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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Tami Seven on November 24, 2014, 01:36:11 PM
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Did we ever find out the name of Deirdre's Fallen? Her angel in the coin? If not, I'd like someone to ask JB about it if they get ever the chance.
I do have a suggestion for a name, "Urumiel" taken from the name of this sword, the Urumi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urumi), which resembled her hair:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5-9pSyTiM_U/Rt1PplweqLI/AAAAAAAAA-E/KOv6auPRN4E/s400/urumi.jpg)
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Did we ever find out the name of Deirdre's Fallen? Her angel in the coin? If not, I'd like someone to ask JB about it if they get ever the chance.
I do have a suggestion for a name, "Urumiel" taken from the name of this sword, the Urumi, which resembled her hair:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5-9pSyTiM_U/Rt1PplweqLI/AAAAAAAAA-E/KOv6auPRN4E/s400/urumi.jpg)
That would be a cool name. More important, who is Nick going to either hand off the coin to or trick into taking it up?
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More important, who is Nick going to either hand off the coin to or trick into taking it up?
Considering his 'emotional attachment' to it, I would be surprised if he passed it off at all, or at least not so quickly. Once passed off, there is a good chance it would eventually wind up in the church or buried under some Wizard's sub-basement.
There are 30 coins, plenty for Nick to choose from.
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Considering his 'emotional attachment' to it, I would be surprised if he passed it off at all, or at least not so quickly. Once passed off, there is a good chance it would eventually wind up in the church or buried under some Wizard's sub-basement.
There are 30 coins, plenty for Nick to choose from.
But Nick *doesn't* have the others to choose from for elevating new henchmen. Tessa and Rosanna made off with the bag containing most of the loose ones at the end of Small Favour, so Nic had to resort to retrieving Ursiel and Lasciel to rebuild his cadre from Death Masks. Unless he went to extraordinary lengths to rescue them in the few minutes the escape from Hades took, those two coins are lost to him again for the long term. Even if Saluriel (Cassius' Fallen) and most of the others in Church custody get busted out soon, Nic is a pariah with a price on his head - rolling with Tessa and Imariel for the next few decades is going to look a lot better to most of them.
Deirdre's Fallen might be the only one willing to take Nic's calls at this point.
I really do want to see some silver buried under a wizard's creepy prison-fortress island at some point, though.
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But Nick *doesn't* have the others to choose from for elevating new henchmen. Tessa and Rosanna made off with the bag containing most of the loose ones at the end of Small Favour, so Nic had to resort to retrieving Ursiel and Lasciel to rebuild his cadre from Death Masks. Unless he went to extraordinary lengths to rescue them in the few minutes the escape from Hades took, those two coins are lost to him again for the long term. Even if Saluriel (Cassius' Fallen) and most of the others in Church custody get busted out soon, Nic is a pariah with a price on his head - rolling with Tessa and Imariel for the next few decades is going to look a lot better to most of them.
Deirdre's Fallen might be the only one willing to take Nic's calls at this point.
I really do want to see some silver buried under a wizard's creepy prison-fortress island at some point, though.
I hadn't considered this before. You know the events of the end of Skin Game quickly spread amongst the fallen. They (Nic and Anduriel) must have lost some serious credibility.
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Did we ever find out the name of Deirdre's Fallen? Her angel in the coin? If not, I'd like someone to ask JB about it if they get ever the chance.
I do have a suggestion for a name, "Urumiel" taken from the name of this sword, the Urumi, which resembled her hair:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5-9pSyTiM_U/Rt1PplweqLI/AAAAAAAAA-E/KOv6auPRN4E/s400/urumi.jpg)
Going back to SmF, there's a Denariian called "Urumviel" (yes, I know there's an extra "v" in there) that's described as having lots of muscle and a ridge of leathery plates going down its spine.
We've got nothing on the name of Dierdre's denariian, from SmF or elsewhere, though, so Urumiel is as good as any other.
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Or it could go down one of two ways..
Nick has the Holy Grail now, what he said he wanted, but not whathe wanted. If Michael is right, that object if it is a weapon, isn't a conventional one. It might backfire and Nick will give that coin up, plus his own.. He might even wield the Sword of Love in the end, because in spite of everything he did still love his daughter. Yeah, I know, unlikely, but had to put it down...
Or more likely;
Nick is isolated, he has been brought down and is at rock bottom.. He wants revenge...He knows now about the love between Harry and Murphy. He lost his love, he knows tricking Harry into picking up a coin doesn't work.. So for the sheer revenge factor, he finds a way to trick Murphy into it.. She's been hurt, she made a couple of poor decisions regarding the Swords, she may never be as effective [because of injuries] physically as she once was.
All of the above, even if her and Harry get together, make her vulnerable to Nick possibly tricking her into picking up the coin. Revenge not just on Harry, but on her as well.
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I have this theory that the new kid has alot of info about denarians, their symbols, their names, their sigils, and lots more. I wonder if it might even know spells to summon the coins in some circumstances, especially considering harry has access to soul fire. If properly contained or protected, then the coin would be impossible to summon, but say nic is acting sentimental and simply carries the coin with him, it might be possible to track or even summon it to him. Nic could be forced to bargin for it, also, i am betting any resurrection spells for his daughter, include the coin being present.
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I have this theory that the new kid has alot of info about denarians, their symbols, their names, their sigils, and lots more. I wonder if it might even know spells to summon the coins in some circumstances, especially considering harry has access to soul fire. If properly contained or protected, then the coin would be impossible to summon, but say nic is acting sentimental and simply carries the coin with him, it might be possible to track or even summon it to him. Nic could be forced to bargin for it, also, i am betting any resurrection spells for his daughter, include the coin being present.
Except Deidre doesn't have a get out of Hades free card, and never will. Remember what Hades said? So while she may be safe from Heaven's justice, she will still pay for her crimes and I doubt that there is any bargain Nick can make to get her back.
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Last time you claimed that Murphy is already Denarian, now you say that she might pick up the coin... progress.
Your other theory-just no. Nick feelings towards Deidre have nothing to do with Love that was praised by St. Paul. He broke her, bended to his will abd used as a tool. He may even claim that he had best intentions.and be truly sorry after they were separated. But you know who.behaves exactly the same? Domestic abusers. Stalkers. Rapists. Shall we forgive them, because they are sad?
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What is the scenario even for Murphy picking up the coin? Nick doingthe same ploy he used on Harry? (i.e. Tossing the coin in front of Maggie with only Murph to see and pick it up.)
I like the suggestion of Deidre's Fallen's name. I doubt there will be a new host for her. Perhaps Nick will have two Fallen Angels whispering in his ear.
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Last time you claimed that Murphy is already Denarian, now you say that she might pick up the coin... progress.
Your other theory-just no. Nick feelings towards Deidre have nothing to do with Love that was praised by St. Paul. He broke her, bended to his will abd used as a tool. He may even claim that he had best intentions.and be truly sorry after they were separated. But you know who.behaves exactly the same? Domestic abusers. Stalkers. Rapists. Shall we forgive them, because they are sad?
Revenge, my dear, revenge.. Nick has lost the one person he has ever loved, he is at a all time low, he has got to get somebody. So go after the one or ones that Harry loves the most, that would be, Murphy, Maggie, Eb and Thomas.. Don't know of coins can change genders, so I think Thomas and Eb are safe. I can see him going afer little Maggie, but he has to get past Mouse.. Can Foo Dogs take up a coin? That leaves Murphy, I think she is vulnerable...
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Don't know of coins can change genders, so I think Thomas and Eb are safe.
... Huh? Lasciel is identified as female and we spend five books watching her try to get Harry to partner with her.
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... Huh? Lasciel is identified as female and we spend five books watching her try to get Harry to partner with her.
I suspect Harry, if he took up the coin, would've looked quite similar to Thomas if he did...
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I suspect Harry, if he took up the coin, would've looked quite similar to Thomas if he did...
Harry should be used to fighting in the buff anyway. ;)
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I think Nicodemus will thank Harry the next time they meet. Sort of the way Bianca told Harry he was the inspiration for her gaining power. Nic will probably tell Harry that he rediscovered how to rely on his own skills and how having an entourage of followers was convenient, but ultimately held him back. Nic enjoys getting under Harry's skin. Letting Harry know that he (Nicodemus) hasn't been beaten, that he still in the game, will get under Harry's skin by both pissing Harry off and scare him at the same time.
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I suspect Harry, if he took up the coin, would've looked quite similar to Thomas if he did...
Harry should be used to fighting in the buff anyway. ;)
Murphy would describe him as a stork in a purple mist loincloth.
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I'd picture him wearing purple archmage robes with mist billowing out of him. Just because Hannah fell on the seduction side of Lasciel's talents doesn't mean Harry's Lasciel-form wouldn't represent her arcane knowledge.
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I think Nicodemus will thank Harry the next time they meet. Sort of the way Bianca told Harry he was the inspiration for her gaining power. Nic will probably tell Harry that he rediscovered how to rely on his own skills and how having an entourage of followers was convenient, but ultimately held him back. Nic enjoys getting under Harry's skin. Letting Harry know that he (Nicodemus) hasn't been beaten, that he still in the game, will get under Harry's skin by both pissing Harry off and scare him at the same time.
..and then Harry'd take the damn noose away and snap his neck like a dry twig. I don't doubt for a second that now that he knows what Anduriel can do, he won't prepare for him. Harry is willing to kill. Taking Nic out once and for all would simply be practical.
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..and then Harry'd take the damn noose away and snap his neck like a dry twig. I don't doubt for a second that now that he knows what Anduriel can do, he won't prepare for him. Harry is willing to kill. Taking Nic out once and for all would simply be practical.
That's the problem. Doing that could put the remaining Sword in his care, plus the other relics in danger since he is their caretaker. So it isn't as simple as that I don't think.
... Huh? Lasciel is identified as female and we spend five books watching her try to get Harry to partner with her.
Lasciel was distinctly female... We don't know the gender of Deidre's Fallen one.
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That's the problem. Doing that could put the remaining Sword in his care, plus the other relics in danger since he is their caretaker. So it isn't as simple as that I don't think.
The sword is only in danger if you use it improperly. He's done lots of violence while their caretaker before and they were just fine. He didn't have to become a pacifist to be their caretaker.
Don't know of coins can change genders, so I think Thomas and Eb are safe.
... Huh? Lasciel is identified as female and we spend five books watching her try to get Harry to partner with her.
Lasciel was distinctly female... We don't know the gender of Deidre's Fallen one.
Mira, Foxed is pointing out that Lasciel, a distinctly female Fallen, has been trying to recruit Harry, a distinctly male wizard, for literally years, so there is no question about gender being an issue. It obviously is not.
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Mira, Foxed is pointing out that Lasciel, a distinctly female Fallen, has been trying to recruit Harry, a distinctly male wizard, for literally years, so there is no question about gender being an issue. It obviously is not.
I understand that, however would Lasciel have continued to try to seduce Harry if she was a "he?" That was my point.. So gender may matter, then again it may not.
The sword is only in danger if you use it improperly. He's done lots of violence while their caretaker before and they were just fine. He didn't have to become a pacifist to be their caretaker.
Violence, yes, but violence isn't the issue.. It is about forgiveness. If Harry killed Nick like Murphy was trying to do when he was begging for mercy, I understand not misusing the Sword per-say, but he'd still be violating the whole reason for the Swords to begin with. Implying that he may hand it off to someone who would misuse it.. Just that alone might unmake it before it was even given away.
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The one point to consider is that you can't use the Nic we've seen so far to predict how he will act in the future.
Consider that Nic now is in a much different place. His secret of how the noose can be used against him is out. Anduriel's power has been revealed, and with it, a way to counter one of Nic's biggest advantages. Nic's following has never seen him take it on the chin like that in their lives. Setbacks, yes, but not to that degree. Nic's standing among the supernatural set has taken a huge hit. He no longer has a favor he can call in from Mab. His two biggest Denarian supporters are either dead (Deirdre) or now bitterly opposed to him (Tessa). He has trespassed into the Vault of Hades and could conceivably be on Hades' list of People To Do Bad Things To.
Old Nic had his secrets intact, his followers (mortal and Denarian), his Marker with Mab, and his reputation. New Nic has none of that. He's going to be different now. How he is different, remains to be seen. He could become reckless, fearful, overly cautious, etc. It'll be interesting to see if/how Jim decides to shape Nic going forward.
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I understand that, however would Lasciel have continued to try to seduce Harry if she was a "he?" That was my point.. So gender may matter, then again it may not.
Pshaw. Everyone knows only women are able to seduce, and it only works on men.
</BIG MASSIVE SARCASM>
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The baby SOI also will help to kick nic when he was down. for centuries, nic acted to destroy knowledge about his order. I am betting the kid inhereted alot from her mother, and her father has soul fire, the warden of demonreach, came into this world a star born and is the winter knight, who helps the knights of the cross. He could be the very worst person to have this information, it was bad enough that he knew the noose was his weakness, now he potentially knows a vast array of similar details, and he has locations where nic can not see into.
Harry could get the info on to the internet so the whole world could know the truth about the order, once on the internet, it would be near impossible to remove. It seemed to me that soulfire magic are very effective on denarians, want to bet there are alsorts of spell or rituals know to the angels, that need soul fire. Names are important, so are sigils to angels, harry possibly has all of them. Look at what harry did with knowledge about nics shadow powers and places where it did not work.
What would nic do if harry got deidre's coin and put it in the well, possible any denarian coin? It seems like it is the one prison capable of holding denarians. WHile i hope the whole order gets sealed away, it seems likely that some will, just enough tomake the denarians a lesser threat. The named denairan are the biggest threat as those with out are seemingly just minions.
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Harry could get the info on to the internet so the whole world could know the truth about the order, once on the internet, it would be near impossible to remove.
I rather like this part. Sort of similar the WCV getting Stoker to write about the BCV's and all but eradicating them... with a modern twist to it.
And who's to say that Nic's repeated attempts to eradicate knowledge about him has been all that successful? Sure, he's slowed the Church down a time or two, but that's not the only knowledge repository Harry (and others) may have at their disposal...
There is The Archive, after all...
:)
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I'm sure the archive already knows plenty, she just can't/doesn't say much.
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..and then Harry'd take the damn noose away and snap his neck like a dry twig. I don't doubt for a second that now that he knows what Anduriel can do, he won't prepare for him. Harry is willing to kill. Taking Nic out once and for all would simply be practical.
Frankly, he had a good shot in the vault and he missed it by using the wrong spell. When Nic was busy fighting Michael and Harry tagged him by surprise with the ice cannonball that broke a couple ribs, he could have done something a lot better - iced him from the neck down like he did to the tongueless goons who disrespected Mab, and set Michael up to take his head off.
I get why it was necessary for Nicodemus to escape for literary reasons, but it's a bit jarring for Harry to jump so sharply between monologing about Hannah's problem being she wasn't prepared enough to be creative with her magic and then missing an easy victory option himself.
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Frankly, he had a good shot in the vault and he missed it by using the wrong spell. When Nic was busy fighting Michael and Harry tagged him by surprise with the ice cannonball that broke a couple ribs, he could have done something a lot better - iced him from the neck down like he did to the tongueless goons who disrespected Mab, and set Michael up to take his head off.
I get why it was necessary for Nicodemus to escape for literary reasons, but it's a bit jarring for Harry to jump so sharply between monologing about Hannah's problem being she wasn't prepared enough to be creative with her magic and then missing an easy victory option himself.
The one problem here is that once Nic was helpless, Michael would have started talking to him again, trying to save him. Harry would have had to do the ice spear trick then run over and grab the noose. Or the frigidus-forzare combo and then picked up the noose from the Nic chunks.
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Harry could get the info on to the internet
Are you forgetting that computers in Harry's vicinity, as a rule, go kaboom? Blue Screen of Death? Who'd believe a bunch of assertions without proof, apart from conspiracy-theorists like Butters's crazy friend Gary?
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Quote from: kazimmoinuddin on December 04, 2014, 09:40:34 PM
Harry could get the info on to the internet
Are you forgetting that computers in Harry's vicinity, as a rule, go kaboom? Blue Screen of Death? Who'd believe a bunch of assertions without proof, apart from conspiracy-theorists like Butters's crazy friend Gary?
A) Harry doesn't know a single person with access to a computer and the ability to use one? He couldn't write the appropriate information down and then have, say, Murphy take a jaunt down to the local library and create a Yahoo page to post the info on? or wikipedia?
B) The conspiracy theorist place would be the absolute BEST thing! The more often it gets repeated/blogged/reposted would spread it more...and really, the Church is the only entity that would really require it...so simply have an edict from the Pope saying "Every catholic church must keep this file on their server"...literally millions of copies for the KotC
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A) Harry doesn't know a single person with access to a computer and the ability to use one? He couldn't write the appropriate information down and then have, say, Murphy take a jaunt down to the local library and create a Yahoo page to post the info on? or wikipedia?
B) The conspiracy theorist place would be the absolute BEST thing! The more often it gets repeated/blogged/reposted would spread it more...and really, the Church is the only entity that would really require it...so simply have an edict from the Pope saying "Every catholic church must keep this file on their server"...literally millions of copies for the KotC
or just get an article published in the Enquirer, "Judas Coin Caused Black Plague", and explain the deal about the fallen angels that are so evil that only objects tainted by the vilest act of treachery would be corrupted enough to hold them.
Every religious conspiracy nut that sees signs of the coming apocalypse in everything will talk about them until everyone they know wants to kill them.
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My question is why Harry's spell hurt Nic so badly. We've seen him heal from gunshots to the chest quickly, but Harry's fastball to the ribs slowed him down dramatically. Why didn't the noose protect him from the harm caused by Harry's snowball?
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My question is why Harry's spell hurt Nic so badly. We've seen him heal from gunshots to the chest quickly, but Harry's fastball to the ribs slowed him down dramatically. Why didn't the noose protect him from the harm caused by Harry's snowball?
At that point, things were happening pretty fast. He might have been healing but there just hadn't been enough time for it to be enough to matter.
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Consider that Nic now is in a much different place. His secret of how the noose can be used against him is out. Anduriel's power has been revealed, and with it, a way to counter one of Nic's biggest advantages. Nic's following has never seen him take it on the chin like that in their lives. Setbacks, yes, but not to that degree. Nic's standing among the supernatural set has taken a huge hit. He no longer has a favor he can call in from Mab. His two biggest Denarian supporters are either dead (Deirdre) or now bitterly opposed to him (Tessa). He has trespassed into the Vault of Hades and could conceivably be on Hades' list of People To Do Bad Things To.
Old Nic had his secrets intact, his followers (mortal and Denarian), his Marker with Mab, and his reputation. New Nic has none of that. He's going to be different now. How he is different, remains to be seen. He could become reckless, fearful, overly cautious, etc. It'll be interesting to see if/how Jim decides to shape Nic going forward.
I am not seeing Nic as seriously weakened. Yes he will go quiet for a bit to heal his wounds and compensate for his losses, but he is still a nasty threat
* Nic lost Dedrie, his trusted and very powerful lieutenant. That hurts in a big way
* Nic's reputation is trashed, which will make it harder for him to recruit mercenaries or temporary allies. But let's put that in perspective. All Denarians have a horid reputation as backstabbers and liars. They are freaking fallen angels. The fact that he burned some allies will make it harder/more expensive get future allies/mercenaries, but there are clearly enough bad creautres in the world that his pool of available assistance is still pretty deep.
Nic sitll has a lot of sources of power
1) obviously sitll very wealthy
2) still has the vast pool of information that Andurial collects for him
3) still has all the powers and knowledge of the captain of the Fallen
4) still has his reputation as the most deadly Fallen of them all
5) still has the Noose. And while Harry could tell everybody about that weakness, he has not to date told anybody. Even if Harry tells the world about this weakness, it is only a small weakness. Conditions have to be just right to make it work and Nic is deadly in melee combat.
6) still has at least one coin to hand out, and perhaps several more.
7) still can rally the rest of the fallen to his banner for a big operation such as occured in Small Favor.
8 ) still has the Holy Grail, an artifact of such great power that it makes the swords seem weak.
9) still Nic, one of the two most dangeorus beings Harry has ever faced. the other is, of course, Marcone who has no powers at all.
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The one problem here is that once Nic was helpless, Michael would have started talking to him again, trying to save him. Harry would have had to do the ice spear trick then run over and grab the noose. Or the frigidus-forzare combo and then picked up the noose from the Nic chunks.
I think Michael was committed to ending him by that point. He's smart enough to realize that ice wouldn't hold Nic forever once Anduriel set his attention to freeing him.
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THere are only 3 truly experience denarian hosts left, the rest of the order would have to be filled out by newbies, and both of the others are on a different fraction from nic. SAy this number was lowered, perhaps, completly, then the order would be at a severe disadvantage.
Harry knows about the shadow spy capabilities, so any truly secret plans will be made in michaels house or on the island.
one coin is currently missing, while 2 are last seen in the underworld.
Nic potentially has all the contained coin free.
Harry has access to the well, one of the few places that could be capable of containing denarians. Even if they cant be secured permanently, i am bettin that it would hold them the longest possible time, centuries perhaps millenium..
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My question is why Harry's spell hurt Nic so badly. We've seen him heal from gunshots to the chest quickly, but Harry's fastball to the ribs slowed him down dramatically. Why didn't the noose protect him from the harm caused by Harry's snowball?
Because it was a huge amount of energy? It didn't so much hurt him, but it hit him with a ton of force, that the noose does nothing about. Bullets don't actually have that much total energy, it's just concentrated. The noose does nothing to stop the laws of physics from applying to Nic.
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I think Michael was committed to ending him by that point. He's smart enough to realize that ice wouldn't hold Nic forever once Anduriel set his attention to freeing him.
Except killing a helpless opponent whom he's supposed to be trying to save would be passing judgement, and we all know what that does to holy swords.
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Except killing a helpless opponent whom he's supposed to be trying to save would be passing judgement, and we all know what that does to holy swords.
No, killing a helpless opponent who has proven himself beyond redemption is the best time to do it. No judgement required. Especially if you can believe what Nic said about it being up in the air if Murphy had just murdered him instead of saying "Damn you."
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I hadn't considered this before. You know the events of the end of Skin Game quickly spread amongst the fallen. They (Nic and Anduriel) must have lost some serious credibility.
Do you think that the Fallen care that Nick broke his word to Dresden and Mab? Not if he got the Grail as a result.
It is the OTHER supernatural entities which probably have the most problem. But honestly, this was one of the least credible parts of the story. It is not particularly believable that Nick did not betray his word many times in the past. And a lot of his 'peers' are not monks trying to keep records. They are long lived and Immortal beings! They just remember. So if Nick had ever done something like this, he was already toast credibility wise.
Or they ask the Archive perhaps what had been written about his before. Cause she remembers EVERYTHING. (Another reason to take her out)
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The one point to consider is that you can't use the Nic we've seen so far to predict how he will act in the future.
Consider that Nic now is in a much different place. His secret of how the noose can be used against him is out. Anduriel's power has been revealed, and with it, a way to counter one of Nic's biggest advantages. Nic's following has never seen him take it on the chin like that in their lives. Setbacks, yes, but not to that degree. Nic's standing among the supernatural set has taken a huge hit. He no longer has a favor he can call in from Mab. His two biggest Denarian supporters are either dead (Deirdre) or now bitterly opposed to him (Tessa). He has trespassed into the Vault of Hades and could conceivably be on Hades' list of People To Do Bad Things To.
Old Nic had his secrets intact, his followers (mortal and Denarian), his Marker with Mab, and his reputation. New Nic has none of that. He's going to be different now. How he is different, remains to be seen. He could become reckless, fearful, overly cautious, etc. It'll be interesting to see if/how Jim decides to shape Nic going forward.
These are good points. I thought when Nick torqued off the Archive he was toast, particularly when you consider that his minions needed to write things down constantly to 'chat'.
I doubt any intelligent person interacting with him would think Nick had a 'reputation'. He was a Fallen.
I am not sure that Tessa is fully against her husband. After all, she stood next to him after Deidre died at Michael's house. Plus they aren't necessarily totally in the driver's seat. The Fallen have a say in Nic and Tessa's choices.
BUT...Nick now has the Grail. That has to mean something. That he wanted MORE was never in doubt. What he got was bad enough.
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Nic has a plan, a scheme of some kind. This time it's not something 'stupid' like start a plague. This time he's serious bout it and will probably be very patient in implementing it, even if he has to do all the work himself.
We may not see him fro some tie, but I bet by the time of the BAT, we will see him again and he will be in the thick of it.
One thing he may set his sights on, is trying to retrieve all of the relics from Harry. How he might go about it, I have no idea, but after everything he did, everything he sacrificed, he's not going to just give up on them.
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Nic and the fallen are known liars and cheats, Shiro mentions that they cheated in accords sanctioned duels, the idea that the immortal world will suddenly not trust him doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
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From what I remember, Shiro never mentioned that those duels he had explicitly with Denarians involved were ever Accord-sanctioned. Even if they were, how would that work? I was under the impression that both combatants had to be members for that to happen, and the Knights were never part of the Accords.
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My understanding about Nic is not that he deliberately broke his word, so much as that he was very careful to leave loopholes he could exploit. I could be wrong though.
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As an oath breaker to the accords, this allow mab and other to act against him correct. Summer and winter working together to really mess the denarains up. Usually, they need a connection to interfere, but the accords will suffice. If no longer accord members, then those that are can act with out consequences towards them.
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The thing to remember about the Accords is there is the Letter of the Law only...there is no Spirit of the Law in the Accords, which is why exact words are so importiant to the supernatural. Mab doesn't care what you do, as long as you follow the letter of the law in the Accords.
You break the LETTER of the law, and Mab puts you on her list of 'People to do Bad Things To'. In Small Favor Nic and Co didn't just 'violate the rules of a duel' he frigging KIDNAPPED the Neutral Party requested to supervise the conflict and resolve it! Then subjected said party to untold horrors and tortures. Yeah, Nic didn't just kick a little sand in Mab's eye with that stunt, he pretty much hurled a huge ball of mud at her and dared her to come after him.
So Mab took her sweet time to line up her revenge, she knows that Nicklehead corrupted by Nemesis invaded her Stronghold, with the help of her corrupted DAUGHTER, as far as she cares Nic could be part of the 'Team Nemesis' and even if she's not. Per the LETTER of the Accords he's the head of the Order ergo any crimes commited by the Corrupted Nickleheads are his crimes as well. So she's got that beef with him as well.
Nic got very well bloodied in Skin Game, he lost allot of his previous advantages. Mab most likely has sent word to the other Accords members that if Nic wasn't on the poison list before he is now! But as others have said...he's alive and still has some resources and the grail so he'll be back.
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The thing to remember about the Accords is there is the Letter of the Law only...there is no Spirit of the Law in the Accords, which is why exact words are so importiant to the supernatural. Mab doesn't care what you do, as long as you follow the letter of the law in the Accords.
You break the LETTER of the law, and Mab puts you on her list of 'People to do Bad Things To'. In Small Favor Nic and Co didn't just 'violate the rules of a duel' he frigging KIDNAPPED the Neutral Party requested to supervise the conflict and resolve it! Then subjected said party to untold horrors and tortures. Yeah, Nic didn't just kick a little sand in Mab's eye with that stunt, he pretty much hurled a huge ball of mud at her and dared her to come after him.
So Mab took her sweet time to line up her revenge, she knows that Nicklehead corrupted by Nemesis invaded her Stronghold, with the help of her corrupted DAUGHTER, as far as she cares Nic could be part of the 'Team Nemesis' and even if she's not. Per the LETTER of the Accords he's the head of the Order ergo any crimes commited by the Corrupted Nickleheads are his crimes as well. So she's got that beef with him as well.
Nic got very well bloodied in Skin Game, he lost allot of his previous advantages. Mab most likely has sent word to the other Accords members that if Nic wasn't on the poison list before he is now! But as others have said...he's alive and still has some resources and the grail so he'll be back.
If he broke the Accords in Small Favor, why didn't he already lose his reputation? And IIRC, Nic said that he would treat fairly with Dresden UNTIL he got the Grail.
So the violation was more Small Favor and not this. Or am I misreading it?
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I'm thinking that Small Favor was less of a violation because Accord members are expected to be capable of taking care of themselves. If you don't have the muscle to back up your claim as an Accord member, then you're screwed, period.
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I'm thinking that Small Favor was less of a violation because Accord members are expected to be capable of taking care of themselves. If you don't have the muscle to back up your claim as an Accord member, then you're screwed, period.
This isn't throwing an elbow at a fellow boxer. This is trying to shoot the referee.
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This isn't throwing an elbow at a fellow boxer. This is trying to shoot the referee.
And what I'm saying is that Mab doesn't care if you shoot the ref. She's MAB, for crying out loud, her idea of rehab is attempting to assassinate Harry once a day. If the ref doesn't have the strength to take the bullet and give back as good as he got he has no business being a signatory.
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And what I'm saying is that Mab doesn't care if you shoot the ref. She's MAB, for crying out loud, her idea of rehab is attempting to assassinate Harry once a day. If the ref doesn't have the strength to take the bullet and give back as good as he got he has no business being a signatory.
If the ref is supposed to be off limits in the letter of the Law, how is it NOT a issue with Mab? JB has been quite clear on that front.
Edited to add: I am not sure that the ref is off limits. But then again, you can't be sure of that either, most likely.
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I'm thinking that Small Favor was less of a violation because Accord members are expected to be capable of taking care of themselves. If you don't have the muscle to back up your claim as an Accord member, then you're screwed, period.
No, it was indeed a violation of the Accords. Not because one signatory attacked another (marcone), but because one signatory attacked a neutral third party acting as arbiter on behalf of the Accords themselves (Ivy). And Mab did say outright that he violated the accords, so there's not much question.
I think the issue was that she already owed Nic this specific prior personal debt, which she was obligated to reconcile before she could then step in and deliver the punitive action she wanted to on behalf of the Accords. Otherwise she'd have maneuvered herself into the same trap Harry brought up to Eldest Gruff, by taking direct action that made it impossible for the Fae to repay a debt. Obligation trumps everything including Pride, in Fae world
Edit: And fwiw Ive completely lost track of whatever you folks were trying to convey with the boxing metaphor...
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I'm thinking that Small Favor was less of a violation because Accord members are expected to be capable of taking care of themselves. If you don't have the muscle to back up your claim as an Accord member, then you're screwed, period.
That was an Accord violation. That's was Mab's revenge. I think it's more that she broke his power base, and made him break his word at the same time, meaning that although he was a cheat before, he is not as influential as he was before.
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Okay, I'd forgotten that Mab said that explicitly. Point conceded.
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Okay, I'd forgotten that Mab said that explicitly. Point conceded.
That is very gracious.
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And note while Nic was 'in' on the plan to snatch up Ivy he never did anything DIRECT to either the capture of Marcone or Ivy, he let Tessa and her faction do that. He even said as much to Harry more or less implying that this was all Tessa's idea and he was just along for the ride.
The worst Mab could do post the events of Small Favor was declare The Nickleheads no longer Members of the Accords and thusly no longer allowed or entitled to invoke it's rules or it's protections when dealing with other Members, she couldn't take more direct action against him till he cashed in his marker.
Its a good theory that Nic would have never cashed in that chip if he didn't 'suddenly' get the information fed to him about the Vault and how to get past the gates. Mab played things to insure that the prize was too tempting and in Nic's PoV worth the risk of losing what protection he had from Mab's wrath for a change to get a hold of the grail.
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Because it was a huge amount of energy? It didn't so much hurt him, but it hit him with a ton of force, that the noose does nothing about. Bullets don't actually have that much total energy, it's just concentrated. The noose does nothing to stop the laws of physics from applying to Nic.
Because he added some soulfire.
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And note while Nic was 'in' on the plan to snatch up Ivy he never did anything DIRECT to either the capture of Marcone or Ivy, he let Tessa and her faction do that. He even said as much to Harry more or less implying that this was all Tessa's idea and he was just along for the ride.
Technically by having Nico kill Deirdre would be retribution towards Tessa as well.
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And note while Nic was 'in' on the plan to snatch up Ivy he never did anything DIRECT to either the capture of Marcone or Ivy, he let Tessa and her faction do that. He even said as much to Harry more or less implying that this was all Tessa's idea and he was just along for the ride.
The worst Mab could do post the events of Small Favor was declare The Nickleheads no longer Members of the Accords and thusly no longer allowed or entitled to invoke it's rules or it's protections when dealing with other Members, she couldn't take more direct action against him till he cashed in his marker.
He didnt keep himself legally clear of the whole affair, far from it. He just let Tessa and her faction handle the torture of the archive so that she'd target them first if she ever got loose. From Mab's Point of View he laid a trap using her Accords as a weapon (which only she's allowed to do), prompting her to cash in one of Harry's Favors, and eventually get more personal revenge.
Also, it's worth noting that we have no idea how exactly the nickleheads have membership. They werent openly listed that Harry could remember, and it's entirely possible that they simply have a member that's an independent, rather than being full members as a group/nation.
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Okay, I'd forgotten that Mab said that explicitly. Point conceded.
Didn't mean to hit you twice, but I got Ninja'd before I could post.
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Alas! I am wounded.
No worries, mate.
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Wasn't really worried. I just personally find it a bit overwhelming at times when there are multiple posts in a row pointing out the same thing to me.
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I wonder if now as an official breaker of the accords, does than mean they are an enemy of both winter and summer? so harry could draw upon fairy back up to deal with them in the future.
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I wonder if now as an official breaker of the accords, does than mean they are an enemy of both winter and summer? so harry could draw upon fairy back up to deal with them in the future.
I started a new thread to deal with that very issue.