This is great! Well done, April!
IIRC, the battle in FoC is called "The Second Battle of Calderon." I'm trying to find a date for First Calderon and coming up blank, but for some reason I feel like it was within two years of Tavi's birth. I might be completely making it up, though.
This is great! Well done, April!
IIRC, the battle in FoC is called "The Second Battle of Calderon." I'm trying to find a date for First Calderon and coming up blank, but for some reason I feel like it was within two years of Tavi's birth. I might be completely making it up, though.
Welll....given various hints....it has to be within a certain 9 month period.
This is great! Well done, April!
IIRC, the battle in FoC is called "The Second Battle of Calderon." I'm trying to find a date for First Calderon and coming up blank, but for some reason I feel like it was within two years of Tavi's birth. I might be completely making it up, though.
Welll....given various hints....it has to be within a certain 9 month period.
Yeah, but wasn't there talk in another thread about how someone must have lied about Tavi's age yada yada yada? Ignore me, I don't know what I'm talking about.
Do we know for sure that they said that Tavi was born -during- First Calderon? If it happened say 14 years ago, and Isana told Tavi he was 17...well, you get the point. :)
What I'm saying is do we know the exact date of the First Calderon compared to Tavi's supposed age? The book does keep saying how Tavi's very small for his age and so on--if Isana's saying he was older than he is, to get him away from First Calderon's date, that'd work well. :) I just don't recall if there's an exact time on First Calderon. Now I'm curious.
Though oddly, looking at the book (to get information to comment further on), Tavi insists that First Calderon happened far before he was born--it's in the section with the Princeps' Monument.Exactly. If Isana wanted to hide that Tavi was born in that 9 month window following First Calderon, she could give him a fictitious birthdate a year or so after that window, to keep people from possibly connecting the dots.
Er. Or a year or two before, which was my point. The problem is if his birthdate is -after- then he really, /really/ is small for his age. Remember, he's supposed to be small for his age. If his fake birthdate is a while -after- First Calderon, then he's actually -very- small for his age. :)
Er. Or a year or two before, which was my point. The problem is if his birthdate is -after- then he really, /really/ is small for his age. Remember, he's supposed to be small for his age. If his fake birthdate is a while -after- First Calderon, then he's actually -very- small for his age. :)
Er. Or a year or two before, which was my point. The problem is if his birthdate is -after- then he really, /really/ is small for his age. Remember, he's supposed to be small for his age. If his fake birthdate is a while -after- First Calderon, then he's actually -very- small for his age. :)
There is no need for Isana to lie about his age. It was revealed in the second book that all unmarried women had to serve in the camps of the legions, so I can't believe that Tavi is the only one who was fathered during that time.
Moreover not many of those who might know about Septimus' and Isana's relationship survived the FC and in case someone remembered Isana made up the story of Tavi being the son of her sister.
Er. Or a year or two before, which was my point. The problem is if his birthdate is -after- then he really, /really/ is small for his age. Remember, he's supposed to be small for his age. If his fake birthdate is a while -after- First Calderon, then he's actually -very- small for his age. :)
There is no need for Isana to lie about his age. It was revealed in the second book that all unmarried women had to serve in the camps of the legions, so I can't believe that Tavi is the only one who was fathered during that time.
Moreover not many of those who might know about Septimus' and Isana's relationship survived the FC and in case someone remembered Isana made up the story of Tavi being the son of her sister.
No need, but if you were hiding something that big, wouldn't you like a little extra 'insurance'? I mean, no one is going to say, "Wow, this furyless kid was born x months after FC, and Septimus was unmarried, he must be the missing heir!" But changing his birthdate might be enough to distract someone who was potentially putting the pieces together. Kind of a Jedi mind trick sort of strategy.
No need, but if you were hiding something that big, wouldn't you like a little extra 'insurance'? I mean, no one is going to say, "Wow, this furyless kid was born x months after FC, and Septimus was unmarried, he must be the missing heir!" But changing his birthdate might be enough to distract someone who was potentially putting the pieces together. Kind of a Jedi mind trick sort of strategy.
And I think Kitai's age is mentioned somewhere. This promises to be fun!
... Could Isana have saved some sperm and then after learning of Septimus' death, fathered a child?
We know that Isana said she has one fury.. Rill.. but when she was crafting Tavi's potential into suppression, she said that Furies... plural ... around the steadholt would do it for her with but little thought on her part... why were there extra furies helping... we know that the furies in the steadholts are more violent and independant... stronger.... so why would these other furies be willing to help... unless perhaps they were drawn to Tavi's potential... and since they knew it was at this time in his best interest.... they helped...because they recognized his bloodline...From the things Jim has said, Furies don't really have that much intelligence and independence of thought. While someone like Isana might only have one main fury, any furycrafter can do things with the many myriad smaller furies imbuing the world around them. The furylights are a good example. All you have to be able to do is be heard by furies, and you can control the furylamps. Similarly, Isana could use the lesser furies around the steadholt to help suppress Tavi. Wouldn't even have to be only water furies.
~11 days after NRS(based on pg 375) Amara and the rescue team arrive in Kalarethat attack happened before the rescue, Kalarus was bringing home Brencis after miles nearly killed him.
~12 day after NRS, Rescue Team Escapes with the Hostages, Kalarus is knocked out of the Sky, Gaius is Informed of the Hostages safety.(pg 389-390)
~ 20 days after NRS Kalarus is in Ceres with Brencis torching Orphanges.(pg 225)
Er, no, you don't get my point. What I was saying is this: do the books -say- outright that Tavi's birthdate (the one Isana gave him) is the same time as the First Calderon? Let's say FC happened 15 years ago. If Isana wanted to hide his age, she could say he's older than that, or younger. He looks 'young for his age' so older than that is possible. It would all depend on whether or not his birthdate is flagged as the time of FC ICly or not.
Though oddly, looking at the book (to get information to comment further on), Tavi insists that First Calderon happened far before he was born--it's in the section with the Princeps' Monument.
Bernard and Isana have no secrets. Bernard knows who Tavi is. That's pretty much stated in FoC. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but there is a part when Isana is talking to Bernard and says something like "It's happening!" or something like that. And Isana also asks Amara if "she had come for Tavi?". He would know exactly how old Tavi really is and he probably even knows about Isana's "tampering".
But you are right, it doesn't exactly add up by a year. Maybe it's just a slip, although Jim doesn't slip on the details.
I had a thought. What if Isana water crafted the brands on Fade's face?
She might have had her hands full with taking care of Tavi, escaping the Marat, and water crafted Fade? That would be exhausting especially for a water crafter. Can you imagine the emotions coming from a baby? It would be almost constant, except when the baby is asleep. And of course, we have the actions Isana was taking to suppress Tavi's furies. That had to add to the burden.
15 BFC: Tavi is born (FC p. 28) at the end of First Calderon. (confirmed in CF)
-Kitai is born. (FC p. ?? - revealed during Challenge of Wit)
-Alia dies. (CF Chapter 5)
-Tavi bonds with Kitai of the Marat. (FC p. 307-308)
-Second Battle of Calderon.
-Tavi receives patronage to the Academy from the First Lord. (FC p. 433)
I looked a the monument section and the next section with Amara, Tavi & Bernard walking to Bernardholt and found a time check - "The Marat had returned to the Calderon Valley, something that had not happened in nearly seventeen years." near the beginning of chapter 15.
Maybe a few women held the throne? Maybe a few of them went by other names. If they're like the roman emperors who had half a dozen names more than usual...for example:
Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, aka Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, aka Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus...
or Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (caligula, which was a nickname from when he was a kid)
or Tiberius Claudius Nero Caesar Augustus.
Of course, they are only known by one name, now....
Of course, there could have been First Citizens without the Gaius name. The numbering of the Gaius's could have been an affectation started by Sextus as a political ploy and only been in real effect for the last 3 generations.FoC, AF and CuF began with quotes from Gaius Primus, Gaius Secundus and Gaius Quartus respectively.
FoC, AF and CuF began with quotes from Gaius Primus, Gaius Secundus and Gaius Quartus respectively.
edited to correct spelling
| Date in Our Time | Date Relative to Furies of Calderon | Events |
| 9 AD | 1,995 Years before | Roman 17th, 18th and 19th Legions plus Germanic opponents sent to Carna |
| 10 AD | 1,994 Years before | Apia Founded on Carna |
| C. 500 AD | ~1,500 Years before | Fury Crafting Discovered |
| C. 1,000 AD | ~1,000 Years before | House of Gauis becomes First Lords of Alera |
| C. 1,150 AD | ~850 Years before | Senatorum founded & Gray Tower built |
| C. 1,500 AD | ~500 Years before | Children of the Sun destroyed in Feverthorn Jungle |
| 1989 AD | 16 Years before | Gauis Septimus Wounded at the Battle of the Seven Hills Gauis Septimus marries Isana |
| 1989 AD | 15 Years before | First Battle ofCalderon Gauis Septimus Killed by Kalurus Brencis Majoris, High Lord Rhodes & Lady Invidia + others, Gauis Octavian Born |
| 1999 AD | 10 Years Before | Gauis Sextus marries Attica Caria |
| 2004 AD | 1 Day Before | Amara ex Cursori and Fidelias ex Cursori begin final training exercise for Amara ex Cursori |
Welll....given various hints....it has to be within a certain 9 month period.
Yeah, but wasn't there talk in another thread about how someone must have lied about Tavi's age yada yada yada? Ignore me, I don't know what I'm talking about.
So far we have seen 6 Gauis' referenced
Gauis Primus (Preface Writing Foc)
Gauis Secondus (Preface Writing, AF, Possibly more than One)
Gauis Quartus (Preface Writing CuF)
Gauis Sextus
Gauis Septimus
Gauis Octavian
We've also seen a Tertius, whose policies stopped inflation and allowed the beginning of the silkbat industry. He isn't explictly a Gaius, but considering he's setting fiscal policy for Alera, he probably is. (AF Ch.34) And we've seen a Gaius Pentius, who kept a secret passage from his study to his mistress Lady Annalisa's bedchamber. (AF 52) My personal pet theory is that this was Gaius Sextus' father, and that's why he's so obsessive about not taking a mistress/shaming Caria, despite everything. But that's a pet theory.
These books take place around the time of Christ?
I am making an assumption that FoC takes place at the same time as our own time.
That means that FoC takes place in 2004 AD (or CE)
Date in Our Time Date Relative to Furies of Calderon Events 9 AD 1,995 Years before Roman 17th, 18th and 19th Legions plus Germanic opponents sent to Carna 10 AD 1,994 Years before Apia Founded on Carna C. 500 AD ~1,500 Years before Fury Crafting Discovered C. 1,000 AD ~1,000 Years before House of Gauis becomes First Lords of Alera C. 1,150 AD ~850 Years before Senatorum founded & Gray Tower built C. 1,500 AD ~500 Years before Children of the Sun destroyed in Feverthorn Jungle 1989 AD 16 Years before Gauis Septimus Wounded at the Battle of the Seven Hills
Gauis Septimus marries Isana1989 AD 15 Years before First Battle ofCalderon
Gauis Septimus Killed by Kalurus Brencis Majoris, High Lord Rhodes & Lady Invidia + others,
Gauis Octavian Born1999 AD 10 Years Before Gauis Sextus marries Attica Caria 2004 AD 1 Day Before Amara ex Cursori and Fidelias ex Cursori begin final training exercise for Amara ex Cursori
I would like to flush this out more so posts and I will update as more info comes in I am stopping at the start of Furies of Calderon as we know what happens from there on out
Thaks Priscilla for the correction (but what are the odds that it was exactly between us)
I also tend to think that the Legions were more probably from between 300-400 AD. Why? They have stirrups.
Also, you can't be sure that one year on Carna equals one year on Earth. Suns, solar systems, planets, planetary orbits all have different sizes which would effect the definition of a local year. I know we don't have year numbers in the books, but you can't really use our years.
i couldn't find on page 40 of FC where it says that isana could not have children i looked it up after seeing the timeline ....i dont think thats right
Why do you say they correspond with Terran years? In a land where every human has enough water furies to use the fury-bound water faucets, the years could be longer and the humans age slower.
All we know is that they are Aleran years. I do recall that Butcher stated that they are "contemporary" but in fiction, there's always a +/- factor.
Why do you say they correspond with Terran years? In a land where every human has enough water furies to use the fury-bound water faucets, the years could be longer and the humans age slower.
All we know is that they are Aleran years. I do recall that Butcher stated that they are "contemporary" but in fiction, there's always a +/- factor.
No, Tavi did not age at a regular rate. His mother stunted his growth through her furies.
Yes he aged just as anyone else did. His growth was stunted. Not his age.
:)
Now that we are at the end of this series i hope to crap that tavi pulls some kick ass fury asswhippins. I think we can assume that by the cover. All of the other covers dipict(sp?) a certain scene that happens real close to the cover art. I wonder what that woman was at the end of book 5 she told tavi that his grandfather called her alera. Ehern saw her when they were in ceres when he walked to the top of the wall and stopped at the top o the stairs and overheard Gauis. Is she a great fury?? is that how they pass there fury to the next in the fam? or some kind of bond with a great fury?Answers to this and more can be found in the sample chapters currently available on the Main site, though I warn you they will only lead to more questions :)
if tavi manifests a fury could kitai use it like he could??
<exasperated sigh> How do you judge age? In the young we judge it through growth. As we get older, by signs of ageing. Do you see where I'm going with this?Just because the accuracy cannot be confirmed doesnt mean it cant be fun to try. Especially when talking on a board whose primary function is wild speculation. Its what we dooo :D
For all we know, Carna could have shorter years and with fatality rates and the effects of water crafting... well, all I'm saying is that it may be roughly contemporary, but trying to use our years/dates as a timeline is not worth the effort.
<exasperated sigh> How do you judge age? In the young we judge it through growth. As we get older, by signs of ageing. Do you see where I'm going with this?
For all we know, Carna could have shorter years and with fatality rates and the effects of water crafting... well, all I'm saying is that it may be roughly contemporary, but trying to use our years/dates as a timeline is not worth the effort.
His birth date was "X". Today is "Y". "Age" is a measure of TIME from "X" to "Y". Nothing that his mother did to spike his bathwater changes either "X" or "Y". Thus "Age" is not stunted. His development was stunted, yes. Growth and development may be (in some ways) interchangable. Growth and age are not.
You might find the use of time as inaccurate to judge a person's "age". I do not.
The solar day (or sol) on Mars is only slightly longer than an Earth day: 24 hours, 39 minutes, and 35.244 seconds. A Martian year is equal to 1.8809 Earth years, or 1 year, 320 days, and 18.2 hours.
And we know nothing about Carna, but I will point out that probability tells us that it is extremely unlikely that Carna will have exactly the same orbit around its sun as our planet does ours.
Look, a larger world with the same rotational speed will have more "time" in a day. Even if they can divide it all evenly into 24 hours of 60 mins of 50 seconds each, those seconds would be longer. Then again, they could be shorter.
Some can go for the orbit of the planet around its sun. Years can be longer or shorter.
The variables you suggest are more variable than you want to comprehend. The measurement of time is subjective.
18 years of Terran time is measured by 18 rotations around Sol. Which is not the same as 18 years of Martian time, which holds a different orbit:
A one year old Martian would be different from a one year old Terran... And we know nothing about Carna, but I will point out that probability tells us that it is extremely unlikely that Carna will have exactly the same orbit around its sun as our planet does ours.
Come up with your proof, or any rational justification to ignore probability, because until you do, you have nothing.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to read more interesting things; your passionate attempts to argue things that can't be argued have begun to bore me.
What I'm arguing is that you have no rationally justifiable basis upon which to assume that they are the same, and that as such, your "theories" are specious at best and, at worst, a complete waste of my time to read.
The onus is on you to give us a reason why we should accept anything you conjecture. The fact is that probability tells us that it is unlikely that any two planets will hold exactly the same orbit. I don't need any proof that they are different when common sense tells me that they are unlikely to be sufficiently similar for you to base your timeline on.
Come up with your proof, or any rational justification to ignore probability, because until you do, you have nothing.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to read more interesting things; your passionate attempts to argue things that can't be argued have begun to bore me.
What I'm arguing is that you have no rationally justifiable basis upon which to assume that they are the same, and that as such, your "theories" are specious at best and, at worst, a complete waste of my time to read.
The onus is on you to give us a reason why we should accept anything you conjecture. The fact is that probability tells us that it is unlikely that any two planets will hold exactly the same orbit. I don't need any proof that they are different when common sense tells me that they are unlikely to be sufficiently similar for you to base your timeline on.
Come up with your proof, or any rational justification to ignore probability, because until you do, you have nothing.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to read more interesting things; your passionate attempts to argue things that can't be argued have begun to bore me.
The roman year on Earth wasn't a full orbit, and didn't necessarily correspond to the seasons in any way, shape or form.Umm, i disagree on both counts. Because in every calender in every culture ever, the cycle of a year was one full turning of the seasons. everything else is just various ways to chop it up, and most of the confusion and inaccuracies come from trying to combine the year and the seasons (solar events) which are needed for any extended historical reckoning, with the lunar months that are more useful in daily life.
Why should the Aleran year magically be an orbit either?
Sorry, but the onus of proof is upon you; Occam's Razor supports the Earth-and-Carna similarity idea, as explained by my previous post about the narrow range of factors required for human habitation. Science tells you that they are VERY likely to be sufficiently similar for all of us to base a timeline on. Now please drop the attitude and join a reasonable discussion.
It's fine to have a working hypothesis without evidence to support it, but you have to have some evidence to dispute valid criticisms. I've pointed out that there is nothing in the books to justify the belief that years will measure the same, that the laws of probability inform us that this is exceedingly unlikely.
I've explained it well enough, the logic behind my criticism is sound. If you have no actual evidence to refute it with, then you have to accept that the hypothesis is flawed or come up with proof.
At this point, it's clear neither of you is going to convince the other. I declare this length of an Aleran year discussion over.
I am not beholden to your trifling mortal logic. What your feeble brains fail to grasp of my divine plan is your failing, not my own. Be grateful to have glimpsed the goddess in her divine arbitration, and question not her motives!
The Goddess is down with that!
Mmmmm, crepes.
Veselka also does awesome blintzes, but I'm a crepes girl. And a cupcake girl. And a pie girl. Mmmmm, food. And I'm going to stop this off-topic chatter in this thread and direct it here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11566.420.html) instead. :D
Well here is an accuall question on the timeline, and maybe someone can help me with the answer,At the time of the Epilogue, it had only been 6 months since "Third Calderon"
in the epilogue of FLF(click to show/hide)
Well here is an accuall question on the timeline, and maybe someone can help me with the answer,
in the epilogue of FLF(click to show/hide)
Quote from Epilogue(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
As I said Sheck, I Guess that because of how we say things is different it could also be because of my confusion
Im looking through the epiogue and Im not seeing this refernce to Last Year you guys are talking about, where is it? I see several references to how it was six months agoor later(click to show/hide)The only reference to "last year" is "Last year we were marching with legions saving the Realm" which has been true since CF.(click to show/hide)
are we talking about last year or a year ago?The time of the FLF epilogue
and does anyone know what a normal Marat pregnancy is?6 Months iirc
Is it nine moons, does that refer to Earth moons or Aleran moons?As per the long and drawn out conversation a few pages ago, we are going to assume that the Aleran time measurements line up to earth ones, Unless and until we get some reason to think otherwise.
although we do know that an Aleran year is roughly an Earth year
And yes I am drunk.
I am making an assumption that FoC takes place at the same time as our own time.
That means that FoC takes place in 2004 AD (or CE)
Date in Our Time Date Relative to Furies of Calderon Events 9 AD 1,995 Years before Roman 17th, 18th and 19th Legions plus Germanic opponents sent to Carna 10 AD 1,994 Years before Apia Founded on Carna C. 500 AD ~1,500 Years before Fury Crafting Discovered C. 1,000 AD ~1,000 Years before House of Gauis becomes First Lords of Alera C. 1,150 AD ~850 Years before Senatorum founded & Gray Tower built C. 1,500 AD ~500 Years before Children of the Sun destroyed in Feverthorn Jungle 1989 AD 16 Years before Gauis Septimus Wounded at the Battle of the Seven Hills
Gauis Septimus marries Isana1989 AD 15 Years before First Battle ofCalderon
Gauis Septimus Killed by Kalurus Brencis Majoris, High Lord Rhodes & Lady Invidia + others,
Gauis Octavian Born1999 AD 10 Years Before Gauis Sextus marries Attica Caria 2004 AD 1 Day Before Amara ex Cursori and Fidelias ex Cursori begin final training exercise for Amara ex Cursori
I would like to flush this out more so posts and I will update as more info comes in I am stopping at the start of Furies of Calderon as we know what happens from there on out
Thaks Priscilla for the correction (but what are the odds that it was exactly between us)
I thought Tavi was 15 in FoC? (Note, it's been awhile since I've read that one, as I don't own FoC or AF)
"Roman 17th, 18th and 19th Legions plus Germanic opponents sent to Carna"Probably from the fact that CA is based on Lost Roman Legion (and Pokemon), and...yeah.
Umm whered you find this info?
Probably from the fact that CA is based on Lost Roman Legion (and Pokemon), and...yeah.I thought it was only one legion that ended up in Carna?
I thought it was only one legion that ended up in Carna?
is there somewhere I can find a finished version of the timeline plese help
I was browsing through my old books and reading a few parts of this series again, but I was wondering, there used to be some backstory on this forum about how the legion got to alera, something about greek doctors and literacy and I think something about the other races that the alerans wiped out, but I can't find any of it, did anyone save it?The Idea of how they got there was that Carna was a dumping ground for phenomena like the burmuda triangle from planets all over, that stranded various races in this one little backwater melting pot. The exception being the Vord, that crashed in a spaceship (the Wax Forrest was in the landing crater). Some of the races were mentioned in FLF
It was kind of interesting and I thought it made a neat footnote to the series.