This idea that Molly was part Fae prior to becoming the Winter Lady is interesting but it also begs the question, it is possible that a human, wizard or not, can become a Fae. The last few changes in the mantle have been to changelings, but that's not to say that under the right conditions a human could become a fae. And when did Cold Days take place? Halloween, a major conjecture when immortal beings can gain and lose power, die or come into being.
And perhaps other conjectures, more minor than Halloween, had been played. Molly's abduction to Artics Tor, as well as her use of fear ind magic forged a link to Winter and her training by Lea, in which one aspect was using misdirection to defeat her foes, made her able to accept such a power, on the right day.
Quote5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. :)
On a related topic, any theories on why the fey hate 'cold iron'? There's an explanation in a novel I'll look up-- something about having ties only to the earth and not the other elements. Sounds muddled, but it made sense when I read it. (Definitely must go look it up.)
Well, strictly speaking, in legend the faeries did not like iron of any sort--not just cold-forged, but /any/ iron or iron compound, including steel. Common ways to use this to your advantage included driving nails into the threshold to keep faeries from crossing it, or hanging a horseshoe above the door "for luck"--also to keep out unwelcome faeries.
The deepest reasons for Faeries disliking steel are rooted in the conflict of nature versus civilization, wilderness versus farmland. Hunter-gatherer cultures (generally speaking) did not have the same advanced metalworking capabilities of agricultural societies. Iron was used in /everything/ you needed to run a farm. You used an iron plow, iron was used in building, iron was used in harness and tack, to make tools, to make weapons--everything.
Iron is a metal uniquely symbolic of mankind (or personkind if you're the PC sort), and is used by nothing else in the same way. Many baneful creatures of folklore and legend loathed the kiss of cold iron (or cold steel) and some folklore holds that the presence of iron could keep a witch from casting baneful magic at a household or individual. Folklore from the late middle ages draws upon the image of the Crucifixion to provide substances baneful to creatures of darkness--the wood of the cross, which could be used to, among other things, stake vampires, and the nails that
pierced the Savior's hands and feet (wrists and ankles, technically) which became a bane to mischievious or malign spirits of nature.
Even in today's society, which draws further and further away from the 'natural' state at a geometric pace, iron is THE single most commonly used and available metal in the world. We use it for darn near everything, in one amount or another. Iron is the substance whose presence allowed us to develop from more primitive, dangerous cultures into larger and relatively safe ones. It's the soul of civilization, of bringing humanity's order to
the living chaos of nature.
Naturally no faerie worth the name would like it.
Jim
You've said on multiple occasions that Mab and all Sidhe got the way they are through a process like former dewdrop faerie Toot-Toot's growth.
You've also said in the books and in interviews that all Fae have mortal origins (mostly in context of changelings).
Could you please reconcile these two apparently contradictory ideas?
I thought the Fae level of power was directly related on some extent to who knew about your or those under you? IIRC Toot-toot is a great example of this. Is it possible that he would be able to ascend to the ranks of the High Fae if he accumulates enough followers or renown?
On the other hand, it is hard to imagine dew-drop fairies procreating with mortals. Especially the extremely tiny one that guided Harry to Maeve in Summer Knight. And Jim has commented over and over that Mab and all the Sidhe come from origins like Toot’s. Confusing.
Is it possible that they cannot, but maybe the spawn of certain lesser fae start as dew drop? or maybe even all fae?
Maybe even if Sarissa had chosen fae she would have been started at dew drop, but grew quickly due to being mabs daughter and an increase in responsibility or influence or Mountain Dew or what ever makes them grow in power and stature?
My interpretation: Toot is getting bigger because he is taking on responsibility (some WoJ's use the term influence, others say "taking action"). Part of this responsibility does mean that he is taking authority over some other dew-drop fairies, but he is also taking on responsibility in more ways than just leading the Guard. For example, he has started associating this role as having certain duties to Harry, and now to Winter as well.
The responsibility thing is key in my aforementioned “Mantle Theory” thoughts as well.
On the other hand, I am quite confused about one detail (I mentioned being confused about some details in the OP).
On the one hand, we have multiple references to the Sidhe and Faeries coming from mortal origins. Jim has said “All the fae are part mortal. There is some bit of mortal in every single one of the fae.” Mother Summer discussed with Harry about how “we conceive our children with mortals.” Mab says she was mortal once, and Jim has talked about her having been a mortal.
On the other hand, it is hard to imagine dew-drop fairies procreating with mortals. Especially the extremely tiny one that guided Harry to Maeve in Summer Knight. And Jim has commented over and over that Mab and all the Sidhe come from origins like Toot’s. Confusing.
You've said on multiple occasions that Mab and all Sidhe got the way they are through a process like former dewdrop faerie Toot-Toot's growth.
You've also said in the books and in interviews that all Fae have mortal origins (mostly in context of changelings).
Could you please reconcile these two apparently contradictory ideas?
In The Midsummer's Night's Dream, the Fae simply snatched babies or young children from their cradles and raised them up to become Fae. That was what the dispute Titania and Oberon had, over such a child..
Didn't Lea also say something to Michael about wanting his first born?
I have a couple other things that I desperately want to see Jim asked (things I've already have seen him answer, just not in public forums), but the one thing I don't know, really want an answer to, and suspect he will actually answer is... (leme try to word this in the most concise way possible...)If you could work in there a clarification of the term Sidhe as well. At first it seemed that Sidhe referred to a race of fae (like goblins, trolls, rawheads, etc) that were characterizes as exceptionally beautiful humanoids, and this race happened to be the dominant one in the courts. Later usage seemed to change Sidhe to mean the upper echelons of any fae race.
In The Midsummer's Night's Dream, the Fae simply snatched babies or young children from their cradles and raised them up to become Fae. That was what the dispute Titania and Oberon had, over such a child..Yup, and in a manner of speaking she got her...
Didn't Lea also say something to Michael about wanting his first born?
I never did manage to finish reading that play. I bought the complete works last year explicitly because of it's potential influence over the DF and got a couple few acts in last year before losing interest...In what was a remarkably logical (and thus out of character) statement from my high school english teacher, she pointed out that Shakespears plays were meant to be viewed, not read, and so the best way to experience them was to actually watch a production of them. I hate reading scripts (the feel so empty, for obvious reasons) so would much prefer to watch a good production of them. Couldnt point you to one that is particularly faithful though.
I never did manage to finish reading that play. I bought the complete works last year explicitly because of it's potential influence over the DF and got a couple few acts in last year before losing interest...Watch it on DVD.. There are at least two versions out there.
If you could work in there a clarification of the term Sidhe as well. At first it seemed that Sidhe referred to a race of fae (like goblins, trolls, rawheads, etc) that were characterizes as exceptionally beautiful humanoids, and this race happened to be the dominant one in the courts. Later usage seemed to change Sidhe to mean the upper echelons of any fae race.
Toot-Toot
2009 Lexington signing (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11734.msg504484.html#msg504484):
Q: How big will Toot get?
A: Depends on how much influence he has in the world. That’s how the sidhe gain their size and power. Mab wasn’t always as big as she is now.
2010 Bitten by Books Q&A (http://bittenbybooks.com/?p=22804):
#150 Is Toot-toot’s increase in size due to his actions, or the title and followers he has acquired doing Harry’s bidding?”
It’s due to /Harry’s/ actions, mostly. Toot done hitched his star to Harry’s wagon. As a result, he’s taken actions he never would have taken on his own, some of which had major consequences. Toot has effectively become a much more powerful being than he was as an independent dewdrop faerie. The physical growth is a reflection of that fact.
I mean gosh, where do you think the Sidhe came from in the first place? :D
2009 Kansas City Q&A (http://www.archive.org/details/JimButcherTurnCoat) @41:45
With all the things Toot Toot and the Za Lord's guard have done that made a difference, and with Toot getting bigger, is that going to upset the balance in the Summer court?
The answer is no, because they are not Summer anyway, they are wildfae. And everybody over in summer is going to blame Harry for everything they do. They regard them as a tool and Harry is the guy holding it. Harry would tell you that he's probably the tool but... Anyway Toot Toot's been growing because that's where the Sidhe came from to begin with. They weren't always all tall and glamorous, they kind of got that way.
Q: How big will Toot get?But that implies that Mab may have been like Toot once.. Which contradicts her saying that she was once mortal.. Or was he speaking strictly metaphorically?
A: Depends on how much influence he has in the world. That’s how the sidhe gain their size and power. Mab wasn’t always as big as she is now.
5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...The Erlking did the darkhallow thing?
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. :)
The Erlking did the darkhallow thing?The Erlking did gain much of his power through an assention ritual. Not necessasarily the specific assention ritual known as the Dark Hallow.
But that implies that Mab may have been like Toot once.. Which contradicts her saying that she was once mortal.. Or was he speaking strictly metaphorically?
The Erlking did the darkhallow thing?Or something like it... looks like aShorty21 beat me to it.
The Erlking did gain much of his power through an assention ritual. Not necessasarily the specific assention ritual known as the Dark Hallow.May not have been a mass ritual like that at all. I figured that WOJ was more referring to the fact that he also took the power of a bunch of spirits, but more of an accumulation over time. We know the guy has a yearly Hunt on Halloween. Give him enough success at that and he would eventually reach critical mass. Cowl was just trying to take a shortcut and do it all at once.
May not have been a mass ritual like that at all. I figured that WOJ was more referring to the fact that he also took the power of a bunch of spirits, but more of an accumulation over time. We know the guy has a yearly Hunt on Halloween. Give him enough success at that and he would eventually reach critical mass. Cowl was just trying to take a shortcut and do it all at once.I could go either way on the "over time" or "all at once". I doubt that he started leading the Wild Hunt until after he became the Earlking though.
May not have been a mass ritual like that at all. I figured that WOJ was more referring to the fact that he also took the power of a bunch of spirits, but more of an accumulation over time. We know the guy has a yearly Hunt on Halloween. Give him enough success at that and he would eventually reach critical mass. Cowl was just trying to take a shortcut and do it all at once.
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
Mira – DVD? Blah, go to an outdoor theater!Oh, but I love the old 1930's movie version with ten year old Mickey Rooney as Puck! The altered a little of it, but the story is still the same. Oh and the special effects for the time are really amazing. Otherwise yeah on stage version is also good..
Serack – if you are in the northern hemisphere and therefore approaching summer – there is usually some theater group or company somewhere doing a Midsummer’s Night’s Dream… pretty popular summer time fair.
Meh, in my mind, the most likely source of dew drop fairies is spontaneous generation from literal dew drops and such... Possibly catalyzed by some spark of mortal imagination or some such.That was my interpretation as well. You might also want to incorporate (this information (http://www.evilhat.com/home/paranet-neverglades-peek/)) into your theory. It's one of the Paranet Papers, and it deals with a supposed Fountain of Youth in Florida connected to Summer. Billy mentions "ambient magic" in the area. I could certainly see that ambient magic playing a role similar to radiation mutating the susceptible locals. The spontaneous generation/mutation theory also makes the spider fae from TC more palatable in my mind as well.
Is it possible that they cannot, but maybe the spawn of certain lesser fae start as dew drop? or maybe even all fae?
Maybe even if Sarissa had chosen fae she would have been started at dew drop, but grew quickly due to being mabs daughter and an increase in responsibility or influence or Mountain Dew or what ever makes them grow in power and stature?
If the Fae are largely accounted for as having been mortal at one point, we have Namshiel in SmF stating that he watched as Harry's "kind" crawled from the muck. While he may have been lying and/or deceptive in that instance, with the chance that he's telling the truth... perhaps the Sidhe and/or Dewdrop faeries ultimately formed from the same substance as well. The legends regarding the Fae's emergence often give no time or reference frame to humanity's emergence, to my knowledge. It would seem to make the most sense to take the one link of commonality that we know they have in the DF lore, via Jim, and work backwards from that, right?I'm confused. We have that angels are older than humanity, but as far as I know we don't have a time link to the origins of fae, do we? Unless we say fae must have come along after humanity I suppose. Is that what you're getting at?
And a voice, a very deep, resonant voice, said, “Be thou gone from this place, creature. My quarrel is not with thee.”
Magog answered with a howl and spat out words in a language I did not understand.
“Be that as it may, Elder One,” the huge voice said, gently and with respect, “I also have a duty from which I may not waver. We need not be at odds this night. Depart in peace, Elder One, with your beast of burden.”
Magog snarled again in that foreign tongue.
The deep voice hardened. “I seek no quarrel with thee, Fallen One. I pray thee, do not mistake peaceable intention for weakness. I do not fear thee. Begone, or I will smite thee down.”
I'm confused. We have that angels are older than humanity, but as far as I know we don't have a time link to the origins of fae, do we? Unless we say fae must have come along after humanity I suppose. Is that what you're getting at?
Also, we have Eldest Gruff in SmF with this dealing with the age of the Fallen:
Besides Namshiel, I want to say that Lash mentions a couple of things about how ancient angels are, but I'd have to search pretty heavy to find them.
Nice theory Serack. I like it.
Edit: Nice theory, Serack. However, I have a question regarding it.
If the Fae are largely accounted for as having been mortal at one point, we have Namshiel in SmF stating that he watched as Harry's "kind" crawled from the muck. While he may have been lying and/or deceptive in that instance, with the chance that he's telling the truth... perhaps the Sidhe and/or Dewdrop faeries ultimately formed from the same substance as well. The legends regarding the Fae's emergence often give no time or reference frame to humanity's emergence, to my knowledge. It would seem to make the most sense to take the one link of commonality that we know they have in the DF lore, via Jim, and work backwards from that, right?
Oh, but I love the old 1930's movie version with ten year old Mickey Rooney as Puck! The altered a little of it, but the story is still the same. Oh and the special effects for the time are really amazing. Otherwise yeah on stage version is also good..
As with most of the things I have ever posted, I feel like this is more a gathering of information than a theory, with the exceptions of a few minor conclusions at the end, and the stuff I said in the 1st reply.
The one link I can easily cite is that Jim has said that every single Fae has a bit of mortal in them... I'm not confident I understand what you are trying to work backwards towards from there though...
TCF and I are working together to do a major update to the WoJ compilation, and over the course of this work, several interesting WoJ's are coming forefront to my attention. Two interesting ones that in some ways seem to be contradictory in my mind, and in other ways build off each other in interesting ways are:(click to show/hide)
And here is another, older WoJ that is also pertinent:(click to show/hide)
What does this mean, and how does it apply to the origins of the Fae? Welllll, in terms of "the cosmic forces of the universe" they could be considered beings who "don't change" yet, apparently Mortal, Free Will driven choices can determine their prominence in reality, to the point of altering which forces in a particular version of reality hold sway over that reality...
Now for the actual theorizing... This is dipping into my "Mantle Theory" ideas, something that I'm working hard to make a major post about in the next month or so.
So what if some of these choices made by those with free will that cause certain cosmic powers to come to prominence in reality also involve taking on some of the aspects, powers and responsibilities of these cosmic powers/entities. And one of the flavors of how this could have happened in the past, could have involved changing some of these pivotal mortals into Sidhe.
Now for another what-if, which IMO is not as pivotal but is a deliberate nod to some of what Orbweaver seems to be looking towards. What if there was another ancient human-like race hewn from the muck of Earth in parallel with the human race. This hypothetical race also possessed free will, and in making some of these reality deterministic choices they were the ones that morphed into the Sidhe and took on those roles and responsibilities.
In my opinion, this last what-if adds some unnecessary but interesting complexity to the DF back-story. I prefer to stick with the Sidhe originally being humans, but it certainly is a valid hypothesis.
Edit: I think I will be splicing some of these thoughts into the 1st reply.
Ok. You're stating that these two WOJ's seem to be pointing to the idea that Free Willed Choice is what determines who has control of a particular portion of reality, correct?
I am not certain this premise is correct, as there is also a WOJ that Ferrovax once held dominion over certain aspects of creation. Why that changed, how he got it, whether that covers all aspects in all of creation or just some of it, or if those aspects are still around is pure speculation at this point. I do not think there is any evidence pointing to Ferrovax having had Free Will itself, is there?
6. ferrovax - is this because he's the OLDEST dragon? (i thought it was an empty boast) or because he's a dragon?
Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast. It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos. He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment. He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession. There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.
Regardless of big D or little d, dragons almost universally resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world.
There may be an alternate explanation involving the same entity that supports the premise, though. It is stated that Dragons almost universally resent humanity for how they changed/altered things. (I'm terrible at locating quotes, but I'm hoping someone else might be able to dig them up).what same entity, which premise...
That's sort of what I was getting at, yes.
Well - I never saw that one... will have to keep it in mind. Didn't Rooney just past this year?He died at the end of last month..
OTOH, her walking stick probably represents an aspect of her authority and power, and thus while wielded with a mortal will, that portion of her cosmic force is in some ways more directly influencing events on the ground as you might say.Which makes you wonder, were mortals meant to wield such power? It has been theorized that the "Blackstaff" is Granny Winter's walking stick. It is wielded by Eb, a wizard of complete integrity, trusted not to abuse such power.. But isn't wielding it at all an abuse, since it was not meant for mortal hands? Things like sending a satellite crashing down on Ortega's head.... Was that something that Eb could have down unaided? Is he that powerful? Or was he aided by the Blackstaff, and did he go too far, no matter how good his motives?
Which makes you wonder, were mortals meant to wield such power? It has been theorized that the "Blackstaff" is Granny Winter's walking stick. It is wielded by Eb, a wizard of complete integrity, trusted not to abuse such power.. But isn't wielding it at all an abuse, since it was not meant for mortal hands? Things like sending a satellite crashing down on Ortega's head.... Was that something that Eb could have down unaided? Is he that powerful? Or was he aided by the Blackstaff, and did he go too far, no matter how good his motives?
I think that the WC using a team work spell probably would have been able to pull down that satellite, but I would imagine the reason for the staff is so that one person can work alone and the rest have plausible deniability or whatever.That is not what I was trying to ask.. The stick belonged to an immortal power, should it even be wielded by a human, even a powerful wizard one.
As far as doing too much or going to far as Eb is concerned he is the black staff which iirc a position designed to cast aside all rules, regulations, and morals. The point of the position is to do what is necessary to complete the objectives that have best outcome for Humanity/Eb/WC. It does seem that weilding the staff does have consequences. In Ch we see black veins in Ebs are when he connects to the staff that seem to spread or pulse with the taking of souls.
That is not what I was trying to ask.. The stick belonged to an immortal power, should it even be wielded by a human, even a powerful wizard one.
As far as doing too much or going to far as Eb is concerned he is the black staff which iirc a position designed to cast aside all rules, regulations, and morals. The point of the position is to do what is necessary to complete the objectives that have best outcome for Humanity/Eb/WC. It does seem that wielding the staff does have consequences. In Ch we see black veins in Ebs are when he connects to the staff that seem to spread or pulse with the taking of souls.I would argue the exact opposite: that the position of Blackstaff exists specifically to preserve the rules and morals, that it exists to protect the Spirit of the Laws from their Letter, so that legalese shenanigans cant be used to sidestep the protections that the Laws were intended to provide. And this is the point I think Harry missed in the books: If you have one License to Kill, you dont give it to the cold-blooded murderer, you give it to the person you trust most to act responsibly with it. Harry jumped straight to the assumption that McCoy was a political stooge of the Council rather than, in some ways, its conscience.
I kind of purposely avoided that question because that's too much of a morals question. As far as the staff is concerned Mortals have to contend with many different powerful beings that they have no purpose encountering and no chance at standing up too (Loupe Garu) Maybe the stick levels the playing field for humans? If thats the case why not use it rather than hope/believe that someone else will save/help you out.Is it a moral question, or just one of whether there will be eventual Fallout for using a power intended for beings that cannot be killed? Similar to how Harry has been repeatedly cautions against tapping the Ley Line of Demonreach (Which I personally think he will not be able to safely do until HE is the Blackstaff)
I would argue the exact opposite: that the position of Blackstaff exists specifically to preserve the rules and morals, that it exists to protect the Spirit of the Laws from their Letter, so that legalese shenanigans cant be used to sidestep the protections that the Laws were intended to provide. And this is the point I think Harry missed in the books: If you have one License to Kill, you dont give it to the cold-blooded murderer, you give it to the person you trust most to act responsibly with it. Harry jumped straight to the assumption that McCoy was a political stooge of the Council rather than, in some ways, its conscience.
Is it a moral question, or just one of whether there will be eventual Fallout for using a power intended for beings that cannot be killed? Similar to how Harry has been repeatedly cautions against tapping the Ley Line of Demonreach (Which I personally think he will not be able to safely do until HE is the Blackstaff)
I read it as a moral question, it could be a question of fallout. One of the fallout's I noted earlier was the black veins which will probably kill/corupt Eb when they get to his heart.Oh, I read those veins as sucking the black magic taint out of him, so that it couldnt accumulate and warp his soul.
The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe. But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.
Which makes you wonder, were mortals meant to wield such power? It has been theorized that the "Blackstaff" is Granny Winter's walking stick. It is wielded by Eb, a wizard of complete integrity, trusted not to abuse such power.. But isn't wielding it at all an abuse, since it was not meant for mortal hands? Things like sending a satellite crashing down on Ortega's head.... Was that something that Eb could have down unaided? Is he that powerful? Or was he aided by the Blackstaff, and did he go too far, no matter how good his motives?
Oh, I read those veins as sucking the black magic taint out of him, so that it couldnt accumulate and warp his soul.I agree with this interpretation.
Quotefrom: lt_murgen on October 14, 2013, 05:52:49 AM]
Since favors are essentially Fae currency, it stands to reason that something must exist to keep the fae courts from accruing too much favor for the sake of balance. Thus the wyld fae could be the balance agent. Some go to one court or the other and ask for a favor, thus making a 'deposit' into their power base. Others are needed, thus making a withdrawl (the courts now owe them something).
The bigger question is, where do wyldfae, particularly the wee folk, come from?
In the beginning, the Big Bang produced not one, but multiple Universes. Binding these Universes together is a tenuous region of magic we know as the NeverNever. As mortal lives evolved from within each universe, the magic of the NeverNever gave birth to tiny beings. Creatures made of pure magical energies.
In some worlds, the barrier between them and the NeverNever became thin and magic leaked out, infusing some mortals with its power. In time, the tiny beings of the NeverNever also found ways of entering the Mortal world. It is through interactions between these Fae/Pixies/Little Folk and mortals that both became stronger, more powerful.
In time, many of these magical creatures began adapting themselves to the mortal world, becoming more human or animalistic in appearance and form. Even to the point of being able to crossbreed with mortals. Those are the ones who gained the most power, the ones known a Sidhe as well as other similar beings.
Like Mortals, evolved beings of magic began to organize into societies, Courts as they are called. But many of these beings did not fit into these societies and remained Wyld, solitary or tribal but not belonging to any larger Court.
The ones that adapted the least, that remained closer to the original, pre-evolutionary form, are the ones like Toot Toot. However, the more interaction even these little ones have with mortals, the more like mortals they become.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 06:33:45 AM by Tami Seven »
I would argue the exact opposite: that the position of Blackstaff exists specifically to preserve the rules and morals, that it exists to protect the Spirit of the Laws from their Letter, so that legalese shenanigans cant be used to sidestep the protections that the Laws were intended to provide. And this is the point I think Harry missed in the books: If you have one License to Kill, you dont give it to the cold-blooded murderer, you give it to the person you trust most to act responsibly with it. Harry jumped straight to the assumption that McCoy was a political stooge of the Council rather than, in some ways, its conscience.I was not thinking of the "morality" of using the Blackstaff, rather the consequences to the user.
Jim has set up the Blackstaff as essentially a mind shield to protect from the consequences of performing black magic, and has reinforced that this is it's mechanism when used by a mortal in many many WoJs.This gets at some of what I was asking.. But you bring up another very important question... Is wielding the Black Staff, black magic? If the theory is correct that the Black Staff is Mother Winter's walking stick, did she wield black magic with it? Or for her, was it merely a walking stick? Or did she use it like Nanny McPhee? So if she did, and it is for black magic use, does this make Winter evil? Or in proper hands is black magic not so bad a thing?
The avoiding the consequenses part is the only reason why I hesitate to say that wielding it can't be an abuse as long as it is a Mortal's free will that is doing the acutal wielding. To me the actual question of interest is, "Will wielding the power result in becoming an immortal, and losing your free will all together?"
Just a WAG here but what if Mother Winter was the "Blackstaff" for the supernatural community. Keeping everyone in balance to make sure that out stayed out and no one inside got too uppity?Perhaps, but was she a wielder of black magic? Is wielding black magic different for immortals than it is for mortals?
Perhaps, but was she a wielder of black magic? Is wielding black magic different for immortals than it is for mortals?
Perhaps, but was she a wielder of black magic? Is wielding black magic different for immortals than it is for mortals?Does Fae magic have a black side? What would constitute black magic for Fae? For Wizards we say that mid manipulation is black (mab did to harry), Killing humans is black magic (dont have an example from the book, but I am sure it has happened).
Does Fae magic have a black side? What would constitute black magic for Fae? For Wizards we say that mid manipulation is black (mab did to harry), Killing humans is black magic (dont have an example from the book, but I am sure it has happened).I dont think so because a)the primary consequences of black magic are affects on ones soul, and Fae dont have them, and B) we've seen do all kinds of things that would be Black Magic (forced transformation of people into animals, mind reading, killing, compulsions, etc).
Does Fae magic have a black side? What would constitute black magic for Fae? For Wizards we say that mid manipulation is black (mab did to harry), Killing humans is black magic (dont have an example from the book, but I am sure it has happened).That kind of fits old Mother Winter don't you think? Or rather what we picture black magic as being, but in her hands is it evil? Harry used to practically wet his pants anytime he had to deal with Mab.. He considered her evil along with her other titles like the Queen of Darkness. However we are now seeing that the picture is much more complicated. So is Mab really evil or is she a powerful Fae with a nasty job that has to be done.. Defending the Outer Gates against the Outside ain't beanbag.. ::)
I think this is closer to the right questions. In chosing black magic, black magic becomes more in your nature. In some ways it seems that it effects nature too. The choices made in Fae heritage/antiquity apparently already changed them to the point that their natures are more set in stone and less likely to change anyways, so no worrying about corruption. They are already bloodthirsty monsters in many cases...
That kind of fits old Mother Winter don't you think? Or rather what we picture black magic as being, but in her hands is it evil? Harry used to practically wet his pants anytime he had to deal with Mab.. He considered her evil along with her other titles like the Queen of Darkness. However we are now seeing that the picture is much more complicated. So is Mab really evil or is she a powerful Fae with a nasty job that has to be done.. Defending the Outer Gates against the Outside ain't beanbag.. ::)Its a matter of some debate. Personally I think she is very much a vicious Evil bitch, just a vicious Evil bitch that has had her Evil channeled into a Job that needs doing.
Its a matter of some debate. Personally I think she is very much a vicious Evil bitch, just a vicious Evil bitch that has had her Evil channeled into a Job that needs doing.It's ok and kinda cool when Darth Vader is on your team.
That kind of fits old Mother Winter don't you think? Or rather what we picture black magic as being, but in her hands is it evil? Harry used to practically wet his pants anytime he had to deal with Mab.. He considered her evil along with her other titles like the Queen of Darkness. However we are now seeing that the picture is much more complicated. So is Mab really evil or is she a powerful Fae with a nasty job that has to be done.. Defending the Outer Gates against the Outside ain't beanbag.. ::)
Sacrifice her best troops? Mab would sacrifice every creature *in* Winter, every one she could bring from Summer, and every single mortal on planet Earth if that's what she thought was appropriate. And she wouldn't even need to add extra sugar to her cup of tea afterwards, much less lose sleep over it.
Titania's stated sole purpose for all her power and dominion equal to Mab's her self is to keep Mab in check. I'm not always happy with all the usage of the terms evil and abuse of power and all that in this thread, but I think we can be assured that Mab is a Monster. With a capital M.That probably a better way to put it, yes. She has power, and that power has purpose. But her definition of that purpose appears to be (by that WOJ) "Keep the Outsiders Outside", which has nothing to do with protecting those that are "Inside" even though that is the beneficial side-effect.
A Monster with a purpose mind you. But...
That probably a better way to put it, yes. She has power, and that power has purpose. But her definition of that purpose appears to be (by that WOJ) "Keep the Outsiders Outside", which has nothing to do with protecting those that are "Inside" even though that is the beneficial side-effect.Yeah, Mab is a monster, but she is our monster... ;D She does what she feels she has to do, even if with a hint of sadness as in killing her own daughter..
We have some seriously interesting conversations going on here!But that is not precisely accurate as Black magic leaves a real, detectable stain that will eventually drive you insane, and it appears there exists an artifact capable of literally sucking this stain out of you before those effects take hold.
One thing, with the discussion of magic as either Black, Gray or White it is my belief that magic is not inherently any of these it is simply magic, the intent with which it is used is what would determine into which category it would fall. So you could have two wizards use the exact same "spell" and it would only be considered B, G or W as to the intent to which is was used.
Perhaps, but was she a wielder of black magic? Is wielding black magic different for immortals than it is for mortals?
I dont think that black magic has any effect on immortals as one of their major traits is that they are unalterable (except by Nemesis), while black magic is something that alters humans. Humans can be altered because we have free will and thus are easily impacted by bad magic.So if this is true, in spite of all the protections from using the Black Staff, Eb is running a risk to himself..
First I'm not sure "who" is the best term. Although Jim does use the term "actual beings" he also throws around terms like "cosmic forces" when describing this stuff (and a lot of his WoJ's seem to use that term specifically for Mother Winter by the way, implying to me that she encompasses more than a "who"). But yah, other than some terminology quibbles (Besides "who" I'd also prefer something other than "control" maybe influence or authority over) that's pretty much my point, and in fact it is almost explicitly stated by the 3rd WoJ.
Second, there is a bit of a chicken and the egg in my theorizing in the form of the question of, "what free will first spun out the initial disposition of cosmic forces". Certainly not Humanity, but something I guess. From that perspective, maybe Fero came from an older, free willed race that predated the formation of Earth itself. Or maybe he is a construct created by something with free will to serve the purposes he did until further free will choices supplanted his significance. (I highly suspect that this whole free will determining the shape of reality and what cosmic forces have preeminence is an iterative process (http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/iterative-process.html))
But yes some of those things you listed are speculation, but not all, and I'd say that using the WoJ's I quoted, my theory causes the rest to be very informed speculation. Don't agree with me? Here's the Fero WoJ. Defend that everything you described as speculation is.
what same entity, which premise...
First I'm not sure "who" is the best term. Although Jim does use the term "actual beings" he also throws around terms like "cosmic forces" when describing this stuff (and a lot of his WoJ's seem to use that term specifically for Mother Winter by the way, implying to me that she encompasses more than a "who"). But yah, other than some terminology quibbles (Besides "who" I'd also prefer something other than "control" maybe influence or authority over) that's pretty much my point, and in fact it is almost explicitly stated by the 3rd WoJ.
Second, there is a bit of a chicken and the egg in my theorizing in the form of the question of, "what free will first spun out the initial disposition of cosmic forces". Certainly not Humanity, but something I guess. From that perspective, maybe Fero came from an older, free willed race that predated the formation of Earth itself. Or maybe he is a construct created by something with free will to serve the purposes he did until further free will choices supplanted his significance. (I highly suspect that this whole free will determining the shape of reality and what cosmic forces have preeminence is an iterative process (http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/iterative-process.html))
But yes some of those things you listed are speculation, but not all, and I'd say that using the WoJ's I quoted, my theory causes the rest to be very informed speculation. Don't agree with me? Here's the Fero WoJ. Defend that everything you described as speculation is.
what same entity, which premise...
But that is not precisely accurate as Black magic leaves a real, detectable stain that will eventually drive you insane, and it appears there exists an artifact capable of literally sucking this stain out of you before those effects take hold.
So if this is true, in spite of all the protections from using the Black Staff, Eb is running a risk to himself..
I don't think it means that, just because it has one effect for mortals doesn't mean it has the same effect for immortals. Perhaps it is an effect of MW's ability to unravel magic, in this case it unravels the taint from mortals?It is possible, but somehow I doubt it. The unraveling that Mother Winter gave Harry came from a piece of knitting that she was doing from yarn that came from her spinning wheel. The symbolism of that was too direct. I just do not see her walking stick having the same power.
It is possible, but somehow I doubt it. The unraveling that Mother Winter gave Harry came from a piece of knitting that she was doing from yarn that came from her spinning wheel. The symbolism of that was too direct. I just do not see her walking stick having the same power.
I'm not trying to say that her staff is specifically the same as the unravelling she gave to Harry, but that her nature as "The Unmaker, The Destroyer" when it interacts with the black magic taint on humans prevents it from having a lasting impression. I don't know, but the WC at least seems to believe its nature protects Eb. Given that he has had it for quite some time and hasn't turned into a deranged lunatic would suggest that they are right.Or it has and that will be just one more surprise that gets sprung on us in the future.. :o
Or it has and that will be just one more surprise that gets sprung on us in the future.. :o
2010 Dragon*Con @ ~1:45
When Eb does his "Laying of the Cattle move" at the major battle near the end of Changes, is that a power of the blackstaff?
The Blackstaff is what keeps that kind of thing from driving him insane and turning him into a giggling villain. Yah you don't go messing with black magic in the Dresden Files, it's very very bad for you. At the same time, Magic is something that happens because you truly believe that when you set out to do it that you should be able to do that sort of thing. That says a few things about Eb that really Harry hasn't run into in any other forum other than right there. Yah Poor guy, He's got a tough job.
Serack, you missed my point.
The WOJ I listed leaves a lot of wiggle room. We don't know which specific aspects of creation were assigned to Ferrovax. We don't know if any of them even still exist, in terms of his having shaped reality on the whole. We don't know how much control he had, or how or why it switched to someone or something else. That's the speculatory part, I'm not stating that Ferrovax having had control was speculation.
Your theory that it passed on to a free-willed being (or beings) may have some merit, particularly given the Dragons' resentment of humanity, but they aren't the only free willed beings around. The third quote regarding Ferrovax is supporting the idea (or premise) that free will can and does shape reality. Humans would have very little capability to change anything, were it not for that.
But there again is the fact that it would only hold true as to the intent of the magic being used! If it was being used in a way that would or could be considered Black then it may leave a stain as you put it, but the same "spell" used in the white wouldn't necessarily do the same. My personal theory is not grounded in just the Dresden Verse btw!
But there again is the fact that it would only hold true as to the intent of the magic being used! If it was being used in a way that would or could be considered Black then it may leave a stain as you put it, but the same "spell" used in the white wouldn't necessarily do the same. My personal theory is not grounded in just the Dresden Verse btw!
Jim has discussed (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,467.msg8751.html#msg8751) that intent is not the only determining factor. In fact, he has layed out in clear terms the importance of the results of your actions.First think that jumps out at me, may pertain to the book after Skin Game.. The one that says that anything that corrupts the mind of the user.. Unless I read that wrong, the Council will really want Harry and Molly's heads now, because as been debated the Winter Mantles do mess with the mind, at the same time supposedly it puts Molly out of their reach, but perhaps not Harry?
I went through a lot of trouble to discuss my understanding of the hows and why's of the consequences of Black Magic here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,39794.0.html). Take a look, and see how it meshes with your thoughts.
First think that jumps out at me, may pertain to the book after Skin Game.. The one that says that anything that corrupts the mind of the user.. Unless I read that wrong, the Council will really want Harry and Molly's heads now, because as been debated the Winter Mantles do mess with the mind, at the same time supposedly it puts Molly out of their reach, but perhaps not Harry?
John: Given the events of Changes through to Cold Days, what's Harry's relationship with the White Council now?
Jim:He doesn't know yet, I don't want to give too much of that away, but uh, goodness, they are not going to be terribly pleased with him. The last wizard that they had that was running around, dying and then coming back again kinda caused them a little bit of trouble. They don't really appreciate that sort of thing too much, so as usual Harry is showing all the signs of being a horrible monster and if you don't know him that's what he looks like. And the White Council, they've never really had any patience for him and I'm sure that they will continue to be their charming and generous selves.
First think that jumps out at me, may pertain to the book after Skin Game.. The one that says that anything that corrupts the mind of the user.. Unless I read that wrong, the Council will really want Harry and Molly's heads now, because as been debated the Winter Mantles do mess with the mind, at the same time supposedly it puts Molly out of their reach, but perhaps not Harry?I think you are saying that the Council would view aquiring the Mantles as a violation of the Laws because the Mantles mess with owner's mind, yes? Im pretty sure that wouldnt apply, because that law isnt a ban on associating with corrupting forces, it's about being a corrupting force, using magic to invade and/or twist another's mind.
I think you are saying that the Council would view aquiring the Mantles as a violation of the Laws because the Mantles mess with owner's mind, yes? Im pretty sure that wouldnt apply, because that law isnt a ban on associating with corrupting forces, it's about being a corrupting force, using magic to invade and/or twist another's mind.
Black Magic is any magic that warps (corrupts) the mind of the magic wielder.WoJ#2By that definition, since we know the mantle of the Winter Knight and supposedly the Winter Lady as well can warp the mind of the holder. So what's to stop the Council from declaring both Harry and Molly warlocks and try to give them the chop? Well, Mab may have something to say. So it isn't what is done to someone else's mind, but what happens to one's own. Which makes sense and why the White Council has an almost zero tolerance once a young man or woman performs black magic, not matter their intentions. They are declared "warlock," their mind corrupted beyond redemption, and given the chop... The Merlin explains it very patiently and a bit condescendingly to Harry at the beginning of Proven Guilty.
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already;I only read the first two pages of this thread before I had to throw this out there.We tend to go for the human, because Mother Summer said the Fae breed with humans...
WoJ has it that every one of the Fae has a little mortal in them. 'Mortal', not 'human'. Perhaps that reconciles the two contradictory WoJs?
I really doubt Harry is the first Council member to become a Knight of one of the Courts. And it certainly would not be considered black magic... black magic is defined by the Laws of Magic, and there's nothing in there about "no having mantles".No, the Laws of Magic define Black Magic, but that doesn't mean Black Magic is defined as what is against the Laws. They could be wrong, they could be not as inclusive as they should be.
No, the Laws of Magic define Black Magic, but that doesn't mean Black Magic is defined as what is against the Laws. They could be wrong, they could be not as inclusive as they should be.
We tend to go for the human, because Mother Summer said the Fae breed with humans...
Yes, but as Maeve/Mab/Lea? [TheCuriousFan, TheCuriousFan, TheCuriousFan, I summon thee!] once said, the Fae copycat the mortal world.Page 326 Cold Days... While yeah, the Fae can present themselves in many forms.. Mother Summer says.
But not all Fae are human form. Some take on the shape of elk, lions, goats (ahem!) et cetera.
I'd headcanon Sidhe=human-form Fae, while Fae is just a general term for the creatures one and all of Faerie.
Wraps up those two contradictory seeming WoJs in one fell swoop too!
She gestured at herself. "We appear as humans, do we not? Most of our folk do--or else they resemble another creature of the mortal world. Hounds. birds, stages, and so forth." "Sure I said. "You are endlessly fascinating to us. We conceive our children with mortals."
By that definition, since we know the mantle of the Winter Knight and supposedly the Winter Lady as well can warp the mind of the holder. So what's to stop the Council from declaring both Harry and Molly warlocks and try to give them the chop? Well, Mab may have something to say. So it isn't what is done to someone else's mind, but what happens to one's own. Which makes sense and why the White Council has an almost zero tolerance once a young man or woman performs black magic, not matter their intentions. They are declared "warlock," their mind corrupted beyond redemption, and given the chop... The Merlin explains it very patiently and a bit condescendingly to Harry at the beginning of Proven Guilty.Wait... Corrupting another's mind is against the Laws of Magic. Having one's own mind corrupted doesn't violate a law. Even if the Mantles twist Harry and Molly into all sorts of crazy, they haven't broken a law until they enter the mind of another without permission. I say there isn't even a gray area to think that simply obtaining the mantle of Winter Knight is a violation of the laws.
I have a couple other things that I desperately want to see Jim asked (things I've already seen him answer, just not in public forums), but the one thing I don't know, really want an answer to, and suspect he will actually answer is... (leme try to word this in the most concise way possible...)Quote from: Question for JimYou've said on multiple occasions that Mab and all Sidhe got the way they are through a process like former dewdrop faerie Toot-Toot's growth.
You've also said in the books and in interviews that all Fae have mortal origins (mostly in context of changelings).
Could you please reconcile these two apparently contradictory ideas?
Oh, ok, now I get what you point out as speculation. It's relevancy is lost on me though.
My theory does not exclude free willed beings causing his power to shift to another being that was already immortal, just that some free willed beings ascended by taking on power like Fero's. It hypothesizes that most of the immortal beings with that kind of power used to be mortal, but explicitly states that there are some that this does not seem to apply to. It also hypothesizes a possible different genesis origin for the being Fero as well.
Serack, on a slightly different tack. I have this inchoate idea. After Hades got married to Persephone, there was a deal that she should spend 6 months with him and 6 months with her mother. I thought maybe it really refers to the splitting of the fae (or nature) into Summer and Winter Courts.