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The Dresden Files => DF TV Series => Topic started by: Mickey Finn on August 27, 2007, 02:49:09 PM

Title: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Mickey Finn on August 27, 2007, 02:49:09 PM
Poll for people's feelings on the show itself.

A ground rule: respect other viewers' opinions, and respect Robert and his team for the work that they did. If you didn't like the show, don't tear into them. They actually WORKED, folks, while we're just armchair quarterbacking.

(don't read anything into the order of the poll questions. They got scrambled for some reason)

People can change thier vote at any time, but may only vote once.

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Sűlien on August 29, 2007, 04:03:15 PM
I really enjoyed the series.  It had some problems at the beginning, but they were mostly worked out by the last 4 episodes and I wish it could have continued for several more seasons.  Yes, it was different from the books, as most screen adaptations are, and that wasn't a problem for me, because I looked at the TV series as a sort of alternate universe fanfiction.  Taken on its own, "The Dresden Files" was turning into an excellent show and it's a pity Skiffy didn't give it a real chance with a complete, 20 episode season, because it would have been a real winner for them as it progressed through the rest of the first season.  I would be willing to bet some serious money that the series would have picked up a big enough following to make it worth their while and then some if they had decided to continue with it through a complete first season and subsequent seasons as well.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: charmeddigitalchick on August 29, 2007, 04:58:04 PM
You know, it's days like this that I wish I had a ton of money laying around so that I could help shows like The Dresden Files continue into a long running series.  I would have loved to donate it to the producers to keep it going.   

It's seems incredibly unfair that Stargate SG-1 ran for so long and yet Dresden was axed so abruptly without giving anyone a chance to fully enjoy it.  Even Dead Zone is still running even though they had to move to a different network later on (they found a way to keep going which is fantastic). 

Heck, I never even saw the show until way after Christmas, it should have been on the air in September like all of the other shows that premiere at that time. 

The Dresden Files was by far one of the best series on television and it deserved to have had a chance to gain a much stronger fan base like Bones.  We really should have been blessed with 20 episodes rather than a measly 12, it didn't give us a chance to get become intimately familiar with it.

I'm keeping my fingers (and my toes) crossed for possible feature films or DVD movies of The Dresden Files.  I'm giddy as a school kid just thinking about it....   
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Cyclone Jack on September 03, 2007, 01:24:39 AM
Very few shows start out fantastic, stay fantastic, and end fantastic. Dresden was no exception.

What Dresden did do, however, was find its feet surprisingly quickly. Bythe 12th episode the cast was working like a well oiled machine, the writers were losing their hesitancy and starting to build a cohesive and fascinating world, and new characters were emerging to deepen and solidify that world.

I firmly believe that, given a full 20-22 episode season, the crew and cast of Dresden would have graced us with an edge of the seat season finale for a show we'd have been counting the days for the return. Word of mouth and critical recognition would have brought the audience it deserved. The second season would have been where the show truly bloomed.

I actually wrote a spec script, in the optimistic days just after 'Second City' aired. I hoped perhaps I could get in on the second season. It was only the second teleplay I've ever been able to finish, mostly because of how involved I felt with the show and how plain the writers made the progression. My spec script involved White Court vampires and took ideas from the books but tailored it towards the very different television world.

As I've said before, I was glad that the producers of the show opted to take the 'alternate world' path. The books are wonderful, but I've already read the books! This was a way to play in the world of Dresden with an entirely new and free set of what-ifs.

Too bad. Maybe in the future a network with more vision and flexibility will give the Dresden world the support and room it needs to truly bloom and grow.

Until then, I'll treasure these twelve episodes for what they are -- extremely entertaining television.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Tribblechomper on September 23, 2007, 08:00:34 PM
I wasn't able to get cable until the last 3 episodes aired...due to the kindness of some, I was allowed to see maybe 3 others; I'm gonna see if Netflix has the DVDs.


"Quis ego saw , ego amo"

What I saw, I liked.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: CarolM on September 23, 2007, 10:48:32 PM
I enjoyed the series, though I would have appreciated more resemblence to the books. I'm looking forward to finding the time to watch the DVD and catch up on the episodes that I missed the first time round.
I really wish the show had been kept on for another season/series, but life sucks sometimes... :(
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Teleri on September 26, 2007, 10:16:41 PM
I've read all the books twice, own them in hard cover, love them dearly.  I had the pleasure of seeing Jim Butcher at Dragon*Con 06, where he talked about the series and how it differed from the books, so was prepared.
I loved the show for what it was.  Paul captured the heart & soul of Harry, Murphy was Murphy (you know, external appearances are NOT the most important things!), the stories were funny & interesting, and then, there was BOB!!!  How great THAT was :D  I will so miss Bob. 
However, apparently Terrence Mann has settled near my home town, so I might get to see him at Flat Rock or something....LOL
BB
Teleri
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: AttilaTheNun on September 26, 2007, 10:34:02 PM
Don't forget to buy the dvd set, Teleri!
*as Attila turns green with jealousy of Teleri*
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: gahmsw on September 27, 2007, 01:23:56 PM
Maybe in the future a network with more vision and flexibility will give the Dresden world the support and room it needs to truly bloom and grow.
8)
That would be cool.

-Steve
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Helen™ on October 01, 2007, 07:07:39 PM
As I've mentioned elsewhere, except for Terry Pratchett, I've never been a big SciFi/Fantasy fan.  My teenaged daughter was the one who made me watch The Dresden Files, and I have to say that I did enjoy it.  I'm sorry that it was cancelled.  I've signed the petition, and am going to buy a drumstick this weekend in hopes that it'll help find the show another home.  The show is very different than the books (which I absolutely love), but it's fun to watch.

Assuming that the show ends up coming back, what will happen with the guy who played Dresden?  I've read that he's got another show on a different station.  Will he come back, or would they have to get someone else?
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Zarina on October 02, 2007, 01:44:55 AM
As I've mentioned elsewhere, except for Terry Pratchett, I've never been a big SciFi/Fantasy fan.  My teenaged daughter was the one who made me watch The Dresden Files, and I have to say that I did enjoy it.  I'm sorry that it was cancelled.  I've signed the petition, and am going to buy a drumstick this weekend in hopes that it'll help find the show another home.  The show is very different than the books (which I absolutely love), but it's fun to watch.

Assuming that the show ends up coming back, what will happen with the guy who played Dresden?  I've read that he's got another show on a different station.  Will he come back, or would they have to get someone else?
Paul Blackthorne has a recurring role in Big Shots, but he stated in a recent interview that he 'absolutely' would come back to play Harry. All we have to do is get it back on the air!
Thanks for the signature AND for helping the drumstick campaign!! :)
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Helen™ on October 02, 2007, 09:14:25 PM
Thanks for the info.  I'm glad he'd continue with the role.  I think he fits it perfectly, and it doesn't hurt that he's incredibly sexy.  Even my kid thinks so, and she's young enough to think that the idea of a man in his 30's as attractive is "creepy".
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: AttilaTheNun on October 02, 2007, 11:02:01 PM
Thanks for the info.  I'm glad he'd continue with the role.  I think he fits it perfectly, and it doesn't hurt that he's incredibly sexy.  Even my kid thinks so, and she's young enough to think that the idea of a man in his 30's as attractive is "creepy".

*giggles* and what does she think of Bob? I know of at least 3 teenagers among those  gaga over TV-Bob .....
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Zarina on October 03, 2007, 03:02:22 AM
Thanks for the info.  I'm glad he'd continue with the role.  I think he fits it perfectly, and it doesn't hurt that he's incredibly sexy.  Even my kid thinks so, and she's young enough to think that the idea of a man in his 30's as attractive is "creepy".
Isn't he JUST!!!   ;D
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Riggler on October 15, 2007, 06:53:19 PM
I didn't care for the Sci_fi series. It was too different from the books and I've read or heard all the various reasons why.

Here's wishing there will be a big screen adaptation or someone like HBO takes on a true adaptation.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Finsup on October 16, 2007, 05:32:01 PM
I didn't care for the Sci_fi series. It was too different from the books and I've read or heard all the various reasons why.

Here's wishing there will be a big screen adaptation or someone like HBO takes on a true adaptation.

That's a great idea! (the HBO thing) I'd even settle for a Showtime series.

I liked the show, of course the books are better, but my wife watched the show and got into it, she's not a big sci-fi fantasy fan.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Blaze on October 16, 2007, 06:36:44 PM
I bought the dvds.  My husband watches them on Sundays.  It eases his pain. 
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: ranlynn on October 16, 2007, 07:55:08 PM
In all honesty TDF the TV series was not a *great* show but it was good & had the promise of getting better if it had been allowed to continue.

Part of the problem, besides the current business model of cancelling shows almost as soon as they begin if they don't have 'blockbuster' ratings straight away is that doing a genre show like the TDF files is limited budgets (especially in the first year).

The books are heavy with spells & magical creatures but if you don't have a theatrical level budget TV FX tend to look cheesy, which will kill a show with today's audiences that are used to seeing Matrix & Star Wars level FX.

So they have to try rely on plots & characters to get the 'feel' of the books & save the FX for *big* moments.

TDF the series was starting to find that balance by the end of it's initial (& sadly limited) run of episodes.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: rinascita on October 20, 2007, 08:19:49 PM
I only started reading The Dresden Files books in the last couple of months.
I've never seen the series.
Have been looking for it, but I guess I missed my chance.
As far as books - into - movies go...the book is always better...imagination makes it so.

Thanks, Jim for the books...wonderful entertainment.  I am so envious of the ease you seem to have in writing them. Hope for many more.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Intempesta Nox on October 21, 2007, 08:22:54 PM
Hi rinascita - Welcome to the Forum!  The tv series is available at places like Bestbuy and Virgin Megastore.  I've also had friends find it on Amazon, and I'm sure others are selling it on ebay.  It's also for sale (individual episodes, or the whole season) on Itunes.  One doesn't have to have an Ipod to download one of the shows, and watch it on their Mac, PC or laptop.

Also, the series will reair starting mid November.  Check posts here noted for Reruns.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Mickey Finn on October 22, 2007, 12:58:32 AM
I've recently seen a chunk of the original pilot.

Sometime in the near future, I will be posting a review, but Robert & Hans' original take on Dresden was far closer to the books in tone and character than the series was. Geometrically closer. Even supermodel Murphy was more convincing.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Blaze on October 22, 2007, 01:09:30 AM
*sigh*
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: fracz on October 23, 2007, 01:48:48 AM
Love the books.  Loved the show.   Have now had to switch allegiances to vampires on Fridays nights.  I miss Harry & Bob the most.  (tear falls)
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: [beatle mania] on October 25, 2007, 01:00:37 AM
The show had a weak, weak start, but a few episodes in---
It was brain candy. XD
Not on the level of Doctor Who or Firefly brain candy, but brain candy nonetheless.
Everyone grew on me and I WISH I could have seen what else they'd pull out for a second season. D:

I'm totally buying it---when I'm no longer a broke panda.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on October 25, 2007, 06:58:44 AM

I loved the show. It started to have life of it's own. I would have loved to have seen the show's incarnation of Thomas.  It's too bad that never came about, or the full revelation about Bob's back story.

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Norzemen on October 25, 2007, 06:46:39 PM
TDF Was the first show I remembered to take time to watch since, um..Deadwood. (I missed Firefly and just bought the DVD)

It was a very high quality entertaining show. I could tell the level of effort and detail in the show was high. It was worth my time to check it out. There is nothing on TV other than the occasional Nova or Front line series that Ill will spend my time watching these days. It was exciting to come home and watch a new series. I fully expected that the show would continue into Season two. But it didn't and Ive gone back to not watching TV.

I bought the DVD last night and for the first time ever listened to the comments while the show was running. It was interesting listening to the process from the directors and writers and actors perspective. Ill keep an eye out for any quality shows like this one. I would love to see someone try and put Robert Jordens stuff to film someday.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: hkjakkie on October 25, 2007, 09:03:29 PM
How about > Loved the show. One of the best series I have ever seen.
I have said this before but as soon as I saw "..based on Jim Butcher..." ran to the book store....screamed in frustration that the books had been out for several years and I have missed....have the DVD, the books.....I am planning on having Buthcher budget....I now live in the Dresden Files/Codex uninverse
(part TV series and part books)...I am totally addicted(which is good)..which is why even though I do not know how to post I am writing now...so everyone involved again...I wish untold  fame and fortune....

Jackie
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Mickey Finn on October 26, 2007, 02:36:25 AM
I find it telling that no one, event he people who didn't like the show, has voted for being glad it was replaced with Flash Gordon.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: rinascita on November 10, 2007, 07:52:07 PM
Hi rinascita - Welcome to the Forum!  The tv series is available ...

Thanks Intempesta Nox :)
I'll probrably d/l the series from iTunes as soon as I have a few more dollars to spare. (I tend to spend my extra $ on books.)

My next book pruchase will most likely be the other series... Codex Alera.
Then I'll be hooked on yet another!  Fun though, and reading keeps me out of trouble!  If I didn't stay home and read I'd probrably go to bars, have wild sexual escapades, and end up with an STD....

Cheers to Jim Butcher, protector of women's chastity everywhere!


(geesh....sounds like I do need to get out a little  more often)   LMAO btw ( don't take me too seriously please...except about the protector of chastity and such  ;D
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Blaze on November 10, 2007, 10:25:48 PM
Oh, Mickey, I can't even imagine how people can bear to watch the new iteration of Flash Gordon.  It is so totally wrong.

(Opinionated, yes, but I am a long time Flash fan, and even have compilations of the comics.)
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: torgeaux on November 30, 2007, 03:20:36 PM
I didn't like the show, I found no "improvements" where it varied from the books, and frequently found the variations not just puzzling, but counterproductive in the extreme.

However, I am sad to see it ended, if for no other reason than I like the books, like Mr. Butcher's work as a rule and hate to see this link to more readers gone. 
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: MonaLS on December 04, 2007, 05:59:56 AM
What little of it I saw I liked, but I don't think I ever saw more than three or so episodes. Wish I could have seen more, and wish it could have continued. The books are fantastic.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Mickey Finn on December 04, 2007, 02:10:50 PM
"I found no "improvements" where it varied from the books"

I found one. While I like Bob from the books, I LOVE Hrothbert of Bainbridge.

Other than that, I pretty much agree.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on December 05, 2007, 09:21:01 AM
I found one. While I like Bob from the books, I LOVE Hrothbert of Bainbridge.


I feel the same way.  But anyone who has seen me rant and rave about Terrence Mann knows this.

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: rummy556 on December 07, 2007, 03:39:51 AM
You know, it's days like this that I wish I had a ton of money laying around so that I could help shows like The Dresden Files continue into a long running series.  I would have loved to donate it to the producers to keep it going.   

It's seems incredibly unfair that Stargate SG-1 ran for so long and yet Dresden was axed so abruptly without giving anyone a chance to fully enjoy it.  Even Dead Zone is still running even though they had to move to a different network later on (they found a way to keep going which is fantastic). 

Heck, I never even saw the show until way after Christmas, it should have been on the air in September like all of the other shows that premiere at that time. 

The Dresden Files was by far one of the best series on television and it deserved to have had a chance to gain a much stronger fan base like Bones.  We really should have been blessed with 20 episodes rather than a measly 12, it didn't give us a chance to get become intimately familiar with it.

I'm keeping my fingers (and my toes) crossed for possible feature films or DVD movies of The Dresden Files.  I'm giddy as a school kid just thinking about it....
< Excellent post . i agree.


Edited to fix formatting.  --Priscellie
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Aluroon on December 27, 2007, 04:26:51 AM
I'll be honest, when I started watching the show I was a hardcore book fan and was appalled by the changes. I was one of the people wishing the show would just die so that maybe, just maybe it could get rebooted at the real Dresden Files. I found myself asking how ti could be called the Dresden files when almost nothing seemed the same (including the Hockey Stick and Drum Stick). Eventually however it started to grow on me as the show got more settled into what it was, developed its own world, and so forth. By the end of Second City I was begging for more. Sadly there won't be anymore. :'(

Oh well, thanks for the 12 episodes, I'll hang them on my shelf of great shows that never got a chance next to Firefly.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: MonaLS on December 27, 2007, 05:30:48 AM
Well so far I've watched 10 episodes in the last 2 days, pretty cool!
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: KoshN on January 20, 2008, 03:08:09 AM
GREAT show. Loved it. AND it turned me onto the books.  :)
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Magus_Jasonius on January 22, 2008, 07:12:51 AM
I liked the show. There were many aspects of it I liked or preferred, such as the office and the apartment being the same building, the hockey stick, etc.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Lord of the Helm on January 27, 2008, 10:39:45 AM
In general, I enjoyed it. I saw the show before I read the books, so I didn't have the problem of having to compare them, and in retrospect, it differs significantly enough from it that I can dissassociate the two from one another without a problem. I really liked the actors, and the dialogue was excellent. I LOVED TV Bob, an excellent rendition of the character. I didn't mind the hockey stick, and I still picture Harry's blasting rod as a drumstick whenever I read the books (though, granted, it was more like a sonic screwdriver in the series  :P ).

That said, there's a few things that I didn't think were that well-handled. I was mostly irritated that Harry just didn't seem to use enough magic - he seemed more like a paranormal private eye who casts the occasional spell now and then than an actual wizard. That, and I found the friendly neighborhood vampires and infecting-bite anthropomorphic werewolves a bit generic even before having read the books. Oh, and I couldn't help but think "What ever happened to that Susan", who came out of nowhere in Storm Front and was nowhere to be seen after.

All in all, an enjoyable series, and it got me into the books, which are the most enjoyable and engaging ones I've read in years.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Terrormaster on January 28, 2008, 07:11:31 PM
The TV series wasn't too bad for the most part. I had seen about 3 or so episodes before it got cancelled. The DVD was on my Christmas wishlist but I ended up buying it myself this year from Amazon (I try not to buy too many DVDs from BestBuy since they closed all our local Suncoast stores and it was the ONLY place that caried it local retail).

In the interim it had gotten me interested in the books which I haven' been able to put down since I started reading them this year.

After buying the DVD I made the mistake of going back and watching the two episodes that were based more directly on the books (Hair of the Dog and Storm Front) which I had missed when they aired. The rest of the series wasn't bad at all and I liked even the alternate universe thing. But those two episodes should not have been made.

I really didn't mind that their was stuff different from the books and that worked for me because there wasn't any adaptations of the stories from the books. But those two killed that for me. I'm actually having trouble getting myself motivated to watch the 3rd disc with the last 4 episodes.

That aside I still imagine Paul Blackthorne as Dresden and hear Terrance Mann snarky voice in my head whenever I read Bob's passages.

Considering Jim's anime influence I would LOVE to one day see a faithful anime adaptation of the books - especially in a Cowboy Bebop or Trinity Blood style seriousness with just the right amount of anime humor.

-TM
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: purenightshade on April 01, 2008, 07:59:06 PM
I quite enjoyed the series. I generally enjoy things that Robert Hewitt Wolfe has worked on. I do one day plan on reading the books and buying the DVDs, but where I live this isn't an easy thing to do. It was hard enough to find episode downloads of the show. Those have earned themselves a permanent place on my hard drive until I have the DVDs.
I admit, I'm having a really hard time getting myself to watch the last episode. It's showing on TV tomorrow night on Space and I'm just dreading it. I know it'll be good, but I can't bear to watch the end knowing that it's the end.

*sad*
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Freylin on May 02, 2008, 03:41:45 PM
My wife and I are huge Dresden fans, have read all the books and can't wait for what comes next after Small Favor.  So, with this in mind we decided to rent Season 1 of the tv series.  Extremely disappointing.  I suppose if you had never read the books it might be okay, but after having read the entire series twice, we have definite mental pictures of all the characters and locations, Harry's mannerisms, his home, Bob, etc. 

The series fell way short of matching anything.  We will not be renting anymore of the series needless to say.  About the only thing we really enjoyed about it was picking it apart and pointing out the glaring inaccuracies.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Amoracchius on May 04, 2008, 04:09:48 PM
So about 8 percent of the people in this poll found the television series to be somewhat lacking. Not a surprise when you consider that most of us here are longtime fans of the books. The bottom line for me was that even though it was different from the books, it was better than 90 percent ( and I'm being generous ) of the shows on the Sci Fi channel. Wish it had a chance on one of the regular broadcast channels because I still believe it would have garnered all of the former Buffy fandom plus lots of other non-fannish folks who enjoy a good detective story and would find the magical aspects novel and entertaining.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: hkjakkie on May 04, 2008, 09:23:52 PM
Add Monk fans and Psych fans. I saw the ad on T.V when I was watching Monk.
I grew up reading science fiction and mysteries. Add comedy and I usually will watch it
at least once. Then there is Reaper and Chuck.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: twinswin123 on May 04, 2008, 11:59:54 PM
So wait...What replaced the TV series?
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: thelordbeans on May 08, 2008, 12:32:53 AM
I've seen all of the episodes (except the original pilot) and I didn't like it. It wasn't bad, but I don't think it did the books justice by any stretch. The dialog seemed uninspired - Harry, the perennial wiseass, said only one funny thing the entire season (I think it had something to do with Mayans, I don't remember). Also, I could never shake off the feeling that Paul Blockthorne was a creepy stalker instead of a hero with good intentions that just looks like a creepy stalker at times. The individual episode plots weren't exactly captivating. They didn't describe how magic works, like Butcher does in the novels, or at least not much, and I remember them getting some things wrong about magic. Bob was horrible - I don't care if Bob is a talking skull or a person that lives in a skull and pops out genie style, but TV Bob and book Bob are completely different people.
It needed work... I don't know where, if it's just bad writing, or also bad actors, or not enough effort put into it, or not enough money... maybe Butcher should have written some of the scripts, or maybe helped direct a little (like Frank Miller in Sin City), but I wouldn't be surprised if he has his hands full with writing his great novels.
Maybe a mini TV series would be better (a few episodes all about Storm Front) or a full fledged movie, if that was possible. Otherwise... don't continue the TV show, unless it gets some type of revision.
edit: also, it might be better than the other stuff they show on Sci-Fi channel (I don't watch much Sci-Fi channel, if any), but it's not a show I'd watch if I wasn't a Dresden Files fan

edit2: I admit, I really liked the hockey stick
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Spyndel on May 08, 2008, 01:17:05 AM
I actually watched the show  (or a few episodes of it, if it was on) before I read any of the books.  I found it sort of lackluster and a bit uninspired.  I agree with some of the others here that I thought the dialog could be much better.  You can live with practically any show budget as long as the scripts are entertaining.  It wasn't awful.  It was better than most Sci Fi channel fare, but that's damning with faint praise.   I had no problem with the cast.  I liked the "grubby PI" look Blackthorne had.  I found the woman who played Murphy strangely "hot", but as we all know now...that's not Murphy.  I even thought the hockey stick Staff was a clever idea.  I understand Bob needing to be a person, though he  of course, wasn't *BoB*.

 But even from a from a (then) non book fan perspective, I wanted livelier dialog and more over-arcing storylines.  The "monster of the week" theme is seldom very interesting to me.  That worked for Xfiles because they split the episodes up between really entertaining monster of the week shows, and powerfully addictive mythology shows.   The latter aspect seemed really underdeveloped in TV Dresden. I understand that this is often what Studio and network executives dont want, because they fear people dont want to watch something they cant just jump right into.  All I can say is when I DO watch television shows, its almost always because of compelling story arcs.


And its a shame, because it almost put me off reading the books, which I since have and have come to really enjoy.  Looking back on the show now after having read the books, it seems even less appealing.  After some time has passed, I would really enjoy seeing a new effort to bring Harry to the small screen, maybe as number of mini series, much more in line with the tone and storylines of the books.


This is not to put down any of the people involved.  I know putting together a television show that really fires on all cylinders is a difficult task, and things can go wrong in the mix for any number of reasons, with so many fingers in the pie. 
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Tribblechomper on May 08, 2008, 12:25:55 PM
So wait...What replaced the TV series?


Repeats of BSG and Doctor Who, until new eps became available; oh, and the occasional SciFi Originals Beastie of the Week movie!

Can you believe Kevin Sorbo's so pinched for a paycheck that he'd do that "Aztec Rex" movie airing this weekend?

Guess the residuals from Hercules and Andromeda are drying up...
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: thelordbeans on May 15, 2008, 10:33:58 PM
An addendum: I do think the show had potential, and deserves a second shot. And it's better than Charmed
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: FlaggerX on June 04, 2008, 10:23:52 PM
Question: Does SciFi own the rights to the Dresden Files?

I mean why should the show be stuck there?   Surely there are other venues, and frankly some shows have survived because of good DVD sales.

Why not look elsewhere?

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Benchleyfan on June 18, 2008, 05:42:50 AM
Overall, I thought the show had potential.  My main problem with Bob wasn't so much that they turned him into a ghost, but it seemed like the actor was channeling Tim Curry most of the time.  Not necessarily a bad thing, but it made me wish Tim Curry was playing Bob.  sigh.  I'm sorry that there won't be a season two.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on June 30, 2008, 10:21:05 PM
Overall, I thought the show had potential.  My main problem with Bob wasn't so much that they turned him into a ghost, but it seemed like the actor was channeling Tim Curry most of the time.  Not necessarily a bad thing, but it made me wish Tim Curry was playing Bob.  sigh.  I'm sorry that there won't be a season two.

That was Terrence Mann playing Bob.  If you're a fan of Broadway theatre you probably know the name.  He's the original Javert on Broadway's Les Miserables, in Cats he was Rum Tum Tugger, in Disney's Beauty and the Beast on Broadway he was Beast / The Prince, in Scarlet Pimpernel he was Chauvelin and the list goes on...  He's on all those plays original cast recordings too.  He has an incredible voice for singing. It's strange that they never exploited it for the show. 

What he did with Bob was the sort of character he tends to lean toward.  In fact there was an old poll years ago where people thought he and Tim Curry had been separated at birth.  When they were younger they actually looked identical.  Of course today Tim Curry dyes his hair and put on some weight, drifting toward TV guest spots while Terrence Mann went silver and for the most part stuck to theatre.

Tim Curry and Terrence Mann know each other, by the way.   Terrence Mann is the younger of the two by about seven years.   In fact in 2001 Terrence Mann took on the Broadway role of Dr. Frank N. Futter for The Rocky Horror Show (I was there for one performance) while Tim Curry was in town doing A Christmas Carol as Scrooge (which I went to twice).  There's a picture of them together from that year.

(http://www.sebastianbach.com/archives/timcurrybazmann.jpg)

That's Sebastian Bach as Riff Raff, Tim Curry as himself, and Terrence Mann as Dr. Frank N. Futter.   

The funny thing is they criss-crossed that year.  From what I've read, Terrence Mann had been Scrooge over five years earlier and Tim Curry was taking over the role and Tim Curry had been the original Dr. Frank N. Futter and Terrence Mann was taking over the role.

I love Terrence Mann's work.   It's such a shame they didn't do more.  I completely agree with Micky that Hrothbert of Bainbridge (Bob) was probably the best change they made from the books to the show.  I adored him.   The one thing that bothers me most about the show ending is we didn't get to see more done with the show's version of Bob.

Maybe someone should ask Robert Wolfe to team up with Terry and do a spin off. :P   I wish Scifi would consider a mini series or made for TV movie to tie up all the unfulfilled issues of the show.

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: OrangeWolf on April 23, 2009, 07:25:44 PM
Hey there all,

I guess it's been a bit since anyone replied to this particular thread, but as I only stumbled upon the TV show recently I figured I'd pop in after the fact to leave a comment or two.

First of all, I want to say that I appreciate the effort that went into the show.  It was a genuine attempt to make a kickass series of books into a TV show.  Personally I couldn't get into it as much as I could the books, but I know that it did turn a lot of people onto the Books and I know that a lot of people loved it, so it clearly did something right.  I won't say it wasn't good, because for what it was it wasn't bad at all.

I love the books.  I guess the way I would explain it would be to say that in the books, Dresden is a Wizard who makes a living as a Private Investigator (well, of some sort, even if some of his duties fall under other venues).  In the show, Dresden strikes me as more a Private Investigator with the knowledge and capacity to use magic.  It's a sort of subtle difference I suppose, but I can't think how else to phrase that.  Just had a sort of different "feel."  Murphy also didn't strike me as the same Murphy from the books, but then her attitudes changed from Storm Front to Turncoat, so it could just be me being stupid because it's been a while since I read Storm Front.  The more minor things, such as the Jeep vs Beetle, Hockey Stick vs Staff, Bob being more than a talking skull, etc. don't bother me.  In fact, I thought what the show did with Bob was bloody brilliant.  In the books things worked as they were, but it seemed like in the TV show we needed someone to talk to Harry so we can see what he's doing/thinking without making him talk to himself.  Bob fills that role beautifully, and he's damned cool.

I did enjoy the TV show more as it went on than I did at the start.  I'll agree with the first poster on this thread who said that he felt like things were starting to really hit their stride before it was cancelled though, definately had a lot of potential.  Again, it's not that I felt the show was bad, just that it wasn't something I would have watched past the first few episodes if I wasn't such a huge fan of the books.  That was the selling point for me, but hey, it worked.  Pity there isn't more to watch -- For some reason it's Bob that I'm the most sad to lose.

Then again, I am pretty sure I watch less TV than most of America's population, so I'm pretty picky about what I dub worth the time to watch.  Before checking out the Dresden Files last week, I think it had been about 2 months since I turned the TV on to watch anything. 

Cheers all, and thanks to everyone involved with the show for making it.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: fyrefay52 on August 15, 2009, 08:36:13 PM
Dear Everyone,
I am very sorry the series is no longer on the air.  I got to see it via YouTube, circumstances making it difficult to see the shows as they aired. I think the science fiction channel made a mistake in canceling the series.  They didn't even give it a proper chance.
For which I give them a resounding BOO.
I am comforted with the books, but I really hope that Jim and Mr. Wolfe will at least try for a miniseries or a film based on the books.  It would be wonderful. 
Thanks for listening, and have a wonderful day.
Peace,
Tina
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: desolo on September 17, 2009, 07:01:58 AM
I caught the episodes out of order online.  It was ok, but just enough off (a hokey stick for a staf, drumstick for a wand/blasting rod.. WTF?) that I had some trouble getting into it beyond watching it on the laptop while gaming.

I can though, trace an obsession, I've developed, with trying to lay hands on a vintage Jeep for my next car, directly to the show..

Really I feel that the complexity and depth of The Dresden Files really merits being done as an animated series.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: ImmortalPolka on September 17, 2009, 03:08:36 PM
I saw the show long before I read the books, and loved it.

I can understand some of the changes made given the circumstances. Using elements more "relatable" to the average viewer was, I'd guess, an attempt not to scare away viewers who might look down on anything with too much of a D&D feel. With the success of things like the Lord of the Rings movies and the continued success of the Harry Potter franchise, it would probably be easier to try and resist compromises like that these days. "Try" being the operative word here.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: owlbeen on September 18, 2009, 06:51:37 AM
Saw the show, fell in love, then went and bought a good deal of the books. (I'm still not caught all the way up yet, but that's college for you...)

It's, hands-down, one of my favorite shows. I rewatch the DVDs often enough that even my non-obsessed roommate can quote whole stretches of dialogue. Nothing disappoints me more than that it didn't continue. I enjoyed the Rockford Files-ness of it all, the absolutely superb acting talent, and the beautiful sets. Everything about the show felt right -- maybe it wasn't all in-line with the books, but within the show, itself, it was aces.

Still, there's the huge sense of... wanting? ...that remains. A whole lot was left unsaid. I sincerely hope that the TV-verse storylines will be resolved someday.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on October 08, 2009, 09:42:33 AM

Still, there's the huge sense of... wanting? ...that remains. A whole lot was left unsaid. I sincerely hope that the TV-verse storylines will be resolved someday.

I know exactly what you mean.  Certain storylines felt unresolved and Robert Wolfe broke his promise to us long ago that if it didn't continue he would reveal those stories to us.

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: ironbent on December 02, 2009, 03:04:13 AM
Hi all...

The shows, recently rented on Netflix (don't want no t.v. in my house), got me into the books. The books are waaaay better than the shows.

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Blaze on December 02, 2009, 03:57:31 AM
Robert Wolfe broke his promise to us long ago that if it didn't continue he would reveal those stories to us.

No, he is hoping and holding out for a few follow up movies...  stand alones...  YES!  Yes, that us what he s doing!
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Jaeh on December 03, 2009, 02:01:23 AM
Lurker comments:

I enjoyed it, and once I knew it had books, I sped off to look for some. Shame it got killed.

Books are way, way better! I just borrow them though. I want my own copies, but they don't sell it in my country, last time I checked a bookstore. Maybe I should check other bookstores... (why oh why...)
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on December 03, 2009, 02:15:43 AM
Lurker comments:

I enjoyed it, and once I knew it had books, I sped off to look for some. Shame it got killed.

Books are way, way better! I just borrow them though. I want my own copies, but they don't sell it in my country, last time I checked a bookstore. Maybe I should check other bookstores... (why oh why...)

You could always buy them off the Internet.

 
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: j3nnee on December 03, 2009, 04:52:06 AM
I really enjoyed the series. I saw it before I read the books.
I ended finding the series on Hulu in August and then started Dead Beat the same month and have read all the books minus the short stories (except I have read Backup, Storm Front's graphic novel #1 and started Welcome to the Jungle.)

I wish the series had stayed on. I liked Paul as Harry and Terrence as Bob.

and if anyone wants the books used, I can usually find copies in fair to near mint condition locally at the big 2nd hand bookstore chain.
Let me know. :D That's if you can't get them online or at a bookstore locally.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Jaeh on December 03, 2009, 09:11:31 AM
You could always buy them off the Internet.

 

true that. I will... when I get the money. haha.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Carnackis Ghost on December 03, 2009, 05:09:04 PM
I really enjoyed the show.As a matter of fact,I thought it was the best thing on SyFy since Farscape.As for those who think the books are better:they usually are.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: airyie on December 14, 2009, 09:50:58 AM
The TV show was great!  I think because it was soooo different, but still good.

I loved how they did Bob, IMO he was better than in the books. =)
I think the books are better(Story wise) but the TV show had its own great flair.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Bajra79 on December 15, 2009, 02:45:59 AM
the only show on that channel i could get my wife to watch....sigh.  this far out and i was still hoping that they would resurrect it.  How long was Family Guy off the air before they brought it back?  I actually got into the books because of the show.  I loved them both.  I dug the interaction between the show bob and harry.   
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: airyie on December 15, 2009, 03:22:28 AM
Family Guy was a cartoon, so a cast wasn't a problem.
If they wanted to revive this, they'd have to find and sign on all the actors....
But who knows.  Maybe after the contract expires, someone else will pick up the rights. =)
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on December 16, 2009, 09:17:26 PM
the only show on that channel i could get my wife to watch....sigh.  this far out and i was still hoping that they would resurrect it.  How long was Family Guy off the air before they brought it back?  I actually got into the books because of the show.  I loved them both.  I dug the interaction between the show bob and harry.   

Syfy (or more likely Lionsgate since Lionsgate has the Internet distribution rights) still has the rights until 2012.  They're just being greedy by not letting anyone do anything with it and at the same time they're being stupid.  They're letting a potential money maker go to waste.

 
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: airyie on December 17, 2009, 06:26:46 PM
^well, you know what they say.  The longer you wait, the more you want it.

Besides, once the Harry Potter movies are finished, I think DF will have a much better chance of drawing in an audience.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: habman on January 18, 2010, 10:49:22 PM
I love the books so much...so I was really disappointed with the series. When you read the books you start to get a feel for what Harry would look like...his attitude....and his general comportment. You also get a feel for how Karrin Murphy would look...and her general attitude and comportment. You even get a feel for Bob...and how his skull would look and talk. Then along comes the series...and everything has changed. I recognize that things can be better fleshed out in a book....but come on! Everyone...especially Murphy...just didn't ring true.
I'm afraid that's what happens when you let TV executives get hold of a script and make changes. If I had my way....Jim Butcher would have been executive producer of the series...answering to no one....and if his idea of what the series should look like doesn't float...then so be it. But I just got the sense that someone who hadn't read the series...or didn't care...had the final word on the project....and seriously dropped the ball.
Maybe they should try an "IT"-type mini-series for one of the books...and see what they can do with that. ???
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on January 18, 2010, 11:58:10 PM
You even get a feel for Bob...and how his skull would look and talk.

I honestly don't think that would have worked on TV.  It would have gotten old really fast and no special effect would have made it palletable to non-book fans.  You either have CGI or a skull puppet and it just wouldn't translate well, I really liked the ghost.

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Compass Rose on January 24, 2010, 04:22:04 PM
I enjoy(ed) both the show AND the books. Yep, there are differences, but not really major ones, IMO. Heh. I can name a number of TV series (and movies) that should have been labeled "Inspired by" the books they were based on, as there were so many differences that if some of the characters hadn't had the same names as those in the books, a lot of people never would have realized there was a connection. Then there are others where the producers, etc. only took aspects of the books and concentrated on them when they made their films, not only completely changing the focus of the story but in most cases destroying some decent books. (The "Starship Troopers" movies come to mind, on a whole bunch of levels.) So, yeah, the TV series wasn't exactly like the books - but I expected that. And they were a lot truer to the original material than I expected.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: airyie on February 07, 2010, 04:05:41 AM
I actually like it when a series is NOT loyal to the source material, considering, it is my personal hobby to read books and then see the movies.  Hint Hint...just ordered Percy Jackson online. =)

I loved the hockey stick idea.  It actually took me a while to get use to the staff with carvings.
I loved ghost bob.  I saw the pilot, and I was not amused by the glowing non-moving thing.
I loved morgan.  He was a badass (pardon my french).
I loved murphy...She was just likable...

And I think it is great to 're-imagine' a series.  You get different stories, characters, etc.  It is something new, and interesting, and most of the time good in a way unique from the source material.


...I am bummed that I didn't get to see the Time Traveler's wife.  I read the book, but my Bio lab went overtime till 10pm, so I couldn't go to the free showing...
...And now I'm on a tangent....
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: patrick8729 on February 15, 2010, 09:46:52 AM
Hey,   Assuming you didn't see The Time Traveler's Wife since posting, it is an fascinating concept,  but the movie is mostly a well done romantic drama.  I did like it although the time travel concept was subsumed by the characters personal interaction, and that's not a bad thing.  Very well acted.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: airyie on February 19, 2010, 03:25:41 AM
^still haven't seen it, but that is the first good review I've seen for it in a while.
I'm going to stop by the 7-11 later and see if they have a re-packaged version for a cheeper price.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: HairyDresden on March 15, 2010, 03:49:09 AM
I loved both the books and the TV series. I saw the TV series first before realizing they were based on characters from books.  When I discovered the books, I was a little taken back by the differences, but then I ended up enjoying the different story lines.  I think I'd have been more upset if they tried to make each book into an episode or base a season on one book (like they did with True Blood). I liked that they did something different and it worked.  I am still so bummed it was not renewed though.  I really, really loved that show...it made my Sunday night!
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Khouri on April 09, 2010, 04:32:34 PM
I love the books so much...so I was really disappointed with the series. When you read the books you start to get a feel for what Harry would look like...his attitude....and his general comportment. You also get a feel for how Karrin Murphy would look...and her general attitude and comportment. You even get a feel for Bob...and how his skull would look and talk. Then along comes the series...and everything has changed. I recognize that things can be better fleshed out in a book....but come on! Everyone...especially Murphy...just didn't ring true.
I'm afraid that's what happens when you let TV executives get hold of a script and make changes. If I had my way....Jim Butcher would have been executive producer of the series...answering to no one....and if his idea of what the series should look like doesn't float...then so be it. But I just got the sense that someone who hadn't read the series...or didn't care...had the final word on the project....and seriously dropped the ball.
Maybe they should try an "IT"-type mini-series for one of the books...and see what they can do with that. ???

As a reader from over the pond I can only agree with your sentiments, It seems to me that's what "Hollywood " does on a regular basis,Take a perfectly good story and screw it over with what some unknown bunch of scriptwriters think would be most palatable to the general audience. For instance the Hockey stick (lame), The 4 x 4 replacing the beloved Beetle (don't tell me youv'e run out of aircooled VDubs), Bob (was the actor someone's out of work brother).

If your going to make a TV series at least try and stay true to "some" of the important stuff in the books otherwise what's the point.

I love Jims work and always will but the TV series is a goner and it's better for that.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on April 09, 2010, 10:57:36 PM
I love Jims work and always will but the TV series is a goner and it's better for that.

There are a lot of us here who did and do like the show.   Realistically there are certain aspects of the books that simply cannot translate well on TV and I feel at least with Harry Dresden that was very much the character of the books.


Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: MitchellTF on April 22, 2010, 06:49:55 AM
I was torn between decent, and great. I gotta say, the series was enjoyable, and there were parts that didn't quite match the books. But a lot of the changes were understandable, a lot of the hatred seems overblown.

And, honestly? Ghost-Bob was pretty awesome. He was played very well, too. Heck, if a new series was made, I'd want Bob to be done like that again.

 When I read the books, the images of the characters I see are those from the TV Show. Even if the personalities are different.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on April 23, 2010, 04:20:04 AM
And, honestly? Ghost-Bob was pretty awesome. He was played very well, too. Heck, if a new series was made, I'd want Bob to be done like that again.


I agree.   Terrence Mann as Bob / Hrothbert of Bainbridge was probably one of the best things about the show.  I was very disappointed we didn't get to learn more about his backstory.

 
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: bkwyrm on April 28, 2010, 11:57:57 PM
I agree.   Terrence Mann as Bob / Hrothbert of Bainbridge was probably one of the best things about the show.  I was very disappointed we didn't get to learn more about his backstory.

 

I liked Terence Mann as Bob also, but his story should still have been Bob's, air elemental, spirit of intellect, etc. .
That lost love thing was a mistake.

The Dresden Files is still on my hard drive (Relax I bought from iTunes when the series was still running. That's when I finally admitted to myself that I was an die-hard fan of Harry's.) because I just can't bring myself to delete it not because I thought it was good.
If I had to characterize the brief season it would be as an enormous missed opportunity and a bitter disappointment.
If they thought so little of the series Jim created why did they bother to buy it and can Jim get the rights back so he can try again?

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on April 30, 2010, 07:37:28 AM
I liked Terence Mann as Bob also, but his story should still have been Bob's, air elemental, spirit of intellect, etc. .
That lost love thing was a mistake.

I have to disagree. (Warning: the following is only opinion.  I am not starting a ghost vs. Spirit of intellect thing. I am just explaining my personal taste in the matter.)  I feel it added to the character.  Go into the spoiler section for the books and do a search for threads about free will.  There are long, long, long debates about Bob of the show and free will.   All these overly philosophical answers to explain away how he is able to make choices and yet does not have free will simply because he's bound by an enchanted skull. That's loss of Freedom NOT Free will.    It's not semantics, philosophically speaking it's important and there is a difference.   With these debates still raging about the books can you imagine what would have happened if you had a character like Bob making choices and then claimed he had no free will on the show?  You'd have to spend like forty minutes of an episode just trying to explain that to the audience and most still won't get it.  Most readers still don't get it.    I could hear The Nostalgia Critic screaming in the back of my mind the catch phrase 'Start making sense!'

The fact is the spirit of intellect thing doesn't make sense to many people.  Have you tried to survey how many people, who read the books after seeing the show, were disappointed Bob of the books wasn't Hrothbert of Bainbridge?  I have.  The number is kind of high.

The fact is spirits of intellect aren't that interesting to me.   Part of the show's Bob's appeal was his mysterious past.  His angst.   The fact that he actually was a human soul and had sympathetic qualities because I don't really care for the ghosts of The Dresden Files novels. I love the books, just not the book ghosts.  As a person who has studied parapsychology I find the psychic echo version of ghosts really boring.  Now human consciousness living on after death and able to make contact with this plain of being, that's interesting.   

And I've got a soft spot for snarky and sardonic ghosts.  Hrothbert of Bainbridge, Captain Daniel Gregg (The ghost and Mrs. Muir), Sir Simon de Canterville (The Canterville Ghost).  These are fun ghosts.   Bob of the show was fun.  He was an actual person.   

The horny air spirit whose back story is never even properly questioned by our hero in the novels has started to bore me because no ne in the books acknowledges his mystery.  He was funny at first with his pop culture and snark and lechery but when you stop and think about it, he's repetitive.   Not to mention why does Dresden never ask what his original personality was like before he adjusted himself to the personalities of his owners?  You'd think this is the sort of thing Harry would have wanted to know ...years ago.
         
I'm sorry if this offends anyone.  Jim Butcher is a fun writer.  I like his books.  They're fun.  They're brain candy.  But the fact is if you speculate too long about the spirit of intellect version of Bob there are quite a few things you can poke holes at.


Quote
If they thought so little of the series Jim created why did they bother to buy it and can Jim get the rights back so he can try again?

They didn't think little of Jim Butcher's book series or they wouldn't have wanted to use it at all.   There were changes, most of which were very necessary.   You have to be realistic with what can or can't make sense on TV and what a TV audience will respond well toward.  Certain things seem great in a novel that just won't work on TV. 

The mystery about Hrothbert of Bainbridge's past is what kept me hooked with the show. It was something interesting that didn't exist in the books. And it didn't severely disappoint my ghost-obsessed imagination with the most boring type of echo hauntings.   You can have four vampire courts and five types of werewolves, trolls, goblins, faeries, zombie dinosaurs, skin-walkers and demons but a human soul-consciousness as a ghost doesn't exist in the books?   That disappointed me on multiple levels. That's why I'm kind of hoping things might change with the next book.

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: bkwyrm on May 01, 2010, 01:26:21 PM
I'm not offended, and I doubt anyone would be, I just disagree with you.
Bob, as snarky as he is in the books should have been left as is and he does have a back story spread out in the books.
When Harry released one of Bob's past personalities Bob nearly killed him (I don't have the books on hand to check but I think that's in "Dead Beat". ).
We have, in fact been getting bits and pieces through out the series and, if they bothered to check back with Jim, Bob could have been expanded as a character in the series.
He wasn't a ghost?
I doubt many would have noticed or cared about the distinction.


Quote
They didn't think little of Jim Butcher's book series or they wouldn't have wanted to use it at all.   There were changes, most of which were very necessary.   You have to be realistic with what can or can't make sense on TV and what a TV audience will respond well toward.  Certain things seem great in a novel that just won't work on TV. 

Now about what works and what doesn't.
This wasn't about what a TV audience can make sense of, they can make sense of everything from "The X-files" to "Fringe" and track the twist and turns of Walter ( Who is "grey" morally if ever a sympathetic character was.) and the seasons end of "Burn Notice" has just put Michael Weston in immediate moral peril that's been building for 3 seasons now.
Terence Mann as Bob struck me as a necessary change, that was correct even if turning him to the remaining half of a pair of star-crossed lovers wasn't.
Making changes with the Blue beetle was necessary, finance wise, these are things you do when you switch from the printed page to the screen.
Make visual what you can, drop long expository passages (Unless you can get Kate Blanchett to read them of course.), and in general map out the visual realm and your story arc so you know where you're going and why.
What we got was no story arc, looting a few of the books for points of interest (werewolves!), the awful treatment of the characters Jim created.
What we saw was a waste of money, time and talent, spent in an attempt to make something as formulaic as possible.

Like just about everyone here I watched the series come together with obsessive interest and growing alarm as I started seeing those little mis-steps on the road to the premier.
I don't think the writers lacked smarts, indeed there were enough touches that cropped up "Polka Lives!" that showed they knew the world but the blond-brunette switch followed by the dearth of information about what the episodes would include rang alarm bells.
SyFy blew this one and it had nothing to do with what a tv audience will and won't watch, they watch good tv if it catches their interest.
What they did was turn Jim's books into bad formulaic TV and if I were ever asked to give a course on what not to do with an interesting new book series you just bought for television I would use the Dresden File show as an object lesson.
With the best will in the world (They don't get money for flops and that's certainly motivating.) they gutted Jim's books and produced bad tv and it had nothing to do with what works on screen and what doesn't.





Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on May 01, 2010, 08:04:09 PM
I doubt many would have noticed or cared about the distinction.


Clearly you haven't seen the fan fiction archives...

Quote

Now about what works and what doesn't.
This wasn't about what a TV audience can make sense of, they can make sense of everything from "The X-files" to "Fringe" and track the twist and turns of Walter ( Who is "grey" morally if ever a sympathetic character was.) and the seasons end of "Burn Notice" has just put Michael Weston in immediate moral peril that's been building for 3 seasons now.

You're talking about the first season of a forty minute an episode urban fantasy.  The shows you're comparing to to are high budget major network productions that were long established before they added any real complexity to the storyline.  Do you remember the first season of X-files?    It's nothing like the final season.  It was two FBI agents with a week by week strange paranormal or extraterrestrial case that Dana would try to explain away.

We're talking about the first season of a weekly TV series about a wizard living in modern day Chicago as a private eye with a past of having murdered his mentor who wanted to likely use him as a weapon, meanwhile his female cop friend is having trouble adjusting to his supernatural world and is highly suspicious of everything.  When you think about it that's a lot of plot to cover in just twelve episodes.  There's simply not enough room to overly complicate Bob's back story with something that hasn't even been fully covered yet in the books thirteen years into the series.

Consider also Scifi only had the rights to the first five or six books.  If Jim Butcher had finally elaborated on Bob's back story with a clear cut explanation they would not be allowed to use it.   And the explanation has to cover: 1.  Why Harry doesn't question his lack of past.  2.  The still running headache inducing debate about free will (because the Dresdenverse definition of free will is VERY questionable that being bound by an enchanted skull suddenly destroys will. No, freedom and free will are not the same thing. They should NOT be treated like the same thing. It's highly disrespectful to real historical slavery because they were stripped of freedom as well, just their chains were physical, not magical.  Bob's shifting personality according to his owner can be viewed as the lack of free will but what about the claim that the faeries have no free will just because they can't lie?  That doesn't make sense to me.  3.  What Bob's original personality was.  The fact is once it was revealed that Bob's personality in the books was not really his own, but an adaptation of Harry's subconscious when he first met him, I lost intersted in the skull all together (so did most of the Hrothbert of Bainbridge fans).  How can anyone really care about a character whose personality is nothing more than something programmed?   And Harry doesn't stop to ask or wonder what his SLAVE'S original personality was?   That's kind of cruel when you think about it.   Without several books to try to justify it the TV audience is going to be turned off by it.   I am turned off by it.   That's why I've stopped looking forward to the skull's snarky scenes in the books.

Also I'm partial to human soul spirits.   The actual continued consciousness of an individual after death.   Other flavours of spirit bore me after a while.   They're vanilla to my rocky road ice cream.   

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Terence Mann as Bob struck me as a necessary change, that was correct even if turning him to the remaining half of a pair of star-crossed lovers wasn't.

Again, clearly you haven't seen much of the Dresden Files fan fiction archives.  Even in fanfiction net you'll find more fan fictions mentioning Winifred than Mab.   When you consider how rarely Winifred was even mentioned this is pretty impressive.   Over two hundred of the three hundred Dresden Files fan fictions on fan fiction net contain the show version of Bob or have tweaked the skull version of Bob to be the ghost.   Not necessarily on this forum, but in general, you're going to find the ghost version of Bob was liked more, and not just because he was physically standing there.

You can't blame Terrence Mann's Bob being a ghost on what ended the show.  The show had high ratings (go to neilson's website archives if you don't believe me).  There were times when the show's ratings beat those of Battlestar Galatica.    Check the forum archives of syfy's own forum for the show.  There was a poll back in 2007 on who was your favourite character on the show.    Guess who beat Harry Dresden himself by about twenty five percent more votes? 

In fact, I came across a very recent interview with Terrence Mann where he was asked about Dresden Files. Apparently he's still getting fan e-mail asking him about Bob and Winifred and if there's a chance he'd ever play Bob again.   Simply do a google search.  Hrothbert of Bainbridge has more fans than the spirit of intellect ever had.   So, like it or not, people with the same views as me (and there are more of us than you may realize) really liked him as a ghost and probably would have loathed a spirit of intellect even if it was Terrence Mann.  That's not enough humanity.  There's more to humanizing a character than giving him a physical / visible body.   We're not that shallow.

  
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: finnmacha on May 31, 2010, 12:08:36 AM
So, I'm guessing this is no longer an issue, but I recently found TDF Season 1 on Netflix and was able to watch it in it's entirety. As a big fan of the books, all I can say is...really!?

From what I saw, there was absolutely nothing...well...Dresden about the TV series! Now, I'm not stupid. I know transitioning from written to visual medium can be dicey at best, but I was absolutely unthrilled with the series.
Call me shallow, but:

An Army Jeep?
No trenchcoat?
A hockey stick!?!?
Murphy a single mom?
Butters a college drop-out slacker? Ok, so that's just how he came off to me. I expected him to pull out a Mt Dew and a bag of Cheetos everytime he was on screen.
A magic store?

And while Paul Blackthorne has been lauded around here, for me, he was quite possibly the most un-Dresden actor they could've cast. I know everyone has a different "vision" of the characters of their favorite novels and I've always pictured Dresden in the novels as looking a bit like the author himself. Tall, lanky, a little "geeky". Blackthorne just seemed too....polished. And where was the ever present Dresden sarcasm?
I'm going to leave the "look" of the show alone as I'm sure there wasn't a huge budget and they did what they could. I'll also leave Bob alone as I get how a disembodied voice in a skull wouldn't translate well to a TV series. But, again, where was the sarcasm?

Suffice to say I was sorely dissapointed and if there's a Big Screen adaptation in the works, I hope it gets completely re-tooled.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone or hurt anyone's feelings, but, man! Really!?
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on June 01, 2010, 12:58:48 AM

An Army Jeep?

If you bothered reading these forums these questions would have been answered about forty eight times by now.  

The fact is the beetle can only work in the books. When you got a six and a half foot tall actor those long takes are going to be brutal.  Besides that Beetles and Beetle parts are expensive and they would have had to slice one in half for interior shots.  

Think about it.  The Jeep is low tech.  It's old.  It serves the same exact purpose as the beetle.  Besides...  
(click to show/hide)


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No trenchcoat??

I heard this was a mobility issue.  A trench coat / duster would have been difficult to move around in.

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A hockey stick!?!??

Dresden is a blue collar wizard.  The idea was he would enchant whatever he could get a hold of.  Some people debated that a hockey stick is less conspicuous.   According to Jim Butcher the Hockey stick was supposed to have emotional significance for Harry but the show was canceled before they could get into that.  Apparently Harry's father used to take him to play hockey.

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Murphy a single mom??

I don't recall if it was on this forum or not but I remember reading that Jim Butcher wished he had made Murphy a mother but it was too far along in the book series to do it.

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Butters a college drop-out slacker? Ok, so that's just how he came off to me. I expected him to pull out a Mt Dew and a bag of Cheetos everytime he was on screen.?

That's not fair.  Butters physically of the show was exactly what was described in the books.  Or did you miss the short nerdish polka loving guy with issues bit that's all through the novels and show in regard to him?

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A magic store?

That's a scrying crystal.  It's traditional occultist magick.   As in real folklore. They had magical practitioners and occultists on set to make sure the magick in the show was real and researched.  Every symbol on Bob's skull for example is real spirit binding symbols, mostly from the Key of Solomon (One of the oldest known Grimoires of the dark ages). If you pause your DVD on any scene in Harry's lab you can see dozens of artifacts used in real magical tradition.  The magick on the show was impressively researched.  To this day I can't find any fantasy show that even remotely made as big of an effort into it's occult research.  Remember, Nic Cage was executive producer.  He's very into the occult and he wanted accuracy in occult / New age / Hermetic tradition.  Harry has a tracking spell he uses in almost every novel, you realize.   And quartz crystals DO come up in the books.   Wow... Just Wow... The fact that a fan of the books actually complained about this AND how Butters looked goes beyond ... that just blue my mind.  As someone who has studied parapsychology the fact that THIS was something that bothered you, the extensive research into the occult, using rare and out of print real grimoires...  My headaches...   This was one of the aspects of the show they went all out for.

I can understand most of the questions but this one!??   Why was a WIZARD using a scrying crystal in a tracking spell!?!   To me that's like asking 'Why does he have a pentacle?!'

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And while Paul Blackthorne has been lauded around here, for me, he was quite possibly the most un-Dresden actor they could've cast. I know everyone has a different "vision" of the characters of their favorite novels and I've always pictured Dresden in the novels as looking a bit like the author himself. Tall, lanky, a little "geeky". Blackthorne just seemed too....polished. And where was the ever present Dresden sarcasm?

It's there.  My favourite line being 'The barn door's open and the bag is seriously devoid of cats!'  That's from The Dresden Files episode Things that Go bump.  In a recent Q and A you can find on youtube Jim Butcher said he did not look like the wayhe hoped Dresden would look but he did act like him once the cameras started rolling.


Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: finnmacha on June 01, 2010, 01:38:23 PM
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If you bothered reading these forums these questions would have been answered about forty eight times by now.
 
Oh, I get that. I really do. In fact, I have read through these forums and found a lot of similar complaints and the fact of the matter is, no matter how many times someone tries to explain why certain changes were made, it doesn't change the fact that, with the exception of my Murphy complaint, the things that were changed were iconic parts of Dresden. It's kinda like saying Wolverine can be a guy with some knives, those claw thingies just don't work.


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Dresden is a blue collar wizard.  The idea was he would enchant whatever he could get a hold of.  Some people debated that a hockey stick is less conspicuous.   According to Jim Butcher the Hockey stick was supposed to have emotional significance for Harry but the show was canceled before they could get into that.  Apparently Harry's father used to take him to play hockey.
I'll give ya this one. Still a damned silly looking staff and maybe it coulda been more Wizard Staff and less Magical Gun. Also, it's not like a guy carrying a walking stick draws much attention in the real world, doubt he woulda been much more conspicuous in the Dresdenverse.

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That's not fair.  Butters physically of the show was exactly what was described in the books.  Or did you miss the short nerdish polka loving guy with issues bit that's all through the novels and show in regard to him?
Ok, ok, ok...maybe this was my own little hang up.  ::)

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That's a scrying crystal.  It's traditional occultist magick.   As in real folklore. They had magical practitioners and occultists on set to make sure the magick in the show was real and researched.  Every symbol on Bob's skull for example is real spirit binding symbols, mostly from the Key of Solomon (One of the oldest known Grimoires of the dark ages). If you pause your DVD on any scene in Harry's lab you can see dozens of artifacts used in real magical tradition.  The magick on the show was impressively researched.  To this day I can't find any fantasy show that even remotely made as big of an effort into it's occult research.  Remember, Nic Cage was executive producer.  He's very into the occult and he wanted accuracy in occult / New age / Hermetic tradition.  Harry has a tracking spell he uses in almost every novel, you realize.   And quartz crystals DO come up in the books.   Wow... Just Wow... The fact that a fan of the books actually complained about this AND how Butters looked goes beyond ... that just blue my mind.  As someone who has studied parapsychology the fact that THIS was something that bothered you, the extensive research into the occult, using rare and out of print real grimoires...  My headaches...   This was one of the aspects of the show they went all out for.

I can understand most of the questions but this one!??   Why was a WIZARD using a scrying crystal in a tracking spell!?!   To me that's like asking 'Why does he have a pentacle?!'
I'm not sure what this was all about, but my original question was about Harry working out of what appeared to be a Magic Store. I later learned it just looked like a store front and was his office/living space.

So, yea. I'm sorry for not perusing the forums a bit more and for beating the proverbial dead horse. In my defense, I had never had the chance to watch the show before just recently, so while everyone else's adoration/disdain had dimmed, mine was fresh. I've spent the last few days familiarizing myself with the board and, since I have absolutely zero problems with the novels, I doubt this'll be a repeat problem.




Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on June 01, 2010, 06:31:52 PM
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I'm not sure what this was all about, but my original question was about Harry working out of what appeared to be a Magic Store. I later learned it just looked like a store front and was his office/living space.

Whoops, sorry, that was my fault.  I misread what you said. I thought you said stone.  I thought you were talking about the crystal he used in his tracking spell. And don't let me drive you off. I was in a bad mood when I replied to you.  The humidity here was getting to me.



Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: finnmacha on June 01, 2010, 06:39:36 PM
And don't let me drive you off. I was in a bad mood when I replied to you.  The humidity here was getting to me.

No worries. I've been around enough boards to know what it's like when people bring up the same thing over and over...and over.  :P
I also shoulda known better than to post like that without reading more first.  ::)
I was a little shocked at the response my question got. Kinda figured it was a mis-read.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Tanstar on June 22, 2010, 03:53:35 AM
The Dresden Files was my favorite show on TV and I still have no idea why it was dropped.  Yes, it had some early show jitters. It was too formulaic and lacked a much needed story arc.  Many, many shows start out with these problems though. I loved the humor and the essence that was Harry.  Several years after the show died I finally bought the first three omnibus editions of the series (books 1-7) and fell in love all over again!  I'm glad I saw the show first and then read the books.  I've read the first eleven books over the past 2-3 months and have Changes waiting as my next read. 

There are some things I miss from the show, but the humor and Harry's personality are there, and even more so.  I morn the show and can't wait to read the next book!
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on June 22, 2010, 09:00:07 AM

From what I heard the story arc problem was in the middle of getting things going some executive told them that they wanted the episodes to be able to stand alone, sort of like the first season of Buffy.   But they slipped in the story arc of Justin Morningway anyway.

I miss this show.  No other show made by the Scifi Channel has ever been able to hold my interest.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: nthnclls on August 28, 2010, 03:04:51 AM
I know this is an old thread, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway...I liked it.  It wasn't great, but it was good enough that I've enjoyed every episode I've seen so far.  That's not true for many shows...
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Jaeh on October 23, 2010, 01:06:41 PM
yes old thread, thread necromancy, yeah yeah yeah...

I just want to say that I miss this show a lot. *sigh*
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: jacksworld82 on October 23, 2010, 04:55:03 PM
I see that this is an old thread, but thought i would put in my thoughts anyway. I enjoyed the show very much. In fact, i had no idea about the books until after the first season ended. I was wondering if it was going to come back for another season and started to look around for answers online. There i found out about the books and i fell in love with them. As i read the books in the following order, they just seemed to get better and better. Anyhow, after reading the books i was a bit disappointed with the changes in the show. I can understand why some of them were made but in overall i pretty much enjoyed the show. I would have bought the 1st season on DVD, but didn't see the point in bothering since they canceled it. It would be great if they went and restarted the series. Now that more people are well aware of the books the show may get more ratings? Don't know, i haven't found the reason why they canceled it yet. But would love to see that happen.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: adgramaine on October 24, 2010, 09:49:30 PM
... we lost Dresden and got handed Sanctuary. No offense to any fans that are out there, but that seems an entirely unfair exchange IMO  ???

I'll post my obligatory follow up elsewhere....
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on October 24, 2010, 11:07:04 PM
... we lost Dresden and got handed Sanctuary. No offense to any fans that are out there, but that seems an entirely unfair exchange IMO  ???

I agree.

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Stitch on October 24, 2010, 11:20:46 PM
... we lost Dresden and got handed Sanctuary. No offense to any fans that are out there, but that seems an entirely unfair exchange IMO  ???

It's worse than that. We lost Dresden and got handed, what was it, Painkiller Jane?
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: dragonhavn on November 13, 2010, 05:47:47 PM
chiming in with an uncooperative keyboard and 0.02cents: If not for the show, I'd never have picked up the books and I'd have missed two wonderful views of the same world. personally, i could handle dresden followed by sanctuary much the way i enjoyed brisco followed by xfiles a few millennia ago. A series of movies more closely based on the books, wonderful idea. Being a fan fic writer (no, not in the dresden verse, too much established stuffs) the concept of the tv show as an alternate universe is both captivating and charming. And as many people have pointed out: Bob. Yeah. All in all, I miss the show and purchased the dvd collection just a few days after it hit the shelves. I just want dresden to continue in all t he forms it has, including vid, until Jim is very, very, very old .... LOL. End transmission
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Liliona on November 17, 2010, 01:32:08 AM
I liked the series.  I had never heard of the books or Jim Butcher, until the series came out and now Jim is definitely my favorite author, I've read all his books, Dresden and Alera. I read Shannon's books too now.  I do think the series could have been done better.  There was so much that could have been done with it that they just ignored.  And frankly, I like Sanctuary more!  But Sanctuary didn't replace Dresden right off anyway. 

Actually, at this moment, I'm watching the DVD's. My husband had them on when I came home.  And on Jim's site.  And getting ready to read more of Side Jobs when I'm done here! 
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: jap1284 on November 19, 2010, 09:10:55 PM
I would have loved the show if ....

a) The casting was better  (with the exception of the character actor who played bob)
b) The shows themselves were more well thought out and better written (they were a little nonsensical which is a shame since there was so much good material from the book).

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: stswjb007 on December 02, 2010, 07:59:52 AM
The Sci Fi TV series was alright but it lacked the feeling of the books. In order for this series to reach its full potential it needs to be produced by a company such as HBO who has proven over the years to be masters of making TV series that easily match the high standards of a Hollywood movie production. I also believe that the best hope for the series would be not to make a single series but instead a series of miniseries with each book consisting of two or three hour long episodes. If done in this kind of format the stories of each novel can remain intact with minimal alterations and would potentially allow all 13, soon to be 14, books to be brought to life in a reasonable time span of 7 or fewer seasons. And to kick off this new and improved Dresden series I think it would be a great idea to see Storm Front hit the big screen which I feel would draw in the audience a series of this magnitude would require to survive, and because I think it would be awesome to see Dresden kicking butt in a theater near me.
Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Darkling on December 02, 2010, 07:28:51 PM
The Sci Fi TV series was alright but it lacked the feeling of the books. In order for this series to reach its full potential it needs to be produced by a company such as HBO who has proven over the years to be masters of making TV series that easily match the high standards of a Hollywood movie production. I also believe that the best hope for the series would be not to make a single series but instead a series of miniseries with each book consisting of two or three hour long episodes. If done in this kind of format the stories of each novel can remain intact with minimal alterations and would potentially allow all 13, soon to be 14, books to be brought to life in a reasonable time span of 7 or fewer seasons. And to kick off this new and improved Dresden series I think it would be a great idea to see Storm Front hit the big screen which I feel would draw in the audience a series of this magnitude would require to survive, and because I think it would be awesome to see Dresden kicking butt in a theater near me.

I'm not sure a movie will happen after what happened with Sorcerer's Apprentice.  Also Lionsgate still has the rights for a year or two.   Technically Storm Front does have a movie but it's never been released to DVD.  It's an extended version of the episode and it makes a lot more sense than the episode cut.  It's a polished up and refurbished version of the original pilot.  It aired once on Scifi at three AM and wasn't even listed on the schedule when it did air and it's never been released to DVD though it was originally to be a bonus feature on the season 1 DVD release.  I don't know why they pulled it at the last second.  Originally the set was advertised as including the extended pilot.

Title: Re: POLL: End Game Opinion of the Series
Post by: Shaoli on December 23, 2010, 01:20:36 AM
I first heard about The Dresden Files by watching the T.V. series.  I enjoyed the series, but then my friend had gotten the 1st book on audio.  I listened to that and really enjoyed it.  I went out and picked up all 12 of the current books on audio and am now in the process of listening to them a second time and find it even more enjoyable than the 1st.  You pick up on things you miss the 1st time (foreshadowing etc) and think "ahh yeah...now I get it".

While the books were significantly different than the series, what would be great is to see a feature film made for a few of the books.  The only drawback is that the movie studio would end up butcheri.....err "taking artistic liberties" with it.  My pipe dream would be a feature film with the cast from the series and a script that wasn't significantly altered from the book.  Rarely has a book ever made it to the silver screen without being a huge disappointment though there have been a few rare exceptions to the rule.

Until then I can only impatiently await the 13th book and hope that it comes out on audio close to the hardcover release.  While I have always loved to read, this has been my first real experience with audio books and I found it to be a refreshing change of pace.  I have always enjoyed James Marsters as an actor and thought he has done a superlative job in his Dresden readings.