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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: vultur on June 14, 2014, 03:49:00 AM

Title: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: vultur on June 14, 2014, 03:49:00 AM
What do you think it would cost in Refresh terms to be a walking conjunction, i.e. to be able to (CD spoilers)
(click to show/hide)

I think all it actually means is changing the possible take-out conditions, and non-Halloween killed immortals still go away for quite a while I think, so it might not really have any mechanical weight at all and thus be -0.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Blk4ce on June 14, 2014, 06:59:21 AM
Pretty much. You just give them one more option for take-out. In case you /want/ to give a mechanical benefit, give them a re-skinned "All are equal before God" and put it at -1. A Highlander character would have such power.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Belial666 on June 14, 2014, 07:57:39 AM
There aren't any characters who are walking conjunctions. Any of them who were have died in accidents like having an airplane fall off the sky and onto them while they were taking a stroll, having all four tires of their car blow up leading to it falling off the road a hundred feet down a ravine only to be run over by a speeding train, or termites eating the supports in their house leading to its collapse and the subsequent explosion of the gas main.


In other words, if simply knowing the right time of the year to kill immortals makes you a fugitive, what would being able to kill them 24/7 do to you?
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Blk4ce on June 14, 2014, 08:06:43 AM
There aren't any characters who are walking conjunctions. Any of them who were have died in accidents like having an airplane fall off the sky and onto them while they were taking a stroll, having all four tires of their car blow up leading to it falling off the road a hundred feet down a ravine only to be run over by a speeding train, or termites eating the supports in their house leading to its collapse and the subsequent explosion of the gas main.


In other words, if simply knowing the right time of the year to kill immortals makes you a fugitive, what would being able to kill them 24/7 do to you?
One god uses such a character as a weapon to kill an enemy god. That's a plausible scenario.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Belial666 on June 14, 2014, 08:27:53 AM
Unlikely. Just because you can kill a god if you take them out doesn't mean you can actually defeat them. Said god could be standing right behind you with a gun (or the godly equivalent) pointed at the back of your head and you wouldn't notice them at all because the veil they were using would be too strong for you to see through. Said god could send an arctic ice storm your way and freeze you to death without even getting close to you. Said god could simply wait for you to use a Way to reach their domain - and then redirect it to the nearest volcano or other natural hazard they have ready.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Blk4ce on June 14, 2014, 08:55:26 AM
Unlikely. Just because you can kill a god if you take them out doesn't mean you can actually defeat them. Said god could be standing right behind you with a gun (or the godly equivalent) pointed at the back of your head and you wouldn't notice them at all because the veil they were using would be too strong for you to see through. Said god could send an arctic ice storm your way and freeze you to death without even getting close to you. Said god could simply wait for you to use a Way to reach their domain - and then redirect it to the nearest volcano or other natural hazard they have ready.
If a God has an asset like this at his/her disposal, he/she wouldn't leave him without some serious protection (that would be negated by herself at a moment's notice of course).
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Belial666 on June 14, 2014, 10:26:51 AM
Then it ends up being god vs god in direct power. Meaning the proxy is no longer an asset.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Blk4ce on June 14, 2014, 10:35:47 AM
It is, because it has the power of tipping the balance. It gives a serious edge.
For example he has this

Godkiller [-0]:Every action that you participate in, can potentially kill immortals

That gives you justification to put an aspect to a ritual "Slaying Immortals", even if all you did was a declaration or giving a consequence. Every god with enemies will value that power. Their enemies will STAY dead.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Locnil on June 14, 2014, 03:29:52 PM
It presumes that gods wouldn't be more interested in the status quo than trying to profit off upsetting it. Given that entities who disrupt the status quo tend to have much shorter lives than their counterparts, I wouldn't call this a valid assumption. Think of it as a Prisoner's Dilemma on a divine level.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Taran on June 14, 2014, 04:36:14 PM
Is there a power that makes someone immortal?

Typically a recovery power or "living Dead" or some reskinned power thereof.

I think the power has to be at least equal in refresh to the power that makes them immortal.  Often, though, this might simply be an aspect.  So, I don't think it comes down to a refresh cost.

I think you'd need narrative justification and that's it.

(click to show/hide)


It doesn't necessarily mean they have the creatures' catch.  That is something completely separate.

How is said character able to do this, narratively? 

1. I think it should be an aspect at the very least
2. It should require a FP to invoke said aspect. 
3. They still need to be able to kill their opponent.  This 'power' shouldn't give them access to any specific catch.  So if the opponent is nigh invulnerable, good luck killing them in the first place
4.  Meta-gaming, if you're sending this creature/person against an a PC, you should let them know that Character death is on the table.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Blk4ce on June 14, 2014, 04:44:12 PM
I like your suggestions, except number 2. Powers that require you to spend FP is something I don't like, you basically pay an extra refresh.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Taran on June 14, 2014, 04:54:13 PM
I like your suggestions, except number 2. Powers that require you to spend FP is something I don't like, you basically pay an extra refresh.

Spending a FP is not the equivalent of a refresh.  Fp's are used for so much more.  Besides, that's HOW you invoke character aspects.  You shouldn't get to do it for free.

It's how Knights of the cross use All Creatures Are Equal Before God so there is precedent.  That on top of the fact that Knights have ALSO paid refresh to use a power that requires a FP.

In fact there's a stunt (and stunts require refresh) where you have to pay a FP to get a +3 damage bonus.

I don't think paying a FP to be able to dictate a permanent kill against an immortal is high price to pay.  How often will it come up?  Not often.  In the mean-time, you can use that FP for other things

Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Blk4ce on June 14, 2014, 05:13:05 PM
Ok, that's your playstyle. But for me it's not agreeable. Spending an FP for a power that I ALREADY paid for is not right, I believe, even if it is once every ten scenes.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Taran on June 14, 2014, 05:19:51 PM
Ok, that's your playstyle. But for me it's not agreeable. Spending an FP for a power that I ALREADY paid for is not right, I believe, even if it is once every ten scenes.

Quote
Effects:
All Creatures Are Equal Before God. This is the
truest purpose of the Swords of the Cross,
the ability that makes even ancient dragons
take pause when facing a Knight. When
facing an opponent, the Knight may spend a
fate point to ignore that opponent’s defensive
abilities

and

Quote
Killer Blow: Add 3 to the damage of a Fists
attack on a successful hit, once per scene, for a
fate point. This stacks with any

Just because you wouldn't personally buy a power like that doesn't mean they don't exist or are unbalanced.  In fact, I'm not even suggesting that it be a power.  I'm simply saying that it's a matter of invoking an aspect.  You aren't paying ANY refresh at all.

Are you saying that  you never invoke your character aspects?  That's the whole point of using FP's.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Blk4ce on June 14, 2014, 05:59:26 PM
I never said they don't exist or are unbalanced. I am well aware that they exist, just that I, personally, don't like them.

It's one thing to pay for an invoke, and another to pay for a power AND THEN pay also the invoke. In my opinion, there shouldn't be a need for a power like that. These things are better served as character aspects.
I mean, isn't paying 2 refresh for 1 stunt a little unfair? That's what it is basically. And it doesn't stop there, you have to pay an FP every time.

EDIT: In case you didn't realise it, we are saying the same thing, that such a power is better kept as an aspect only.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Belial666 on June 14, 2014, 07:17:30 PM
The whole issue with this though is that immortal people are basically mantles. Even with the power to kill them, you don't really kill them; the mantle immediately goes to someone else and a couple years down the line it's "Meet the new Maeve. Same as the old Maeve." In fact, if you thoroughly kill an immortal non-permanently it might take them longer to return than if you really murder the mantle's "host". And if you imprison them, you take them out much longer than in either case - potentially permanently.

That's the whole point of the existence of Demonreach; trapping immortals.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Taran on June 14, 2014, 07:19:27 PM
That's a good point.  There are other 'take out' conditions that are much more enduring than death.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: vultur on June 14, 2014, 07:47:25 PM
The whole issue with this though is that immortal people are basically mantles. Even with the power to kill them, you don't really kill them; the mantle immediately goes to someone else and a couple years down the line it's "Meet the new Maeve. Same as the old Maeve." In fact, if you thoroughly kill an immortal non-permanently it might take them longer to return than if you really murder the mantle's "host". And if you imprison them, you take them out much longer than in either case - potentially permanently.

That's the whole point of the existence of Demonreach; trapping immortals.

Very true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the power couldn't exist anyway.


It presumes that gods wouldn't be more interested in the status quo than trying to profit off upsetting it. Given that entities who disrupt the status quo tend to have much shorter lives than their counterparts, I wouldn't call this a valid assumption. Think of it as a Prisoner's Dilemma on a divine level.

That may be the general rule, but what about entities that are basically personifications of destruction like Surtur or Apep, or trickster gods like Loki or Coyote? I don't think such beings would refrain from upsetting balances just because of their own safety.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: vultur on June 14, 2014, 07:51:24 PM
There aren't any characters who are walking conjunctions. Any of them who were have died in accidents like having an airplane fall off the sky and onto them while they were taking a stroll, having all four tires of their car blow up leading to it falling off the road a hundred feet down a ravine only to be run over by a speeding train, or termites eating the supports in their house leading to its collapse and the subsequent explosion of the gas main.


In other words, if simply knowing the right time of the year to kill immortals makes you a fugitive, what would being able to kill them 24/7 do to you?

Unless that character is an immortal themselves...
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Sanctaphrax on June 15, 2014, 12:23:21 AM
I mean, isn't paying 2 refresh for 1 stunt a little unfair?

...no.

There are plenty of abilities that are worth 2 Refresh. Killer Blow isn't one of them, though. That stunt is garbage.

That may be the general rule, but what about entities that are basically personifications of destruction like Surtur or Apep, or trickster gods like Loki or Coyote? I don't think such beings would refrain from upsetting balances just because of their own safety.

The available evidence indicates that they're not doing much to upset the balance. Unless you want to pin global warming on Surtr or something, the planet doesn't show many signs of their interference.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Hick Jr on June 15, 2014, 12:41:14 AM
I'd let you have that power for [-0] as long as you had an Aspect related to it that could be both invoked and Compelled as appropriate.

Quote
pin global warming on Surtr or something
*scribbles down awesome game idea*
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: narphoenix on June 15, 2014, 01:08:46 AM
Killer Blow isn't one of them, though. That stunt is garbage.

Ah. Sanctaphrax the diplomat.  ;D

Quote
The available evidence indicates that they're not doing much to upset the balance. Unless you want to pin global warming on Surtr or something, the planet doesn't show many signs of their interference.

I think they already pinned that on Summer at the beginning of SK.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: vultur on June 16, 2014, 02:08:20 AM
The available evidence indicates that they're not doing much to upset the balance. Unless you want to pin global warming on Surtr or something, the planet doesn't show many signs of their interference.

I agree. I just don't think "they're worried about being killed" is a good explanation for why they're not, if those beings in the DV are like their mythological versions (which they generally are). I think there has to be a 'hard' limit in place.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: potestas on June 21, 2014, 07:59:02 PM
The whole issue with this though is that immortal people are basically mantles. Even with the power to kill them, you don't really kill them; the mantle immediately goes to someone else and a couple years down the line it's "Meet the new Maeve. Same as the old Maeve." In fact, if you thoroughly kill an immortal non-permanently it might take them longer to return than if you really murder the mantle's "host". And if you imprison them, you take them out much longer than in either case - potentially permanently.

That's the whole point of the existence of Demonreach; trapping immortals.

I think i have spoilers i here and I dont know how to do that thing so dont read if you dont want to know stuff

This whole mantle thing has really bent the dresden world. We have the new knight of the cross saying its just the person but he doesnt feel pain. We have mantles dropping left and right in the last two books. I mean really is mab a diety or is she just some gal who became mab. Maybe we got this whole mantle thing messed up or JB messed up with bringing it in. It has to be more then just "in your head" the jewish knight is wrong. one slate was  drug addict with not an ounce of juice. His mantle gave him magic strength speed and endurance. With that one example we know hes wrong. so its nore. I dont think you can just take the mantle once a person has it or once mab realized slate betrayed her she could have yanked it back, it didn't happen and the story continued. you might say she was distracted but at the end she let slate keep the mantle until Harry was ready to take it up. I think "mantle" is just a term JB is using to discuss the kind of power his characters possess. Its not something that can be slipped off and on, or is easily tradeable. Which begs the question why is Aurora even dead. Last time I checked it wasnt halloween when they duked it out. The only time immortals can die is halloween. So why is she dead.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: PirateJack on June 21, 2014, 10:45:37 PM
I think i have spoilers i here and I dont know how to do that thing so dont read if you dont want to know stuff

This whole mantle thing has really bent the dresden world. We have the new knight of the cross saying its just the person but he doesnt feel pain. We have mantles dropping left and right in the last two books. I mean really is mab a diety or is she just some gal who became mab. Maybe we got this whole mantle thing messed up or JB messed up with bringing it in. It has to be more then just "in your head" the jewish knight is wrong. one slate was  drug addict with not an ounce of juice. His mantle gave him magic strength speed and endurance. With that one example we know hes wrong. so its nore. I dont think you can just take the mantle once a person has it or once mab realized slate betrayed her she could have yanked it back, it didn't happen and the story continued. you might say she was distracted but at the end she let slate keep the mantle until Harry was ready to take it up. I think "mantle" is just a term JB is using to discuss the kind of power his characters possess. Its not something that can be slipped off and on, or is easily tradeable. Which begs the question why is Aurora even dead. Last time I checked it wasnt halloween when they duked it out. The only time immortals can die is halloween. So why is she dead.

Lloyd Slate kept the Winter Knight mantle because you have to die to lose it; that's the impression I got from it at least. Aurora died because Harry had her stabbed to death on the Stone Table, which was specifically designed by the Faerie Queens to be able to kill Immortals.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Belial666 on June 21, 2014, 11:17:13 PM
No, Harry specifically stabbed Aurora before she could reach the stone table and held her pinned to prevent her from reaching it while she died. IF she had died on it, there would be some Ice Age - sized problems to solve.


It's just that Harry is a) a Starborn, b) used Cold Iron and c) many of his cases happen around Halloween anyway.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Cadd on June 21, 2014, 11:54:42 PM
Bob describes the battlefield around the Stone Table as a conjunction of the model "place in space", like Halloween is of the model "place in time". This is where Aurora was killed, so she (and any other Immortal killed there) is D-E-D dead.

I don't for a second think that killing the Knight is the only way to remove that particular Mantle. There's been too many hints to the contrary, and Mab has (and had) everything to gain by letting Harry think that's the only way. It's probably ridiculously difficult and most likely requires a conjunction, but I doubt killing is the only way.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: potestas on June 22, 2014, 01:40:06 AM
No, Harry specifically stabbed Aurora before she could reach the stone table and held her pinned to prevent her from reaching it while she died. IF she had died on it, there would be some Ice Age - sized problems to solve.


It's just that Harry is a) a Starborn, b) used Cold Iron and c) many of his cases happen around Halloween anyway.

too many assumptions starborn is in reference to outsiders so i doubt that was how he managed it, we don't know if it was halloween JB would have mentioned it but didnt, he probably hadent even thought of the concept at the time of winter knight. so we have a problem. a mortal wizard..and a not so good one. killed an immortal.I think we give JB too much credit.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: PirateJack on June 22, 2014, 01:50:38 AM
Found the quote!

Quote from: Cold Days
“Maeve’s an immortal, Harry. One of the least of the immortals, maybe, but immortal all the same. Chop her up if you want to. Burn her. Scatter her ashes to the winds. But it won’t kill her. She’ll be back. Maybe in months, maybe years, but you can’t just kill her. She’s the Winter Lady.”
I frowned. “ Huh? I killed the Summer Lady just fine.”
Bob made a frustrated sound. “Yeah, but that was because you were in the right place to do it .”
“How’s that?”
“Mab and Titania created that place specifically to be a killing ground for immortals, a place where balances of power are supposed to change. They’ve got to have a location like that for the important fights—otherwise nothing really gets decided. It’s a waste of everyone’s time and cannon fodder.”
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: potestas on June 22, 2014, 07:24:45 PM
Found the quote!

so at least it fits. nicely done.

but it begs a follow up question. If mab can just decide when to create situations to end an immortal especially one under her "control" why would she need to wait for halloween? Why did she need harry to do it? espcially since it wasn't harry that did it anyway, just one of harrys weapons.(murph). This is what I mean when i wrote in another thread that a writers work is mostly contrivance, its just how well he hides it that makes his writing good or bad. the summer lady was killed by harry because JB said she was killed by Harry. Many books later we get a reason that fits the current story that justifies all the trouble JB put Harry threw to make a story called "cold Days" and doesnt invaladate all the crap JB put Harry threw in Summer Knight.
Title: Re: Walking Conjunctions...
Post by: Cadd on June 22, 2014, 08:29:45 PM
I don't think Mab can create the battleground on her own. I think it really needs her and Titania both gearing up for battle to create it.

Remember - it's not the Table that's the conjunction in this case, but the Battleground around it.
(The table might also be a conjunction of a sorts, but I think it would have been a really, really bad idea to kill Maeve on it - might actually spread the contagion rather than remove it...)