Doesn't the last Starborn predate Mab being in her position though? When was the Last Starborn active, about a thousand years ago? And Mab has been WQ since Hastings, was it? Which is maybe a thousand years ago, but it's also off by 5%. And that assumes that she jumps right into it immediately.it is possible that the last Starborn was a fluke, unplanned, unexpected. By the time the Great Powers realized what they had, it was too late to use it/him.
Ah. here's the other potential additional element I was forgetting:
The Grand Alliance
- The original plan for birthing a starborn was presented by Maggie and Lord Raith to Eb, Arianna, and, it is postulated, representatives of other major supernatural powers. (The meeting Eb alludes to at the end of Changes where Arianna recognised Maggie was his daughter)
- This fell apart partly because of Eb butting heads with Maggie at that meeting (same ref in Changes) and partly, either as a result of that or because one or other of them had always planned it, by Justin and Lord R attempting to subvert the project for their own ends (either separately or together)
- The continued divide-and-conquer approaches of the villains of the piece, most notably the Red Court/White Council war, are because a grand alliance is the thing they fear most, and forming one will be a key element of the BAT.
Doesn't the last Starborn predate Mab being in her position though? When was the Last Starborn active, about a thousand years ago? And Mab has been WQ since Hastings, was it? Which is maybe a thousand years ago, but it's also off by 5%. And that assumes that she jumps right into it immediately.
it is possible that the last Starborn was a fluke, unplanned, unexpected. By the time the Great Powers realized what they had, it was too late to use it/him.
Doesn't the last Starborn predate Mab being in her position though? When was the Last Starborn active, about a thousand years ago? And Mab has been WQ since Hastings, was it? Which is maybe a thousand years ago, but it's also off by 5%. And that assumes that she jumps right into it immediately.
Doesn't the last Starborn predate Mab being in her position though? When was the Last Starborn active, about a thousand years ago? And Mab has been WQ since Hastings, was it? Which is maybe a thousand years ago, but it's also off by 5%. And that assumes that she jumps right into it immediately.
I like this idea, in general. Not sure why Lord Raith was given more of a role than anyone else.
I do understand why he would get greedy, power hungry, and turn against the others.
Not sure if he was trying to keep Maggie from having a Starborn child, or if he wanted to be the father of her Starborn child.
I'd say that she had to go to someone who was not part of the White Council, and guess that he was the most plausible alternative compared to, say, the Red Court.
I have no strong position on that; my own feeling is that he more likely changed plan when the meeting we heard about in Changes failed, but I do not have anything to argue that from.
Oh, neither; I am positing that he wanted her to have the Starborn child according to the recipe, but to bring it up as a weapon for himself rather than to protect all of reality.
Q: How/when did Harry find out Lea is his godmother? Is Lea Thomas’s godmother, too?
A: Lea was around when Harry was in middle school, although he didn’t know who she was. She was just a lady who sometimes did nice things for him. He found out who she is after he became Justin’s apprentice. Lea is not Thomas’s godmother
You said the Winter, rather, Knights’ mantles change fairly often? How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around. And so….Mab and Maeve, um, **unintelligible**, I leave things here, don’t miss ‘em. I love to drop teases and hints and walk away smiling, but anyway. They don’t change very often at all. The Knights’ mantles change, like, constantly. Most Knights are Knights who pick up a sword for a night. And then they’re done. It’s just some random Joe, who happens to be a decent guy, and it’s like, “Look, magical sword, horrible danger! Do something!”. **unintelligible** Just because you’re a great guy doesn’t mean you’re smart enough to survive an encounter with demons, for example. And we’ll see a bit more of that in the next book, too.
That last part doesn't make sense, only in that apparently the recipe for a Starborn involved a man more like Malcolm. So...when Maggie ran away to find him, LR killed her. Admittedly just as she was giving birth to her Starborn child. Why did LR keep her for 6 years? Why didn't he work with her to make sure she had her Starborn child as per the recipe? Whatever that recipe is. And why did he put her life at risk by having a child with her (someone Maggie's age, there is always a risk that a pregnancy could have complications. Unlikely, but not impossible. )
Personally, I am not 100% convinced that it was really Lord Raith who killed Maggie Sr. Sure, Ebenezer believes it, but then he may well be blinded by his prejudices -- automatically blaming the "drug dealing scum of a boyfriend" for her death. We don't really know recipe is required for birthing a Starborn, but the fact that Elaine (known potential per WoJ) is also an orphan suggests to me that we can't rule out death during childbirth as being one of the ingredients.
1) IMHO it is not impossible that Maggie killed herself deliberately to create a Starborn.
2) It is even possible that the mother needs to die with an entropy curse in order to create a Starborn (HHWB-Entropy curse connection in Blood Rites). Maggie could well have done this to herself.
3) Note also that technically it was Maggie's Death Curse that killed her.
Still, to me this whole planning ahead to produce a Starborn, while I agree that it is a strong probability, has one anomaly -- Thomas. If the UMO Alliance, Lord Raith and the others all planned ahead to create a Starborn...Thomas should never have been born. I love Thomas to death, he's my favorite next to Harry, but his very existence makes no sense.
His existence makes perfect sense. Lord Raith is an Alcoholic, and Maggie Sr is a bottle of Scotch. I'm surprised it took as long as it did.
Lord Raith produces a child once every 20-30 years. He chooses the mothers carefully, for reasons of his own. Feeding and having sex, yes, he does or did that like an alcoholic downing the contents of a liquor store. But that is not the case for reproduction. LR doesn't have accidents, if he did Thomas would have far more half-sibilings than he does.
Unless there is some Biological Limitation on the White courts reproduction. Which is my personal theory, because otherwise there would be a lot more of them.
Consider how many women Thomas has been with just to feed, not to mention Justine. Do you think he takes the time to use 'Protection'? I'm fairly certain that WCV have a way of controlling when and with whom they reproduce.
And I think that they can't, but just have very low birth rates. Either way, I doubt we'll be getting an answer any time soon.
Consider that Lord Raith painted a portrait of every woman who ever gave him a child, male or female. Doesn't that imply a sense of pride or possession, of having chosen the best women to give him children? I don't see him doing it if his children were all accidents and the mothers just random women.
Consider that Lord Raith painted a portrait of every woman who ever gave him a child, male or female. Doesn't that imply a sense of pride or possession, of having chosen the best women to give him children? I don't see him doing it if his children were all accidents and the mothers just random women.
Still, to me this whole planning ahead to produce a Starborn, while I agree that it is a strong probability, has one anomaly -- Thomas. If the UMO Alliance, Lord Raith and the others all planned ahead to create a Starborn...Thomas should never have been born. I love Thomas to death, he's my favorite next to Harry, but his very existence makes no sense.
Unless there is some Biological Limitation on the White courts reproduction. Which is my personal theory, because otherwise there would be a lot more of them.
Consider how many women Thomas has been with just to feed, not to mention Justine. Do you think he takes the time to use 'Protection'?
I see no need for it. Lord R has the self-control not to let it show for thirty years that he's running on empty; he definitely has the self-control not to have kids he doesn't want.
Neuro, when you get a chance, could you add exactly what you mean by the Swiss Army Chainsaw theory?
That last part doesn't make sense, only in that apparently the recipe for a Starborn involved a man more like Malcolm. So...when Maggie ran away to find him, LR killed her. Admittedly just as she was giving birth to her Starborn child. Why did LR keep her for 6 years? Why didn't he work with her to make sure she had her Starborn child as per the recipe?
My admittedly fairly wild preferred theory there is that Maggie's death at the time of childbirth is part of the Starborn recipe and a willing sacrifice on her part. I don't believe that she was naive enough about magic to leave anything he could target an Entropy Curse on if she had to escape his thrall, or that if he just wanted her dead it would hit her at that precisely calibrated a moment and not before.
As for keeping her six years, I propose that he is working with her, in helping identify and bring about the conditions needed for a Starborn.
My admittedly fairly wild preferred theory there is that Maggie's death at the time of childbirth is part of the Starborn recipe and a willing sacrifice on her part. I don't believe that she was naive enough about magic to leave anything he could target an Entropy Curse on if she had to escape his thrall, or that if he just wanted her dead it would hit her at that precisely calibrated a moment and not before.
As for keeping her six years, I propose that he is working with her, in helping identify and bring about the conditions needed for a Starborn.
In BR, there were 3 witches. Two doing the ritual, one close to the target acting to aim it. The details beyond that I'm not sure.three witches but all needed as part of the ritual. Until the last scene when Ex #1 did it all herself, but she was a legitimate practitioner in her own right slinging spells around. But they just needed to chant at the right time, and have a human sacrifice.
Neuro – great stuff and thanks for laying it out all in one place. I think you are spot on in a broad general way and it is only in the details that some of the darts might be off center.She "laid her hand on Mister Ferro's arm, frowning faintly, standing well out of the way" right as things were going to hell when Mavra was about to destroy Amoracchius. The implication was that she was restraining him from getting involved. Ive always been curious which side he would have thrown in on. Im guessing he would have squished Harry and Michael flat, if for no other reason that helping his Host.
I like the idea of Lea being a catalyst or at least being involved in the early stages. Her stature in the DV seems overlooked sometimes by us readers. Besides what you have mentioned, I recall that at the party during some tense moment (book is not handy right now) Lea and Ferro even held hands? Or she grabbed his arm I think. Considering WoJs about his importance and power, it speaks volumes that he did not reject her and considered her someone worthy of his company.
Ok, all laid out there I disagree with a lot less of this theory than I thought I would. While I doubt they often sit down for afternoon tea, I have no problem with both Uriel and Odin working towards a common goal and with a certain amount of accommodation if not active conspiracy.
My main contention is in characterizing Mab as (knowing/willing) part of that alliance. Correct me if Im wrong, but the only evidence you site that she is working with them is that bit from bob in GS. But Bob's theory that they were working together was purely based on the fact that there was an unusually long winter indicating that she was still in town. Which we later learned was because Uriel had, apparently against her wishes, taken Harry's soul on walkabout, forcing her to sit still on earth and give mouth-to-mouth to a human for months, out of season and at great personal strain. All so he could teach her new pet that he she was mistaken in her belief that she could mold him at her whim. And in this case at least we can be certain that she was not simply misleading him as part of some greater manipulation, since we have a WOJ that she was being entirely Truthful, and just happened to be entirely Wrong. If it were all a collaborative scheme between her and Uriel, that could not have been the case.
Im not saying Mab isn't a Grade A puppetmaster, but I think she's getting handled as much as she is handling Harry. In the Grand scheme she isnt master of the house, she is the big scary Guard Dog at the gate to keep trespassers out; and Titania is the slightly lessscaryviolently aggressive Dog in the house that's there to stop the big scary dog if she gets off her leash.
PS. is it just me or does every thread seem to derail into a White Court discussion lately? I myself derailed the Deidre thread earlier today....
The proposed object of the exercise is for a starborn human (which appears to principally mean, thus far, one with seriously atypical power over/resistance against Outsiders) to have as much access as possible to as many of the various magical power sources as the DF has.
Hence Harry, thus far, is a strong wizard (Maggie's genetics plus lots of exercise); has experienced Hellfire and later been granted soulfire; has some familiarity with necromancy; has faith magic from his faith in what magic is for (lighting up his pentacle); and most recently acquired a Winter mantle. All of which are things he can use more efficiently against Outsiders than almost anyone else because of the starborn-ness.
Still, I don't really see this as a long standing alliance. Because I don't think Uriel and Winter really interact, until we get to a certain point. I think the alliance, if it exists, probably only really came into existence with the party at Bianca's place - and perhaps afterwards, when Lea's infection was apparent. After which, I assume Uriel and Mab got together and realised: Oh shit, the Adversary very nearly fucked the both of us, didn't it?
Hey Neuro great job in putting all these ideas into a very clear and organized format.
1) Even if UMO aren't actually working hand in hand in the traditional sense, the fact that each of them has omniscient-level omniscience, and that they are all presumably working against Outsiders means that they must be "sharing future threads".
2) WoJ:
Not sure how what this brings to bear on the theory, but worth mentioning.
3) We are told (end of SmF) that the only way Uriel could give Harry Soulfire is if Hell broke the rules first. It is not impossible that UMO manipulated the Denarians into making a play for Ivy just so Harry could get Soulfire (and possibly have a first meeting with Demonreach).
You missed a new source: DR and the Warden mantle.
And possibly a small buff from the wild hunt, afterall thomas picked up a LITTLE somethin somethin (enhanced senses maybe? he seems... sharper I guess after DB) and he just joined up. Harry didn't just join it, he led it for a bit. At the behest of santa odin and Herne who pretty much shanghaied him into it. Maybe a slightly tougher buff?
Is there any sort of WOJ on how harry picked up TOOTs true name? Cause toot has saved his bacon a number of times.
That would seem entirely workable to me, but not really functionally distinguishable from sitting down and planning together in terms of how it affects the plot of the books at Harry's level.The functional difference come in when you start assuming a greater level of shared information outside of the specific instances where you have have evidence of collaboration and/or a common interest.
Maybe indeed. I had been thinking, though, that Captain Jack, in GS, motivates Harry by warning him about three of his friends being due to be broken, maimed or killed if he does not go back; this is someone who works for Uriel doing something that attains Uriel's desired end, which Uriel itself cannot do and appears to verbally reprimand him for. I'm positing that, much as part of the point of a Faerie Knight appears to be for Faerie to have an agent who can exercise free will for Faerie ends in ways Faerie themselves cannot, Uriel having mortals working for him derives similar benefit - and Nicodemus maybe counting under the same logic Captain Jack does.When you say counting under the same logic so you mean in the sense of the the Host provides his fallen with a Loophole, or that he is counted as one of Uriel's Minions?
My main contention is in characterizing Mab as (knowing/willing) part of that alliance. Correct me if Im wrong, but the only evidence you site that she is working with them is that bit from bob in GS. But Bob's theory that they were working together was purely based on the fact that there was an unusually long winter indicating that she was still in town.
Which we later learned was because Uriel had, apparently against her wishes, taken Harry's soul on walkabout, forcing her to sit still on earth and give mouth-to-mouth to a human for months, out of season and at great personal strain. All so he could teach her new pet that he she was mistaken in her belief that she could mold him at her whim. And in this case at least we can be certain that she was not simply misleading him as part of some greater manipulation, since we have a WOJ that she was being entirely Truthful, and just happened to be entirely Wrong. If it were all a collaborative scheme between her and Uriel, that could not have been the case.
Without Harry's interference, Corpsetaker was going to take over Molly, aka Faerie Lady Failsafe #2. That is unacceptable, so Harry's actions in GS did serve Mab's interests.
Still, I don't really see this as a long standing alliance. Because I don't think Uriel and Winter really interact, until we get to a certain point. I think the alliance, if it exists, probably only really came into existence with the party at Bianca's place - and perhaps afterwards, when Lea's infection was apparent. After which, I assume Uriel and Mab got together and realised: Oh shit, the Adversary very nearly fucked the both of us, didn't it?
The functional difference come in when you start assuming a greater level of shared information outside of the specific instances where you have have evidence of collaboration and/or a common interest.
Only one has anything close to "omniscient-level omniscience" and in that case JB was very specific to explain that Intellectus is distinct and less than Omniscience.
Odin had, in the myths Im aware of at least, what amounted to a Prophetic vision that has guided his actions (while being hung from the world-tree after sacrificing his Eye), and then had some magical artifacts and minions that kept him apprised of current events by more traditional means. And Mab doesnt have Intellectus, she's just a clever bitch.
When you say counting under the same logic so you mean in the sense of the the Host provides his fallen with a Loophole, or that he is counted as one of Uriel's Minions?
Nice theory, really like it. UMO have definitely worked on this a long time. You can add DR and Herne to the A-Team as well now.
So let's go back to the dinner of future woe. I don't think that there's any evidence that Justin was at the dinner. However, I do agree that Justin figured out the Star Born plan and worked hard to coopt it for himself.
If they are as rare as they seem to be, it was quite a coup for Justin to have Harry AND Elaine under his influence. Lea watched over Harry, I wonder who watched over Elaine?
Anyway, I think that the implication of the evidence surrounding the Dinner points more to some kind of White Council Reform plan. She wanted to change the Council, had not enough support within it and thought she could use outside pressure groups -- The Whites, The Reds, etc. to affect change.
She probably figured that her Father, being somewhat of a renegade himself would be more open to the possibility.
I believe that after Eb didn't cooperate, she started having second thoughts and tried to work free of LR. Perhaps she realized the danger she was putting everyone in (at least according to Luccio).
Maggie may have even made Justin Harry's Godfather, which is why Eb never collected him.
True, I did not connect all the dots up there for what I was thinking, sorry about that.
I am speculatively positing that Demonreach exists in the first place by virtue of Odin advising Merlin that it would be a good idea and how to do it. And that Demonreach and the position of Warden of Demonreach may have been set up the way they were as a place to plug the Swiss Army Chainsaw into.
There was a suggestion a few months ago, and annoyingly I forget whose it was, that the location of the Stone Table in Chicago above Chicago in SK, and the location of Harry's dream of Malcolm in DB, are both echoes of Demonreach. I like that and I can see it fitting with the Team UMO idea - I am pretty convinced Malcolm in DB is an agent of Uriel's.
Perhaps. The impression I have of what the Wild Hunt did for Thomas was that it basically forced him to confront his nature and cleared his head some about stuff he always could have done but was leery of; not seeing any reason it could not have been the sort of buff you describe either, though.
Not that I recall.
One thing I really want to know is whether it is possible for a being with intellectus to deliberately avoid thinking of a specific question in order not to have the answer. I am inclined to think not, and I think that has implications for how much Uriel knows about Harry's likely reaction to their conversations given that Uriel kind of has to be thinking about talking to Harry while actually talking to Harry.Hmm, Can an Angel practice denial? Interesting Question. In a case like Harry's intellectus, Id say its easily possible, all one would have to do is trust their own assumptions. But if Uriel's Intellectus is as broadly emcompassing as I think, and more importantly he is a being that has never NOT had it, then is it even possible for him to make an "assumption"? But if his every possible thought is instantly verified by the Intellectis Akashic Universal Truth, where does his personality and individuality come in? Why is he not simply a personification of the Universe itself? Or is that what his boss is?
If some degree of pooling underlying intelligence is accepted, then information any one team member gets from intellectus is plausibly available to any team member.See thats where you loose me, because you make the leap from "Some degree of information sharing" to "All available information resources are freely available to all member at all times". NOBODY shares information that freely. And in Mab's case at least she is fundamentally incapable of it, because her nature requires an exchange of equal value every time.
I am positing Nicodemus, the host, counting as a minion of Uriel in this context, in a way not directly connected to anything Anduriel is doing. (And in a way he maybe hopes to parlay into sainthood; an incidental but vital role in saving the universe during the BAT by preparing Harry might not be a bad start towards that objective.)Do you see much distinction between Minion and Catspaw? Because to me Minion implies that both parties are knowingly and willingly participating. I could see Nic being Played by Uriel, But Im not as much as a willing subordinate. The Sainthood thing offers a motive for him cooperate when he otherwise probably wouldnt, but I personally took his Sainthood aspirations to be more about Heaven getting a change of Leadership that would have a different set of Chosen. (which would also be scarily cool)
I don't have the text to hand, being in work right now; are you sure of that ? I thought that conversation came just after Harry mentioning that he'd had a long conversation with Bob that isn't in the text verbatim, implicitly about events we've already seen, and that the point I made in the original post about Uriel's reaction to being summoned and how that pushes Harry towards choosing to summon Mab could well be relevant there. I'm not recalling that the excessive winter confirming mab is around in Chicago was in that conversation at all, though I could well be wrong/Yup, I looked it up after reading your post:
That would require a remarkable lack of forethought from interests both of whom have definite connection with Harry's life before then, and both of whom are supposedly to be some combination of superhumanly intelligent and foresighted.
Not a lack of forethought, maybe they just weren't playing attention. Both of them have a lot of balls to juggle.
Michael was 'off the clock',
while Harry was a personal interest of Lea, and Lea might be withholding details from Mab.
Yeah putting it in chicago more than a 1000 years before america is even thought about seems to indicate some long term planning to me as well.
In PG I think it was, Thomas notes he can SENSE the wild hunt coming from afar. He mentions he'd been "different" IIRC since joining up.
And further into WN he is 2nd only to lara who is CENTURIES his senior. That's quite a boost. I always figured the Hunt had a little something to do with it.
Either that or he had something really big going on with the mound-builder civilisations that failed spectacularly, I suppose.
(Nicodemus with his plague habit connected to collapse and death of native American cultures on contact with European diseases ? The Little Ice Age starting when all those Native Americans weren't using fires and in many cases slash-and-char agriculture and ending when the Industrial Revolution started replenishing those greenhouse gases again as an echo of stuff going on in Faerie ? Interesting direction, but not enough ahd data to go on.)
OK, I had forgotten that, and that certainly counts as a boost more than just psychological.
I don't think we have any real evidence to distinguish that from Thomas always having been that good and just going to great lengths to hide it, though. It's pretty clear that he's been doing the "useless party animal" act for a long time to avoid being taken as a threat. (I can see Maggie planning Thomas being as strong a White Court vampire as she could make him, and being born on Valentine's Day seems like it should give him a boost there too.)
What if the Erlking took advantage of an opportunity to go after Thomas in order to give him the choice, hide, flee or join. Getting Thomas to join, meant that the Erlking could influence him in such a way as to give him a power boost.
Then there is the Archive (Not necessarily Ivy), who might also be in on this in her own way. Choosing Thomas to be a Venator meant giving him a pathway to becoming stronger as well.
Of course, Mab seems to think she has rights over, not only Harry but Thomas also. Who knows where that might lead.
Either that or he had something really big going on with the mound-builder civilisations that failed spectacularly, I suppose.
(Nicodemus with his plague habit connected to collapse and death of native American cultures on contact with European diseases ? The Little Ice Age starting when all those Native Americans weren't using fires and in many cases slash-and-char agriculture and ending when the Industrial Revolution started replenishing those greenhouse gases again as an echo of stuff going on in Faerie ? Interesting direction, but not enough ahd data to go on.)
OK, I had forgotten that, and that certainly counts as a boost more than just psychological.
I don't think we have any real evidence to distinguish that from Thomas always having been that good and just going to great lengths to hide it, though. It's pretty clear that he's been doing the "useless party animal" act for a long time to avoid being taken as a threat. (I can see Maggie planning Thomas being as strong a White Court vampire as she could make him, and being born on Valentine's Day seems like it should give him a boost there too.)
Dead Beat
- Incidental observation that feels like it fits in with this model somehow; one thing DB accomplished was to show Harry that necromancy is not inherently evil (Kumori saving the life of random gangster dude) and then give him experience of using it himself in a not inherently evil manner (Sue). One more blade to the Swiss Army chainsaw as needed.
I'm curious as to how Harry's death in Changes fits into the theory. Mortal free will is important, according to the theory- except Harry's death was a result of a compromised Free Will, and neither Uriel nor Mab moved or acted to stop it, despite their intelligence level/foresight. I can understand Uriel not being able to act to prevent it, given that he may not be able to act unless his opponent breaks a rule, but Harry had to answer Mab when she asked him about partaking of the death angel, as she put it, to get out of another deal with her (per Changes). Per your theory, wouldn't she have acted, in some way shape or form, to prevent him from taking his own life even though he gave his word that he wouldn't?
Also, the presence of the parasite within Harry for as long as it was there poses some issues. With it perpetually feeding off of Harry (and, presumably, any / all powerups he received during the time frame in which it was present), coupled with its ability to nearly incapacitate him with headaches (as we see during the opening chapters of SG), you have a really good recipe for a permanently dead starborn swiss army/utility knife.
Not if the knowledge and perspective he can only gain from that walkabout is part and parcel of the training, I would think.
I don't, at this point, have enough handle on what the parasite is to have a strong feel for how it fits with this model. I can buy it being a resurgent Lash operating against the goals of team UMO; I could also, given the ending of GS, speculate that its presence in Harry is somehow essentialled for keeping his body usable while his soul is on walkabout.
Mab did say something at the end of GS about The Quiet One (Uriel) and how he Angered Mab and "Had he been incorrect..", they may be working towards the same goal, but obviously Uriel and Mab have different ideas as to how to achieve them.
Are we sure Harry being Starborn was planned? I don't remember anything specific in the books or WOJ saying that. However, I am sure I am probably wrong considering it is taken as gospel around here. I was thinking that maybe all this hoopla around Harry being starborn isn't because they planned it but because it just happened. Maybe the "key" ingredient is that he was born while his mother was killed by outsider enhanced magic. Not just that she was killed by magic during his birth but that part of the catalyst of his birth was energy from "outside". The reason Starborn are so rare is that outsider magic isn't used on women in the process of delivery very often.
The reason Elaine is a "candidate" is because her mother died during childbirth. Maybe even by magic. She is described as candidate and not a starborn because they don't know if OUTSIDER magic is envolved.
I think from what we have seen of Thomas feeding, it doesn't need to involve intercourse specifically.
Not a lack of forethought, maybe they just weren't playing attention. Both of them have a lot of balls to juggle. Michael was 'off the clock', while Harry was a personal interest of Lea, and Lea might be withholding details from Mab.
Are we sure Harry being Starborn was planned? I don't remember anything specific in the books or WOJ saying that. However, I am sure I am probably wrong considering it is taken as gospel around here.
EDIT: One more thought - I don't think Justin, Papa Raith, and Arianna were trying to create a Starborn, but rather prevent a Starborn. If Harry was the ultimate product of their plan, why did they both try very, very hard to kill him?
As a corollary to that, how about the thought that Lord Raith IS Nemesis (or at least it's primary host in our world). That would go to explain how those associated with him have knowledge to summon HWWB. That could explain why mortal magic doesn't affect him.
Maggie's death curse smothering him might explain why Nemesis is limited in who/what it can influence (no mortals as far as we know, and only not-too-powerful immortals).
That also leads to the incredibly scary thought that he/it might be conning Harry and he/it are actually influencing/controlling Lara, who is currently expanding her power base into mortal politics and the BFS.
That is creepy, and I cannot see a counterargument, though I do not like it at all.
Yeah, that was just something that was tumbling around in my head while I was out with the dog. But, like you said: There's no counter argument.
Of course, it could also be explained by Raith's Hunger being ohmygoddity strong (so strong it simply absorbs ambient magic within a certain radius, or that could be Maggie's smothering curse), and he's freakin' old and has been hording knowledge in case it became useful, and the spell to summon HWWB is a part of it.
Why would she have left a trap door into it? Granted, Eb isn't 100% in on the workings of everything, but given what he's said about it, it's far more likely that since Maggie couldn't reach him, she layered something else on top of his protection. Otherwise, if she could bypass it, she could just kill him.That was explained in woj. What she did was actually far more effective than killing him. It effectively sandbagged the white court and tortured Lord Raith etc. See the woj
That was explained in woj. What she did was actually far more effective than killing him. It effectively sandbagged the white court and tortured Lord Raith etc. See the woj
But she didn't need to have been involved in giving LR his antimagic shield in order for her to have been able to use her death curse to work around it. In fact, Maggie's death curse had no effect of LRs' anti-magic shield, which is like a Tick's carapace. Her Death curse worked like a blanket, smothering Lord Raith from the outside and keeping him from drawing in the life energy he needed to feed upon. Harry described how it worked in BR.The problem is if she was not the one that gave the protection to Lord Raith, and I think he needed a wizard for that which Lord Raith isn't himself, then he already had the protection. Either Margaret gave Lord Raith the protection or she knowingly consorted with someone who was protected by outsiders. She had visited the outer gates, she knew about outsiders.
The problem is if she was not the one that gave the protection to Lord Raith, and I think he needed a wizard for that which Lord Raith isn't himself, then he already had the protection. Either Margaret gave Lord Raith the protection or she knowingly consorted with someone who was protected by outsiders. She had visited the outer gates, she knew about outsiders.
That does not have to be that bad, she could have been on a mission for Lea and Mab directed against outsiders but we know she broke some laws, the outsider one could have been one of them. We just do not know enough about her but we know she did some bad things.
Either way she had studied his protection, she had enough nights for that, so she knew how to work around it even if she had not created it herself which is quite possible.
Not if the knowledge and perspective he can only gain from that walkabout is part and parcel of the training, I would think.
I don't, at this point, have enough handle on what the parasite is to have a strong feel for how it fits with this model. I can buy it being a resurgent Lash operating against the goals of team UMO; I could also, given the ending of GS, speculate that its presence in Harry is somehow essentialled for keeping his body usable while his soul is on walkabout.
So does the much more limited context of Bob's assertion change you theory RE. Mab's involvement?
Yup, I looked it up after reading your post:
the complete conversation:Bob is specifically saying that he only thinks Mabs' involved simply because she is in town, and seems to be specifically saying that IF they are working together its more of a one-time Marvel team-up sort of deal. He goes on to say that in the same way all the players are involved (Fomor, servators, Aristedes) but not that they are all on the same team, just on the same gameboard.(click to show/hide)
Why would she have left a trap door into it?
Granted, Eb isn't 100% in on the workings of everything, but given what he's said about it, it's far more likely that since Maggie couldn't reach him, she layered something else on top of his protection. Otherwise, if she could bypass it, she could just kill him.
Or that LR made the deal with the Outsiders at the time of the first Starborn, and they called in that favor when Maggie was discussing becoming the mother of the next Starborn child.
But she didn't need to have been involved in giving LR his antimagic shield in order for her to have been able to use her death curse to work around it. In fact, Maggie's death curse had no effect of LRs' anti-magic shield, which is like a Tick's carapace. Her Death curse worked like a blanket, smothering Lord Raith from the outside and keeping him from drawing in the life energy he needed to feed upon. Harry described how it worked in BR.
Assuming that LR had had the shield a long time, and that most experienced Wizards either knew about it or had heard rumors about it, and that Maggie either knew about it or heard rumors about it.
As much as I find this UMO theory interesting, I still don't think it answers the questions well enough about Maggie and LR.
That would depend, I suppose, on what Harry actually gained by way of perspective.
If Lash is against one or more of team UMO's goals... why on earth would that shadow have bothered revealing that information to Harry?
So does the much more limited context of Bob's assertion change you theory RE. Mab's involvement?
Because he'd be dead.
Not really; Uriel pushing Harry into Mab's arms in Changes is still there, as is the benefit to Uriel and Mab both of the end of GS.What then would support the idea that she is an active participant getting getting a quid pro quo in terms of unrelated Intell, rather than just another catspaw scenario?
What then would support the idea that she is an active participant getting getting a quid pro quo in terms of unrelated Intell, rather than just another catspaw scenario?
Uriel phrasing his reassurance to Harry in ways which, while literally true, led to a change in Harry's position (viz, Harry believing he can balk Mab's orders if he needs to) which is immediately beneficial to Mab (in that without it, it's been demonstrated, Harry finds living as a monster untenable and arranges own death).I would challenge this part, specifically (the bolded text). For one thing the "did she lie" WOJ clearly (to me) sets Uriel on a higher (Cosmic) tier, one which she apparently does not grasp very well. I think that the Mothers might on that tier and be aware enough for that sort of insight, but not the queens.
As for catspaws... Mab has no free will. Uriel has no free will relevant to tactical details here - the scale at which he has free will is "choose to crash and burn and become a second Morningstar or not". So it seems quite plausible to me that either of them are exactly predictable to the other given a defined initial circumstance; I would not count that as catspaws, exactly, myself, but I can see how it might look like that.
But even so, what she did doesn't require any sort of trap door. Like Harry said, she can just overlap her curse without needing to penetrate his protection. Stop the energy from ever getting to him, rather than stop him from absorbing it, or whatever.
My WAG is that she didn't do anything to Lord Raith. I think this is a hint to us that the hunger demon isn't just a metaphor, it is an actual entity. Maybe not a physical one, but a spiritual one, and that Maggie targeted her curse at the entity and not at Lord Raith. That is how come she was able to stop him from feeding when he can't be targeted. She knew she couldn't do anything to him, but correctly guessed that she could cripple the demon.fwiw he could still use his wampire powers, just not rejuvenate his reserves.
But even so, what she did doesn't require any sort of trap door. Like Harry said, she can just overlap her curse without needing to penetrate his protection. Stop the energy from ever getting to him, rather than stop him from absorbing it, or whatever.
Not if the knowledge and perspective he can only gain from that walkabout is part and parcel of the training, I would think.
...I think it's hard to denie that Mab went along with it to some degree, since Lea wanted to ans was compelled by bargain to reveal to harry who actually killed him. Uriel was the only one that wanted Harry to muddle around figuring that part out. Both Mab and Demonreach were bound (for some reason) to play along with that part of the charade. My objection is taking that isolated incident and using it as an excuse to to say Mab can know anything that Odin or Uriel can know in other circumstances. That same scene is where Lea explained that such an open relationship is impossible for Fae, by their very natures which are so literally tied to balance.
That said, I do believe that Mab went along with it, probably grudgingly, and that she did, in fact, gain an asset from the whole ordeal: she got a more powerfull, willfull and headstrong knight. I think Mab values obstinence, pride, and willpower over obedience, as we see both her and her mother compliment and expect Harry's resistance, and in fact enjoy it. It is after all after Harry recieves an earfull of truth from Uriel that he challenges Mab again, promising to smite her foes and lay low her enemies, and threatening her with mediocrity. What she has gotten out of the deal is a knight who dares challenge Mab herself. I think that is, in its own way, worth it in Mab's book. If he was simply meekly obedient and dependant on Mab, he would be of much lesser use. Without the lesson that Uriel taught him, he would, for one, have been killed by Mother winter and unable to stop the battle at demonreach, or might well have chosen to become a plaything of Maeve's, going with with "I'm already a monster," line of reasoning, the meak defeatism he shows before Uriel gives him seven words. He would, in other words, not have been willfull enough to resist Mab's enemies.
I think a much simpler reason exists: Harry did not, technicaly, lie to Mab. I remain convinced that, when Harry dealt with Mab, telling her that he had come to deal in good faith, he honestly believed he was telling the truth. That's the whole point of having Molly remove the memory of contacting Kinkaid - so that he could lie without lying.
Another thing: you claim that mab used elaborate word play to pretend to be in oppostition to Uriel while actualy working with him. For example, that while she says that "had he been wrong ect. ect," It's possible that uriel simply could not have been wrong. I'd disagree with this view. The nature of the future in the Dreden files does not seem to be set in stone. In DM, we see an angelic prophecy be wrong/thwarted, and Uriel himself claims that freewill can always change things.
Now, it might be almost impossible for him to be mistaken, but if it weren't a possibility, if it were not actually possible for Harry to, say, make use of Uriel's offer to join captain Jack and the others, or to simply make bad choices and overspend himself, not only does free will loose its meaning, the story becomes boring and trite, as conflict loses its value.
My objection is taking that isolated incident and using it as an excuse to to say Mab can know anything that Odin or Uriel can know in other circumstances. That same scene is where Lea explained that such an open relationship is impossible for Fae, by their very natures which are so literally tied to balance.
Without realising he was lying at the time, certainly.And about my assertion that *Harry* has not been proven to be willing to kill himself because it was the shadow that manipulated him into it?
Uriel also states, iirc, that this happens very rarely.I believe he also claims in the warrior that Harry does it far more often than most other people - probably at least every book. I haven't got my books with me, though. Someone check side jobs?
I would entirely disagree with that; seeing Uriel well manipulate a particular situation of extreme significance does not make the story as a whole lose conflict, it just illustrates that the conflict will have to be at a much more sophisticated and interesting level than Harry then thinks it is.I can see this argument, but i'm not sure I quite agree. At least some of the conflict in the dresdenfiles comes from Harry's willingness to put himself in danger for others, and from his willingness to constantly make free-willed choices. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate higher levels of conflict, such as Harry's internal struggle with some measure of darkness, or the conflict of trying not to be manipulated. But in ghost storry, I think park of the conflict, at least, is "Will harry wear his soul/spirit/memories thin trying to protect his friends?," and i think that's a relevant conflict that looses weight if it's already been perfectly precalculated that he won't.
Nothing prevents Lea from snatching up Amoracchius when it is undefended, in GP; she is not required to give any balancing response to Heaven. I am positing this as a reasonable model for Mab's potential interaction with Uriel.Well, one could say she took it up in payment for harry trying to break his word with her yet again. He was able to make it vulnerable and she was able to take it because at that point it didnt belong to heave, it belonged to its wielder :P
We know from Luccio in SmF that Maggie was a political radical within the White Council, and at odds with their power structure; if she wanted allies elsewhere, the White Court seem to be the least monstrous available option.
I would challenge this part, specifically (the bolded text). For one thing the "did she lie" WOJ clearly (to me) sets Uriel on a higher (Cosmic) tier, one which she apparently does not grasp very well. I think that the Mothers might on that tier and be aware enough for that sort of insight, but not the queens.
On the 'swiss army' bit, Harry has actually used Summer power once, in PG. Don't know if that's significant.
The "apparently against her wishes" there strikes me as rather clever.
Mab says she's cross with Uriel for sending Harry's soul walkabout. She also says that had Harry not made it through that he'd have been lost and gone forever. She puts those two sentences right next to each other and leaves Harry and us to infer a causal linkage. However, the grammatical form "had Harry died as a wandering soul, he'd have been gone forever" (I paraphrase from memory) is the same as "had I a billion dollars free and clear of obligation, I know exactly which good causes would receive the first $800 million of it"; it can be (and in my case is) perfectly true without requiring me to actually have a billion dollars, or for it to be a remotely plausible eventuality that I might have any time soon.
I think "She cannot change who you are" makes sense because Mab and Uriel see the universe in very very different ways. Mab cares about results. Uriel cares about choices. Mab's is an ethic of consequence, Uriel's one of free will. I'm not seeing that the ways the Winter mantle may change Harry matter a bent penny to Mab except to the extent that they make Harry more likely to do what she asks of him without qualm.
We have the evidence of SmF that Mab can seriously change the range of options Harry is aware of, and in so doing, guide the choices he makes toward a desired end. This does not seem to count as a violation of free will, at least at the scale at which Uriel cares about and is allowed/required to oppose such violations. We know from BR (and I can never remember whether this is Harry having breakfast with Kincaid and Murphy, or the screen with Harry and Bob immediately before; it's the conversation about Renfields) that it is possible for humans to be enthralled with such a fine touch that they do not even notice. Harry does not notice Mab messing with his memory in SmF; it takes Molly looking through his mind to find it, it takes Michael being suspicious that Harry has not lost Lasciel's shadow after all to motivate that search, and even when the mental block is found, Harry actively cannot resist or overcome it by will alone; that takes Michael's prayer, which looks to me like direct divine intervention.
The take-home message at the end of the day would appear to be: Mab can't change what Harry is in the sense Uriel cares about. But apart from that, she has pretty much free rein to manipulate what he does, which is what she cares about.
And what that achieves, that benefits all participants of Team UMO, is a Winter Knight who is willing to go along with being Winter Knight for the moment, rather than engaging in elaborate suicide attempts, because he is under the impression that Mab not being able to change who he is means he can meaningfully resist her wanting him to do something he finds objectionable. Harry saying "I will go along with this for the moment and make trouble if i see a need for it" is much more productive than Harry saying "I'm not doing any of this under any circumstances because it makes me a monster", and I think we have plenty of evidence for Mab's ability to convince Harry to do what she wants in any specific case where that's important (as seen in SK and SmF.)
If I understand the OP correctly the proposed plan by Maggie and Lord Raith was to create a Startborn with the ability to oppose the Outsiders; and possibly unnamed others, for the benefit of all the major powers on Earth, be they mortal human wizards or vampires, and the supernatural powers of the Nevernever as well.
However, while Margaret LeFay and Lord Raith openly proposed this plan; possibly with the support of Justin DuMorne, the truly major supernatural powers; represented by Uriel, Odin and Mab, have been working in a covert fashion, and generally speaking their efforts have been indirectly linked to one another, rather than a formal alliance with distinct roles spelled out by an agreed upon treaty.
I'm not sure why Maggie and Lord Raith would have to announced their plan or why they needed the agreement of the Red Court or Ebenezer McCoy. What part were these two parties supposed to have played in creating a Starborn?
I can understand why Lord Raith would want to create a Starborn wizard, especially one he could control. He might have been protected by Outsider magic or some variant of it, and he did use human summoners to call up HWWB, but he could have thought that having a Starborn working for House Raith was a way to balance the scales between himself and the Outsiders. In this way LR couldn't merely become an Outsider puppet, he could be their equal.
If the OP is correct, or at least close to being correct, I would hypothesize that Margaret LeFay figured out how to create a Starborn child without assistance from the WC (Ebenezer), the WCV or the RC. This would explain why LR didn't try to track down Harry as a child. He didn't realize how important he was, and not just important to the curse which Margaret placed on LR.
Lea - While reading the original OP I realized we have never been given a description of how Lea first introduced herself to Harry. It must have occurred shortly after the scene we were given in Ghost Story when Harry first met and defeated HWWB. That has got to be a great scene. I really want to read Harry's reaction when Lea tells him she is his Fairy Godmother. His psychotically murderous Fairy Godmother, but his Fairy Godmother just the same. I believe it is possible that Lea had made deals with more than just Margaret. I won't be surprised if we discover she made a deal with Justin DuMorne as well as Maggie, without ever telling either of them. What I don't understand is what she would have gotten from Mab by acting as her proxy, if it turns out Mab has been following Harry's progress from the very beginning.
Marcone - I don't believe that when Marcone shared a soulgaze with Harry that it was his introduction to the supernatural world. However, it was probably proof that everything he had heard about the supernatural world was real. I don't have Storm Front in front of me, but I remember Marcone said to Harry, "Mr Dresden, they say your the real Magus," (Not the exact quote, but very close.) which tells us that Marcone did his homework before he had that conversation with Harry.
I should check that scene again, because I do not recall anything to unambiguously say Marcone knows the supernatural is real, rather than merely being aware of Harry's reputation, at that point.Well, given that he was aware enough to know of and intend a Soulgaze indicated that at the very least he has done his homework. Said homework, however, could have been as simple as a visit to the back room of Bock Ordered Books. Though the line about "I choose which 'they' I listen to very carefully" makes me think he had a more specific informant on the matter. Lacking other evidence, I just assumed that Vadderung had already made some level of contact by that point. Marcone had, after all, been operating in the city and competing with various supernatural interests for years by that point. If the cops had been aware of the supernatural for generations, he probably was as well to some degree.