casting.
Evocation is, in this case, actually strictly better.
As mentioned, Channeling was meant to be representative of his psychic abilities, but if it's more optimal to go for Evocation, then I don't mind the switch.
-Stunts are attached to lower skills, and some of them don't give you all that much bang for your buck.
I'll defer to your superior wisdom here  ;)

So how about...
(snip for space)
I like it, I'll see about steadily working him towards something like that as the game progresses. Thanks for the pointers!
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 02, 2015, 04:39:10 AM
That was a deliberate choice on my part. The Telepathy aspect of Spirit Channeling was intended for crowd control and battlefield manipulation, and attacking someone mentally is pretty hard to do without smacking up against the Laws. That said, I don't have a problem with compromising on my original plans and going for full on Telekinesis.

I'm not saying you should compromise your plans. Using Spirit for telepathic effects is a perfectly fine plan. And while Fists isn't exactly optimal, you should still do it if you want to do it.

Interesting, why not?

You can't use both bonuses at the same time, and +1 offence and defence power on a focus costs as much as +2 power on a specialization.

Plus, I think it's usually better to focus on offence with Evocation. Shields are a bit situational, and offensive bonuses can apply to both blocks and maneuvers if you narrate them right.

As mentioned, Channeling was meant to be representative of his psychic abilities, but if it's more optimal to go for Evocation, then I don't mind the switch.

It is more optimal. Your setup gives power and control 5 if you have your rings. Swapping Channelling + Refinement for Evocation, taking a spirit power specialization, and halving the strength of your rings would give you the same power and control with spirit, two extra elements, and slightly less focus reliance. And if you keep the Refinement or buy one later, you can spend it on specializations. Which are better than foci.

I'll defer to your superior wisdom here  ;)

I'm not sure that's the best idea, but okay.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: JayTee on August 03, 2015, 01:58:26 PM
I'm not saying you should compromise your plans. Using Spirit for telepathic effects is a perfectly fine plan. And while Fists isn't exactly optimal, you should still do it if you want to do it.
Nah, it's fine. I always feel like I'm not living up to my potential if I have a sub optimal build, so it doesn't bother me much at all to adjust things based on that.

You can't use both bonuses at the same time, and +1 offence and defence power on a focus costs as much as +2 power on a specialization.

Plus, I think it's usually better to focus on offence with Evocation. Shields are a bit situational, and offensive bonuses can apply to both blocks and maneuvers if you narrate them right.

It is more optimal. Your setup gives power and control 5 if you have your rings. Swapping Channelling + Refinement for Evocation, taking a spirit power specialization, and halving the strength of your rings would give you the same power and control with spirit, two extra elements, and slightly less focus reliance. And if you keep the Refinement or buy one later, you can spend it on specializations. Which are better than foci.
Very interesting, thanks for the insight. I'll definitely keep it in mind, as I think I'll be slowly turn Isaac in to a dedicated caster. Probably not full Wizard, but definitely a caster.

I'm not sure that's the best idea, but okay.
Could you explain this?
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 03, 2015, 04:42:57 PM
I don't really know your game, so my judgement might be off when it comes to the value of a stunt. Maybe +2 to black ops Scholarship is really quite valuable for you.

I tend to come across as confident in my opinions and beliefs, even when it's not 100% warranted. I don't want people to be misled by that, or by whatever measure of "authority" I have around here.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: Theogony_IX on August 03, 2015, 04:44:55 PM
I'd just ditch the optimization criteria. They're NPCs, who cares if they're optimal?

I'm talking about how to buff them here, but only to illustrate what I mean when I talk about optimization.

As for concept vs power, there doesn't have to be a conflict. And in a perfectly balanced game, there would never be one. Perfection doesn't exist, but DFRPG is pretty balanced so the trade-off isn't too common. And when it does occur, it's usually not too large. Morgan can have a decent Weapons skill and still be fairly optimal.

Most of the optimization I suggest here leaves the concept unchanged. That's why I'm not suggesting Aspect swaps. And in real games, optimizing tends not to change concepts significantly either. For example, did any of my suggestions involve changing who Paul Williamson is?

Certainly not in any core way, but I've always felt that a lot of what makes a character who he or she is, is the things they do.

Quote
Thing is, evocation defence isn't as impressive as evocation attack. And in order to use it, he has to be in his comparatively fragile human form. So I doubt you'd get much mileage out of that.

Maybe invoke an Aspect? Or use Modular Abilities to pick up Echoes of the Beast/Supernatural Sense?

These are good suggestions too.
Title: Re: Notes on Optimization
Post by: JayTee on August 03, 2015, 11:10:19 PM
I don't really know your game, so my judgement might be off when it comes to the value of a stunt. Maybe +2 to black ops Scholarship is really quite valuable for you.
Haha, that specific stunt was from a game that was over a year ago, and I just straight ripped the character sheet for my current game. At the time, I think I intended it to be used for "behind the scenes" political knowledge, blackmail material and stuff like that. It probably would have been useful in the old game, and I might find a way to make it useful in the current game.

I tend to come across as confident in my opinions and beliefs, even when it's not 100% warranted. I don't want people to be misled by that, or by whatever measure of "authority" I have around here.
No, it's fine. You back your opinions up with math and research, rather than opinions presented as facts, so I'm willing to take you at your word far more than I would someone who just presents their opinions as facts.

I might disagree with you (and other optimizers for other games who's opinions I respect) on some issues, but I still use your (and their) research to make better informed decisions.