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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: black omega on May 02, 2013, 02:57:22 PM
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Has anyone tried a Dresden game yet using Fate Core? I'm currently working on one and looking for more ideas. So far I'm planning to stick with the skills for Dresden, minus Presence since the social stress track has gone away and it would not be likely to see much use in my game in any case. Merging Might and Endurance into Physique was interesting in Core but would result in wizards who want to cast longer looking like Ahnuld and that's not quite the effect I'm going for. The powers look like they adapt without trouble. Conviction and Discipline merging into Will makes things simpler for wizards but does take away the "I can generate more power than I can easily control" element.
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You're not the first to have this idea. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37828.0.html)
I would suggest using Fight and Shoot instead of Fists, Weapons, and Guns. I'd probably drop Burglary, too.
And if you merge Conviction and Discipline you should do something to make casting weaker. Because otherwise it's a pretty big upgrade for Wizards.
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I think its pretty easy to convert to fate core. However The magic system is definitely my stumbling block. The current system of putting power into a spell, and then trying to control works great for thaumaturgy, but once combat starts, everything grinds to a halt. Instead I plan make magic just like a skill using Will and Focus:
Will represents the raw emotional force of a character. It can be used to defend against provoke attacks and mental attacks, or overcome hardship through sheer stubbornness. It is used to provided mental stress boxes. In magical terms, it is used when blunt force is necessary (attacks, blowing doors off their hinges, creating strong winds)
Focus represents a characters ability to control their emotions, to stay awake, engage in games of chess, crack codes etc, etc. In magical terms, it is used when fine control is necessary (lighting a fuse, creating a veil or picking a lock with air magic).
In games terms, Harry would have a high Will (his attacks trend to hurt) but a low Focus ( he isnt great at subtle magic like veils)
I am also thinking about doing away with the 1 point min stress for evocations. Rereading various combats with Harry, its clear he seems to be able to throw around a few spells without serious effect.Its only when he tries something powerful that tends to leave him exhausted or spent.
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Well, I had a suggestion, but as I typed it I realized it would apply more to the original game rules rather than the Fate Core rules.
I was going to suggest only taking Mental Stress if the power of your Evocation exceeds your Conviction, at which point you take one Mental Stress for each point over. So, you have Conviction 3 and you summon up 4 Shifts of power, you take 1 Mental Stress. In practice, this reduces the Stress cost of a single spell by 1, but greatly expands the number of spells a character can cast. The previous example... the guy could cast 3 shifts of power spells all day long... is that what you intend? Or perhaps there should be a limit based on his Physique or Endurance?
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Hi everyone, thanks for the replies.
You're not the first to have this idea. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37828.0.html)
I would have been shocked if I was. Thanks for the link.
I would suggest using Fight and Shoot instead of Fists, Weapons, and Guns. I'd probably drop Burglary, too.
One of the PCs is going to be a retired thief, dropping Burglary seems unnecessary. The skills are useful for some types of games. I'm undecided on Fight/Shoot vs. Fists/Weapons/Guns. Too few skills and the PCs will all have the same skills.
And if you merge Conviction and Discipline you should do something to make casting weaker. Because otherwise it's a pretty big upgrade for Wizards.
Good point. I'm likely to keep them. Using magic for aspects is pretty easy but the big attacks Dresden goes for now and then cost alot of stress, that limits the number of omega strikes the PCs can use.
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Regarding magic, i am trying to capture the spirit of dresden, but trying to do away with power and roll for magic like skills. In other words, if you roll high to place an aspect or defend, thats equivalent to putting more power into the spell.I am looking at a sort of skill boost you can have by taking mental stress. So if you want to cast regular unboosted magic, thats just a case of rolling Will or Focus and hoping for a high result. If want to say attack somone with a Weapon 6 fireball, thats going to cost 6 mental stress.
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Regarding magic, i am trying to capture the spirit of dresden, but trying to do away with power and roll for magic like skills. In other words, if you roll high to place an aspect or defend, thats equivalent to putting more power into the spell.I am looking at a sort of skill boost you can have by taking mental stress. So if you want to cast regular unboosted magic, thats just a case of rolling Will or Focus and hoping for a high result. If want to say attack somone with a Weapon 6 fireball, thats going to cost 6 mental stress.
That's pretty much what I was trying to do, maybe you can use this:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37624.msg1841610.html#msg1841610
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That's pretty much what I was trying to do, maybe you can use this:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37624.msg1841610.html#msg1841610
Very nice work. I think I will definitely yoink parts of that :)
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Glad you like it. If you make changes, I would appreciate if you post them to the thread, maybe they can improve the power.
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Well this is how I am going to run evocation magic, using Fate Core. Each spellcaster has 3 skills
Lore: supernatural awareness and arcane knowledge
Will: conviction and belief - represents the power of your spells
Focus: mental discipline and ability to control magical energy
Gathering Power
To achieve any effect with magic you need to first gather magical power. Fortunately magical energy is the essence of life and emotions; you need only a moment to focus your will or channel an emotion to power a spell. However if you want to put more effort and power into a spell its possible to take a create an advantage action; use Will when getting emotional, Focus for intense concentration, and Lore to draw magic from your surroundings. The difficulty is equal to the ambient level of magical energy; typically this is Fair (+2), but in the Nevernever this could be Moderate (+0) at worst, while a magical dead zone would likely be at least Superb (+5). In a magically sealed environment, such as within an uninvited threshold or circle of magic, use the thresholds strength or the Will of the Spellcaster. If this action is successful, you may use any free invokes gained to cast your spell.
Casting the Spell
Now the energy is gathered, you need to focus and release it safely in the form of a spell. Choose one of the following actions. Unless you are casting a rote spell, you must also take a point of mental stress.
Overcome: Use Will to deliberately hex a machine or piece of technology, or overcome an obstacle or problem using magic, such as picking a lock or lighting a fuse. Use Will to remove an aspect created with magic (known as a counterspell); the spell’s caster may defend with Will.
Create an Advantage: Use Will to alter the environment with magic, or place a mental or physical aspect on a target. This may be an impediment, such as Trapped in Ice or Dazzled, or defensive in nature, such as Veil of Invisibility or Entropic Shield. Characters can defend against this with Athletics or Will as appropriate.
Attack: Use Will to harm someone with magic, whether conjuring fireballs or removing air from their lungs. Targets can defend against this with Athletics or Will depend¬ing on the nature of the attack.
Defend: Use Will to defend against hostile magics or other supernatural effects (known as a counterspell). If you have a defensive aspect on yourself you may use Will to defend against an appropriate action; a force shield against physical attacks or a veil against Notice rolls etc.
Backlash and Fallout
If your skill result is greater than your Focus skill, you have failed to properly harness the magical energies in the spell; your spell may be successful, but you must deal with the chaotic effects of uncontrolled magic. Each shift of uncontrolled power (the difference between you skill result and your Focus) must take the form of either backlash or fallout. Backlash is when your body absorbs this chaotic energy; you must take a point of either mental or physical stress for each shift assigned. Fallout represents uncontrolled magical energies leaking into the environment. In game terms, the Gm gets to place an aspect on the scene using the shifts you assign as a passive opposition to any attempts to overcome it.
Harry Dresden is trying to cast a fireball at a ghoul in his office. He makes a Will roll getting a result of 7; since his Focus is just +4, Harry decides to take all of those shifts as fallout. The Gm places Office on Fire on the scene, whether the spell hits the ghoul or not. Anyone trying to remove or get past the fire requires a Good (+3) result or better.
Rote Spells
You start with a number of rote spells equal to your Lore, plus any gained from the Refinement power. Words insulate a spell caster from harm when casting an evocation spell and each rote spell must be named and spoken when cast; typically this is in another language to prevent you from accidentally casting it. Each rote spell has a defined element and type of action – you cannot modify the basic nature of a rote spell, but you may gather power to increase the power of the final effect.
Specializations: Each specialization provides a +1 bonus to Focus, Lore or Will when using a specific element or type of thaumaturgy.
Crafting Specializations: Each specialization provides a +1 bonus to the Capacity, Frequency or Potency of any items you create. Any Focus items you create have a Capacity equal to your Lore. Any Enchanted items you create have a Frequency of 1, and a Potency equal to your Lore.
Focus items: Each Focus item slot provides a +1 bonus to your Focus, Lore or Will relating to one element or type of thaumaturgy, used either offensively or defensively. A blasting rod could provide a +1 Focus when using fire offensively, or a shield bracelet may add +1 to Will when using defensive spirit magic. If you want to be able to apply an additional element or type to a focus, all elements must share the same bonuses; for a staff that provides a +1 Focus to offensive fire magic, and +1 Will to defensive fire magic, adding the element of water would cost an additional 2 focus item slots. No single item may have a total number of bonuses that exceeds its Capacity.
Enchanted items: Each enchanted item slot represents an item containing a spell, usable a number of times each session equal to the item’s Frequency. Activating the spell is just like casting an evocation spell using the item’s Potency; it is not subject to fallout or backlash but you cannot gather power to increase this value. You may increase an item’s Frequency by reducing its Potency by the same amount. However, you cannot reduce an item’s Potency to less than 1 plus your Potency bonuses. You may also reduce an item’s Potency by 1 so that it can be used by anyone; such as a wand that requires a word to activate or a scroll containing a spell.
Each additional enchantment slot can be used to either increase an item’s Potency by 1, or its Frequency by 2. However, no item can have a Potency rating of more than twice your Lore without a very good rationale and a ton of baggage.
Enchanted items may need a skill to use effectively, such as staff of fireballs that requires a Shoot roll. In this case use the skill or the item’s Potency, whichever is lowest. If an item has been drained of uses, you may still use them but you must take a point of mental stress when doing so.
Armour: Armour is a special type of enchanted item that provides an Armour rating equal to the item’s Potency/2, rounding down. Each time armour is activated it lasts for an entire scene or until it removed by magic; you may defend against such actions with Will.
Potions: Potions are a special type of enchanted item. They can be used by anyone without needing to reduce their Potency, but can only be used once. If you have any enchantment slots free at the start of a session, you may declare any of these as potions. Alternatively, you may create an advantage using lore, to have one on hand (or a second if you succeed with style). Unlike regular enchanted items, you may gather power to bolster the effectiveness of the potion, creating an advantage such as Empowered Potion.
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High rolls should not be bad for the character who achieves them.
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Not sure I see the point of those rules. You take two actions, risk backlash/fallout, take mental stress, and so on...in exchange for what? Magic doesn't seem to do anything that a normal skill roll doesn't do.
Also:
What does Focus do, other than help with spellcasting?
Are you using the standard costs for Evocation and Thaumaturgy?
Why have you removed thaumaturgical enchanted items?
Why have you made armour items last so long?
I just don't get the point of this rules revision. What are you aiming at here?
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You only need to take two actions if you want to give a spell more juice. Normally its a case of casting a spell. I wanted to get away from the declare power shifts then try to harness it. Instead your Will roll represents the power of the spell. You can keep gathering power to fire it up, achieving huge results, but unless you have a high Focus, its going to be messy. In other words, your Will result is equivalent to the shifts of power in the spell. If you have a high Will but low Focus, your spells will be more dramatic but destructive. If you have a low Will and high focus, your spells will be less powerful, but controlled. I wouldn't have any problem with players reducing their Will result if they didn't want backlash etc
The alternative is to ditch Focus and have everything run off Will, with backlash and fallout occurring as a failed roll. The only problem with this is that if you gather more power, it actually reduces the chance of failure, which seems counter intuitive to me.
Focus is used for games of chess, staying awake, placing concentration type actions on yourself etc. Will is used for overcoming hardship with faith, belief or conviction etc.
For armour, in Fate core aspects seem to stay around much longer, so that was just my thinking, but I could do way with that completely - treat armour as an aspect so it stays around until it has been overcome or counter spelled.
Yes, evocation and thaumaturgy costs the same as the book, along with focus item slots and specialisations.
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Regarding spells being not as good as skills, with magic you can do things not possible with skills. You may be able to use Physique to create an aspect such as Toppled crates, but with magic you can cover the floor with quicksand or incase someone in ice. Being able to throw fireballs is also handy,especially without a gun (my game is in Britain so my players are not toting guns).
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Still I take your points. I may try this- its a hybrid between fate core and dfrpg:
Gathering Power
To achieve any effect with magic you need to first gather magical power. Fortunately magical energy is the essence of life and emotions; you need only take a moment to focus your will or channel an emotion. Unless you are casting a rote spell or hexing, you must take a point of mental stress to do this. If you want to create a more powerful effect, you can draw shifts of power into your spell up to your Focus without harm; any more power causes backlash or fallout (see below)
Casting the Spell
Now the power is gathered, you must focus the energy into a spell. Choose one of the following actions:
Overcome: Use Will roll to deliberately hex an entire machine or Focus to hex one component. Use Will to overcome an obstacle using brute force, such as such as blowing down a door, or Focus to use fine manipulation, such as picking a lock or lighting a fuse. Use Will to remove an aspect created with magic (known as a counterspell). You must exceed the difficulty of the obstacle, or in the case of a counterspell, the Will of the caster. Each 2 shifts of power may be used to hex or counterspell all targets within one zone
Create an Advantage: Use Will to alter the environment with magic or place a mental or physical impediment on a target, such as Trapped in Ice or Dazzled. Use Focus to place a veil or shield on a target. Characters can defend against this with Athletics or Will as appropriate. For each 2 shifts of power, you may affect all targets within one zone. For each 2 shifts of power you gain a free invoke with the created aspect. For 2 shifts of power you can create a veil that can be seen out from.
Attack: Use Will to harm someone with magic, whether conjuring fireballs or removing air from their lungs. Targets can defend against this with Athletics or Will depend¬ing on the nature of the attack. Each shift of power increases the Weapon rating of the attack by 1. For each additional 2 shifts of power, you may attack all targets within one zone.
Defend: Use Will to defend against hostiles magic or supernatural effects. If you have a
defensive aspect such as a shield or veil, you may use Will to defend when applicable.
Backlash and Fallout
If the shifts of power in a spell exceed your Focus, you have failed to properly harness the magical energies in the spell; your spell may be successful, but you must deal with the chaotic effects of uncontrolled magic. Each excessive shift of power must take the form of either backlash or fallout. Backlash is when your body absorbs this chaotic energy; you must take a point of either mental or physical stress for each shift assigned. Fallout represents uncontrolled magical energies leaking into the environment. In game terms, the Gm gets to place an aspect on the scene using the shifts you assign as a guide to the scale of destruction this causes, and the difficulty to overcome it.
Harry Dresden is trying to cast Fuego at a ghoul in his office, putting 7 shifts of power into the spell. Since his Focus is +4 ,Harry decides to take all of those shifts as fallout. The Gm places Office on Fire to the scene requiring Good (+3) result to get avoid, whether the spell hits the ghoul or not…
Rote Spells
You possess a number of rote spells equal to your Lore. Words insulate a spell caster from harm when casting an evocation spell and each rote spell must be named and spoken when cast; typically this is in another language to prevent you from accidentally casting it. Each rote spell has a defined element and type of action. If the rote spell benefits from a focus item, you can only use the rote spell with it.
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I think I would go a different approach. Might be simpler.
First, I like the distinction between will and focus. It's like the approaches from Fate Accelerated, which I really come to appreciate as an idea the last few days.
I would make magic a skill extra, meaning a character can take one or both skills will and focus to create magic effects.
Will is for flashy bits of magic, focus for delicate stuff.
Then you just take the 4 approaches:
Attack: Plain and simple: attack. Nothing with weapon rating, nothing with shifts of power, just roll as an attack like you would with guns.
Create Advantage:
Just as any other skill, with the exception that your "wizard" high concept allows you to do things with magic.
Overcome:
Pretty much the same as Create Advantage, no extra rules needed.
Defend:
Use the magic skill of your choice to defend against magic.
Shield:
Create an Advantage and use that to justify defending against physical attacks with your magic skills until someone removes that aspect.
Hexing:
Really depends on what you want to do. Mostly, this will be an Overcome or a Create Advantage action, but hexing high voltage stuff could become an attack as well.
Backlash and Fallout:
No need to count shifts of power and the likes. Just use the Outcomes. Instead of a failure, you go for a "success at a cost", and there you have your backlash or fallout, depending on how you apply the costs.
And that's pretty much it, 100% Core compatible and way easier to handle.
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Yes I tend to overcomplicate things.Having just play tested my rules, the players seemed overly keen to lay waste to their environment for a precious power bonus. So I am going to use your simple approach, and try something similar for thaumaturgy. Since its mentioned in the book, and I kind of like it, I am going to add that casting a non-rote spell costs you a point of stress. I will also allow a character to take a penalty to try to do something trickier. So effecting all targets in a zone is a -2 penalty. Making a veil one sided is a -2 penalty etc
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Since its mentioned in the book, and I kind of like it, I am going to add that casting a non-rote spell costs you a point of stress.
Hadn't thought of that, but that's a nice touch, I like it.
I will also allow a character to take a penalty to try to do something trickier. So effecting all targets in a zone is a -2 penalty. Making a veil one sided is a -2 penalty etc
Makes sense. Though I wonder, is that something that Fate Core still does, or is it dealing with things like that in another way?
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I think I would go a different approach. Might be simpler.
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And that's pretty much it, 100% Core compatible and way easier to handle.
I like this much better.
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Makes sense. Though I wonder, is that something that Fate Core still does, or is it dealing with things like that in another way?
Actually i think you may be right. Attacks and aspects can effect entire zones, but will effect you as well. I may go with a -1 penalty per zone of distance to the target. If you want to blitz a zone it will need to be at least one zone away. You can always split your results as well. Stunts is probably the way to go for selective zone-blasting magic
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I think a stunt would be best, yes. Zone attacks without a penalty and a stunt for selective targeting are both established in the Fate Core rules already.
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I think thaumaturgy needs some thought to keep things simple. In last nights game, a player , with time on their side, decided to create a ward. I used the dfrpg system since I hadnt fate cored it yet. This involved creating several aspects with rolls, working out the barriers strength and slowly gathering the power (which i didnt bother with). After 15 minutes it occurred to me that this kind of sucked. Without any real time pressure and a high Focus you could create a 100 pt ward that lasted for a millennium. Sure it may take a few hours to construct and maybe several minutes casting, but it would be easily possible. I am thinking of a something like this:
Thaumaturgy
Thaumaturgy is handled by a challenge involving a Lore action to build the construct and a Focus action to cast the spell. Assign a difficulty for the spell from Average(+1) for a minor ritual, up to Legendary (+8) or more for a heart- exploding type spell. As a guide, use the complexity ratings in the rulebook and divide by 3, rounding up. If you fail your Lore roll the spell cant be cast- you will need to start again from scratch next scene. You may choose to create an advantage to succeed at this roll, but if you fail, you must increase the difficulty by 2. Once the spell is constructed, the spell can be cast. If you fail this roll, you may take fallout or backlash. Rituals take a little while to cast. The difficulty of the spell represents the number of exchanges needed to cast the spell safely; you may reduce this number, but you must increase the casting difficulty by the same amount. If your ritual is disrupted, such as someone attacking you or breaking a circle of magic, you must immediately take mental or physical stress equal to the difficulty of the spell.The spell of course fails and is also likely to cause fallout to the surrounding area.
Harry is building a ward. He wants a ward strength of 10, plus a ward flame, and wants it to last a month. The Gm gives this a difficulty of Fantastic (+6) . His Lore is just +3 so he uses Resources to gain a ritual item, and Scholar to do some further research. These are both successful, so he rolls at +7. He succeeds and now needs to make a Focus roll; with a Focus of just +3, he is going to have his work cut out for him. After 6 exchanges, unsurprisingly, he fails but decides to take a consequence to have the spell cast successfully. With the ward in place he goes for a lie down to shift his migraine...
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Extra: Evocation
Permission: An aspect reflecting your magical training such as White Council Wizard or Focused Practitioner.
Cost: 1-2 Refresh
You may use Will or Focus to achieve magical effects. For 1 refresh cost you are a focused practitioner and are only able to use one element. For 2 refresh cost, you are able to use any 3 elements.
Overcome: Use Will to solve a problem with magic using brute force, such as blowing down a wall or jumping over a pit. Use Focus to solve a problem with magic using finesse and fine control, such as picking a lock or lighting a fuse. Counter a spell using Will, resisted by the Will of the caster.
Create an Advantage: Use Will to alter the scene or an individual with magic in an obvious manner, such as a wall of fire or quicksand. Use Focus to alter the scene or an individual with subtle magic such as a veil or changing the emotional mood. You suffer -1 for each zone of distance to your target.
Attack: Use Will to harm a target in a direct manner such as a fireball or force bolt. Use Focus to harm a target in a subtle way, such as removing air from their lungs. You suffer -1 for each zone of distance to your target.
Defend: Use Will to defend against a magical attack. Use Will to defend if you have an appropriate aspect in place.
Rote Spells: Choose a number of Rote spells equal to your Lore. If you attempt to cast any spell, other than a rote spell, you must take one mental stress. Each rote spell should have a name, preferably in a foreign language.
Focus Items: You start with 2 focus item slots.
Stunts:
Sorcery Sharpshooter
When using magic at range, you may ignore the normal range penalties. You must still be able to see your target, however.
Arcane Refinement
Choose one element or type of thaumaturgy. You gain a +1 bonus to either Will, Lore or Focus actions, when casting magic of that type.
Reactive Shield
If you are attacked, you may make a Will roll to create a shield-based aspect on yourself, which you can instantly invoke if necessary.
Magical Thug
When making an attack with magic, if you take a point of mental stress your attack has a Weapon Rating of 2.
Magical Heavyweight
Requirement: Magical Thug.
Your magical attacks have a Weapon rating of 2. If you take a point of mental stress your attack has a Weapon Rating of 4.
Selective Targetting
When using magic, you may effect more than one target without having to split your result.
Smoke and Mirrors
When using spirit magic to create veils, you may take a point of mental stress to create a special effect such as a one way veil, a veil that only blocks against vampires, or a veil large enough to cover several targets without splitting your result
Magical Macgyver
If you have any focus item slots free at the start of a session, you may spend a fate point to assign them to a new item that you just happen to have on hand, or are able to create with a roll of duck tape and swiss army knife.
Arcane Arsenal
You start with an additional 2 Focus item slots
Natural Born Elementalist
You may use an additional 2 elements when using magic.
Walking Spellbook
You may choose an additional 2 rote spells
Dropping the M-bomb
When making a magical attack affecting an entire zone, you may take a point of mental stress to affect an adjacent zone.
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My biggest concern with all of this is that it really takes away the drama of spellcasting we see in the novels, which I think the current system handles nicely.
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Well I have been running a campaign for a few weeks and the moment the players start to cast spells, everything tends to grind to a halt. Although the existing system replicates the books approach, I find it doesn't work in a roleplaying situation. The current magic system actually works on the reverse of the rest of the game. Normally you roll to see how you do at an action. With the current system the spellcaster decides what result they want, and then tries to make that happen without blowing themselves up. In my experience, calculating power shifts really tends to cut the flow of the drama. With Thaumaturgy this is magnified, with everything turning into an accountancy exercise. Of course you may find thats different with your group - for me I realised I needed to do something and now having read fate cores approach, I am a convert. Since introducing magic as a skill roll, things seem to move on at a greater pace.
There are also some inconsistences with the books regarding magic though. I went through the books and most of the time Harry is able to chuck around 7 or 8 spells each scene without many problems. its only when he throws a powerful spell that he tends to get exhausted. Even then he seems to be able to channel his pain into casting a spell. With the current system, even with a huge Conviction score, you cant cast anymore than 4 spells without taking consequences - 9 spells would probably kill anyone who tried. This tends to make players reticent of casting spells in my experience. With the changes I have made so far, its giving them more confidence to get a little more dramatic, and I dont feel quite so bad throwing vampires or ogres at them, knowing that they should be able to get themselves out of a tricky situation with magic.
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When doing a full Fate Core conversion, I wouldn't bother with elements any more. That's a thing for aspects now.
You are mentioning focus items a few times, yet you don't say what they are actually supposed to do. I wouldn't really bother with them, to be honest. Maybe make them a weapon instead, so when you are shooting magic with a focus item, it is similar to a gun. Or a focus item can be a stunt, for example a permanent justification to roll will for physical defense with a shield bracelet. Like your reactive shield, only without rolling to put an aspect up. The stunt pretty much is the aspect.
Thaumaturgy, to me, is very off the way you describe it. Since it isn't really a skill so much as a series of actions (not in the "the four actions sense, but a "first you do this, then that and so forth") you take, it can be a lot of different things, depending on what you want to do with it. It can be a simple overcome action, a contest, a challenge, or it may even become a full scene with a conflict and everything.
You want to open a lock? That's an overcome action.
You want to do a tracking spell? That's a chase, just with magic against athletics instead of athletics against athletics.
And so forth.
The ward you describe, to me, seems pretty boring. If the ward is never used, there is no need for it to even exist. If the ward is used, then someone is trying to get into your house, it is interesting, it is exciting, play it out. There is a "security specialist" stunt for burglary, that lets you get into active opposition if someone is trying to overcome a security system you installed. Why not do the same thing here? Just have an aspect like "this place is warded", and when someone is trying to get through, you make it a conflict wizard against intruder on the basis that so long as the wizard wins, the ward holds up.
And before you get into casting the spell and playing out what you do, you can prepare, create advantages that you might need. Some might even be required to just be able to do the spell. Like a symbolic link.
My biggest concern with all of this is that it really takes away the drama of spellcasting we see in the novels, which I think the current system handles nicely.
Really? I think the magic system in DFRPG is pretty clunky. You can still get a lot of drama here with success at a cost and the occasional compel, and those aren't just random things then, they'll mean something.
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Is there anyway the two threads on this topic can be combined. I'm seeing good ideas, but they are expansions or refinements of the ideas in the other thread. Great intellectual food! Thank you guys!
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When doing a full Fate Core conversion, I wouldn't bother with elements any more. That's a thing for aspects now.
So do mean something like Master of Fire, Spirit and Air? Wouldn't that be more useful than a focused practitioner with just Master of Water?
You are mentioning focus items a few times, yet you don't say what they are actually supposed to do. I wouldn't really bother with them, to be honest. Maybe make them a weapon instead, so when you are shooting magic with a focus item, it is similar to a gun. Or a focus item can be a stunt, for example a permanent justification to roll will for physical defense with a shield bracelet. Like your reactive shield, only without rolling to put an aspect up. The stunt pretty much is the aspect.
I was going to keep it pretty much as dfrpg - each provides a bonus to Will or Focus with a certain element. But I can see a stunt may be easier.
Thaumaturgy, to me, is very off the way you describe it. Since it isn't really a skill so much as a series of actions (not in the "the four actions sense, but a "first you do this, then that and so forth") you take, it can be a lot of different things, depending on what you want to do with it. It can be a simple overcome action, a contest, a challenge, or it may even become a full scene with a conflict and everything.
You want to open a lock? That's an overcome action.
You want to do a tracking spell? That's a chase, just with magic against athletics instead of athletics against athletics.
And so forth.
The ward you describe, to me, seems pretty boring. If the ward is never used, there is no need for it to even exist. If the ward is used, then someone is trying to get into your house, it is interesting, it is exciting, play it out. There is a "security specialist" stunt for burglary, that lets you get into active opposition if someone is trying to overcome a security system you installed. Why not do the same thing here? Just have an aspect like "this place is warded", and when someone is trying to get through, you make it a conflict wizard against intruder on the basis that so long as the wizard wins, the ward holds up.
And before you get into casting the spell and playing out what you do, you can prepare, create advantages that you might need. Some might even be required to just be able to do the spell. Like a symbolic link.
Very interesting ideas. I think I would need to work through several examples to know how to do stuff.
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So do mean something like Master of Fire, Spirit and Air? Wouldn't that be more useful than a focused practitioner with just Master of Water?
Wouldn't even go that far. For a focused practitioner, sure, that should be noted in the high concept, but it won't really make much of a difference, if a "Wizard of the white council" can wreck havoc in 3 or 5 elements. You might agree as a group in the beginning that the wizard who is "calm as the ocean" has problems with firemagic or the "hotheaded" apprentice will never do a good water evocation, but that's about what is necessary there, I believe.
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Ok, so the original evocation rules provide a bonus to one type of element. Rather than that, perhaps each spell caster may assign a +1 bonus to one or more elements, but must apply this total as penalties with the other elements.These would be based on the characters aspects, like you mentioned. Focused practitioners maybe get a +1 bonus to just one type of element but can only use that. So Harry gets a +1 bonus to using spirit, fire and air magic, but -3 to water. The same would be true of thaumaturgy. Harry gets +1 with wards and divination, but -2 to veils, or whatever.
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So regarding thaumaturgy, maybe something like this:
Thaumaturgy
Permissions: You must have an appropriate aspect related to your magical training.
Cost: 1 Refresh
Normally, you can use all forms of thaumaturgy, but you may choose to be a focused practitioner, focusing on one form of thaumaturgy or one thematic type, such as necromancy. You do, however, gain +1 to all rolls involving your specialism.
Thaumaturgy is the magic of symbolic links; you cast a spell on a small scale, invest it with energy, and use symbolic links to expand the power and scope of the spell. For very powerful spells you will need top fuel the spell with greater magic by tapping into storms, leylines, emotional energy, pain or even blood sacrifice.
Preparation
You need to build a construct to hold the energy in your spell. Create as many aspects as you feel is necessary as preparation for this; it usually take one scene for each create an advantage action and will require Average (+1) skill results but the Gm may assign higher values when he wants more drama and tension. Once the preparation is complete, you must make a Lore roll to build the construct; this typically takes a scene and your result determines the spells complexity. If you are desperate, you may inflict or take consequences; each consequence increases the spells complexity by the consequence's value.
Powering the Ritual
Now you need to gather power into the spell construct. Make a Focus roll with a difficulty equal to the complexity of the spell. For each additional exchange spent gathering power, you may add 1 to your skill result.
- If you fail, the ritual fails and all the preparation is wasted; perhaps you are distracted while casting. You may choose to succeed, but you must take fallout or backlash just like an evocation spell.
- If you tie, you ritual is ready to be cast, but you must take a point of mental stress. If you cant do this, the spell fails and the preparation is wasted.
- If you succeed, you channel the energy into the spell.
- If you succeed with style, you channel the energy into the spell and gain a free boost; you may use this to increase the complexity of the spell by 2.
If the spell construct isdamaged or your concentration is broken in any way before releasing the spell, the spell fails and you must take fallout or backlash.
Releasing the Spell
Decide what you are going to do with the spell:
Solve an improbable or impossible problem: Take an overcome action using the spell's complexity. The Gm sets the difficulty; for example, tracking someone with magic might require a Legendary (+8) result.
Creating Lasting changes in people and things: Take an attack action using the spell's complexity. Depending on the effect this will either be resisted by Physique or Will, and cause physical or mental stress. Any consequences inflicted result in lasting transformations.
Provide Inaccessable knowledge: Create an aspect using the spell's complexity. Characters may defend using Will.
Allow interaction with the supernatural: Take an overcome action using the spell's complexity. The supernatural entity can resist your attempts with Will.
Shape magical energies into a physical form: Create an aspect using the spell's complexity. This is typically Average (+1), but higher difficulties may be needed for complicated veils, wards or conjured items; a veil that is a one-way mirror may need a Good (+3) skill result, while conjuring a field of animated frogs might require a Legendary (+8) result or more. Any aspect created provides a passive opposition of Mediocre (+0), and you may actively defend using your Will. If you gain a success with style you gain an additional free invoke for every 2 shifts of success above 3[size=78%] [/size]
Duration: A standard spell has a duration of "till the next sunrise" unless the spell is an attack or overcome action. You may reduce your shifts of success; each shift reduced increases a spells duration by one time increment:
a day, a few days, a week, a few weeks, a month, a few months, a season, half a year, a year, a few years, a decade, a generation, a mortals lifetime, several lifetimes etc
For instance, Harry needs to summon Chauncy the demon. He first needs to build a summoning circle to contain him. He reckons 11 complexity should be enough to resist Chauncy escaping for the duration. He makes a Lore roll to research demonology, Resources to create a new silver summoning circle, Scholar for more research and Will to meditate before the ritual. He makes all of these rolls, so makes a Lore roll at +8 to build his construct, getting a result of 10. He decides to take a consequence from a migraine, boosting the complexity to 12. Harry is now ready to power the spell and decides to spend 10 exchanges casting the ritual so he needs to make a Focus roll at +9. Fortunately he makes that and can finally release the spell. The Creating the Summoning Circle aspect will require an Average (+1) result. Thats 11 shifts of success, providing 3 invokes and a passive opposition of 11. Before summoning Chauncy, Harry goes for a lie down...
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Evocation
Permissions: An aspect reflecting your magical training such as White Council Wizard or Focused Practitioner.
Cost: 1 Refresh
You may use Will or Focus to achieve magical effects. You must choose 3 elements to be trained in, or may choose to be a focused practitioner; you can only use a single element, but gain a +1 bonus to all rolls involving magic, when using it.
Overcome: Use Will to solve a problem with magic using brute force, such as blowing down a wall or jumping over a pit. Use Focus to solve a problem with magic using finesse and fine control, such as picking a lock or lighting a fuse. Counter a spell using Will, resisted by the Will of the caster.
Create an Advantage: Use Will to alter the scene or an individual with magic in an obvious manner, such as a wall of fire or quicksand. Use Focus to alter the scene or an individual with subtle magic such as a veil or changing the emotional mood. You suffer -1 for each zone of distance to your target.
Attack: Use Will to harm a target in a direct manner such as a fireball or force bolt. Use Focus to harm a target in a subtle way, such as removing air from their lungs. You suffer -1 for each zone of distance to your target.
Defend: Use Will to defend against a magical attack. Use Will to defend if you have an appropriate aspect in place.
Rote Spells: Choose a number of Rote spells equal to your Lore. If you attempt to cast any spell, other than a rote spell, you must take one mental stress. Each rote spell should have a name, preferably in a foreign language.
Stunts:
Sorcery Sharpshooter
When using magic at range, you may ignore the normal range penalties. You must still be able to see your target, however.
Arcane Refinement
Choose one element or type of thaumaturgy. You gain a +1 bonus to either Will, Lore or Focus actions, when casting magic of that type.
Insta Shield
You may use Will to defend against physical attacks, but you must take a point of mental stress when doing so.
Magical Thug
When making an attack with magic, if you take a point of mental stress your attack has a Weapon Rating of 2.
Magical Heavyweight
Requirement: Magical Thug.
Your magical attacks have a Weapon rating of 2. If you take a point of mental stress your attack has a Weapon Rating of 4.
Selective Targetting
When using magic, you may effect more than one target without having to split your result.
Additional Element
You may use an additional element when using magic.
Walking Spellbook
You may choose an additional 2 rote spells
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Enchanted Items
If you have the Thaumaturgy extra, you may create magical items. In game terms these are bought as Stunts. If any rote spells benefit from bonuses gained from items, you can only use those rote spells with the item.
Sample items:
Blasting Rod
Any magical attacks made using fire gain a Weapon rating of 2.
Shield Bracelet
You may defend against physical attacks using your Will.
Enchanted Leather Duster
This leather coat has an Armour rating of 2.
Warden Sword
This sword has a Weapon rating of 3. For 1 Fate Point, you may either counter an enchantment with a Fantastic (+6) skill result, as long as your blade strike the target, or the weapon is treated as a Weapon 6 for one attack.
Harry's Staff
You gain +1 to all Focus rolls when using fire-based evocations.
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For instance, Harry needs to summon Chauncy the demon. He first needs to build a summoning circle to contain him. He reckons 11 complexity should be enough to resist Chauncy escaping for the duration. He makes a Lore roll to research demonology, Resources to create a new silver summoning circle, Scholar for more research and Will to meditate before the ritual. He makes all of these rolls, so makes a Lore roll at +8 to build his construct, getting a result of 10. He decides to take a consequence from a migraine, boosting the complexity to 12. Harry is now ready to power the spell and decides to spend 10 exchanges casting the ritual so he needs to make a Focus roll at +9. Fortunately he makes that and can finally release the spell. The Creating the Summoning Circle aspect will require an Average (+1) result. Thats 11 shifts of success, providing 3 invokes and a passive opposition of 11. Before summoning Chauncy, Harry goes for a lie down...
This is a great example of what I meant. Look at the book. The whole summoning and binding Chauncy part takes up about 3 sentences. In other words: it is not important to the story. The interesting part is what happens when Harry talks to Chauncy, can he get him to give him the information he needs, and what will be the price? So in this case, thaumaturgy would merely be the justification to start a social conflict with Chauncy, I wouldn't even really roll for that.
Now look at DB, when Harry summons the Erlking. The whole thing, gathering ingredients, getting the incantation and the final summoning take up a huge part of the book. Because it is a key point of the story.
Now let's look at a chase scene.
First we set it up. The perp just grabbed something important off you and runs off. Now there are a lot of things that can be done.
First, the obvious: You run after him. This will be a straight up athletics contest. Both roll athletics and add um their numbers, and the one who has more shifts at the end of 3 rounds wins.
Now we can go another way. Instead of running after him, I could say "I'm too old for this shit!". Instead of getting into an athletics contest I can't win. Instead, I'll play to my strength. So you declare that just as you run around the corner, he gets into a car and you note down the license plate. Or you say you have seen him in a pub once and start to look around there. Now it becomes a contest where you can use investigate and the perp will use driving/athletics/deceit or others, depending on how he tries to get away.
And then we come to thaumaturgy. It pretty much does exactly what the above does, only you use your magic skill instead of investigate. You declare that while the perp got away, you were able to grab him by the hair in the struggle and have some of it. And then you can follow him that way, and it becomes a contest where you use magic against the perp's attempt to shake you.
I know, this seems counterintuitive at first, since the perp can't really actively defend against your spell. It basically is there to represent how he is moving around to shake someone. You'll need to get to him, too, even if you know where he is. And while you move to his position, he can move as well, and you have to keep track of that, and so forth. It is a very dynamic situation, but I think that's exactly what makes it way more interesting than just gathering energy. You could even allow the wizard to spend consequences in order to boost a roll. Though come to think of it, everyone should be able to spend consequences in a contest. The perp, for example, could cash in a favor or something, that is represented as a consequence.
I hope you get what I mean when I say "thaumaturgy can be more versatile than what the DFRPG rules make of them."
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Ok point made. I understand - thaumaturgy should be handled narratively, rather than to simulate the process in game terms. In a roleplaying context, its harder to do that way though. It requires a lot of judgement calls by the gm as to what a players spell does because as the Gm you are saying, "ok, three hours later after a lengthy ritual, you now have a ward in place of x strength" How do define how powerful a spell would be ? I suppose its a case of the player stating what he wants to do and the gm coming up with a cost: whether thats time in research or having to do something dramatic or dangerous. Want to create a heart exploding spell? Well thats going to take a while to set up. You will need storms, energy from an orgy, blood sacrifice etc etc. According to the books, it seems relatively easier to create elaborate rituals. I cant seem to find anything that backs up the "gather power slowly and hope you dont screw up Discipline roll no 23 or your brain will explode" rules as they stand.
Its taking me a while to get my head around your concepts, but they may solve the tedium that is thaumaturgy. I think it may be helpful to create a guide as to what sort of effort is required for thaumaturgy, depending on what you want to do, and have that tied in some way to a players skills. Kind of a power level kind of thing. The player decides on a power level for the effect of their spell,which determines the cost the player must pay to get the ritual sorted. This effect is not automatic - this merely sets up a specific conflict, challenge or contest.
So something like this- admittedly, it needs a little work:
Choose a power level, up to your Lore. The also determines the kind of construct you need to create.
Average (+1)
Create a ward, veil or barrier that you can defend with your Will. Attack a target at range with Will. Conjure a small, simple item.
Construct: A symbolic link to your target and a minute or so to prepare a simple circle.
Fair (+2)
Create a ward, veil or barrier that you can defend with your Will+1. Attack a target at range with Will and Weapon Rating 2. Conjure a small, simple item.
Construct: at least two symbolic links, a ritual space such as a lab or library, an hour long ritual.
Good(+3)
Create a ward, veil or barrier that you can defend with your Will +2. Attack a target at range with Will and Weapon Rating 4. Conjure a small, simple item.
Construct: several symbolic links, a decent ritual space with good sized library, a ritual lasting several hours
Great (+4)
Create a ward, veil or barrier that you can defend with your Will +3. Attack a target at range with Will and Weapon Rating 6. Conjure a complex item, or several simple items.
Construct: Powerful symbolic links (fresh blood, child), an elaborate ritual space such as a lab or library, a night long ritual, blood sacrifice
Superb (+5)
Create a ward, veil or barrier that you can defend with your Will +4. Attack a target at range with Will and Weapon Rating 8. Conjure a very large complex item, or thousands of simple items.
Construct: Several Powerful symbolic links (fresh blood), an elaborate ritual space such as a lab or library, a day long ritual, leylines, sexual energy, human sacrifice.
Fantastic (+6)
Create a ward, veil or barrier that you can defend with your Will +5.Attack a target at range with Will and Weapon Rating 10. Conjure a huge complex item, hundreds of small complex items, thousands of simple items.
Construct: Several Powerful symbolic links (fresh blood), an elaborate ritual space such as a lab or library, a ritual lasting several days, leyline nexus point, sexual energy, human sacrifices
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Yeah, this idea of a narrative approach is a real brainteaser, I had a lot of trouble wrapping my head around it, too.
Now, it even bleeds over into other systems. :)
Which doesn't mean I have the eternal truth and all the answers, this is not supposed to be an "And thy lord sayeth thou shall play like this!" sort of thing, I just feel that people tend to over complicate things, me included.
One of the big question with Fate, and that goes double for Core: "What happens, when the roll fails?"
So here you are, prepared to start this great scene, where the wizard is going to chase down the bad guy with a spell...
...and the setup roll fails and you don't do the spell. Which reduces the overall coolness of the game, because you've just robbed yourself of this cool spell casting scene. Or you go ahead and do it anyway, but then what was that roll for?
For example, a player of mine wanted to create a pre-cast spell for a rescue mission. He wanted to have plants grow out of a prepared flower bed in a box, where he would sit in a circle in the middle. He wanted to have that thing pushed out of a truck into the building they needed to go in and catch all the bad guys with a 10 shift block in the relatively big cargo hall. He ended up having to gather 7 aspects to be able to fuel the spell, and that's where we left the last session. I went along with the block idea, because at the time, I felt it was the best thing to do.
But then I had a far better idea: I'll put those 7 aspects into use as 7 temporary fate points to buy powers and build a "plant creature", that the wizard can "turn" into like a were-creature. He then sits in the middle of this flower bed and goes through the scene fully controlling that bota-warrior. The alternative would have been him sitting there and concentrating on the spell, while the rest of the gang is off doing their stuff. Which is incredibly boring. Sure, he could have caught 50 bad guys easily with that version of the spell, but I can just as easily only put 5 guys in that scene and have him actively fight them. Way more action ergo way more fun.
Let's see what we can do with the things you mention.
Wards:
Mostly, this can be seen as an aspect on things. "Warded" on your apartment, for example. Then there are a number of ways you could go. The bad guys are coming after you, but you don't want to fight them, you could spend a fate point on you apartments "Warded" aspect and say "you know what, my character is beat up and tired, he needs rest. Let's say the wards keep them out, and we'll deal with things in the morning."
If you want to make it more interesting, for example in a conflict, you can make it a character at the power level of the wizard that cast it. So a wizard with his magic skill at good (+3) would get a ward character that has a skill pyramid up to good as well. Give it a stunt that allows it to take an attack instead of another character, as long as he is behind it, and you're done.
Or treat it as a contest. Harry vs. the zombies comes to mind. Harry's magic roll vs. Grevaine's magic roll. In this case, I think Harry even took a concession here, when they tried to make a run for it.
Veil:
Straight up "Create Advantage". The Aspect you create allows you to roll your magic skill for defense, just like you would with a shield, since it is just another type of shield, really. And it might grant you other opportunities, like being able to ambush someone.
Attack (or other lasting effects):
Make it a conflict, or a contest, depending on your taste. It's just not all that interesting to go *roll* "You're dead." This goes for pretty much every lasting effect. If you win the conflict or contest, the effect takes place, if not, you got a mean headache and the target got away. If you want to bring in weaponry, you can create advantages before you cast the spell, so that a specifically potent symbolic link could be a weapon:2 in that conflict. Too high a bonus, and you won't even have to roll (like your +6 bonus, that's 3 aspects on every roll for free).
Conjuring:
Usually, you don't conjure something just for the fun of it, it is part of solving a problem. So you just solve that problem with magic, with the usual rules, maybe a contest, maybe just an overcome action, and you describe it as conjuring something to help you. Grevaine, for example would roll an overcome action with magic to open a door and describe it as one of his zombies ripping it out of its hinges. Harry would describe it as blasting it open with sheer Forzare. A pyromancer might conjure up a magmaworm that crawls all over it and burns a hole into it. But they'd all face the same roll.
So, wall of text, I apologize, but I hope with the examples, you get what I am trying to say. Maybe it'll help you get more into the fate core spirit. :)
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So to make things clear, this is how you could handle thaumaturgy:
1. Take a number of create advantage actions. This represents the preparation of your ritual; as a rough guide, each action takes a scene (30 minutes) but could be longer depending on the skill used. You must have at least one symbolic link to your target, and for true ritual magic, items representing the five senses, elements and the heart and mind. For a short cut, you can inflict or take consequences; a mild consequence is worth one invoke, a moderate is worth 2 invokes, a serious is worth 3 invokes and an extreme consequence is worth 4 invokes (a human sacrifice would provide 10 invokes). Depending on the situation, the Gm may not need to actually have the player's roll all of these actions; he would just assign a number of invokes the player has, based on the time they are spending in preparation; around 1 invoke per hour, per player.
2. Depending on the nature of the spell, use Lore to make an attack, overcome action or create an advantage action, which can be in the form of a challenge, contest or conflict. When creating an aspect, such as a ward or veil, if there really isnt any drama or need to make a roll, just assume the aspect is created. Any aspects created are resisted by your Will.
In a way then, thaumaturgy acts as a kind of uber evocation. I would add the following effects:
Duration: Normally thaumaturgy lasts until the next sunrise. For each invoke used from preparing the spell, you can extend the spell's duration by one step: a day, a week, a month, a season, a year, a decade, a century, a millennium etc.
Range: So long as you have a symbolic link to a target, you can use your magic at great distances. This applies to divination, summoning and transformation/disruption magic; you couldnt create a ward on a building across a city, for example. The Gm may apply penalties for long distance transformation/disruption spells; maybe -1 per 100 miles.
Barrier Strength: Normally if a veil, ward or containment circle is attacked or being resisted, you defend with your Will. For wards you may also add the threshold of the protected area. Rather than using an invoke for a temporary +2 bonus or reroll, you may increases the barrier's strength by 1 for each invoke used. For wards, the Gm can limit this to the ley line strength of the area; Edinburgh, for example, probably has a ward strength of around 50, owing to the ley line nexus. Other locations will probably have far fewer; the gm can effectively set a limit for his campaign, to stop players amassing unbreakable wards for their homes.
Extras: Sometimes you want to create spells with a special effect; maybe a veil that allows one way sight or only works against vampires, or a ward that has a wardflame. Each extra should cost one or more invokes depending on the strength of the extra.
Area: Spells tend to have a larger area than evocation magic; Veils cover a car-size area, Wards are attached to a building, containment circles cover an area you mark out using chalk and attack-type spells affect one target. If it makes sense to the spell, you can use an invoke to increase the spell's area to cover an entire zone, plus one additional zone per invoke used.
For example, a number of white council wizards need to create a veil big enough to cover an entire conference centre, requiring an additional 10 invokes. If time was of the essence, the Gm could play this out for drama. Since this isnt the case, the Gm determines that since the wizards only have a couple of hours, they put up the veil with a ward strength equal to their highest Will (+6).
Water: Water hampers the effects of magic. Any long distance magic will simply fizzle out when passing over a large body of water. Rain will also hamper a spell caster, applying a penalty to all rolls; a light shower may be -1 or -2, heavy rain could be -3 or -4, and a torrential downpour could be -5 or worse (maybe roll four fate dice to determine the weather condition- any penalty denotes the amount of rain- of course thats more appropriate for weather in britain...). A Gm could also apply a penalty if casting a spell near a large body of water.
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So here are my current rules are I am playtesting at the moment:
Evocation Rules
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3SDKhovdJzjWERtSWpSOG1EOVE/edit?usp=sharing
Thaumaturgy Rules
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3SDKhovdJzjOGRCcHpKVmRPdWc/edit?usp=sharing