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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 05:45:45 PM

Title: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 05:45:45 PM
Quote
She nodded and smiled wearily up at me. "Charlemagne.".

This quote help send me off on a tangent, blame Small Favor  8)

Its also a major WAG, helped and nurtured along partially by Quantus and Gryffin, whose own WAG's got my creative juices flowing to spin off theories of my own into this Super WAG.

The main starting point to take away would be the theory that out favorite barkeep, McAnally, is actually the human remainder of the Archangel Raphael. Said Archangel loaned his Grace to Merlin in order to create the island of Demonreach. The full WAG can be found here: Raphael (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,45677.0.html)

First we will be dealing with the possible overall 'origins' of the traditional three blades:



Origins WAG: Biblical Magi
(http://www.outpost-art.org/images/Boston%20Museum%20of%20Fine%20Arts/The%20Three%20Wise%20Men%201878.jpg)

Quote
Then I opened my eyes and picked up the bell. I rang it sharply once, and filled my voice with the power of my will. "I am not some clueless mortal you can frighten away," I said to the hilltop. "I am magi, one of the Wise, and I am worthy of your respect."

A wind came rushing up from the lake. The trees muttered and sighed with the force of it, a sound like angry surf, enormous and omnipresent.

I rang the bell again. "Hear me!" I called. "I am magi, one of the Wise, and I know your nature and your strength."
Harry Dresden Turn Coat

Depending on your degree of sunday schooling you may know these men as 'The Three Kings' as well (whom wizard nelson has brought up in his theories recently and in so doing sparked a re-interest of mine in them). We all know the story of the Three Wise Men who traveled far at the behest of Herod following the Star of Bethlehem and arriving to pay homage to the newborn Jesus. This WAG leans on a variety of personal interpretation and biblical historical debate which I combine and blend quite a bit, but I had a lot of fun developing it so here it goes.

The Magi were just that, wizards. Ones of the Wise. Ancient magical beings of renown and influence. At a time when such beings could have been kings in their own right, they still advised and were at the beckon call of a more powerful and influential king: Herod.

Quote from: wikipedia
In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, asking, "Where is the child who has been born king of the Jews? For we observed his star at its rising, and have come to pay him homage." When King Herod heard this, he was frightened and all Jerusalem with him; and calling together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They told him, "In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it has been written by the prophet: 'And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who is to shepherd my people Israel.'" Then Herod secretly called for the wise men and learned from them the exact time when the star had appeared. Then he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, "Go and search diligently for the child; and when you have found him, bring me word so that I may also go and pay him homage." 

...

And having been warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they left for their own country by another path.

Herod of course was worried about a long prophesied event that he felt would threaten his rule as told to him by the Magi. So he dispatches the Magi to locate The White Christ with a plan of his own to kill the child. The Magi would later be given a warning of this in a dream as to Herod's true plans and were warned not to return to Herod. But in the meantime a powerful confluence of events and beings have come into play with purposes of their own to be facilitated by the Magi's Quest.

Quote from: wikipedia
When they had heard the king, they set out; and there, ahead of them, went the star that they had seen at its rising, until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw that the star had stopped, they were overwhelmed with joy. On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage. Then, opening their treasure chests, they offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

These gifts have long been a subject in biblical lore as to their meaning. In the DV they take on a new interpretation. But first we must take a slight step back and focus on out Magi personally. Biblical text does not explicitly name them, but time and anecdotal legend names them as such:

Quote from: wikipedia
Caspar is old, normally with a white beard, and gives the gold; he is "King of Tarsus, land of merchants" on the Mediterranean coast of modern Turkey, and is first in line to kneel to Christ. Melchior is middle-aged, giving frankincense from his native Arabia, and Balthazar is a young man, very often and increasingly black-skinned, with myrrh from Saba (modern south Yemen). Their ages were often given as 60, 40 and 20 respectively, and their geographical origins were rather variable, with Balthazar increasingly coming from Ethiopia or other parts of Africa, and being represented accordingly.

As we know with wizards, age is not always what it appears to be. Caspar the elder Magi, Melchior in the middle and Balthazar the youngest. Each carries a gift with them to present to the newborn king. Gifts befitting any ruler of the day for certain. But these gifts have also been widely interpreted to have a secondary and perhaps more important significance:

Quote from: wiki
The three gifts had a spiritual meaning: gold as a symbol of kingship on earth, frankincense (an incense) as a symbol of deity, and myrrh (an embalming oil) as a symbol of death.

But were these gifts simple gestures of respect or did another hand influence their gifting? This event of the birth of Christ would have undoubtedly sent waves well beyond the mortal world and into the Nevernever. The importance and significance would not have gone unnoticed. And as such the opportunity has arisen for the Fae to create another tether to this world.

In an act of balance befitting these creature, each Magi is visited by the Queens of Summer and Winter alike. Newly minted aspects of Hecate and the Fates, the Queens each choose an emissary to deliver their gifts. To create balance the model works in this way:

-The Ladies, aspect of Clotho and youngest of the fates visit Caspar the elder Magi. To him they grant gold, the physical representation of wealth on the mortal world. They as the closest tied to the mortal world bestow the most concrete of the gifts to signify prosperity and vitality for the newly born Christ.

-The Queens, aspect of Lachesis and middle of the fates visit Melchior. Upon him they present Frankincense, the spiritual essence. They straddle the worlds between mortal and Nevernever and their gift reflects the duality of Jesus who is both God and man alike. Ever of two minds and responsibilities will he be.

-The Mothers, aspect of Atropos and the eldest Fate visits Balthazar. To him the bestow the gift of Myrrh. An anointing embalming oil used in rituals on the bodies of the dead, they are denoting the sacrifice that the White Christ will undergo. In so doing they are attaching themselves in their aspect of 'thread cutter' to arguably the most important death in the supernatural world as well as the eventual rebirth.

By doing this the Queens and their Courts also become tethered, loosely, to the life and death of Jesus. Gifts cannot be given or taken without recompense and theirs is to have a hand in the events yet to come as well as a light, but undeniable tether to the mortal realm thru the one who we would come to name as Savior.

What ultimately becomes of them is unknown but legends surrounding their importance bear noting as it pertains to DV events:

Quote from: wiki
What subsequently happened to these gifts is never mentioned in the scripture, but several traditions have developed. One story has the gold being stolen by the two thieves who were later crucified alongside Jesus. Another tale has it being entrusted to and then misappropriated by Judas. One tradition suggests that Joseph and Mary used the gold to finance their travels when they fled Bethlehem after the magi had warned them about King Herod's plan to kill Jesus. And another story proposes the theory that the myrrh given to them at Jesus' birth was used to anoint Jesus' body after his crucifixion.

As an alternate theory to what the gifts gained the Fae if not a tether to this world, the option exists that Favors could have been their goal as well. Helping to keep the child alive and anoint him upon death ensuring his physical and spiritual survival over the years would certainly be a worthwhile proposition for the Fae and gain for them in the long run as to being owed something in return.

Quote
O star of wonder, star of night,
Star with royal beauty bright,
Westward leading, still proceeding,
Guide us to thy perfect light.
We Three Kings

The Magi set out with their Fae gifts in tow. But the star they follow is no ordinary celestial body, but rather a very extraordinary one. An Archangel of the lord guiding them to the Messiah. We know his death by crucifixion would empower the Nails and help create the Swords of the Cross for many centuries to come defending the world from Darkness. But prior to receiving such Nails the blades would have been 'simple' holy swords if given any meaning at all. But what if the birth of Jesus also was the first step in creating the SoTC themselves. The three blades needed to be prepared as vessels of such power. It has been fairly well theorized that the Archangel's are custodians of the holy blades, but prior to them becoming such they would have still needed looking after for their task ahead. And gifted to the Magi on the road by the self same 'star' that was guiding them all the while. One single archangel and original custodian of the blades. The Lightbringer: Lucifer.

Quote from: Luke 10:18
Jesus replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

In his last act before Falling in the DV, Lucifer the Morning Star bequeaths the Swords to the Magi on their journey and sets them about another task. They will follow his 'light' and form to where the King of the Jews was born. The Magi will enable these blades to become 'vectors of power' much like Morgana's athame. This begins the 'line of kings' mentality that each true bearer and future Knight of the Cross will ultimately descend from a royal legacy. It also begins a tradition of wizards acting as temporary custodians to the holy blades until such time as they can find a worthy recipient. Lucifer grants them each with a critical power necessary to perform this task, Soulfire. The first such mortals to be granted this gift.

Quote
2010 Bitten by Books Q&A:
#387 “You mentioned that all of the Knights of the Cross were of royal heritage. Why is this? Does being royal make you more qualified to be one of the Knights?”
It doesn’t make you qualified, so much as it makes you /responsible/. It’s a small but important distinction.
I’ve seen a well-done argument that defined goodness, in the Dresden stories, as power balanced by responsibility–and evil as power without accompanying responsibility to restrain and control it. I liked it.

This act is the final straw for Lucifer who sees humans as inferior, weak beings. Beings with the potential power to bring Outsiders into this world and beings he is now meant to bow down to and show deference. After this task he begins the War in Heaven and takes a 'third of the stars in the sky' down with him.

Quote
"Thaumaturgy," I said. "As above, so below. Make something happen on a small scale, and give it the energy to happen on a large scale."
Storm Front

The Magi arrive and present the newborn Jesus and his parents with the Fae gifts. They set up the thaumaterlogic rituals under the glowing star of Lucifer's grace and using both the blood of the newborn child as well as the power from their own Souls, the vessels of the eventual Swords of the Cross are made. Christianity has not yet started and in a fun bit of irony the Magi promote "The use of magic for nonreligious purposes; the art and science of “wonder working;” using magic to actually change things in the physical world." for what will ultimately lead to one of the largest religious movements ever. Caspar the oldest, forges what would come to be known as Esperacchius the Sword of Hope. As the eldest he wishes to bestow upon the world that which all his long centuries could not take from him, the Hope for a better world. Melchior undertakes Fidelacchius the Sword of Faith. As the middle and most pragmatic of them he believes in the mission at hand. And the youngest, Balthazar gives us Amorrachius. His youthful Love for magic much like Harry's helps fuel his soul into arguably the most important of the blades.

Quote
2011 Bitten by Books Q&A
How can Kusanagi be a Sword of the Cross when it predates the crucifixion?
Because the Swords are ideas and symbols as much as they are physical objects–maybe even more so. Kusanagi isn’t the original Kusanagi, Exaclibur isn’t the original Excalibur, etc. But their title, their /idea/ has been passed down from one generation to the next, much as the names of warships are passed down to the next generation of ships, with the new ship inheriting the titles, victories, and traditions of its forbears. The nails are passed on from one sword to the next, bringing bits of the metal of each sword that came before.

(As a loose interpretation of how the ritual would go down using the general 'five elements' magic Harry works with i'd see it as such: The Gold represents the Earth, Frankincense is Fire, Myrrh is Water, Soulfire as the unseen 'essence' for Air and either the Grace of the Archangel or Jesus' blood as the 'spirit'. This of course does not preclude a more simple working on their part or that such a model had to occur at all, just that for posterity I decided to use what was 'on-hand' and how it might be ok).

The Three Wise Men would then set out with their blades, keeping them safe until such time as the one they visited as an infant lay dead on the Cross. They take the Nails and re-work the Blades into the now known Swords of the Cross, 'closing the circle' on their mission so to speak before setting out to find their first worthy Knights.

(The above is a bit of a 'prequel edit' as its an idea I came up with a good deal after this whole WAG was shared, but added as I felt it fit in nicely with the whole 'ancient story' here.)



The Swords of the Cross
(http://difficultrun.nathanielgivens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/2014-09-29-Michael-Carpenter.png)

Three legendary blades affixed with the Nails from the crucifixion of Jesus the Nazarene. Amoracchius, the Sword of Love, Esperacchius, the Sword of Hope and Fidelacchius, the Sword of Faith. It has been theorized that each of these blades has an angelic guardian, or custodian. Michael gifted Esperacchius to Sanya, the Prince of Host representing the blade of Hope seems to fit nicely. Gabriel is believed to have been the Archangel who used Murphy, temporarily, as a vessel at CI. The Trumpeter, decrying the LoON's as 'false gods' and pretenders befits his station, and the sword such beliefs would tie into; faith. Finally we have Uriel, friend to Michael. The Watchman is the least heralded of all the Archangels, but does he fit well with the sword of Love?

Quote from: 1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.


The underlined portion could be taken to view Love as ever present, unyielding, supportive of all the other traits and yet the least appreciated. Much like a Watchman standing guard.

But that leaves us one Nail short. What of Raphael, the Demon Binder, who takes tasks upon his own shoulders? Surely as an archangel he would warrant such representation on earth as well. How then do we reconcile for lacking a final nail and the conspicuous missing sword?



Durendal
(http://photos.swordsfromspain.com/martoswords/marto/catalog/photos/photossmall/5221_3.jpg)

Once again our old friend Charlemagne comes back into play:

Quote from: wikipedia
According to the Song of Roland, the sword is brought by an angel to Charlemagne, who gives it to Roland.

So why not keep the blade for himself? Well Charlemagne...who would go on to become the first Holy Roman Emperor, more than capable of wielding a Sword of the Cross...had his own legendary blade, Joyuse. A golden pommeled broadsword in the same general style as Excalibur. Back then divine intervention and 'coincidence' are all well and good, but one Knight finding his or herself 'happening' upon another Knight when the Swords could have been spread out over thousands of miles is almost impossible. Transportation, resources and events would all have worked against such 'team-ups' being commonplace. So making sure two blades were able to come together for important works would certainly be within the angels purview. But how would Durendal come to be the fourth blade?

Quote
In The Song of Roland, the sword is said to contain within its golden hilt one tooth of Saint Peter, blood of Saint Basil, hair of Saint Denis, and a piece of the raiment of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to be the sharpest sword in all existence. In the poem, Roland uses the sword to hold off a hundred-thousand-strong Muslim army long enough for Charlemagne's army to retreat into France

Well now, that is certainly a high concentration of 'holy power' to bring life a fourth sword no? Equal to a Nail. The Sword of Endurance. So now we have our missing power source.

Quote from: wikipedia
Roland attempted to destroy the sword to prevent it from being captured by the attacking Saracens and created La Brèche de Roland in the Pyrenees in the process. But Durandal proved indestructible, so he hid it beneath his body along with the oliphant, the horn used to alert Charlemagne

Swords like this can only be broken under certain conditions. Roland could not do it. Some legends say the blade is still embedded in a cliff wall in France somewhere, but what if it simply had another destiny awaiting it?



Curtana
Quote from: wikipedia
According to the legend, it bore the inscription "My name is Cortana, of the same steel and temper as Joyeuse and Durendal.
(https://stresseffect.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/sword-of-mercy1.jpg)

Fast forward 300 years give or take. Edward the Confessor is overseeing the last days of Anglo-saxon reign in England. He carries with him a famous blade in its own right, the Sword of Mercy. He lived until 1066 A.D. If that year sounds familiar to you it ought to, the Battle of Hastings occurred later that very year. And with it, the ascension of Mab.

But what makes these two blades one in the same? Let us re-examine for a moment Corinthians:

Quote
If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

These could very easily be taken as aspects of 'mercy' and endurance...both versions of the Sword within the same sentence of Corinthians. We have interpreted the final line about love being the greatest of all to have a hidden waypoint back to the three Swords of the Cross. Thanks to Thomas and Harry's discussion in Blood Rites:

Quote
“You can have everything in the world, but if you don't have love, none of it means crap," he said promptly. "Love is patient. Love is kind. Love always forgives, trusts, supports, and endures. Love never fails. When every star in the heavens grows cold, and when silence lies once more on the face of the deep, three things will endure: faith, hope, and love."

And the greatest of these is love," I finished. "That's from the Bible."

First Corinthians, chapter thirteen," Thomas confirmed. "I paraphrased. Father makes all of us memorize that passage. Like when parents put those green yucky-face stickers on the poisonous cleaning products under the kitchen sink.”

Thomas admits to paraphrasing, if we re-examine the Corinthian text from earlier, we see a slight different listing:

Quote from: Corinthians
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Between the two gives us representation of all blades, known and theorized.

Love Trusts. In other words, Faith. Fidelacchius.
Love Hopes. Esperacchius
Love Forgives and perseveres. Mercy and Endurance. Durendal and Curtana.

Quote
The Sword of Mercy has a broken blade, which is cut off short and square.  In 1236, the weapon was given the name curtana and has since been used for royal ceremonies.  In ancient times it was a privilege to bear this sword before the king.  It was considered a merciful gesture.  The story surrounding the breaking of the weapon is unknown, but mythological history indicates that the tip was broken off by an angel to prevent a wrongful killing.

Durendal has made its way to England. But what events could have caused the unmaking of such a blade? Who would have been of such importance that they needed defending from an angel? Much like Murphy wielding the Sword of Faith against a 'helpless' Nicodemus, we see that may only have been history repeating itself. The most important person to come out of Hastings was the target. The future Queen of Air and Darkness...Mab.



Hastings
(http://www.angelfire.com/mb2/battle_hastings_1066/clovellhastingscolorrough.jpg)

Quote
She gave me an oblique look. "I have not exchanged words with my sister since before Hastings."
Titania Cold Days


A major confluence of events surrounds this battle. A changing of the guard as it were. Clearly such a battle in the DV would have had supernatural influence on both sides considering the known outcomes. We know Mab ascends to power and the responsibility of the Gates falls to her. According to Odin the Jotuns 'retreated' from their duties. Many have come to ascribe this to being the original guardians of the Outer Gates. What if it was to lend their support to William the Conqueror's campaign?

Certainly the Unmaker would have noticed, full WAG here: Sarissa (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,44130.720.html)

Quote
The reason I bring this up is because the WAG I made based off of Quantus' leads me to wonder if Mother Winter intended all along to have her two daughters take power in both of the Courts. We don't know for sure when Mother Summer abdicated but we know Mab rose to power during Hastings, 1066. The last time she exchanged words with Titania, possible because she too ascended but to Summer. And so as the most experienced Fae left after Mother Summer's abdication, Mother Winter might very well have foreseen the need of her other daughter to fill a void in Summer...

A separate idea has been presented regarding the idea that Mab was the FIRST Queen of Winter. In a way that could very well lend credence to the idea that Mother Summer abdicated at this time. Mother Winter saw the Jotuns failing at the Gates. Winter was poised to take over and indeed Mab curried many favors, (such as Anduriel), during her initial take over of the defense at the Gates. Hastings was in some ways a signal that the old guard was in need of replacing by the new. IF Mother Winter created the Queen mantle and gave it to Mab...it is not so unlikely that as a new Mother Summer came to be, Mother Winter could have convinced her to appoint Titania as the Queen of Summer. Knowing as they both would the dangers and responsibilities necessary to maintain the defense of the Gates, the Mothers would know that should Mab ever falter she would need a check. So Mother Summer would in the aspect of balance create the Queen mantle for her Court, and Mother Winter would offer Titania for the role, Mab's own sister, to be her counterpart in all the ways they might have been in another life.

The Fae throw their hat into the ring on the side of the English to counter the Jotuns. But as we often see in the DV, not everything goes as smoothly as one would hope.



Merlin
(http://fdzeta.com/subir/images/TLYiq.jpg)

Lets take one more step back and outline the idea Merlin gained angelic Grace:

Raphael likely gave Merlin his Grace to create Dudael/Demonreach at the end of Merlin's "lifetime".  Once Merlin finished, he would have to be imprisoned in Dudael to preserve its existence; if he died, then his workings with the Grace might be undone, thus making it pointless.  So everything that formed Merlin's living legend would have to have occurred before that point.  We know Merlin was still active around 400 A.D., moving the remnants of the WCW from Rome.  Assuming he had already aged a bit before he got the Dudael job, it could have been commissioned anywhere in his extended wizard's lifetime, between 400 A.D. to 800 A.D.

HOWEVER, Merlin created the prison at five times.  The earliest of the five times was likely when Raphael was tasked by TWG to create Dudael to hold Azazel, the leader of the fallen Grigori.  That occurred sometime before the Great Flood, as part of its purpose was to flush away the half-breeds sired by the Grigori.  If that's the case, then Raphael's Grace was tied up in the prison for millenia before Merlin's lifetime.  Since before most of human history.

HOWEVER, part of the Archangel/SwordSponsor theory is that it's not consciously done.  Since none of the SotC stopped working when Uriel gave up his Grace to Michael, it seems to imply that either the swords aren't sponsored by the Archangels, none of them are powered by Uriel, or the sponsorship isn't inherent to the bearer of the mantle consciously enabling it.  In the latter case, a Raphael sword could exist beyond Merlin taking up the Grace.  But that leaves the question as to where it is now, and some other explanation of why it's not active.

My own WAG from some time ago gives a slightly different reasoning FOR Merlin's speculated imprisonment on DR, but neither one needs to be mutually exclusive of the other...full WAG here: Morgana (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,43809.0.html)

This comes up as part of the discussion within the Aurora topic regarding the spread of Nemesis and another contributor postulated the notion of Morgana being the 'patient zero' for Nemesis. Certainly she was well known for pushing the boundaries of 'natural' magic, Nemesis seems like the perfect sort of being with which to ally herself with OR be taken over by. She has been portrayed as Merlin's former lover, sister, apprentice...perhaps she was driven down a path that allowed for her infection?

...

The two theories tie in together in this way, supposing Merlin when setting up Demonreach was already well aware of the Outsiders attempted influence on the world, perhaps because the original battle was between Morganna and himself over the opening of the Outer Gates. Merlin is stronger than Morgana but she is cunning and infects Merlin with a strain of Nemesis in her final act before being blown to kingdom come. Merlin now has a choice, roll the dice and see if he can resist the strain on his own, (the info on Nemesis is already sketchy at best, during his time would likely even be more so if there was any to be had at all), OR use the handy prison that he had created to seal away all those Nightmares that would have been kicking in his day and as a final act, place himself in holding.  Maybe he constructed the prison BECAUSE he became infected, maybe those nightmare's were allied with or even summoned by Morgana?

Merlin created the prison in five different times. But his arch nemesis has to be dealt with. If Morgana either summoned, aligned herself with or otherwise wanted to free the beings in the Well Merlin would have to fight her. For the sake of this WAG we will postulate the beings were already around...perhaps Morgana did indeed summon them over the course of her life and Merlin has been 'putting out the fires' each time. But in spite of having locked all her allies away by the time he is finished, Merlin would have expended most, if not all of the Grace. Not to mention if sealing himself away was in part necessary due to being out first case of N-fection how could he have reasonably fought Morgana off? Well as luck, or foresight would have it Merlin picked up a handy tool...the Blackstaff.



The Ultimate WAG

Are you all excited? You better be  :D

Edward the Confessor is dead. His blade likely passing to the last 'ruler' Harold II Godwinson (how's THAT for a surname? :P ) With the help of Durendal and the Fae, Harold can see victory over the upstart William and his forces. But Mother Winter is no fool, this battle is not like the ones in the days of Charlemagne and the Sword will not avail Harold here. The Gates still need defending and the Jotuns have abandoned their post. Winter is poised to take responsibility and control. But to do so requires knowledge, access and 'permission'...a willing of the task away on the part of the Aesir.

Enter changeling Mab. The supernatural forces aiding the forces of England are his only hope at being outnumbered by some 3,000 troops and much more in the way of cavalry/archers. But while most of the Fae are there in earnest to aid Harold, Mab has a secret agenda. Mother Winter is this realities Destroyer by her own admission. She will be damned to see Outsiders come in and try to usurp her role or the future of this reality. She has commissioned her daughter to meet in secret with the Jotuns. Mab will gain the trust and love of Harold as his consort in order to become close to the events. In exchange for the 'keys to the kingdom' and control of the Outer Gates, Mab will provide William vital information on the movements of the army. Harold intends to 'surprise' William at Hastings but scouts find his army and are able to alert William. That 'scout' is none other than Mab.

Quote
Mab did not turn around. When she spoke her voice had something in it I had never heard before and never heard again-uncertainty. Vulnerability.

"I was mortal once, you know." she said, very quietly.
Cold Days

Mab is not speaking only of her daughter but of days gone by...before she was forced to betray the man she loved and ascend to the role she never truly wanted. Mother Winter promises her after she secures the Gates for Winter she and Harold may live in peace and love together away from Winter for the rest of their days. But the Unmaker knows well and good her daughter is vital to holding the Gates...and she knows as well that she doesn't have to break her promise to Mab, as the future Queen of Winter will seal her own fate.

Quote
“Mab,” said Mother Winter in a tone of pure disgust, “is too much the romantic.”
Cold Days

Mab confesses but proclaims her love for Harold, and the deal she made. Harold is shocked at the betrayal. The young woman he had grown to trust, perhaps to love has unmade him. He draws the blade that after this day would be known as Curtana and goes in for the kill. This is the sword of endurance, and Harold's will to persevere is as strong as ever. The loss of willpower might unmake the blade, but anger will not. Only the power of an archangel can break the blade...but its custodian has bequeathed his Grace to another. And Harold is still a human being, the angels cannot interfere in a free willed act. Mab is going to die an iron death.

Until the blade tip is caught and broken, snapped by the fingers powered by archangelic Grace...by Merlin.

Merlin created Demonreach in five different times. The confluence of important events has led him, knowingly or not to 1066, where he has finished one round of Demonreach's creation. Merlin once had Amoracchius under his stewardship. He can feel the presence of a holy blade. He is also battling N-fection, held at bay by the Grace Raphael has given him in order to perform this task. But his connection to Nemesis allows him to gleam the events surrounding the Outer Gates and Hastings through Jotuns who have been infected and abandoned their posts to aid mortal warfare. And so he makes his way over to Hastings, led by the palpable feelings Durendal and Outsider magic would emit to him, and sees Harold about to kill this young changeling with it.

A free-willed mortal, acting with the Grace of an Archangel to further his own will to save Mab from a wrongful death. The Grace endures, Mab is saved and Durendal is unmade, its power broken and undone by Raphael's Grace. Without it Harold II has no hope of winning at Hastings. He would go on to die at the end of the battle, shot in the EYE.

Quote
“Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom one does not get along famously well. It can be tedious, but generally is less trouble than a duel would be.”
Odin Skin Game

The hooded figure of Odin smiles his wolfish smile and walks away after loosing the arrow, a fitting example to Harold about the price one pays for true wisdom.

Endearing himself to Winter who he will soon have a valuable alliance with. With Sigrun at his side to help ferry those worthy fallen in this battle to Valhalla, the Aesir's time as active guardians is done. But he isn't the only one. Whether foreseen by Mother Winter or not, Merlin's interference has saved her daughter. A debt is owed. Merlin is not yet done with his task, but neither is he foolish. He knows he cannot defeat Morgana after building Demonreach and expending all that Grace, especially when it has been holding Nemesis at bay. But another weapon exists that could aid him in his task, Mother Winter's walking stick. As repayment for the debt Merlin is gifted the Blackstaff. So long as Merlin lives the Blackstaff is his to aid in the 'protection of humanity' much as he protected Mab.

Merlin returns to his work and finishes Demonreach. Morgana, sensing all the dark power ripe for the taking has decided to press the issue and attack. Battling and hammering at Merlin, trying to take advantage of what she perceives to be his weakened condition after infecting him with Nemesis. But what she does not know is Merlin now wields the Blackstaff, a tool that keeps its user safe not only from the effects of Black Magic, but it also suppresses Nemesis in much the same way. Merlin defeats Morgana and locks himself away in Demonreach in order to keep his Nemesis riddled self from ever unmaking the prison, as well as sealing the magic into permanence as needed for the Grace to endure.

But before he does so, he gifts the Blackstaff to his own White Council. Knowing at the end of the day the threat Nemesis presents and Mother Winter's limited ability to act on this Earth both go against them. So he creates the office of the Blackstaff, the Council needs such a flexible option to deal with the enemies of reality. He still lives within the confines of DR and so his deal with MW remains valid, humanity needs protecting so long as he lives. MW very much wants her walking stick back, Merlin could not have realized how vital it was to the even limited actions she COULD take on earth. But a deal is a deal.

Mab, heartbroken and jaded ascends to Winter Queen shortly thereafter. Her past and the task ahead of her has forged the Queen of Air and Darkness for all of time to come. And she never forgets, and she never forgives...but always she endures like the blade that almost ended her life.

Mac (transubstantiated Raphael) is now 'out of the game' retiring to a quiet life thru the ages as a beer-o-mancer. Perhaps Merlin is able to place him in a time right after Demonreach's final creation in order to remain ever vigilant on the outside, otherwise known as present day Chicago where his previous acts and deeds gain him Accorded Neutral Ground status.

The Sword of Mercy is broken, its time done. The Swords of the Cross will take up the battle for the rest of their time while Curtana becomes a symbol during English coronations, an example that a simple act of mercy can change the world.

*Roll credits to the tune of Carry on My Wayward Son*

{disclaimer. I wrote this for several hrs last night till almost three in the morning. At 85% completion my internet 'dropped' and since I was too stupid to save any of this, I lost it. My router and computer have since been enjoying their time in a firepit.  :-X}

Reference Links:

Famous Swords. (http://imgur.com/gallery/5jQLz) Some real interesting little backstories for other possible incarnations of the Holy Swords.
Durendal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durendal)
Curtana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtana)
Hastings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hastings)
Three Wise Men (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi#Gifts)
Star (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem#Fulfillment_of_prophecy)
Thaumatergy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaumaturgy)

Much obliged to all who enjoyed  ;)

(http://iwritearticle.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/merlin2.jpg)



EDIT: It has been brought up that we already had a legend to Durandel in the DV:

Quote
"Excalibur, Durendal, and Kusanagi, yes, yes," Sir Stuart said, his tone a little impatient. "Of course I know the Swords of the Cross. And the little blond woman has two of them?"

My contention is this sword, while not a sword of the cross, WAS on a similar level represented by Raphael. But the sword is 'lost' after the time of Roland. What if the church did in fact lose track of it, unbeknownst to them it would find its destiny in later centuries...but the story of Durandel is too important a representation to lose hold of. It has its own legend of being created with 'holy relics' within its hilt...why not simply re-purpose the legend for one of the Swords they still had knowledge of, one that did not yet have its own legend like Excalibur or Kusangi...Esperacchius :)

Case in point, Harry's reaction to the knowledge:

Quote
I just stared at the burly shade for a long second. I'd found what amounted to a rumor that Amoracchius was, in fact, the same sword given to King Arthur, but I hadn't ever heard anything about the other two— despite some fairly exhaustive research over the years. The shade had dropped their identities as if they were everyday knowledge.

Harry has a gift for research but in all that time never came across Kusangi or Durendal...now this doesn't preclude him from not having looked in the right places, but these are legends after all. Durandel had a pretty specific legend already, much like the information on Shagnasty being 'anecdotal' I see no reason to believe the legend and 'mantle' of Durandel could not have been re-distributed  ;) Especially coupled with the systematic 'purging' Nicodemus does on the Church and their records ever few centuries, its rather easy to lose track of important information.

It should be noted Ogiers the Dane wielded a sword named Cortana, another paladin of Charlemagne at the same time as Roland. But the history is very vague surrounding him and whether the same Curtana of later English years is in fact meant to be the same blade...the inscription it is purported to have on it might lend some credence to that.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: knnn on April 16, 2015, 06:14:55 PM
Wow!  That's a fine bit of story telling, and I could totally see it as Jim's background to the series.  Kudos!!

There's  a lot of conjecture of course, but it does fit together.  Nice done.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 06:16:23 PM
Wow!  That's a fine bit of story telling, and I could totally see it as Jim's background to the series.  Kudos!!

There's  a lot of conjecture of course, but it does fit together.  Nice done.

Oh its a total and unabashed mega WAG. But thank you I had fun doing it haha.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Foxed on April 16, 2015, 06:26:31 PM
I like the theory. It holds together pretty well, and I hate to do this, BUT.

There are only three nails. One in each wrist, and one through both ankles. No fourth nail, no fourth sword.

Without Clementacchius, though, the theory doesn't immediately fall apart. I could have sworn that we had some confirmation from Sir Stu that Durandel was Esperacchius.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 06:34:35 PM
I like the theory. It holds together pretty well, and I hate to do this, BUT.

There are only three nails. One in each wrist, and one through both ankles. No fourth nail, no fourth sword.

Without Clementacchius, though, the theory doesn't immediately fall apart. I could have sworn that we had some confirmation from Sir Stu that Durandel was Esperacchius.

Mhm, Durendal didn't have a nail in it however. It had various other 'holy bits' according to the legend:

(the sword is said to contain within its golden hilt one tooth of Saint Peter, blood of Saint Basil, hair of Saint Denis, and a piece of the raiment of the Blessed Virgin Mary)

That's what I outlined above as an option to how such a blade could be powered without the usage of a Nail.

Now that you mention it I DO recall Sir Stuart saying such, but I don't remember the quote in its entirety. Perhaps he is mistaken? OR depending on the circumstances surrounding previous incarnations of Esperacchius, Durandel was 'too important' or too prevalent a 'mantle' or incarnation to have lost and so it became ascribed by the church to one of the existing swords?
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: peregrine on April 16, 2015, 06:48:47 PM
If that's the case, then it's still only three swords, because Cortana and Joyeuse are the same, leaving one still missing. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Durandal was a holy sword, and that there's bunches more out there, but another Sword of the Cross?  Without a nail, but with a link to two other swords but not three?  I doubt it.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Snark Knight on April 16, 2015, 06:50:34 PM
I don't know about a fourth ... I don't think it's a coincidence that Faith, Hope and Love show up both in the the three swords and Lord Raith's corrupted / different Bible passage about what will persist after empty night covers the earth.

There might be other holy swords out there (indeed, as the false shroud showed, anything that enough people believe is holy will become a source of faith power), but I'm with Peregrine on doubting they're of a set with the Three.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 06:54:37 PM
If that's the case, then it's still only three swords, because Cortana and Joyeuse are the same, leaving one still missing. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Durandal was a holy sword, and that there's bunches more out there, but another Sword of the Cross?  Without a nail, but with a link to two other swords but not three?  I doubt it.

I do not assert this to be a 'Sword of the Cross' in any way, that obviously requires the Nails. Just another holy sword for the fourth Archangel who may not be active any longer.

Cortana and Joyuse are separate, Curtana is reputed to have an inscription on it...

Quote
According to the legend, it bore the inscription "My name is Cortana, of the same steel and temper as Joyeuse and Durendal.

Now we know the two blades above are separate, which means it is not a re-naming of a blade that was once these two...but a blade within the same family...for the sake of the WAG its brother, Joyuse (Amoracchius) and itself (Durendal).
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Foxed on April 16, 2015, 07:00:45 PM
That's what I outlined above as an option to how such a blade could be powered without the usage of a Nail.

*Looks at title of thread*

... oh. Fourth Holy Sword. Not fourth 'Sword of the Cross.' Carry on.

;)

If that's the case, then it's still only three swords, because Cortana and Joyeuse are the same, leaving one still missing.

A quick wiki search shows that Ogiers the Dane wielded Cortana while Charlemagne wielded Joyeuse and Roland Durandal. Three swords made of the same metal.

Quote
I wouldn't be surprised if Durandal was a holy sword, and that there's bunches more out there, but another Sword of the Cross?  Without a nail, but with a link to two other swords but not three?  I doubt it.

Quote
"Excalibur, Durendal, and Kusanagi, yes, yes," Sir Stuart said, his tone a little impatient. "Of course I know the Swords of the Cross. And the little blonde woman has two of them?"

The real question is the rest of it. It's just possible that Excalibur became Joyeuse with minimal reworking, but Cortana as Fidellachius requires more important work among Charlemagne and his Paladins than among King Arthur, whose court only had one Sword.

As for pre-Christian Sword use, Durandal is, by legend, the sword of Hector (much like Fidelacchius pre-dates the Crucifixion by being, supposedly, the sword of Susano-o).
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 07:05:28 PM
*Looks at title of thread*

... oh. Fourth Holy Sword. Not fourth 'Sword of the Cross.' Carry on.

;)

A quick wiki search shows that Ogiers the Dane wielded Cortana while Charlemagne wielded Joyeuse and Roland Durandal. Three swords made of the same metal.

The real question is the rest of it. It's just possible that Excalibur became Joyeuse with minimal reworking, but Joyeuse as Fidellachius requires more important work among Charlemagne and his Paladins than among King Arthur, whose court only had one Sword.

As for pre-Christian Sword use, Durandal is, by legend, the sword of Hector (much like Fidelacchius pre-dates the Crucifixion by being, supposedly, the sword of Susano-o).

:P

The quote by Sir Stuart regarding the Swords:

Quote
"Excalibur, Durendal, and Kusanagi, yes, yes," Sir Stuart said, his tone a little impatient. "Of course I know the Swords of the Cross. And the little blond woman has two of them?"

For the sake of the general idea I have to wonder if Sir Stuart was mistaken. Since Durendal has its own legend ascribed to it regarding what was fixed into the hilt, and the Nail was not one of them. BUT for a broken sword out of the game, and one with a legend similar to the other three it might be enough to warrant the changing of the legend to fit Esperacchius...

After all, if the sword went missing after the time of Roland and the church lost track of it, the idea behind Durandel would certainly still be of value to the church...and therefore the legend itself simply transfers to one of the remaining holy swords  :)
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: peregrine on April 16, 2015, 07:34:01 PM
I do not assert this to be a 'Sword of the Cross' in any way, that obviously requires the Nails. Just another holy sword for the fourth Archangel who may not be active any longer.
But if it's not a Sword of the Cross, why associate it with the Swords at all?
Quote

Cortana and Joyuse are separate, Curtana is reputed to have an inscription on it...

Now we know the two blades above are separate, which means it is not a re-naming of a blade that was once these two...but a blade within the same family...for the sake of the WAG its brother, Joyuse (Amoracchius) and itself (Durendal).
I meant same as Durandal.  Or of the same group, not the same as each other.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 07:39:36 PM
But if it's not a Sword of the Cross, why associate it with the Swords at all?

Working off the notion that each archangel was sort of a guardian or caretaker of a sword each we'd be one short. And since thus far only one has been theorized to be, out of commission so to speak, I wondered why there shouldn't be four blades (again not of the cross, but all in the same general league)...and what you see before you is the Waggieness of all that.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: bigdangmoose on April 16, 2015, 07:43:25 PM
Hmmm. One sword to command them, one sword to lead them all. ;D
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Foxed on April 16, 2015, 07:46:35 PM
There was an alternate theory that the fourth archangel was actually Uriel, who, befitting his role in-series as Heaven's spymaster, provided Soulfire to a mortal instead of a sword.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 07:50:47 PM
Hmmm. One sword to command them, one sword to lead them all. ;D

Least until it shattered  :-\
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 07:51:27 PM
There was an alternate theory that the fourth archangel was actually Uriel, who, befitting his role in-series as Heaven's spymaster, provided Soulfire to a mortal instead of a sword.

I had not seen that one...but based on what I outline about the who represents the swords and why, plus Uriel's connection to the guy who wielded Amoracchius, I figure he's a custodian too. He did show up as just that in his first guise after all ;)
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Foxed on April 16, 2015, 07:53:04 PM
If Raphael and his Grace are tied up in Demonreach and MacAnally's, how'd he ever get around to giving anyone a sword?

Maybe the Wardenship of Demonreach is the fourth Archangel's gift.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 07:57:39 PM
If Raphael and his Grace are tied up in Demonreach and MacAnally's, how'd he ever get around to giving anyone a sword?

Maybe the Wardenship of Demonreach is the fourth Archangel's gift.

Well the idea was the sword was gifted to Roland before he gives up his Grace to Merlin, who if you take Griffyn's theorizing to heart could have been nearing the end of his life around 800 A.D. Charlemagne was born fifty years prior and had his paladins well settled before 800. So that would be how  :)
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: knnn on April 16, 2015, 08:22:34 PM
You've also got this quote from SG:

Quote from: Skin Games
“I didn’t choose for it to do that,” I said. “Seriously. There might be some kind of copyright infringement going on here.”

Uriel smiled again.“I must admit,” he said, “I never foresaw that particular form of faith being expressed under my purview.

Now granted this could be taken in many ways, but it sounds like Uriel was "in charge" of the Lightsaber at that point.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 08:26:30 PM
You've also got this quote from SG:

Now granted this could be taken in many ways, but it sounds like Uriel was "in charge" of the Lightsaber at that point.

Uriel does have a ton of faith, in the mission, in the people he interacts with...he could totally be Fidelacchius' 'watcher' too, though I just think its fits a little better with the Trumpeter, Gabriel, loudly and boldy proclaiming. Whereas love endures, is ever present and ever patient. Uriel plays the uuber long games.

It is also possible temporary 'guardianship' might be ascribed at any time from one angel to another  :)

My own views anyways, nothing wrong with switching everyone around a little bit.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Mith on April 16, 2015, 08:45:56 PM
While I do not fully agree, since we do not know if each Archangel sponsors a specific holy sword, that was a wonderful read.  I put it up with Ms. Duck's WAGs.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 09:05:30 PM
While I do not fully agree, since we do not know if each Archangel sponsors a specific holy sword, that was a wonderful read.  I put it up with Ms. Duck's WAGs.

High praise indeed thank you.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Hofner1962 on April 16, 2015, 09:21:46 PM
that was a great read.  Excellent bringing in the extra sources.
I have nothing to add.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 09:28:52 PM
that was a great read.  Excellent bringing in the extra sources.
I have nothing to add.

Thank you sir

(http://i.imgur.com/frnXxyM.gif)
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: canpinter on April 16, 2015, 09:51:15 PM
that was perhaps the best fan theory i have ever read
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 10:24:38 PM
that was perhaps the best fan theory i have ever read

I do appreciate it
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 16, 2015, 10:27:05 PM
Just to add, in regards to which sword would be associated with which Archangel, should they actually be sponsoring one in a passive way.

Quote from: Butcher, Jim (2010-04-02). Changes: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 229). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
“Whatever you do, do it for love." - Uriel

As Gruff said, Sanya got Esperacchius (Hope) from MichaelAA.  It seems likely that it was Gabriel trumpeting loudly through Murphy in CHANGES when she briefly wielded Fidelacchius (Faith).  And Michael seemed to be on a first name basis with Uriel in SKIN GAME, having previously wielded Amoracchius (Love).  Seems like a good chance each takes a vested interest in what their sword, and its bearer, is doing.

Also, If Raphael did have a pre-crucifixion Holy Sword, but was otherwise engaged in bartending due to having given up his Grace, then it would explain how the sword could have ended up unmade.

No need for Merlin to step in and stop a death blow.  If the sword was used against an innocent, it would lose its connection to its sponsor, and leave it vulnerable.  Any number of things could have happened to then leave it shattered and broken, just like Fidelacchius.  And with no Jedi faith to encourage another's belief in the broken blade, and no active archangel to oversee its fate, it fell to the wayside of history.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 10:35:11 PM
Just to add, in regards to which sword would be associated with which Archangel, should they actually be sponsoring one in a passive way.

As Gruff said, Sanya got Esperacchius (Hope) from MichaelAA.  It seems likely that it was Gabriel trumpeting loudly through Murphy in CHANGES when she briefly wielded Fidelacchius (Faith).  And Michael seemed to be on a first name basis with Uriel in SKIN GAME, having previously wielded Amoracchius (Love).  Seems like a good chance each takes a vested interest in what their sword, and its bearer, is doing.

Also, If Raphael did have a pre-crucifixion Holy Sword, but was otherwise engaged in bartending due to having given up his Grace, then it would explain how the sword could have ended up unmade.

No need for Merlin to step in and stop a death blow.  If the sword was used against an innocent, it would lose its connection to its sponsor, and leave it vulnerable.  Any number of things could have happened to then leave it shattered and broken, just like Fidelacchius.  And with no Jedi faith to encourage another's belief in the broken blade, and no active archangel to oversee its fate, it fell to the wayside of history.

Oh sure many things. Though to be fair IF i'm distinguishing it from the Swords of the Cross (though it would be post crucifixion too), it might might have some slightly different rules surrounding it...but I like the story regarding why either way, that's mostly why I went that route.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Hofner1962 on April 16, 2015, 11:01:50 PM
One further note on Archangel cum Master Brewer.

Just about any time Harry drinks one of Mac's beers he makes a comment along the lines of
"this is proof there is a god and he wants us to be happy"
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 16, 2015, 11:04:55 PM
Oh sure many things. Though to be fair IF i'm distinguishing it from the Swords of the Cross (though it would be post crucifixion too), it might might have some slightly different rules surrounding it...but I like the story regarding why either way, that's mostly why I went that route.
Understood.  And as we know the swords were active before the crucifixion, all "four" would have simply been Holy Swords before that point in history.  After that, the three active AA's would have the nails added and became the SotC, while the fourth sponsor just grumbled about being left out while wiping his bar down.

One further note on Archangel cum Master Brewer.

Just about any time Harry drinks one of Mac's beers he makes a comment along the lines of
"this is proof there is a god and he wants us to be happy"
There have been quite a few comments along those lines, in regards to him and his drinks.  Cluebats or just poetic license?
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Mith on April 16, 2015, 11:10:22 PM
Considering that the Proof of God's Existence by Beer is an old joke, who knows?
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 16, 2015, 11:14:01 PM
Understood.  And as we know the swords were active before the crucifixion, all "four" would have simply been Holy Swords before that point in history.  After that, the three active AA's would have the nails added and became the SotC, while the fourth sponsor just grumbled about being left out while wiping his bar down.
There have been quite a few comments along those lines, in regards to him and his drinks.  Cluebats or just poetic license?

Well I had never bothered to look up his Wiki page before however:

Quote from: wikipedia
Attributes: Archangel holding a bottle or flask;

How intriguing  8)
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 16, 2015, 11:19:38 PM
Well I had never bothered to look up his Wiki page before however:

How intriguing  8)
Yeah, I thought the same.  I included it in the original theory as more circumstantial evidence, but later read that it's not to symbolize alcohol, but instead healing waters.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Mith on April 16, 2015, 11:23:28 PM
But Whiskey is the "Waters of Life"!  You can't get any more healing then that!  ;D
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 01:51:53 AM
Yeah, I thought the same.  I included it in the original theory as more circumstantial evidence, but later read that it's not to symbolize alcohol, but instead healing waters.

Either way works...a flask denoting alcohol, but filled with healing water.

Did Mac ever have a flask to anyone's recollection?
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 17, 2015, 02:27:54 AM
Either way works...a flask denoting alcohol, but filled with healing water.

Did Mac ever have a flask to anyone's recollection?
Not that I can recall.  I'm trying to remember if anyone has ever gotten drunk on Mac's beer.  Maybe one of the short stories had something.  I'm beginning to wonder if it's even all that alcoholic.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 02:29:14 AM
Not that I can recall.  I'm trying to remember if anyone has ever gotten drunk on Mac's beer.  Maybe one of the short stories had something.  I'm beginning to wonder if it's even all that alcoholic.

Mac does raise an eyebrow at Harry's insistence on drinking heavily in Changes and I think thumbed the keys away from him iirc. I'm sure its plenty potent.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Dashkull on April 17, 2015, 02:40:40 AM
Mac does raise an eyebrow at Harry's insistence on drinking heavily in Changes and I think thumbed the keys away from him iirc. I'm sure its plenty potent.

In changes he doesn't drink beer he asks for liquor. I don't think it specifies a type but fairly safe to assume it's whiskey.

However in White night he gets several beers and gets tipsy. And Mac takes his keys
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 02:44:26 AM
In changes he doesn't drink beer he asks for liquor. I don't think it specifies a type but fairly safe to assume it's whiskey.

However in White night he gets several beers and gets tipsy. And Mac takes his keys

There ya go, was mixing and matching apparently  :P
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on April 17, 2015, 04:38:43 AM
 What if a magical sword similar to warden swords was made? Posibly made with the use of soul fire, or the potential to use soulire, to channel great power against their enemies.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: knnn on April 17, 2015, 11:44:33 AM
Does it have to be a Sword that is no longer in use?   Could it possibly be that old knife Harry picked up in his latest romp?
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 02:19:48 PM
What if a magical sword similar to warden swords was made? Posibly made with the use of soul fire, or the potential to use soulire, to channel great power against their enemies.

Soulfire is still a bit of an unknown quality. We dunno if it simply gives temporary 'emphasis' on the spells/enchantments or if a sword was infused with it would allow such a power to linger. And if it requires some form of upkeep, which I suspect it would just not as much as say Harry's duster even once you get the knack of it, then you have to weigh the value vs the possible dangers.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 02:29:22 PM
Does it have to be a Sword that is no longer in use?   Could it possibly be that old knife Harry picked up in his latest romp?

Other than cuz I like the story I made?  ;D

Mostly because it fits it two ways, IF Raphael is 'out of the game' and the angels do have some connection to the Swords, then it would make sense for it to be a physical representation of his 'absence'.

Granted that still falls into the WAG mentality of reasoning, so the other argument is based on the other relics and what event they are pointing to...Spear of Longinus makes more sense.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: knnn on April 17, 2015, 04:10:38 PM
Mostly because it fits it two ways, IF Raphael is 'out of the game' and the angels do have some connection to the Swords, then it would make sense for it to be a physical representation of his 'absence'.

Ah.

Well in that case, just go with saying that there indeed were originally four Nails, and that Triclavianism is just a way to hide the fact that the forces of Heaven lost a battle.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 04:16:25 PM
Ah.

Well in that case, just go with saying that there indeed were originally four Nails, and that Triclavianism is just a way to hide the fact that the forces of Heaven lost a battle.

Haha that sounds like it would border into TT areas. But I do like the idea of a 'lost fourth nail'. Durendal was pretty specific as to what it supposedly housed in its hilt though, that's the main reason it blossomed the way it did.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 17, 2015, 04:23:15 PM
The Spear of Longinus seems more eligible to be the "sword" of the fifth archangel.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 05:12:11 PM
The Spear of Longinus seems more eligible to be the "sword" of the fifth archangel.

Considering what it did that's not half bad. Longinus however is a Saint. So was he using Lucifer's blade as an act of murder, perhaps in order to 'unmake' the blade? My guess is that blades associated with the angels don't turn or 'Fall' with their respective patrons since Amoracchius still worked when Uriel didn't have his Grace. But the spear still has power...did he 'unmake' it one way in order to give it new purpose and meaning?

Or if it was simply a human act of mercy (debatable but his being venerated to sainthood means many don't view his actions as 'sinister') that created the importance surrounding the blade and it has no tie to Big Lucy.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 17, 2015, 05:39:08 PM
Considering what it did that's not half bad. Longinus however is a Saint. So was he using Lucifer's blade as an act of murder, perhaps in order to 'unmake' the blade? My guess is that blades associated with the angels don't turn or 'Fall' with their respective patrons since Amoracchius still worked when Uriel didn't have his Grace. But the spear still has power...did he 'unmake' it one way in order to give it new purpose and meaning?

Or if it was simply a human act of mercy (debatable but his being venerated to sainthood means many don't view his actions as 'sinister') that created the importance surrounding the blade and it has no tie to Big Lucy.
The Longinus tale is very warped.  The earliest mention of him was that he was mauled by a lion nightly as punishment for what he did.  Later stories say he converted to Christianity, and his action was excused as a mercy. 

As for the Dresdenverse, there's clearly something planned for it.  A very long time ago (well before SKIN GAME) I proposed that Nico would eventually show up with an Unholy Sword, consisting of a blade with the Longinus spearhead worked into it, just like the nails have been worked into the Holy Swords.  I think I called it Timoracchius, with the root being "Fear".  So the sword he places it in would be the sword sponsored by Luci, if he gets to do that, and the spear would then be an enhancer like the nails were to the original Holy Swords that became the Swords of the Cross.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 05:52:41 PM
The Longinus tale is very warped.  The earliest mention of him was that he was mauled by a lion nightly as punishment for what he did.  Later stories say he converted to Christianity, and his action was excused as a mercy. 

As for the Dresdenverse, there's clearly something planned for it.  A very long time ago (well before SKIN GAME) I proposed that Nico would eventually show up with an Unholy Sword, consisting of a blade with the Longinus spearhead worked into it, just like the nails have been worked into the Holy Swords.  I think I called it Timoracchius, with the root being "Fear".  So the sword he places it in would be the sword sponsored by Luci, if he gets to do that, and the spear would then be an enhancer like the nails were to the original Holy Swords that became the Swords of the Cross.

Interesting. But why use the spear as the enhancer rather than enhance itself? I mean it is a blade after all. A blade enhancing another blade its like piling the three Swords of the Cross together and making a 'super sword'. But since we know their power derives from the nails, and the Spear most likely like all the other artifacts doesn't have any outside 'attachment' to power it besides the faith, (and maybe the blood), I guess I could see why you would posit using it as an attachment.

But if Lucifer had a blade, then its already out there somewhere. And since we know also the power doesn't come from the archangels themselves but they might 'oversee' one apiece, it would still ultimately be taking a holy sword, adding another holy artifact to it...and then using it for evil. Which would probably just 'unmake' or otherwise cause them to become ineffective...at least it would for the sword itself. I suppose that means you would view the Spear as not altogether 'good' just, important and powerful...the Grail for example has something more clear cut when it comes to 'positive' connections.

Which means Lucifer would have to sponsor an already 'evil' blade and either funnel his own power into it, (a la the One Ring), or use the Spear to give it that extra something. Unless he can fundamentally change the aspects of his original blade somehow.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 17, 2015, 06:48:00 PM
Interesting. But why use the spear as the enhancer rather than enhance itself? I mean it is a blade after all. A blade enhancing another blade its like piling the three Swords of the Cross together and making a 'super sword'. But since we know their power derives from the nails, and the Spear most likely like all the other artifacts doesn't have any outside 'attachment' to power it besides the faith, (and maybe the blood), I guess I could see why you would posit using it as an attachment.

But if Lucifer had a blade, then its already out there somewhere. And since we know also the power doesn't come from the archangels themselves but they might 'oversee' one apiece, it would still ultimately be taking a holy sword, adding another holy artifact to it...and then using it for evil. Which would probably just 'unmake' or otherwise cause them to become ineffective...at least it would for the sword itself. I suppose that means you would view the Spear as not altogether 'good' just, important and powerful...the Grail for example has something more clear cut when it comes to 'positive' connections.

Which means Lucifer would have to sponsor an already 'evil' blade and either funnel his own power into it, (a la the One Ring), or use the Spear to give it that extra something. Unless he can fundamentally change the aspects of his original blade somehow.
Don't forget that Amoracchius, Fidelacchius, and Esperacchius all existed before the nails.  They were all Holy Swords going by different names prior to having the nails being put in to enhance their power and grant them the moniker "Sword of the Cross". 

Whether Luci has a sword or not is highly questionable.  The swords, prior to the crucifixion, seem to have been tools for good in the world.  But if Luci was locked up before the swords were originally crafted, then he might not have had one.  Or there may be a loophole that let him make one too, after seeing that the others did.  Maybe all five have the ability to empower a single weapon to embody their will, but only three have received power boosts from the crucifixion.  The other two are still floating around, one being broken with no active archangel to oversee it, and the other being used for unholy and nefarious means.

As for the spearhead being the sword itself, I think it would be hard for a pre-existing sword of Luci's to be cast as a spearhead and then used in that fashion.  Seems more likely that it was a simply spearhead, just like the nails were simple nails, until they all played their role.  The nails combined with the Holy Swords made good Swords of the Cross, emphasizing Jesus' sacrifice rather than his murder.

If the spearhead were incorporated into an Unholy Sword sponsored by Luci, then it would presumably emphasize the murder rather than the sacrifice, and become and Unholy Sword of the Crucifixion. 

A that point, Raphael would really need to get off his butt, get the broken sword, get it repaired, and incorporate the thorns from the Crown into it somehow.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 07:00:16 PM
Don't forget that Amoracchius, Fidelacchius, and Esperacchius all existed before the nails.  They were all Holy Swords going by different names prior to having the nails being put in to enhance their power and grant them the moniker "Sword of the Cross". 

Whether Luci has a sword or not is highly questionable.  The swords, prior to the crucifixion, seem to have been tools for good in the world.  But if Luci was locked up before the swords were originally crafted, then he might not have had one.  Or there may be a loophole that let him make one too, after seeing that the others did.  Maybe all five have the ability to empower a single weapon to embody their will, but only three have received power boosts from the crucifixion.  The other two are still floating around, one being broken with no active archangel to oversee it, and the other being used for unholy and nefarious means.

As for the spearhead being the sword itself, I think it would be hard for a pre-existing sword of Luci's to be cast as a spearhead and then used in that fashion.  Seems more likely that it was a simply spearhead, just like the nails were simple nails, until they all played their role.  The nails combined with the Holy Swords made good Swords of the Cross, emphasizing Jesus' sacrifice rather than his murder.

If the spearhead were incorporated into an Unholy Sword sponsored by Luci, then it would presumably emphasize the murder rather than the sacrifice, and become and Unholy Sword of the Crucifixion. 

A that point, Raphael would really need to get off his butt, get the broken sword, get it repaired, and incorporate the thorns from the Crown into it somehow.

I don't particularly disagree with such an assessment all around...though I would of course say good is a point of view, I don't think the Saxons thought highly of Excalibur :P

But if we assume for a moment an idea like the bad guys getting their hands on the Spear and using it to empower an 'unholy blade' of sorts...assuming the blade itself is more or less equal to a Sword of the Cross...couldn't we content that A) the three Swords combined could still be a possible match for one somewhat MORE empowered sword or B) that if said unholy sword WERE vastly superior even to the three, that infusing any one of the others with one item from the 'horde' could then re-equalize the levels of power.

Or are we under the impression that Nic's seeking of the Spear is because it is inherently MORE powerful than any one single item...possibly all of them combined? Cuz I tend to see them more as five equal parts to a bigger 'thing', maybe a ritual or ceremony...or even an enhancement of faith magic combined.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 17, 2015, 07:32:18 PM
I don't particularly disagree with such an assessment all around...though I would of course say good is a point of view, I don't think the Saxons thought highly of Excalibur :P

But if we assume for a moment an idea like the bad guys getting their hands on the Spear and using it to empower an 'unholy blade' of sorts...assuming the blade itself is more or less equal to a Sword of the Cross...couldn't we content that A) the three Swords combined could still be a possible match for one somewhat MORE empowered sword or B) that if said unholy sword WERE vastly superior even to the three, that infusing any one of the others with one item from the 'horde' could then re-equalize the levels of power.

Or are we under the impression that Nic's seeking of the Spear is because it is inherently MORE powerful than any one single item...possibly all of them combined? Cuz I tend to see them more as five equal parts to a bigger 'thing', maybe a ritual or ceremony...or even an enhancement of faith magic combined.
I'm not implying that any one sword or any one artifact is more powerful than the others.  I think they would all have to be fairly equal, excepting the levels of power in which human faith might impart upon them.
 - Some believe that Lucif was the first angel, and archangel at that.  They believe that he might have been the most powerful before his fall.  That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level, placing it above the others.
 - Some believe that since Michael is supposed to be able to defeat Luci in the End Times, that he is more powerful.  That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level as well.
 - Maybe the three/four remaining Holy Swords divide a portion of faith in On High, whereas the fifth gest the sole concentration of faith  from Down Below.
 - Maybe the belief that Luci ultimately loses is enough to doom the sword to fail in a fight with one or all of the others, because deep down any faith/free will going to Luci is predicated on the idea that he will in fact lose, as their faith is truly with On High, and any power Luci gets is merely a by-product of him being the antithesis of that.

As for the artifacts...
 - Maybe the three SotC are more powerful than the other two plain Holy Swords, but if you add artifacts, then they will be equal. 
 - Maybe speahead would be more powerful because some believe it actually landed the fatal blow.
 - Maybe the nails would be more powerful because some believe he died on the cross prior to being stabbed.
 - Maybe the nails divide the faith in them evenly across the three, and one-on-one would be lesser than the faith in the spearhead.
 - Maybe the faith in the Shroud is more powerful because people associate it with the resurrection rather than just the death, and it could be more powerful than the others if used as a wrapped towel for snapping.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 07:43:10 PM
I'm not implying that any one sword or any one artifact is more powerful than the others.  I think they would all have to be fairly equal, excepting the levels of power in which human faith might impart upon them.
 - Some believe that Lucif was the first angel, and archangel at that.  They believe that he might have been the most powerful before his fall.  That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level, placing it above the others.
 - Some believe that since Michael is supposed to be able to defeat Luci in the End Times, that he is more powerful.  That belief might be enough to influence the sword's power level as well.
 - Maybe the three/four remaining Holy Swords divide a portion of faith in On High, whereas the fifth gest the sole concentration of faith  from Down Below.
 - Maybe the belief that Luci ultimately loses is enough to doom the sword to fail in a fight with one or all of the others, because deep down any faith/free will going to Luci is predicated on the idea that he will in fact lose, as their faith is truly with On High, and any power Luci gets is merely a by-product of him being the antithesis of that.

As for the artifacts...
 - Maybe the three SotC are more powerful than the other two plain Holy Swords, but if you add artifacts, then they will be equal. 
 - Maybe speahead would be more powerful because some believe it actually landed the fatal blow.
 - Maybe the nails would be more powerful because some believe he died on the cross prior to being stabbed.
 - Maybe the nails divide the faith in them evenly across the three, and one-on-one would be lesser than the faith in the spearhead.
 - Maybe the faith in the Shroud is more powerful because people associate it with the resurrection rather than just the death, and it could be more powerful than the others if used as a wrapped towel for snapping.

So ultimately what combination works best here in your view with how all this is gonna end up shaking out? As I say I think the artifacts are all pretty much equal...1A, 1B, 1C, 1D and 1E of one another...mostly because I tend to think that while they may have properties that allow them separate purposes or 'abilities' ultimately their 'true' power is to be used in conjunction with one another.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 17, 2015, 07:59:54 PM
So ultimately what combination works best here in your view with how all this is gonna end up shaking out? As I say I think the artifacts are all pretty much equal...1A, 1B, 1C, 1D and 1E of one another...mostly because I tend to think that while they may have properties that allow them separate purposes or 'abilities' ultimately their 'true' power is to be used in conjunction with one another.
It's hard to say.  I think they'd all be the same. 

But do the swords grow more powerful at times, if an archangel is actively sponsoring the actions rather than just passively?  For example, was Fidelacchius more powerful at Chichen Itza when (theoretical sponsor) Gabriel was speaking through Murphy?  When she pulled the sword, the area filled with white light, rather than a white light simply encompassing the sword.  A swipe of the sword cut through the combined wills of all of the LoON and the RK. 

Was that normal behavior, and could that be done against any bad guy?  Or was it more powerful than usual?  Did the sword's range and ability increase due to an extra presence, or does it simply match what is required?  I mean, in SMALL FAVOR, Michael's sword is shining super bright, but it only cuts through twenty feet or so of myrk surrounding them.  Is the myrk cast by a few dozen hobs more powerful than the combined might of the thirteen most powerful Rampires at their place of power, each of which was nearly equal to Odin's power?

It seems like there's variation in power levels as they are.  Once we add in all the other factors, I just don't know.  Could Luci even actively sponsor a sword wielded by Nico, even when he's already got another angel in his head?  And would it require another archangel to actively sponsor a sword to counter it?

I just don't know. 
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 17, 2015, 08:12:22 PM
It's hard to say.  I think they'd all be the same. 

But do the swords grow more powerful at times, if an archangel is actively sponsoring the actions rather than just passively?  For example, was Fidelacchius more powerful at Chichen Itza when (theoretical sponsor) Gabriel was speaking through Murphy?  When she pulled the sword, the area filled with white light, rather than a white light simply encompassing the sword.  A swipe of the sword cut through the combined wills of all of the LoON and the RK. 

Was that normal behavior, and could that be done against any bad guy?  Or was it more powerful than usual?  Did the sword's range and ability increase due to an extra presence, or does it simply match what is required?  I mean, in SMALL FAVOR, Michael's sword is shining super bright, but it only cuts through twenty feet or so of myrk surrounding them.  Is the myrk cast by a few dozen hobs more powerful than the combined might of the thirteen most powerful Rampires at their place of power, each of which was nearly equal to Odin's power?

It seems like there's variation in power levels as they are.  Once we add in all the other factors, I just don't know.  Could Luci even actively sponsor a sword wielded by Nico, even when he's already got another angel in his head?  And would it require another archangel to actively sponsor a sword to counter it?

I just don't know.

That makes me wonder if the swords aren't at their least powerful in some ways when facing off against Denarians?

I say this because as you say earlier many incarnations of these blades could be viewed as 'holy swords' prior to taking on roles as Swords of the Cross, (though I wonder more if they weren't all always SoTC in the DV). But either way it shakes out, they are used over the course of time to fight and counter 'evil'. The one glaring exception is the Denarians...whom they are perfectly able to fight, injure, kill...but only if said Denarian keeps his coin and desire to remain unrepentant. Because they are still human. And the power winks outs instantly if they divest themselves of the coins...a vampire or a hob has no such protection. So it makes me wonder if the Swords don't have an auto-limiter in place when it comes to fighting the Denarians because at the end of the day as Michael has said many times...their job is to try and SAVE the Denarians from themselves and the Fallen.

So I would argue the Swords are never less powerful in some ways than when they are fighting a being who, at base level, is still human.

The Hobbs represented a supernatural threat, the Sword reacted in kind. Blindingly so. But they were still only SO much of a threat. It reacted even more at CI, proportionally to the threat represented there. So I think intrinsically tied into the swords power are these 'limiters' that can come off or be cast aside based on the evil before them. Now whether it requires angelic oversight and their 'patron' to decide, i.e. Gabriel thru Murphy...or is it an automatic process? And if so, which gives the angels more of a 'link' or avenue to act...the ability to remove such limiters, or the pathway created because more power is being drawn on, therefore the conduit has grown stronger allowing them access?

Its all rather intriguing.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: magnusth on April 17, 2015, 11:53:02 PM
Well, I don't think there's a fourth sword, but if there is, I'd think i'd be Uriel's. It doesn't seem like raphael, michael or gabriel to have a hidden, secret, think; that's more uriel's style. If i had to connect him directly with any artifact, it'd be the lance, though. Why? Well, because uriel is the doer of bad but nessecary thing. He was the one who smote sodom, killed the first-born of egypt, ect. ect. He's the one who acts in secret, does things which seem bad, but for the greater good. Killing the Christ seems to fit into this mold. It's not nice, certainly, but it was merciful to end his pain and he needed to die as a sacrifice, a lamb of god. So if someone forced my hand, I'd say uriel was associated with the spear of destiny.

However, i think that's the wrong paradigm. While some arch-angels might have a greater responsibility than others, I think that all the swords are essentially under uriel's purview. Why? two reasons. First, there's the quote in ghost story where Uriel comments that when the other side circumvents free will, it is his job to step in with equal power to balance the scales.  Secondly, there's the quote from Skin Game where he talks about something being expressed under "his purview," in the context of a change to the sword. This suggests to me that the job of uriel is to protect free will and the expression thereof, which lines him up with the overarching purpose of the swords, to free people of the influence of fallen Angels. That said, other archangels may be involved during specific expression's of the swords's power and faith - Gabriel might have been the one pronouncing judgement allmighty on the LoONs, for example - but i think Uriel is the overarching custodian of the swords.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 18, 2015, 12:05:51 AM
Well, I don't think there's a fourth sword, but if there is, I'd think i'd be Uriel's. It doesn't seem like raphael, michael or gabriel to have a hidden, secret, think; that's more uriel's style. If i had to connect him directly with any artifact, it'd be the lance, though. Why? Well, because uriel is the doer of bad but nessecary thing. He was the one who smote sodom, killed the first-born of egypt, ect. ect. He's the one who acts in secret, does things which seem bad, but for the greater good. Killing the Christ seems to fit into this mold. It's not nice, certainly, but it was merciful to end his pain and he needed to die as a sacrifice, a lamb of god. So if someone forced my hand, I'd say uriel was associated with the spear of destiny.

However, i think that's the wrong paradigm. While some arch-angels might have a greater responsibility than others, I think that all the swords are essentially under uriel's purview. Why? two reasons. First, there's the quote in ghost story where Uriel comments that when the other side circumvents free will, it is his job to step in with equal power to balance the scales.  Secondly, there's the quote from Skin Game where he talks about something being expressed under "his purview," in the context of a change to the sword. This suggests to me that the job of uriel is to protect free will and the expression thereof, which lines him up with the overarching purpose of the swords, to free people of the influence of fallen Angels. That said, other archangels may be involved during specific expression's of the swords's power and faith - Gabriel might have been the one pronouncing judgement allmighty on the LoONs, for example - but i think Uriel is the overarching custodian of the swords.

I would have to disagree that Uriel was the one wielding the Spear to kill Christ. The whole ordeal for Jesus would have had to be free willed mortals running the show for any of it to matter or give significance to the events. An angel wouldn't have been able to step in on their own, and seeing as how the whole point was suffering and dying for our sins...I doubt an angel would have been sent to intervene in any way.

As to the swords I've made allowances that influence or sponsorship might be passed around between all the angels certainly. But in addition to the likelihood that Gabriel was the one speaking thru Murphy, MichaelAA was the one who gifted Esperacchius to Sanya, not Uriel. So my guess is they are all custodians of a sword, with room to interchange because as angels it makes sense that the swords are ALL their responsibilities on some level. But one angel being responsible for them all? Nah.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 18, 2015, 12:11:57 AM
Well, I don't think there's a fourth sword, but if there is, I'd think i'd be Uriel's. It doesn't seem like raphael, michael or gabriel to have a hidden, secret, think; that's more uriel's style. If i had to connect him directly with any artifact, it'd be the lance, though. Why? Well, because uriel is the doer of bad but nessecary thing. He was the one who smote sodom, killed the first-born of egypt, ect. ect. He's the one who acts in secret, does things which seem bad, but for the greater good. Killing the Christ seems to fit into this mold. It's not nice, certainly, but it was merciful to end his pain and he needed to die as a sacrifice, a lamb of god. So if someone forced my hand, I'd say uriel was associated with the spear of destiny.

However, i think that's the wrong paradigm. While some arch-angels might have a greater responsibility than others, I think that all the swords are essentially under uriel's purview. Why? two reasons. First, there's the quote in ghost story where Uriel comments that when the other side circumvents free will, it is his job to step in with equal power to balance the scales.  Secondly, there's the quote from Skin Game where he talks about something being expressed under "his purview," in the context of a change to the sword. This suggests to me that the job of uriel is to protect free will and the expression thereof, which lines him up with the overarching purpose of the swords, to free people of the influence of fallen Angels. That said, other archangels may be involved during specific expression's of the swords's power and faith - Gabriel might have been the one pronouncing judgement allmighty on the LoONs, for example - but i think Uriel is the overarching custodian of the swords.
The swords could all be under one angel, but it doesn't really fit with what we know.
 - Michael the Archangel gave Sanya his sword, Esperacchius.  Why would he be involved if it's Uriel's show?
 - It certainly seemed like Gabriel that was trumpeting through Murphy when she wielded Fidelacchius as it filled the area with light.  It matches Mab's description of him walking "in a chorus of light".
 - Michael seemed personally familiar with Uriel, having been unsurprised by his appearance in SKIN GAME.  It seemed like they'd talked before.

On the flip side of "sponsorship"
 - Michael's house has a safe room with work by Raphael or his lieutenants.  That might imply that Michael and Amorracchius are associated with that sword.
 - Uriel's comment about being surprised that Fidelacchius took on that specific form of faith under his purview might indicate that he's associated with that sword.
 - Esperacchius seems decidedly under MichaelAA's purview, as he gave it out.

Then again, maybe the swords have no connection to the angels at all.  But it seems possible.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Jcarlson171 on April 18, 2015, 02:23:59 AM
First I really like the theory

My several cents
-lucy probably doesnt have a sword running around because Im pretty sure that would upset the balance since he got thirty coins when this was going down
-If we are assigning archangels to swords because nails then we probably need to assign one to the spear, shroud, crown, and cup because they all had Christs blood
-the Swords level the playing field between their wielder and the current threat I believe that not only Harry says this but there is a WOJ IIRC so variable power is expected since entire red court >>> lots of hobgoblins on threat meter
- Cortana could be a weapon kept in hades vault for the instances of really needing it new defender of the gate qualifies explaining why it disappears after hastings since they dont really need a sword of endurance normally (My WAG this sword might allow one person to hold the gate for a time as a new guardian ascends to power)
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Hofner1962 on April 18, 2015, 03:18:26 AM
On the flip side of "sponsorship"
 - Michael's house has a safe room with work by Raphael or his lieutenants.  That might imply that Michael and Amorracchius are associated with that sword.
Where is this mentioned and if it is Raphael how does this fit with Raphael being Mac with his mantle gone walkabout?
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 18, 2015, 03:38:59 AM
Where is this mentioned and if it is Raphael how does this fit with Raphael being Mac with his mantle gone walkabout?

Lash in PG with regards to the concealment wards on the Carpenter panic room:

Quote
"Aye. Raphael or one of his lieutenants, from the feel of it".

This was my original point of contention for Raphael still being active, that he would be more likely to do the work himself, (assuming availability) as we know Uriel and Michael are friends. More wiggle room to be dealt with, could go either way.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Mith on April 18, 2015, 04:19:46 AM
Raphael would do it himself if he was around.  If not, one of his lieutenants would do it in his stead, so it still works.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on April 18, 2015, 05:12:05 AM
the angel that guarded the garden of eden, is said to have given his sword to adam and eve. so the sword might be possible/
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 18, 2015, 05:27:08 AM
Where is this mentioned and if it is Raphael how does this fit with Raphael being Mac with his mantle gone walkabout?
In Proven Guilty, I believe.  When Harry sees the warded room in the Carpenter house, Lash confirms it's angelic work.  She says it's the work of "Rafael or one of his lieutenants".

As to the Raphael/Mac theory, there are several possibilities to explain it away, with varying degrees of likelihood.

1) Lash knows Raphael gave up his Grace, but doesn't know or believe that he'd truly leave himself powerless.  She thinks he still could have done the work. (She's seen Mac through Harry's eyes, so the question is does she know who he is, and does she know he's completely powerless?)
2) Lash says Rafael out of immediate recognition, but then adds "or one of his lieutenants" as she remembers that he couldn't have. (She doesn't bother explaining, because it wouldn't do her any good to let Harry know he actually knows someone he could really talk to about having the imprint in his head.)
3) Rafael and Raphael aren't the same angel. She says it's angelic work, not archangelic, so it might be a lower tier angel. (A letter makes all the difference between Uriel and Ursiel. But it seems unlikely, as the names Raphael/Rafael have no difference in meaning, and you know how angels feel about their name and it's meaning.)
4) Lasciel fell just as humanity was getting it's start.  As the theory has Raphael giving up his Grace after that, the specifics of his situation might not be known. (Same question as #1, did she recognize Mac and suspect what might have happened, and if so, did she stay silent out of self preservation?)
5) The theory is wrong, and Raphael is still active as an archangel.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 18, 2015, 02:06:24 PM
In Proven Guilty, I believe.  When Harry sees the warded room in the Carpenter house, Lash confirms it's angelic work.  She says it's the work of "Rafael or one of his lieutenants".

As to the Raphael/Mac theory, there are several possibilities to explain it away, with varying degrees of likelihood.

1) Lash knows Raphael gave up his Grace, but doesn't know or believe that he'd truly leave himself powerless.  She thinks he still could have done the work. (She's seen Mac through Harry's eyes, so the question is does she know who he is, and does she know he's completely powerless?)
2) Lash says Rafael out of immediate recognition, but then adds "or one of his lieutenants" as she remembers that he couldn't have. (She doesn't bother explaining, because it wouldn't do her any good to let Harry know he actually knows someone he could really talk to about having the imprint in his head.)
3) Rafael and Raphael aren't the same angel. She says it's angelic work, not archangelic, so it might be a lower tier angel. (A letter makes all the difference between Uriel and Ursiel. But it seems unlikely, as the names Raphael/Rafael have no difference in meaning, and you know how angels feel about their name and it's meaning.)
4) Lasciel fell just as humanity was getting it's start.  As the theory has Raphael giving up his Grace after that, the specifics of his situation might not be known. (Same question as #1, did she recognize Mac and suspect what might have happened, and if so, did she stay silent out of self preservation?)
5) The theory is wrong, and Raphael is still active as an archangel.

For my money its gotta be either 1/4, (which is tantamount to the same thing, she still believes him to be active. theory alive), or 5 (theory dead). Now if as presumed Mac IS Raph I would say we need to look back at how many times and when Harry/Mac interacted when she was in his head. Our choices are as follows:

Blood Rites: she's percolating in his head, I do not recall Mac's coming into play here as they were dealing with the Blacks and Whites, first Hellfire usage. So first real influence.

Dead Beat: Meeting of the Warden's at Mac's for Harry's recruitment. Lots of other problems going on, focus not likely on Mac.

Proven Guilty: Summit with the Ladies of Winter and Summer. Again, more pressing events.

White Night: Dead.

So, while Lash might have been able to take in everything at everytime, each trip resulted in more urgent matters to garner her attention...either to later tempt or help Harry with. It is simultaneously possible that AS a Graceless mortal in a human vessel that Mac doesn't raise any alarm bells to a Fallen who has, by the attesting of many, not gotten out a lot. Nic usally keeps her well under wraps. And if the angels have been battling the Outsiders in some way or another since time began, a Walker might be able to recognize Mac in any form...whereas the imprint of a Fallen at least might have a chance of not noticing...especially if attention is divided elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 18, 2015, 03:40:57 PM
For my money its gotta be either 1/4, (which is tantamount to the same thing, she still believes him to be active. theory alive), or 5 (theory dead). Now if as presumed Mac IS Raph I would say we need to look back at how many times and when Harry/Mac interacted when she was in his head. Our choices are as follows:

Blood Rites: she's percolating in his head, I do not recall Mac's coming into play here as they were dealing with the Blacks and Whites, first Hellfire usage. So first real influence.

Dead Beat: Meeting of the Warden's at Mac's for Harry's recruitment. Lots of other problems going on, focus not likely on Mac.

Proven Guilty: Summit with the Ladies of Winter and Summer. Again, more pressing events.

White Night: Dead.

So, while Lash might have been able to take in everything at everytime, each trip resulted in more urgent matters to garner her attention...either to later tempt or help Harry with. It is simultaneously possible that AS a Graceless mortal in a human vessel that Mac doesn't raise any alarm bells to a Fallen who has, by the attesting of many, not gotten out a lot. Nic usally keeps her well under wraps. And if the angels have been battling the Outsiders in some way or another since time began, a Walker might be able to recognize Mac in any form...whereas the imprint of a Fallen at least might have a chance of not noticing...especially if attention is divided elsewhere.
I'm not sure that Lash's attention could really be 'divided'.  She's got perfect recall, and as you said, picked up on everything Harry saw and heard. 

Assuming for the moment that the theory is correct, then Mac would most likely have been without his Grace, or any other power, for millenia.  I'm not sure if the Fallen would recognize the transubstantiated form of another angel without any trace of their Grace or power.  Nico recognized Uriel, but that was when Uriel still had his Grace.  If he had transubstantiated into a form Nico had never seen, Jake perhaps, then would Nico have recognized him?  (That might be such a back door way of inquiring about the theory without being obvious that we might get an answer from JB...)

It seems possible, but if the theory is right, I doubt we'd ever get that much detail.  It'd probably just go unmentioned. 
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 18, 2015, 03:55:23 PM
the angel that guarded the garden of eden, is said to have given his sword to adam and eve. so the sword might be possible/

The angel guarding the Garden is said to be Uriel, with a fiery sword and he's supposed to be a cherub...not an archangel. So already none of that likely applies.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Bergi on April 20, 2015, 09:12:34 AM
Maybe an idea that can be thrown in with this:
What if Merlin collected the shards and made new swords of them, swords for the wardens to come after him. And this is where the Wardenswords come from.

And something maybe against this theory:
Does Lucifer as a former Archangel have a blade too?
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Denarian-31 on April 20, 2015, 09:30:14 AM
Maybe an idea that can be thrown in with this:
What if Merlin collected the shards and made new swords of them, swords for the wardens to come after him. And this is where the Wardenswords come from.

And something maybe against this theory:
Does Lucifer as a former Archangel have a blade too?

Commence HellSword WAGs

Which btw I would love! :P
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 20, 2015, 02:26:35 PM
Maybe an idea that can be thrown in with this:
What if Merlin collected the shards and made new swords of them, swords for the wardens to come after him. And this is where the Wardenswords come from.

And something maybe against this theory:
Does Lucifer as a former Archangel have a blade too?

Well conventional wisdom tells us that, as cool as the idea would be, that the creation of humanity was at least in part, (or wholly depending on your interpretation), the reason for Lucifer's 'rebellion'. So since he would have Fallen before the Swords would have likely been formed in any incarnations, its not likely unfortunately.

As for the first bit its not a bad idea...I would point out however that the Warden Sword thing seems to run exclusivelythru Luccio. Now while its certainly possible she learned it thru something like Merlin's journals, (assuming Eb lends them out), I would then wonder why no one else seemed capable of learning it. And Eb is a practical guy, if the answer to making the blades were in that treasure trove of info my guess is he would not leave the Council incapable of defending itself by holding onto such knowledge...especially if its one they already had access to.

So my guess is the swords are Luccio's deal, not an overall Council skill...seeing as how there are no more swords being created.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 20, 2015, 03:07:33 PM
Commence HellSword WAGs

Which btw I would love! :P

Don't be shy then, this is a thread for all things pointy  8)
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on April 21, 2015, 04:46:36 AM
the swords of the cross comes with restrictions correct, it was why murphy could not harm nic that time. would the hellsword have it own restrictions that can be used against it?
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Griffyn612 on April 21, 2015, 05:01:42 AM
the swords of the cross comes with restrictions correct, it was why murphy could not harm nic that time. would the hellsword have it own restrictions that can be used against it?
Are you asking if the bad guys play by the rules? 
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Arjan on April 21, 2015, 05:50:33 AM
The swords could all be under one angel, but it doesn't really fit with what we know.
 - Michael the Archangel gave Sanya his sword, Esperacchius.  Why would he be involved if it's Uriel's show?
 - It certainly seemed like Gabriel that was trumpeting through Murphy when she wielded Fidelacchius as it filled the area with light.  It matches Mab's description of him walking "in a chorus of light".
 - Michael seemed personally familiar with Uriel, having been unsurprised by his appearance in SKIN GAME.  It seemed like they'd talked before.

On the flip side of "sponsorship"
 - Michael's house has a safe room with work by Raphael or his lieutenants.  That might imply that Michael and Amorracchius are associated with that sword.
 - Uriel's comment about being surprised that Fidelacchius took on that specific form of faith under his purview might indicate that he's associated with that sword.
 - Esperacchius seems decidedly under MichaelAA's purview, as he gave it out.

Then again, maybe the swords have no connection to the angels at all.  But it seems possible.
I think it is more likely that all three swords have a different angle associated with it similar to the coins but operating under slightly different rules. It fits ideas of balance. When the coins were made heaven reacted in balance and created the swords.

The swords have their own nature and their own will. Harry seemed to communicate with one in small favor.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Bergi on April 21, 2015, 10:48:19 AM
About the Hellsword:
Maybe it is not a sword, but the Athame. It is a equal trade to Amoracchius and Harry questions if it is in league with it. And i mean a evil dagger would be much more fitting for backstabbing evil guys ;) And since time is not really a matter to archangels before and after humans don't matter.

About the wardens swords:
When Demonreach waffles about the Warden he says that at first there was only one and then there were many. So what if Merlin locked away all the big bad guys and then realized that there are still plenty of bad guys out. So he picked up the shards he still had stored away safe and does some powerful magic on them that bends their purpose because now they are able to kill innocents. He then teaches the leader to be of the wardens how to make the swords and seals himself away.
Why is it such an hidden spell?
1) Making more swords would dimish the power because they all tap into one power source.
2) Bending the purpose of something this powerful could be bad
3) Knowing how to create something probably means you can undo it to.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 21, 2015, 12:34:31 PM
The swords have their own nature and their own will. Harry seemed to communicate with one in small favor.

I don't exactly recall what you might be referencing here, when was that?
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 21, 2015, 01:24:55 PM
About the Hellsword:
Maybe it is not a sword, but the Athame. It is a equal trade to Amoracchius and Harry questions if it is in league with it. And i mean a evil dagger would be much more fitting for backstabbing evil guys ;) And since time is not really a matter to archangels before and after humans don't matter.

Morgana's you mean?

Quote
About the wardens swords:
When Demonreach waffles about the Warden he says that at first there was only one and then there were many. So what if Merlin locked away all the big bad guys and then realized that there are still plenty of bad guys out. So he picked up the shards he still had stored away safe and does some powerful magic on them that bends their purpose because now they are able to kill innocents. He then teaches the leader to be of the wardens how to make the swords and seals himself away.
Why is it such an hidden spell?
1) Making more swords would dimish the power because they all tap into one power source.
2) Bending the purpose of something this powerful could be bad
3) Knowing how to create something probably means you can undo it to.

Problem is there is never a fixed amount of Warden's. Some years they might have 200, some years 188, some back up to 212...and so on. And it still doesn't help them if the Captain dies or becomes incapacitated, as we have seen with Luccio, because she hasn't taught anyone how to make them...there is no guarantee she will ever get her ability to do so back. So it would be prudent to teach someone new if she could, like Chandler for instance, someone with skill and a trustworthy reputation.

The fact that she hasn't speaks more to it being a personal ability of hers more so than a secret art lineage I think.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Arjan on April 21, 2015, 02:09:54 PM
I don't exactly recall what you might be referencing here, when was that?
I do not have the book with me now but when Harry was alone on the island with the swords he touched one and it seemed to explain things to Harry. You can read it differently but that is what I read in it and it fits.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 21, 2015, 02:17:41 PM
I do not have the book with me now but when Harry was alone on the island with the swords he touched one and it seemed to explain things to Harry. You can read it differently but that is what I read in it and it fits.

Its not about a different read, its about not having the faintest memory such a moment existed.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Bergi on April 21, 2015, 04:13:39 PM
About one of the swords "talking" to Harry i can't remember either.

About the Hellsword yes i mean Morgana's, it is one of those things still shrouded into much mystery.
And another point are the warden swords, they too are still not much explained. But i always had the impression that they were something that dates back to Merlin running around with a sword and somehow was created after his retreat. About the changing numbers of swords i don't have a problem with this, they are just something like power plugs one or two more or less are not important but too many would be bad. Maybe the knowledge about creating those swords makes you leader of the wardens, where Luccio hasn't found anyone worth it up to now.

Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 21, 2015, 05:39:10 PM
About one of the swords "talking" to Harry i can't remember either.

About the Hellsword yes i mean Morgana's, it is one of those things still shrouded into much mystery.
And another point are the warden swords, they too are still not much explained. But i always had the impression that they were something that dates back to Merlin running around with a sword and somehow was created after his retreat. About the changing numbers of swords i don't have a problem with this, they are just something like power plugs one or two more or less are not important but too many would be bad. Maybe the knowledge about creating those swords makes you leader of the wardens, where Luccio hasn't found anyone worth it up to now.

Just seems like more trouble than its worth to deny the Council a vital and valuable tool, especially when they were at war, if the knowledge was able to be passed down. Since it wasn't its more logical that it was a skill unique to Luccio.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Arjan on April 21, 2015, 06:01:29 PM
Its not about a different read, its about not having the faintest memory such a moment existed.

Quote
I seized the hilt of Fidelacchius from where the Sword had fallen. As my fingers closed around the weapon I realized several points of cold logic, as if having them explained to me by a calm, rational, wise old man who was utterly unperturbed by my rage.

It is not actually proof but I think it is pretty suggestive.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 21, 2015, 06:12:34 PM
It is not actually proof but I think it is pretty suggestive.

The key phrase there being 'I realized'. So while I think the Sword's presence gave him some measure of calm and steadied his nerve certainly, be that an inherent trait of the blade or Harry's own subconscious association with its power, but the blade itself didn't spell out the insight...he just got put in a better frame of mind to hash out what he already knew logically but his rage was clouding it.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Arjan on April 21, 2015, 06:24:40 PM
The key phrase there being 'I realized'. So while I think the Sword's presence gave him some measure of calm and steadied his nerve certainly, be that an inherent trait of the blade or Harry's own subconscious association with its power, but the blade itself didn't spell out the insight...he just got put in a better frame of mind to hash out what he already knew logically but his rage was clouding it.
You can read it like that.

But the "as if" was far too detailed for just a realisation and if you combine that with how magic seems to work in the dresdenverse, how balance seems to work. How everything is not spelled out and how the swords often enough seem to have a will of their own....

And angels are not known for their long chats giving valuable information. The angel in the sword is operating as expected, giving enough room to human free will.

It could have been a glympse of something more. Jim does not always spells these things out.

Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 21, 2015, 06:32:13 PM
You can read it like that.

But the "as if" was far too detailed for just a realisation and if you combine that with how magic seems to work in the dresdenverse, how balance seems to work. How everything is not spelled out and how the swords often enough seem to have a will of their own....

And angels are not known for their long chats giving valuable information. The angel in the sword is operating as expected, giving enough room to human free will.

It could have been a glympse of something more. Jim does not always spells these things out.

True enough, but 'as if' could just as easily be that calm voice in your head that always seems to get ignored...and the Sword gave him peace of mind to hear it...rather than an external voice. After all, he isn't a Knight, even if the Sword could 'communicate' in some way, or an angel uses it as a channel, there was nothing to balance out there. I don't see how they would be allowed to just up and 'give' Harry insight. Nor do I see the Blades being capable of instilling direct, personalized thought process other than perhaps to be a calming force which helps one naturally clear their mind.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: B33bl3br0x on April 21, 2015, 06:36:32 PM
Morgana's you mean?

[quote[About the wardens swords:
When Demonreach waffles about the Warden he says that at first there was only one and then there were many. So what if Merlin locked away all the big bad guys and then realized that there are still plenty of bad guys out. So he picked up the shards he still had stored away safe and does some powerful magic on them that bends their purpose because now they are able to kill innocents. He then teaches the leader to be of the wardens how to make the swords and seals himself away.
Why is it such an hidden spell?
1) Making more swords would dimish the power because they all tap into one power source.
2) Bending the purpose of something this powerful could be bad
3) Knowing how to create something probably means you can undo it to.


Problem is there is never a fixed amount of Warden's. Some years they might have 200, some years 188, some back up to 212...and so on. And it still doesn't help them if the Captain dies or becomes incapacitated, as we have seen with Luccio, because she hasn't taught anyone how to make them...there is no guarantee she will ever get her ability to do so back. So it would be prudent to teach someone new if she could, like Chandler for instance, someone with skill and a trustworthy reputation.

The fact that she hasn't speaks more to it being a personal ability of hers more so than a secret art lineage I think.
About one of the swords "talking" to Harry i can't remember either.

About the Hellsword yes i mean Morgana's, it is one of those things still shrouded into much mystery.
And another point are the warden swords, they too are still not much explained. But i always had the impression that they were something that dates back to Merlin running around with a sword and somehow was created after his retreat. About the changing numbers of swords i don't have a problem with this, they are just something like power plugs one or two more or less are not important but too many would be bad. Maybe the knowledge about creating those swords makes you leader of the wardens, where Luccio hasn't found anyone worth it up to now.



In White Night Luccio tells him that the swords are her design.

Quote
She smiled briefly. The expression had entirely too much weight and subtlety for a face so young. "The fact of the matter is that the swords the Wardens have used in your lifetime must be tailored specifically to each individual Warden. They were also all articles of my creation - and I am no longer capable of creating them."

I frowned and imbibed more coffee. "Because..." I gestured at her vaguely.

She nodded. "This body did not possess the same potential, the same aptitudes for magic as my own. Returning to my former level of ability will be problematical, and will happen no time soon." She shrugged, her expression neutral, but I had a feeling she was covering a lot of frustration and bitterness. "Until someone else manages to adapt my design to their own talents, or until I have retrained myself, I'm afraid that no more such blades will be issued."
White Night Chapter 22

Doesn't that mean that there were no such swords before she created them?

[EDIT]I suppose the wording does allow for the possibility that they carried different, similar weaponry. Or even swords of a different design. Though given the history of man, before Luccio came into the picture swords were pretty much all there were.[end edit]
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 21, 2015, 06:45:55 PM
In White Night Luccio tells him that the swords are her design.
 White Night Chapter 22

Doesn't that mean that there were no such swords before she created them?

[EDIT]I suppose the wording does allow for the possibility that they carried different, similar weaponry. Or even swords of a different design. Though given the history of man, before Luccio came into the picture swords were pretty much all there were.[end edit]

Exactly. Magical weaponry in principle has been around since magic...but the Swords are her thing. Learnable if and only if they can adapt their magic to a similar temperament as her own, but not hidden secret arts.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on April 23, 2015, 03:42:15 AM
just because it is a weapon of the enemy, does not mean it has to be used by the enemy? harry is used to dealing with hellfire, also, denarians would be vulnerable to a hellfire blade.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 23, 2015, 12:39:41 PM
Hellfire is just a spell augmenter not an actual fire that can be used against its users.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on April 24, 2015, 06:03:54 AM
i think hellfire was used to make the circle used too deal with the archive by the fallen.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 24, 2015, 06:21:04 AM
i think hellfire was used to make the circle used too deal with the archive by the fallen.

Not a big stretch since they say just that in the book.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Arjan on April 24, 2015, 10:30:48 AM
Not a big stretch since they say just that in the book.
Actually no, hellfire is too unstable. That is why they needed e nexus of ley lines and that is how Harry and Lucio found them. Lucio had a ley line map.

Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Denarian-31 on April 24, 2015, 10:49:22 AM
It is heavily implied that they had some help from a former archangel too....
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 24, 2015, 01:47:32 PM
Actually no, hellfire is too unstable. That is why they needed e nexus of ley lines and that is how Harry and Lucio found them. Lucio had a ley line map.

Those initial circles were hellfire powered. Same design. Yeah they needed the ley lines but they had to infuse their own power into it somehow...and so they used their own Hellfire powered magic. It's a power booster.
Title: Re: The Fourth Holy Sword
Post by: Eldest Gruff on April 24, 2015, 05:48:41 PM
It is heavily implied that they had some help from a former archangel too....

Just a tad.