ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: potestas on August 05, 2014, 11:51:57 AM

Title: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: potestas on August 05, 2014, 11:51:57 AM
conjure metal, create gravity wells. Any ideas
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Taran on August 05, 2014, 12:25:44 PM
I always look at Avatar the Last Air Bender for inspiration.  Check out some earth bending and see what they do
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: blackstaff67 on August 05, 2014, 12:42:51 PM
Strengthen/weaken things; throw lightning, throw magma; mess with gravity/electromagnetism; reinforce your car/bike/house/windows; move/affect plants, find ores; move/affect/potentially see through rock/metal or other reasonable materials; shape all of previously said things.  Don't underestimate Earth magic, it's more powerful than you think.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: CrimsonJoker on August 05, 2014, 12:50:24 PM
Earth is the most powerful of the four Classical Elements in terms of versatility.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: PirateJack on August 05, 2014, 01:30:31 PM
More abstractly earth is typically associated with life (men being moulded out of clay, the Earth Mother, Gaia, etc.) and growth, which gives you a lot of options. If you buy into the Gaia theory you could also make an argument for using earth magic for divination, given the interconnectedness of the planet. Vulcanism is one we've seen before, in White Night, which was cool.

Earth magic also seems to be the more energy intensive, but longer lasting type of magic in the Dresdenverse, so spells cast using it could be more stable and long lasting than your typical spell.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: JGray on August 05, 2014, 01:51:29 PM
Electromagnetism falls into the realm of Earth magic. Harry's thrown some 'pull guns out of people's hands' spells out using Earth magic.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: bobjob on August 05, 2014, 02:40:06 PM
Earth Magic thaumaturgy can do some cool things... like drop a satellite on your stronghold.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Tedronai on August 05, 2014, 03:17:48 PM
Earth Magic?  Or Earth Evocation?

A lot of the things in the above posts are almost definitely beyond the scope of evocation.

Earth-themed Thaumaturgy (or evo-thaum) gets you some impressive versatility, but then, so do most thematic Thaum specialties.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Melendwyr on August 05, 2014, 04:05:04 PM
I'd totally let Earth evocation cause people's feet to sink into earth or stone.  Of limited utility inside a wooden structure, admittedly... but an effective block to movement.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: SpoonR on August 05, 2014, 04:11:45 PM
Quote from: Tedronai on August 05, 2014, 03:17:48 PM
Earth Magic?  Or Earth Evocation?

Good point. A couple ideas from other games: grasping hands coming out of the earth, making a chunk of rock explode (or just throwing a big rock), temporary stone wall, summon your lightsaber/warden sword to your hand. Ride a chunk of earth around. Passwall. Sense anything touching the floor. Guess someone's weight. Count the number of pennies in the jar.

Given that ley lines are a thing, I think you could block or counterspell by 'grounding' the magic energy. Also seems to be the element for manipulating most solid objects, so reinforcing (t-shirt into armor) & destroying armor would be easy.  Telekinesis. "Enhancing" black powder to make a better bomb, maybe, or would that be over the line?  Dig  a grave in front of someone as a flashy threat.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: potestas on August 05, 2014, 04:22:30 PM
i was thinking holding people in the air, kind of makes super strnegth worthless, summoning hunks of iron from the earth and into things that dont like iron. Inside i suppose you could cause chuncks of metal(nails beams ) so suddenly lash out and into said creatures that dont like Iron. Mostly i was thinking earth magic would be the one thing that could pretty much get things that are immune to lots of stuff. A giant hole is still a hole and you could be stuck a while even if you dont need to breath.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Starjammer on August 05, 2014, 06:39:17 PM
Quote from: SpoonR on August 05, 2014, 04:11:45 PM
Given that ley lines are a thing, I think you could block or counterspell by 'grounding' the magic energy.

Without getting spoilery, that's how the Forest People do it.  And they're good at it.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Troy on August 06, 2014, 03:47:10 PM
I like this question and I like the responses.

I have a yet-to-be-played character with the High Concept Jaded Terramancer[/i].

Perhaps this thread will be of some help to you, because it's along the lines of the types of things I think[/u] should be possible with elemental evocation:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37778.msg1847469.html#msg1847469

If your game thinks of it like this it will A) be more like how the DFRPG book describes the elements and B) put all the elements on "equal" footing with Spirit.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: solbergb on August 06, 2014, 05:10:09 PM
There's a lot of overlap and really, many things Harry does are combinations of elements.  His Fuego rote nearly always has a "knockback" component, which clearly comes from spirit, even though he uses his blasting rod to control it and thinks of it as fire.  Harry has perhaps read too many comic books, where "energy blasts" of various elements also knock enemies around.   He controlled lightning from a storm and thought of it as "fire" but it likely also used a bit of earth (for magnetism/targeting) and air (for weather).   Carlos might have managed that same effect a completely different way, focusing perhaps on the amount of water in the atmosphere and channeling the bolt through the conductive medium.

The answer is, any element can do anything in the realm of a mechanical attack, maneuver, block and to a limited extent (control shifts are hard) move.  Harry, for example, has used Fozare on a number of occasions to give himself a "superleap" sort of power, but as he's crappy at control, it's always scary for him.   Because Blocks are allowed, blocks against perception are allowed, although they'll manifest differently than the "spirit veil of invisibility".   Fire could do very bright light, air or water might do fog, earth can raise a dust cloud....they all block vision, and probably interfere with enemy vision more than your own (as veil mechanics dictate) but the primary advantage of a spirit veil is that it's subtle (for that matter, Fozare type effects are a lot more subtle than ripping up the ground or manifesting tons of water that turn into ectoplasm later..spirit is subtle, that's its thing).    If you're wondering how I'd use fire as a movement power, well, you can make ice bridges over water obstacles, or probably even turn your feet into ice-skates if you douse them in water first.  If you're reasonably resistant to fire and abrasion you might even make an explosion that hurtles you in a direction.  Spirit, earth or air are better for leaping about, and water for moving IN water, or surfing on water.

The details of what you do dictates which focus items you can use, whether refinement/specialization works, whether your aspects help or hinder and of course how likely it is for your opposition to counter it, or the environment to enhance or hinder it.   The details also give hints to what fallout does, or what happens if a high shift attack misses its target and hits the environment instead.



Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Mr. Death on August 07, 2014, 04:21:46 PM
When I want to get creative with Earth magic, I usually go for the magnetism route -- and this is doable with Evocation, Harry does it with Lord Raith's keys in Blood Rites.

I once had an NPC hit a PC by using magnetism to make her smack herself in the face with her own gun. Another PC then stuck that NPC -- or rather, the steel-bound book she was trying to get away with -- to a car to keep her from getting away.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Dougansf on August 07, 2014, 06:13:40 PM
Quote from: potestas on August 05, 2014, 04:22:30 PM
i was thinking holding people in the air, kind of makes super strnegth worthless,

This is one of my PC's rote spells, just for that reason.  Inspired by how the Archive dealt with Magog.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Melendwyr on August 07, 2014, 06:24:01 PM
Between gravitational and magnetic force, you can do a lot with projectiles.  It's not quite as flexible as pure force effects, but it's close.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: potestas on August 07, 2014, 11:57:24 PM
Quote from: Melendwyr on August 07, 2014, 06:24:01 PM
Between gravitational and magnetic force, you can do a lot with projectiles.  It's not quite as flexible as pure force effects, but it's close.
what makes it better is how it can bypass immunities. Magic immune no problem  40 foot hole from no where . Need some iron to take down tiny no problem every nail in the are pulled from area and hurled into his large ass I thinkni like it best
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: gojj on August 08, 2014, 12:07:55 AM
Quote from: potestas on August 07, 2014, 11:57:24 PM
what makes it better is how it can bypass immunities. Magic immune no problem  40 foot hole from no where . Need some iron to take down tiny no problem every nail in the are pulled from area and hurled into his large ass I thinkni like it best
Eh, if something is immune to magic I think it is just immune to magic. You can flavor it however you want, but it still boils down to you using magic to attack something that is by nature immune to such energies. Fire magic dissipates moments before impact, the flung nails seem to curve around them, and the hole appears all around them except for a peninsula they can walk on.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Haru on August 08, 2014, 12:15:31 AM
Quote from: gojj on August 08, 2014, 12:07:55 AM
Eh, if something is immune to magic I think it is just immune to magic. You can flavor it however you want, but it still boils down to you using magic to attack something that is by nature immune to such energies. Fire magic dissipates moments before impact, the flung nails seem to curve around them, and the hole appears all around them except for a peninsula they can walk on.
That's how I'd interpret it as well. Harry vs. the Ogre in SK is a good example of this.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Yosepi on August 08, 2014, 12:27:42 AM
Another example that says an object shot with magic would bypass magic immunity is the
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: MijRai on August 08, 2014, 12:57:23 AM
If I remember right, didn't Harry still use magic to light the Sterno that burned up Talos the fake-ogre?  By your interpretation, that would no longer work.  Or, the example of the Raith Deeps in Blood Rites; Harry flings his keys at Papa Raith's face with earth magic, and even with his anti-magic powers, it hits him and messes his face up good.  So, the nails of the situation (keys, technically) still hit the target just fine. 
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: solbergb on August 08, 2014, 01:10:14 AM
Quote from: gojj on August 08, 2014, 12:07:55 AM
Eh, if something is immune to magic I think it is just immune to magic. You can flavor it however you want, but it still boils down to you using magic to attack something that is by nature immune to such energies.

The Dresden books don't support that assertion.  The prior two posts gave good examples of why.  In the case of the keys, even if the magic dissipates the keys still have plenty of energy.  Although in the Raith fight, the control over the keys did NOT dissipate, indicating that it mattered whether the energy was directed against Raith, not mere proximity.  It's likely the same reason the death curse that neutered him worked.  The curse prevented life force from approaching him via feeding, but as it didn't target him, it wasn't affected by his immunity.

Another example is in the Scarecrow fight at Arctus Tor.  Dresden blew out the ground beneath it and it was flung into the air.  Making the ground explode by filling it with energy was the magic part.  The explosion itself was mundane, and the protection didn't help.

Now all that said, it may depend on why you are magic immune.  Some flavors of this might behave more like a D&D anti-magic field, and somebody who's immune because magic goes haywire around them might screw up targeting of something like the keys (but not something like a rock tossed with telekenesis and released from control while out of range of the "haywire" effect).
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 08, 2014, 01:48:30 AM
It depends on how The Catch is worded. There's no such thing as "standard" magic immunity.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: solbergb on August 08, 2014, 12:55:32 PM
Actually, Our World and Your Story are quite clear on this point.  Standard magic immunity catch is "immune to mortal magic, not mundane sources of harm", also phrased as "immune only to mortal magic". It's consistent with every character that's demonstrated it in the books, and for that matter, ways of bypassing it, regardless of source, are also consistent in the Dresden Files stories.  This is how it is represented in this game, there is no "extra" weakness.

This is by the way, worth a +5 catch - both Madrigal and Lord Talos have magic immunity via magic items, and get a +1 for the item, +5 for the catch cost break on physical immunity.  Real Ogres just get the immunity straight up, it costs them only 3 refresh and it has no weaknesses beyond "it isn't mortal magic".

What that catch seems to mean is NOT "all spells fail near you if they cause anything bad to happen, directly or indirectly".  It means based on the books "you can not target them with magical energy and have it work, regardless of the shifts you generate.  Anything around them, however, is fair game".   Another way of thinking about it might be that you can't make a magical connection to them...not with a focus (hair, blood, etc) nor with line of sight a;though that causes issues with the famous Maggie death curse.  So I like the former definition better.

Maggie bypassed the catch by using a blood connection to Raith (Harry and Thomas) and explicitly wording the spell so that Lord Raith wasn't the target, but instead the life energies of those he interacted with were the target.  Which in a RPG would probably be rules lawyering, but Maggie's player clearly was that kind of person :)



Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 08, 2014, 01:08:46 PM
But "immunity to magic" isn't actually a Power. It's a particular way to set up the Catch on a Physical Immunity Power. And The Catch is freeform.

You absolutely can set up your physical immunity to magic so that it stops indirect magical attacks. Might not even affect the cost of the Power, since the rules for costing The Catch are kinda wonky.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: solbergb on August 08, 2014, 05:24:06 PM
I'm pretty sure we're expected to use "Catch = Immune to Mortal Magic" as the baseline for anything in the books where Dresden encountered something he couldn't affect directly, since every single monster in "our world" with that power has it written the same way, as do all the other examples of "immune to everything but XXX".

"Immune to mortal magic and anything mortal magic has affected" is more what you're shooting for, and that's not going to get the +5 catch.   It won't put you down in the +2 range of most ghosts for physical immunity, but it's probably more like +3.  We've also got pretty much no canon examples of such a thing, so whatever your high concept is, it has to be something new under the sun.   I mean you can also write "immune to white court vampires" in the catch, including anything direct or indirect they might do, but I see that failing in character creation phase - your other table members aren't likely to buy your reasoning.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Kintotech on August 08, 2014, 06:20:35 PM
I've also justified Earth magic as a base for certain types of lightning spells in the past as well (Or, inversely, discussed using it to ground lightning spells).
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 08, 2014, 10:24:29 PM
Quote from: solbergb on August 08, 2014, 05:24:06 PM
...every single monster in "our world" with that power has it written the same way,

Actually, that's not the case. The Grendelkin might be vulnerable to magic other than fire magic, and Ogres might be immune to non-mortal magic as well. The book mentions that both are uncertain.

Quote from: solbergb on August 08, 2014, 05:24:06 PM
"Immune to mortal magic and anything mortal magic has affected" is more what you're shooting for, and that's not going to get the +5 catch.   It won't put you down in the +2 range of most ghosts for physical immunity, but it's probably more like +3.  We've also got pretty much no canon examples of such a thing, so whatever your high concept is, it has to be something new under the sun.

Actually, Outsiders probably have something like that. Or maybe something broader. But it's pretty clear that just channelling your magic through a rock won't do much good against them.

We also have examples of people who are really good at counterspelling. It wouldn't be a stretch at all for a counterspeller to cancel a key-launching spell as easily as a fireball.

As for the wording and the costing, the game mostly leaves those up to the player and the GM. Sensible people generally don't use The Catch exactly as written, though.

Quote from: solbergb on August 08, 2014, 05:24:06 PM
I mean you can also write "immune to white court vampires" in the catch, including anything direct or indirect they might do, but I see that failing in character creation phase - your other table members aren't likely to buy your reasoning.

I'd allow that. As for a justification...you are a friend to the demons that inhabit WCVs, and they won't let their hosts hurt you. Or maybe some god has placed a particular protection upon you.

The cost would depend on the game, though. In some games that's super awesome, in some it's very minor.
Title: Re: what can you do with earth magic
Post by: vultur on August 09, 2014, 05:52:06 AM
Earth block (defensive) - sudden gravity pulse makes attacks miss you as the attacker or weapon is pulled out of position. Intense magnetic force repels things (even living things - the same way you can levitate a frog with a strong enough magnetic field).

Earth block (offensive) - intense gravity sticks opponent to the ground. The soil (or a metal, stone or brick floor) swallows the opponent up to his knees, making him unable to move.

Earth attack  - lightning bolt, chain lightning for a spray attack, exploding ball lightning for a zone-wide attack (electromagnetism); crushing gravity; hurl metal, stone, glass, or ceramic objects at the opponent

Earth maneuver - apply a "Magnetized" aspect to boost your next earth spell on that target. Use gravity or magic to apply a "slowed down/held in place/impeded" type aspect. Tear up the terrain or buildings (sheetrock, brick, concrete, metal, glass all come from the earth) to apply scene aspects. Etc.