Personally, I always attributed Harry's realization of which relic Nico truely wanted to the shroud, not the knife. Nico had just killed his own daughter, and it's hinted that he knew what was in the vault before the heist. While I honestly doubt it would have worked after what he pulled... I can't help but wonder if Nico's plan was to get the items, get away with his daughter's corpse, bring her back, and be in possession of all the relics*. I don't have any substantial support for this theory other than Harry stuffing the shroud into his duster pocket**, but... *shrug*
It's just a gut feeling.
* I support the "use in a summoning" theory, for these. Though, who I believe they are meant to summon, I'm still undecided.
** Correct me if I'm wrong here. I seam to remember this being the case. But, I don't have hard or softcover versions of the books. I only listen to the audiobooks. As a result, checking for exact details is difficult.
“I’d tell you to give me the knife, Dresden,” Nicodemus said, still smiling. “But unlike your friend, I don’t do second chances. And you won’t have any need for it in a moment.” SG.
Speaking of Magic Knives, what ever happened to that one that Dresden used at Chicken Pizza?He probably let it drop on the floor after he killed Susan, I do not think he kept it.
We know that being used in powerful rituals and such can cause Athame to gain power of their own, and the Red Court's bloodline ritual was quite a thing.
Lea might have it, as a keepsake from her time slaying and killing.
Another thing that might be important is the fact that there were five items in the armory. That's enough to start looking into rituals and summonings the items might help in, not to mention whatever abilities the items may have on their own.also in changes there are five stars in an empty sky when Harry became winter knight, described as jewels on lady nights neck. I wonder if these have signifcants to these five items, and farther to Stars and stones. Query, besides the 3 swords can anyone think of five positive forces?
also in changes there are five stars in an empty sky when Harry became winter knight, described as jewels on lady nights neck. I wonder if these have signifcants to these five items, and farther to Stars and stones. Query, besides the 3 swords can anyone think of five positive forces?That's actually a really nice catch as far as stars and stones go. It makes sense that the Stone Table would play a role in the BAT.
The above factoid is also part of why I associate the knives as one.
Twas the blade he was after.
Now I'm imagining Lea as one of those bragging parents with a trophy-shelf of all her Kid's Awards:
"This is from the time my 'ickle Godson blew up a Walker with a Gas Station. And this is from the time he burned his Master alive in a duel. This one is from when he burned a mansion full of Vampires to the ground..." ;D
I tend to believe however that Lea's history with ritual knives means she probably would have steered clear of this one. Fool me once type deal :P
also in changes there are five stars in an empty sky when Harry became winter knight, described as jewels on lady nights neck. I wonder if these have signifcants to these five items, and farther to Stars and stones. Query, besides the 3 swords can anyone think of five positive forces?
The above factoid is also part of why I associate the knives as one.
That's actually a really nice catch as far as stars and stones go. It makes sense that the Stone Table would play a role in the BAT.
What do you mean by five positive forces?
The swords allow angels to interfere without the fallen being allowed to act as well. A blade of the fallen would allow them to act more freely than before.Like a coin of the fallen? The blades can act because the coins can act.
The swords allow angels to interfere without the fallen being allowed to act as well. A blade of the fallen would allow them to act more freely than before.
I vaguely remember there being a spear that they used to cut into Christ's side after He died, but unless the "knife" is actually a spearhead... What's the deal?Look into stories about Logninus Casca and the Spear of Destiny.
First, Casca was cursed -- he couldn't die until Christ's return. Supposedly, then, he's still out there somewhere, wandering and waiting. There's even a fictional series of books written about it some time back in the 1970's iirc.There was a TV show called Roar that had the main villain as Longinus, immortal and on a search for the Spear because he thought it might be able to finally kill him
Second, because the spearhead was coated in Christ's blood, the holder becomes 'unbeatable' in battle. Over time the wooden pole the blade was attached to might have rotten away but the metal (especially because it had holy blood on it) hasn't corroded. Without the shaft it might well look like just a knife.You man something like this? ;)
There was a TV show called Roar that had the main villain as Longinus, immortal and on a search for the Spear because he thought it might be able to finally kill him You man something like this? ;)Close enough for government work.(click to show/hide)
The knife can probably kill anything, immortal or not, and was used to kill Jesus. The grail is a purifier, the Crown of thorns and placard wards, and the shroud resurrects. Together they may have cured one third of the White God of Nemesis.
Look what had to be done for Leas cure a much less powerful being, and Mab killed Maeve rather than attempt a cure.
Why would Nic want the knife? It could kill a Fallen (not the host) and Nic knows he has Nemesis infected Denarians. Perhaps he is even contemplating its use against a fallen Archangel if needs be.
It has been hinted that these items may have older provenance to the era of the Greek boos or earlier which is why Hades has custody of them.
Blood might have still gotten on the object, cleanliness is not a priority in a crucification.
Maeve didn't want to be cured, its not like Mab just woke up that morning and said 'screw her, off with her head'. We have not even the slightest idea how the white Christ is going to play out in this series if at all, much less can make a definitive statement about his power levels as compared to say Lea, nor whether or not the Passion was necessary due to N-fection.Just a side note:
The Swords = Restraint: These have the stated purpose of restraining and supernatural advantages of the Knight's enemy, forcing them to play by the Mortal rules. The Nails were used to restrain the body of Christ, locking him to the Cross
We have knowledge that Maeve was over a century behind in doing her job. There's room to speculate (I think it's been done before) that Maeve might have been N-fected for some time before Harry's story opens, and Mab has been maneuvering things for a showdown with Nemesis for decades.
You know, for the longest time, I've been wondering what's the symbolism behind the Nails' power. I think this is the best explanation I've ever seen for it. Well done!Thanks :D
That said, if you wish to associate the Crown of Thorns with responsibility, how does that tie in with the Thorn Manacles? Aren't they also symbolic of restraint, since they bind the user's magic?
Also, while you've accounted for the Noose's ability to levy the Barrabas Curse, you forgot about its ability to render the wearer immortal. Any suggestions on how the immortality ties up to retribution/judgement?Not one that Im really committed to, but thats what I meant by the whole bit about "a more poetic expression the idea of the Inescapability the Death that one is Fated for (in that case the Noose itself)." The idea was that the wearer of the Noose is Destined to die By the Noose, and so is preserved for that (inescapable) eventuality. You could even take it a step further and say that the Noose itself is imposing a sort of low-level entropy curse on it's bearer, ensureing that someday somebody will come along and make sure the Noose does it's work. "Sometimes what goes around comes around, Sometimes [Harry is] what Comes Around."
Not one that Im really committed to, but thats what I meant by the whole bit about "a more poetic expression the idea of the Inescapability the Death that one is Fated for (in that case the Noose itself)." The idea was that the wearer of the Noose is Destined to die By the Noose, and so is preserved for that (inescapable) eventuality. You could even take it a step further and say that the Noose itself is imposing a sort of low-level entropy curse on it's bearer, ensureing that someday somebody will come along and make sure the Noose does it's work. "Sometimes what goes around comes around, Sometimes [Harry is] what Comes Around."
I like that the Noose is a Curse idea.It appeals to me more and more, if for no other reason than it could be an eventual explanation for why harry hasnt shouted Nic's weakness from the rooftops yet.
I have a theory. The premise isnt mine, but I forget who I first heard mention it. What if the Crucifixion were an elaborate ritual to kill a particularly powerful Immortal (ie the mortal avatar of the White God), or perhaps to dislodge his mantle so it could be transferred?your ideas for the 5 objects from the vault are kinda similar to mine that I posted in the other thread. I like your ideas. I think the only major difference we have is the Crown.
Based on the power level of the artifacts these days, it seems reasonable that Big Juju was going down during the Crucifixion. Based on the relative power of the shroud in DM vs the shroud in SG, it's likely much more than just the accumulated faith of today. Based on the historic view that the Old Testament christian God and the New Testiment seem to have different personalities/characterizations, it would fit that that the Crucifixtion were the event responsible.
So, assuming for the sake of argument that that's indeed what was happening, what role might each of the artifacts played? And for the record, I dont know when or how the items got Power, whether the items were empowered ahead of time or empowered by the events themselves. The revealed original names of the Swords implies that they managed to call existing Power to those particular objects (a sort of Object-mantle, for lack of a better term), so it's possible that these object had similar manifestations in other cultures.
We have a total of 8/10/40 artifacts associated with that field, and by ones we know the most about is, by far, the Swords. (For this theory Im assuming the knife is indeed the Spear). These are all part of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arma_Christi
- Three Swords
-Fidelacchius/Kusanagi
-Esperacchius/Durendal
-Amoracchius /Excaliber
- Grail
- Knife/Spear
- Crown
- Shroud
- Placard
- 30 Coins
- Noose
The Swords = Restraint: These have the stated purpose of restraining and supernatural advantages of the Knight's enemy, forcing them to play by the Mortal rules. The Nails were used to restrain the body of Christ, locking him to the Cross
Grail = Purification: The Grail is generally as an artifact of Purity and Healing, and was used ahead of time during the Last Supper. It would follow that the Cup was used as part of a Pre-crusafixion-ritual purification, similar to what Harry does before major rituals. However, since it received the Blood of Christ ahead of time, it might have played some kind of thaumaturgical role, and "some traditions do say Joseph of Arimathea used to catch his blood at the crucifixion"(Wikipedia).
Crown = Responsibility: In the abstract this is what declared him to be the King of Jews, which per the Sword's royalty requirement is a important metaphysical attribute. However, the placard does this similarly, and there were several Mock-royalty items involved (a reed for a scepter, purple Robe, etc). It would appeal to me if the Crown of Thorns was actually the original prototype of the Thorned Manacles, and so had similar powers.
Placard = Name: This (in the abstract) shows and represents the Name of Christ, which would be all kinds of important for most any such ritual. It also anchors him as the King of Israel/The Jews, which per the Sword's royalty requirement is a important metaphysical attribute. It's powers will be Name related somehow; either reveal a TrueName, or perhaps forcibly Change it.
Shroud = Preservation: It's supposed to have healing powers, so Im guessing that this is responsible for sustaining Jesus's Body while he was off on a Soul-walkabout (to Purgatory by some traditions), essentially like what DR and Mab did for Harry.
Knife/Spear = Death (Change): This is what did the deed, so to speak. The logical assumption on primary power is to Kill Anyone, Kill Immortals, Forcibly sever/remove a Mantle from it's current Host, or similar. This could then be why it gained the reputation of ensuring Victory.
30 Coins = Choice: The Coins represent the Mortal's Freedom to Choose Evil. The Coins gain the Power to Increase the Freedom of the disgraced Fallen by allowing them to tap that same mortal Right to Choose Evil. Since the Swords arguably Impede Freedom, and the promotion of Freedom is the stated definition of Good in the DV, such Restraint would be fundamentally counter to the MO of the Heavenly Host, which is why the Coins gain a balancing Power.
The Noose = Retribution: This is the representation of Judgement, and the inescapable consequences of mortal Choice. It grants access to a Curse, symbolic of the Jew's Choice to free Barnabas rather than Jesus, and Im thinking a more poetic expression the idea of the Inescapability the Death that one is Fated for (in that case the Noose itself).
There was this movie caled treasure guards, it was about relic hunters belonging to the church that would locate and secur items that have been touched by god i think. I wonder what relics the church has been able to keep ahold of.So far the answer seems to be None :P
your ideas for the 5 objects from the vault are kinda similar to mine that I posted in the other thread. I like your ideas. I think the only major difference we have is the Crown.Agreed. Though part of the problem (with mine) is that I cant quite decide how much of the Passion events would have been pre-planned by Jesus vs some other agency. What I mean is that I am going on the general assumption that the items were specifically Crafted ahead of time rather than being Empowered in the act (per traditional Dogma), but whether they were doing so with benevolent intentions toward Jesus or not could change things some. For example, your idea for the crown would be a more benevolent thing as it would empower him to complete his "mission," wereas the Throned Manacle idea would be more about the jailers restraining their victim (regardless of how cooperative the subject actually is).
just guessing here. using my vast MMO gaming experience and DnD lore/ knowledge base. 8) ;) ::) :P
Thorn Crown :Christ was given the Crown before his march w/ the Cross. could it have some type of enh stamina/ endurance thing, pain suppression, damage mitigation? sort of like the Winter Mantle but not coming from the individual but the faith magic. something cleansing like also might fit. also was supposed to be a joke calling him the king of the Jews. might it also project and aura that aids/ supports allies?
Shroud of Turin : healing and resurrection I am thinking. they way I see it maybe the one previously seen is not the true Shroud but one of 2 other possibilities. one is a wrap used to cover a persons head before they are enshrouded. the other is the cloth used by the woman who wiped Jesus' face on his march w/ the Cross. this would explain why the Shroud did not work on Persephone, it was not the true Shroud. it might have the faith juice but not the true power of resurrection imbued within the one Harry just got. makes me wonder if he will try it on her to test it and get Marcone to owe him again.
the Plaque. : wonder if it some type of item that would allow someone to learn the true name of someone, even it's pronunciation. used in sealing someone or their powers, bind them/ entrap them.
the Knife/ Spearhead of Longinus : standard myth is it allows the user to become unbeatable. I think it is like Quantus was saying. something like and anti-entropy curse thingy. if anyone is a Marvel fan out you will recognize these two, Longshot and Domino, they had probability altering fields which had things go the right way for them in random situations. also the thing about it being able to kill anything even god-like beings fits it also.
Chalice : most myths involving this talk about healing/ rejuvenation/ immortality. wonder if this would be able to cleanse Black Magic taint or used to help Harry get rid of the WK Mantle?
just some WAGs but think a few might be close.
That first part would mean she lied at the end of CD as it pertained to how Maeve got N-fected and when. Which as we all know, she cannot do. The only argument one can make is 'well she can be wrong.' Wrong for 150 years is unlikely. That Nemesis only used Maeve NOW when things like the Well were unprotected for 148 of those years is also immensely unlikely unless Nemesis is the worst planner ever.If she were already N-fected, yes she could.
If she were already N-fected, yes she could.
Given that the major powers in the books think very long term, it would be no surprise if Nemesis had infected Maeve a century or more ago and left her there as a sleeper with instructions to make as little disturbance as possible until they could get a better foothold. This would have allowed her to assess all sorts of capabilities and weaknesses within Winter, some of Summer, etc. We've no really good idea how long she may have been working on Aurora to finally "turn" her at an appropriate time, or how long she may have been working on Cat Sith, etc., etc. Not acting strictly according to her nature, by being delinquent in her duties, seems -- to me -- a strong clue that something was wrong with her long before the books began.
If (and yes 'if' can't be proven), as I surmised in another thread, Mab had somehow been involved in the long term planning and execution of the "complex series of events" JB says is required for the creation of a Starborn, perhaps Maeve's dereliction was a hint to her that something was wrong and she began the Project with an eye towards the outcome(s) she's getting. She 'cured' Lea, yes, but perhaps as a member of the Royalty Maeve was too strong for that method to work... execution and replacement being the only 'fix'... which would be why she told Harry (the weapon she'd been building for so long) to kill Maeve, the (or just one) target the weapon was built to deal with.
Presuming Maeve couldn't lie with evidence present that suggest otherwise doesn't wash with me. Sorry.
/shrug
Agreed. Though part of the problem (with mine) is that I cant quite decide how much of the Passion events would have been pre-planned by Jesus vs some other agency. What I mean is that I am going on the general assumption that the items were specifically Crafted ahead of time rather than being Empowered in the act (per traditional Dogma), but whether they were doing so with benevolent intentions toward Jesus or not could change things some. For example, your idea for the crown would be a more benevolent thing as it would empower him to complete his "mission," wereas the Throned Manacle idea would be more about the jailers restraining their victim (regardless of how cooperative the subject actually is).its I just let my DnD DMing mind go have fun w/ these. thinking of Holy items I would give a Pally or Priest. I usually do not go curse direction but buff and heal type w/ them. it might be tainted that way. :-\
PS for everyone else, here is Phariah's list:
its I just let my DnD DMing mind go have fun w/ these. thinking of Holy items I would give a Pally or Priest. I usually do not go curse direction but buff and heal type w/ them. it might be tainted that way. :-\Fair enough. Though if harry could even FIND persephone without Marcone's knowledge and help, I will be highly disappointed in the Good Baron. :P
but I am still hoping for my Shroud guess to be true. have him revive Persiphone w/ out Marcone's knowledge. have Demeter being all types happy w/ Marcone for saving her. than have him find out and be like, "dammit Dresden!! I was supposed to be the hero not you!" than still owe him one because of it also. 8) ;)
Fair enough. Though if harry could even FIND persephone without Marcone's knowledge and help, I will be highly disappointed in the Good Baron. :PTrue. I've no doubt Marcone gave the order to have her moved within minutes of talking with Harry outside that hospital. Now, true, Harry could always try following him again, but... something tells me that wouldn't be near as easy or safe as last time.
your ideas for the 5 objects from the vault are kinda similar to mine that I posted in the other thread. I like your ideas. I think the only major difference we have is the Crown.
So far the answer seems to be None :P
Well there are lots of relics from Saints in cathedrals and whatnot, but we've no idea on their authenticity, true location or power levels.hehe, true. Though based on the shroud autheticity matters but isnt he end all be all.
I know that there's a knife in the DaVinci's Last Supper, I'm not sure if it's in the bible offhand though, so the knife might be that. After all, the Grail is not from the actual crucifixion either.Yes, and that dagger -- interestingly -- is being held by Peter (not Judas as some might have surmised), the man who will eventually found the beginnings of the Catholic Church.. .St. Peter, the first Pope.
After all, the Grail is not from the actual crucifixion either.In some traditions it was: it was said that Joseph of Aramitea caught Christ's blood in the cup from the last supper, either on the cross or during his burial. Seems to be accepted to be a later addition after the 12th century. Building on the theme of the Wine=Blood in a more literal way, I imagine.
In some traditions it was: it was said that Joseph of Aramitea caught Christ's blood in the cup from the last supper, either on the cross or during his burial. Seems to be accepted to be a later addition after the 12th century. Building on the theme of the Wine=Blood in a more literal way, I imagine.
Ten minutes later, I was humming under my breath and watching the gathering in Murphy's living room. Sir Stuart stood beside me, his expression interested, curious.
"Beg pardon, wizard," he said, "but what is that tune you're trying to sing?"
I belted out the opening trumpet fanfare of the main theme and then said, in a deep and cheesy announcer's voice, "In the great Hall of the Justice League, there are assembled the world's four greatest heroes, created from the cosmic legends of the universe!"
Sir Stuart frowned at me. "Created from . . ."
"The cosmic legends of the universe," I repeated, in the same voice.
Sir Stuart narrowed his eyes and turned slightly away from me, his shoulders tight. "That makes no sense. None. At all."
"It did on Saturday mornings in the seventies, apparently," I said. I nodded at the room beyond the window. "And we've got something similar going on here. Though for a Hall of the Justice League, it looks pretty small. Real estate wasn't as expensive back then, I guess."
I don't know, he does specifically say Justice League iirc though.They called themselves the Justice League in the Superfriends. And Robin is a much a "cosmic superhero" as Batman and Aquaman.
(Robin a cosmic super hero? lmao)
Another thing that might be important is the fact that there were five items in the armory. That's enough to start looking into rituals and summonings the items might help in, not to mention whatever abilities the items may have on their own.Holy crap, what if they could be used to summon Christ? Like, full on On The White Horse, Sword From Mouth Christ? That would be hardcore.
Holy crap, what if they could be used to summon Christ? Like, full on On The White Horse, Sword From Mouth Christ? That would be hardcore.
An apocalypse (Ancient Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apocálypsis, from ἀπό and καλύπτω meaning "uncovering"), translated literally from Greek, is a disclosure of knowledge, i.e., a lifting of the veil or revelation. In religious contexts it is usually a disclosure of something hidden. In the Book of Revelation (Greek: Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰωάννου, Apocalypsis Ioannou), the last book of the New Testament, the revelation which John receives is that of the ultimate victory of good over evil and the end of the present age, and that is the primary meaning of the term, one that dates to 1175.[1] Today, it is commonly used in reference to any prophetic revelation or so-called End Time scenario, or to the end of the world in general.Wikipedia
Holy crap, what if they could be used to summon Christ? Like, full on On The White Horse, Sword From Mouth Christ? That would be hardcore.
Okay. This got me thinking of of . . . Captain PLanet. Five people holding the items and calling them out.You can have the seat in front of me
"Spear!"
"Placard!"
"Crown!"
"Shroud!"
"Grail!"
"Go! Jesus Christ!"
"By your powers combined, I am Jesus Christ!"
. . . Yeah, I really may be going to hell for that one.
Ive been percolating another thought about these, and in particualr their possible Ritual roles and/or implications.
This one comes from the unsettled debate int he stories regarding the Body/Spirit/Soul and what is The Self. These are mirroring some of the classic arguments surrounding the philosophic questions of Life and The Self. In my metaphysics classes all individual definitions seemed to fall short, but something was always fascinated by was the Egyptian Idea of self, which sidestepped the issue by defining no less that 5 parts of the self, in addition to the Body, each with a different purpose. I see some similarities with these artifacts, and the DV idea of the Self.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_concept_of_the_soul
So the parts are: the Ren (Name), the Ba (Personality), the Ka (Vital Spark), the Sheut (Shadow), and the Ib (Heart's Blood). My thouht is that each Artifact was intended to Bind a specific part of that complex Self.
The Placard Binds the Name/Ren. You know, with Magic.
The Ka is the Vital Spark, "What makes them Alive", and Death is defined as it leaving the body. This fits Magic/Life most in the DV, I think, so Ill say that the Crown of Thorns restrains it like Thorned Manacles for mortal magic. It is sometimes identified with a "Spirit" from other religions, but there were cultural complications there (egyltians didnt really concieve of a non-corporeal afterlife).
The Bah is the personality, and by the description I think fits best the DV idea of the Spirit/Ghost.
The Sheut (Shadow), doesnt have much in the way of specific purpose that I can find, it was more that it was observed, ever-present and obviously connected to the very significant Sun, so it was given high status. Best I can find is that it is "The mark one leaves on the World". Not sure here, but the physcial imprint on the Shroud has a sort of Shadow feel to it...
The Ib is the Heart, or Heart's Blood. It is the seat of emotion, will and intention. It is "a metaphysical heart was believed to be formed from one drop of blood from the child's mother's heart, taken at conception." It is what is Judged in the afterlife, what bears the marks of your good and evil deeds. This sounds like what is popularly called a Soul in the DV. Im gunna say for now that the Spear binds the Soul, by literally piercing the physical Heart and stealing that Drop.
Further, the Ka and Bah were supposed to leave the Body and reunite "On the Other Side" and become an Akh, whose definition varied widely over the dynasties, but mirrors the Spirit+Soul metamorphosis that Bob alluded to (but said he didnt really understand) in GS.
So in this, each artifact was intended to Bind a particular aspect of the Self:
Placard = Name
Crown = Life Magic
Cup = Personality/Spirit (?)
Shroud = Shadow (?)
Spear = Soul (?)
Nails = ha/Body
I like this, but if its sticking to the artifacts I would probably have left out the Nails in the end. Even so this would be my take on that model:Oooh, I like those too.
Shroud (shadow/Sheut) - possibly the easiest to place as it is representative of a shadow or silhouette which the cloth covers easily as thats sort of a main sticking point to the Shroud. As a burial cloth it fits well with the aspect of death that Sheut also is indicative of.
Placard (name/Ren) - another good parallel. The importance of the concept of a 'name' is well established by Egyptians and the placard represents it twofold. First as it has aspects of the actual name of Christ AND it allows us insight into what he became a symbol of...recall the Placard is meant to illustrate the 'crime' of Jesus which was used to convict him. In this way 'King of the Jews' is given further importance and perhaps enhances or influences the overall nature of his name. As we all know, 'names have power'.
Spear (personality/Ba: -also could loosely include Nails-) - this is where it gets a bit tricky. The Egyptians had little concept, based on the reading, of a purely immaterial existence. Every person had a unique portion of themselves that passed on. The Spear I think ties in best with this. It is a unique attribute to Christ's crucifixion, (though not unheard of in others during the course of history), that he was pierced in the side by the Spear. In so doing we have opened the door to the Ba aspect, something wholly unique to he who was not alone in being crucified on that hill. It also represents our 'body' or physical aspect to bind with the next object. So too does it mimic spirits, bound to the earth upon death as shades and memory.
Grail (vital spark/Ka) - regarding the spirit or essence. The Grail is used to represent the granting of the 'Blood of Christ' thru which salvation might be attained. a spiritual symbol and an important aspect to summoning/binding in the DV is the use of blood. Ka is what gave you life and so too thru the blood are you meant to attain life everlasting. You are meant to sustain your Ka thru food and drink. Parallels souls which per our favorite archangel, everyone is.
Ba and Ka are meant to combine. The greatest symbol of 'God's mercy' on earth, thru the Grail, a very spiritual and metaphysical notion goes well I think with the physical embodiment of the Spear...the actual death blow and unique trait in his death. This all creates the Ahk as a parallel to the spirit/soul aspect of passing on 'properly' to your afterlife in the DV.
Crown (heart/Ib) - arguably the hardest to explain but i'll try. The metaphysical heart to the Egyptians was taken from one drop of blood from the Mother's heart at conception. It is also an aspect of will/thought/emotion...the weighing of the heart in the afterlife determined where you would go. In the DV we know you cannot perform magic you do not believe in. The Crown is meant to represent derision in its way of the assertion that Jesus is the Son of God or 'King of the Jews'. What he intended to be and represent. Some have pointed out the parallel to the thorned manacles. In this way we see the 'binding' of the nature of magic and the restriction placed on it. Magic follows Laws and rules (not in the Council sense so much as the inherent nature sense). Magic has its own inherent set of 'limiters' and suppression like the manacles, based in part on the will of the user. It lines up nicely I think with the idea of your 'true heart' and your actions being influential in how you use your magic and how you will be judged later (the stains Black Magic leaves on you comes to mind).
My two cents anyway, nice addition to the discussion on your part.
Oooh, I like those too.
Make sure I have this right: You are thinking Ba=Spirit/Ghost, Ib=Magic/Life, and Ka=Soul
Good point on the Nails, I went back and set them separately. I think they still fit in, at least in the sense of the larger concept of Artifacts = Restraints.
"An Akh could do either harm or good to persons still living, depending on the circumstances, causing e.g., nightmares, feelings of guilt, sickness, etc.
I certainly don't disagree on their importance, even as it might pertain to the restraint aspect, it was just hard to reconcile without a 'sixth' aspect.My thought was that the 6th aspect was the "Ba," literally the Body. I think Id prefer it that way from an arbitrary symmetry standpoint, simply so that the 6th is qualitatively different than the other 5, since they currently have the appearance of being set aside.
ALTHOUGH. Perhaps the Nails could represent the Akh? They only bound the physical body of Christ after all, what he was and would become still occured. His true essence which rose again, like a combination of 'spirit and soul' unburdened or restrained by the physical. It was meant to be reawakened by the Ka and Ba combining...the Nails are easily the most active of the holy relics out there but could only tie his earthly aspect down.
Sounds alot like the Swords to me no? ;)
My thought was that the 6th aspect was the "Ba," literally the Body. I think Id prefer it that way from an arbitrary symmetry standpoint, simply so that the 6th is qualitatively different than the other 5, since they currently have the appearance of being set aside.
I dont think the Akh would fit, mostly for a timeline issue. The Nails were engaged during the crusafixion itself, whereas the Akh is supposed to come into existence after Death; in that regard the only one that fits the Ahk is the Shroud. Which would make sense as fulfilling the post-death mummification requirements.
It could be evoked by prayers or written letters left in the tomb's offering chapel also in order to help living family members, e.g., by intervening in disputes, by making an appeal to other dead persons or deities with any authority to influence things on earth for the better, but also to inflict punishments.
Unless we tailor that to the idea that the Nails as a facet to power holy swords DID only come about after death...a death which gave prominence and meaning to all the artifacts for sure, but certainly most prominently in the story thus far to the Nails. Combined with the first passage from the wiki I put above comes this right after:Ok, that actually pretty Cool. Lets chase that thought for a second: lets say for a moment that it was the events of the Passion itself that empowered these items, rather than being somehow prepared ahead of time for their roles. Then the events would have Empowered them, which in the nails/sword case would translate to inbueing them with the (and I stand by this particular use of the term) Item-mantles of the Swords which we know predated those events. Or would that have not happened until the Nails were later forged into Sowrds the first time?
I just think it fits better with the duality of the Swords and their general representation. And that's thanks to the Nails.
Ok, that actually pretty Cool. Lets chase that thought for a second: lets say for a moment that it was the events of the Passion itself that empowered these items, rather than being somehow prepared ahead of time for their roles. Then the events would have Empowered them, which in the nails/sword case would translate to inbueing them with the (and I stand by this particular use of the term) Item-mantles of the Swords which we know predated those events. Or would that have not happened until the Nails were later forged into Sowrds the first time?
Like the item-mantles are the 'anchor' to reality that allows a blade with its own power to obtain more or adapt to the Nails when re-forged. Idk where that idea would lead but it came to me as I typed it and I figured i'd add it for posterity sake.At minimum I'd say you just described JB's concept of "the Powers of the DV never change, it's just our perception of them that does." What you've said seems to fit very well with that idea. At least to me. May also demonstrate (in some way) the "more worshipers/believers = more power" angle JB's mentioned.
BAT
Big
APOLCALYPTIC
Trilogy
I draw attention to the second word (all caps)..
Wikipedia
All things being equal would it be that out of order for an enactment of an Apocalypse include a major religious figure/deity from the core religion of the milieu (in this case Christianity...)?
There have been many speculations that the BAT/DV story will end with a change of guard at the Outer Gates; Winter being replaced by someone else as Watchers On The Wall, so to speak. The Judeo/Christian Armageddon (or something DV-ish akin to it) might well be what it entails.
/shrug
Don't know but wouldn't be surprise by this point.
I thought it was the 'Bat' Trilogy, and Harry was going to spend three books stuck in Gotham City. Harry would have to struggle between his Geek Fanboyism of being in a Comic Universe, and his Geek Fanrage of knowing that it was DC and not Marvel
Essentially yes, the Nails gained prominence and meaning thanks to the event of the crucifixion. The Swords, which as we know have been reforged and taken on 'mantles' of their own thru time, could very well have been 'holy swords' in their own right. Joyuse comes to mind as a tie to Excalibur, and that Sword was wielded by none other than Charlemagne though that came after...we know of course about Kusangi predating the Death.Ok, I really like that, it fits everything I can think of, based on our stated assumpions.
However, they only become 'Swords of the Cross' because of these events. And thus whatever they were before, they became something else. In a very Kringle esque manner. Or better example, the fake Shroud. It has power because ppl think its the real deal, the genuine article. But its absolutely nothing compared to the one in the Vault. So too would any other versions of the Swords prior to receiving the Nails. Certainly they keep that prominence and history, people still view those famous blades a certain way. But now they are something new altogether.
Like the item-mantles are the 'anchor' to reality that allows a blade with its own power to obtain more or adapt to the Nails when re-forged. Idk where that idea would lead but it came to me as I typed it and I figured i'd add it for posterity sake.
So I think there is room for a little of both, but big piece certainly was the power given to the Nails that allow the Swords to be. And that comes as a result of the events occurring and the importance placed upon those events later by humanity as well.
Ok, I really like that, it fits everything I can think of, based on our stated assumpions.
So lets take a step back and examine the other possibility: What if the items were Prepared ahead of time (empowered for Ritual purposes)? Setting aside the question of Who and Why, What would the items have been made to do? Based on the classic story I tend to think that, whomever was behind it, Jesus was aware of it if not an active participant of The Plan, but Im not attached to that.
Each possibility has an unknown factor involved, and Im not sure which is more likely. If they were empowered byt he events themselves, the question is Why those 5/6 items alone got empowered (to that degree at least), while there are other equally famous relics associated with it: the Scourge he was whipped with, the whipping post, The Seamless Coat, the Veil of Veronica in particular (which aurguably fits the theme better than the Shroud). And let's not forget my personal favorite Holy Relic, the Holy Prepuce. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce) But it could all be there in the background/shadows the the DV specific history and we simply havent been made aware of it. But that is the exact same problem with the idea of them being prepared ahead of time: we have to ask Who and Why and How and all of that. It could easily be made to make sense in the DV, but we just dont know yet (or really have anything much to go on).
Well the easiest answer is one of two. Either the Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection were all a ritual in and of themselves to specifically empower these items, OR the same events of which all these items were involved in is the reason they garnered this power.Hmm, I see your point. I think I hesitate on it though mostly because the Fame and popularity of several of those items appears traceable to the recent rash of tests and scientific examination, which was understandably limited to the relics that they thought they had in museums (the spear and the shroud notably). The placard Id argue is not any more famous than any of the other excluded bits (though the TrueName idea explains its presence to my mind, regardless of any Egyptian connection). Plus I generally took the comparison of the fake shroud to the real one, power-wise, as an indication that Cumulative Faith can only empower items so far, and that these were significant for more factual reasons. An obvious alternative to that is that both get shares of the Cumulative Faith, but the real one simply gets more, I suppose
I tend to favor something more towards the latter because the event itself is arguably the single most relevant and important set of aspects surrounding Jesus' life. I mean this was supposed to be the whole reason he was born, to die for humanities sins. That kind of attachment has made these items revered worldwide for centuries. All the other items you mention, while some have direct involvement even, I would argue are nowhere near the same top tier level of 'importance' as has been placed on the five bit items plus the nails. And I think since we've already got the in book example of the fake Shroud lending us credence to faith empowering even a useless rag...that it still fits the in book rationale as to why these items specifically mean so much more than the holy foreskin or the Scourge for instance.
Because if I walked up to a random person on the street and asked them what the Seamless Robe was i'd get the glazed over look...but mention the Holy Grail and at a minimum you get a Monty Python quote, but you get my point. So I think its very easy to differentiate which ones really matter even if we're sticking to a strictly 'belief' empowerment theme granted by the importance of the event itself. For myself personally I think the five items chosen in this story are realistically far more well known than that second level you illustrated, even over the few that were directly involved in Passion but weren't in the Vault.
Concurrently when you bring in an idea as you had with the Egyptian example which fit so well to the items, Nails too accepting my rationale, the others (maybe Veil excluded) seem like a stretch at best to fit the themes. And since I liked that theme I think it lends credence to the importance of these items over the others based on 'fame' for lack of a better term as being valid.
As for the idea the items were prepped beforehand, if it turns out to be the case then that's cool too but unlike the Swords which are 'easy' to attribute other version from in history...I have yet to see a real comprehensive list of examples of prior representation for these items as we know them now.What Im thinking for that is that they would have been enchanted in more ordinary fashion before hand, to give them specific functions for a Binding and Sacrifice Ritual. If that's the case I think it more likely that the items werent nearly as powerful initially, but still magical and functional. So for example the Crown could have restrained Magic like the Manacles, but would not necessarily have the crazy-strength aura that all the items do now. Similarly I'd think it more likely that the Nails were enchanted with some sort of Binding capabilities but that it wasnt until they were reforged as swords that they gained their item mantles (Kusanagi, etc), rather than those Sword-spirits(?) being somehow whistled up and crammed into Nails (which are not swords). If it were the latter Id want the Nails to have been unusually Sword-like (hilt-less daggers perhaps).
Hmm, I see your point. I think I hesitate on it though mostly because the Fame and popularity of several of those items appears traceable to the recent rash of tests and scientific examination, which was understandably limited to the relics that they thought they had in museums (the spear and the shroud notably). The placard Id argue is not any more famous than any of the other excluded bits (though the TrueName idea explains its presence to my mind, regardless of any Egyptian connection). Plus I generally took the comparison of the fake shroud to the real one, power-wise, as an indication that Cumulative Faith can only empower items so far, and that these were significant for more factual reasons. An obvious alternative to that is that both get shares of the Cumulative Faith, but the real one simply gets more, I suppose
What Im thinking for that is that they would have been enchanted in more ordinary fashion before hand, to give them specific functions for a Binding and Sacrifice Ritual. If that's the case I think it more likely that the items werent nearly as powerful initially, but still magical and functional. So for example the Crown could have restrained Magic like the Manacles, but would not necessarily have the crazy-strength aura that all the items do now. Similarly I'd think it more likely that the Nails were enchanted with some sort of Binding capabilities but that it wasnt until they were reforged as swords that they gained their item mantles (Kusanagi, etc), rather than those Sword-spirits(?) being somehow whistled up and crammed into Nails (which are not swords). If it were the latter Id want the Nails to have been unusually Sword-like (hilt-less daggers perhaps).
Getting pretty deep and esoteric here. I was wondering if we could simplify things a little by going more basic.Given what Bob said in CD about how even really complicated stuff like demonreach was still built on a "basic star-and-circle architecture", it wouldnt surprise me in the least if it were organized that way, though as you say it is most likely only one of several aspect of the symbolism at play.
In occult symbology a single item can stand for more than one thing depending on the need of the action/ritual to which is will be put. As I recall the "air/earth/fire/water" (four points the pentacle/pentagram) have various symbols attached to them by various religious/belief systems. JB seems focused more on the Judeo/Christian (and attached) systems such as Wicca as opposed to Theosophical schools such as Zoroastrianism.
Sword/Athame (blade of some kind) = Fire
Spear/Wand = Air
Shield/Pentacle = Earth
Cauldron/Grail = Water
The Grail and Spear seem obvious. If the Nails are taken as Athames (hiltless daggers) then the Name Placquard could represent the shield. The Crown of Thorns and Shroud then, if we're going for ritualistic significance/use equivalencies, would then represent Spirit and Will. I would personally go with the Crown being Will and the Shroud as Spirit.
Maybe I'm swimming out of my depth but to me simple is better.