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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: arianne on May 02, 2013, 11:08:12 AM
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Just wondering what everyone is tired of seeing in urban fantasy (both for adults and young adults)?
I'm pretty certain that the word "vampire" is going to come up, so I'm going to put it out there first. I think a lot of people are tired of vampires and vampire romances.
Surfing through the internet I find that many people are not fans of the "Oh, I'm so plain and boring, but yet everybody loves me and thinks I'm beautiful" heroine, or the "Gosh, I'm really good looking and the author spends five pages out of every ten showing just how gorgeous I am" hero.
But anyway, what are your pet peeve hate UF cliches, and have you ever been pleasantly surprised by someone who took something you thought was way cliche and made it fresh and interesting?
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The "Woe is Me, Immortality sucks moose wang because its so boring" trope made so popular by Anne Rice. Especially in this day in Age, with the breakneck speed that society, science, and technology are all developing, there is no excuse for that kind of boredom beyond self-indulgence, apathy and laziness, methinks.
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This is yet another thing that Jim put his own spin on and made okay again.
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This is yet another thing that Jim put his own spin on and made okay again.
How so? I dont recall anybody that was noticeably whiny about it. Some were less up with the times than others, but that was about it as far as I can recall.
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Meant clichés in general. Most writers try to avoid them; Jim saddles them and rides them into the sunset.
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haha, ya, well said. Anyone who can manage to turn a Lois Lane-esk damsel in Distress into a tragic Hero superchick is doing something right. :)
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Zombies. I just don't get 'em.
Vampires have become somewhat of a tired cliche through overuse, but I still enjoy a well-written vampire story that brings something new to the table.
And I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm getting a little tired of the "all myths are real" trope; just because a particular story involves, for example, angels and demons, doesn't mean that vampires, Bigfoot, ghosts, aliens and the Fae also have to exist in that particular fictional world.
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Zombies. I just don't get 'em.
Have you read Mira Grant's "Newsflesh" series? For those not in the know, "Mira" is actually UF author Seanan McGuire, whose Toby Daye series is a peer of TDF, and the lady knows snark, epidemiology, the whole damn horror genre and how to spin a cliché back into something interesting. "Newsflesh" is easily one of my favorite series of the past decade.
And I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm getting a little tired of the "all myths are real" trope; just because a particular story involves, for example, angels and demons, doesn't mean that vampires, Bigfoot, ghosts, aliens and the Fae also have to exist in that particular fictional world.
I'm OCD enough that going the other direction, saying that one mythos obtains while others don't, bugs me; I can't see why just one could be true and no others. Plus, it takes a big pair (of cerebral lobes, duh) to take on all the world's mythology and at least make a nice dent in incorporating them. At the very least, it makes a wide-open, potentially HUGELY rich resource for the author when he doesn't just limit himself to one take on one mythos.
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Personally I'd like to see more protagonists that don't have all that many supernatural powers. I love underdogs, and there's no better way to create an underdog than put a regular guy up against sorcerers and monsters. That's partly why my Locked Within series is less focused on magic and more on the hero rediscovering his past.
Also I think "sex for power" has been a bit overdone. The Anita Blake books are arguably the worst offender here. I'm not against sex in fiction, by any means, but it feels a little skeevey that so many heroes get power-ups from sex with supernatural beings.
Oh, of course: Powerful monsters stalking young girls, controlling their behaviour, and generally being emotionally abusive, and this being depicted as romantic and a good thing. That needs to stop.
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haha, ya, well said. Anyone who can manage to turn a Lois Lane-esk damsel in Distress into a tragic Hero superchick is doing something right. :)
That comparison mildly irritates me because it kind of misses out on some of the better stuff that's been done with Lois Lane as a character this past forty years, which is admittedly not a majority of the Superman comics in that span, but still; there's been a lot more to her than damsel in distress.
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That comparison mildly irritates me because it kind of misses out on some of the better stuff that's been done with Lois Lane as a character this past forty years, which is admittedly not a majority of the Superman comics in that span, but still; there's been a lot more to her than damsel in distress.
Fair enough, Ill admit Im taking it mostly from that old Lois and Clark tv show. But there a WOJ somewhere where he said he made her a vamp mostly to avoid her becoming a lois lane in the sense of an overconfident reporter that keeps getting herself into hot water and requiring the Hero to bail her out.
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Man, that old Lois and Clark show was so much better before Lois found out Clark was Superman. After that she really became a wuss.
Funnily enough, I think take Susan out of the series so early made it harder for me to really like her character. Of course, I'm a Harry/Murphy shipper, so from the get-go I was set against Susan :P
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Have you read Mira Grant's "Newsflesh" series? For those not in the know, "Mira" is actually UF author Seanan McGuire, whose Toby Daye series is a peer of TDF, and the lady knows snark, epidemiology, the whole damn horror genre and how to spin a cliché back into something interesting. "Newsflesh" is easily one of my favorite series of the past decade.
I'm OCD enough that going the other direction, saying that one mythos obtains while others don't, bugs me; I can't see why just one could be true and no others. Plus, it takes a big pair (of cerebral lobes, duh) to take on all the world's mythology and at least make a nice dent in incorporating them. At the very least, it makes a wide-open, potentially HUGELY rich resource for the author when he doesn't just limit himself to one take on one mythos.
As a TV show I think Supernatural is doing it right as to lumping most mythos into one universe. They've even toyed around with Fae as well.
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For me, i'm not always a fan of the graphic sex scenes that seem to show up in a lot of UF, at least the series that I have come across. It's reached the point that I find myself suddenly at the next chapter. I do not mind fade to black style or something similar, but the graphic descriptions are a bit much at times.
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Levels of sexual content were a concern of mine when I was writing Locked Within. I didn't want to get too graphic because, really, that's not what my story was about. I wanted the scenes to serve specific roles in portraying character development and revelation, so I kept them very vague.
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I'm quite tired of vampires that are nice.
I like the vampires of Lost Boys, 30 Days of Night, David Welligntons stories. Vampires like that are great.
Zombies are getting tiring, I like the genre but most of the new stuff isnt adding anything to it. I will check out the series Shecky mentioned though because of who the author is =)
Mostly I just have had enough of nice monsters, I want mean nasty monsterous monsters.
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Right with you. I miss the days when vampires were something to be afraid of. One of the things I love about Dresden Files. The vampires are damn scary.
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Ya, werewolves are quite guilty of it also these days.
One thing I like, and would like to see more of, is authors making up new monsters and critters for their own universe instead of borrowing old mythos for everyhting.
I dont mind old myths, but its just a plus when I read a book were things are made up or at least when the author populates a story with things he/she created for them self.
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I play with that a little in Silent Oath. But I made a conscious choice to use inspiration from real mythology for the series. I love old mythology so I enjoy seeing reinterpretations from different authors.
But yeah, seeing some new monsters out there would be pretty cool.
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I never use to mind seeing the same myths re done in UF, but for me at least, I want new things right now. Now a story that has mostly established mythical critters but a few new ones is fine, and sometimes if the author puts their own spin on someting and makes it unique enough thats fine with me.
I just get tired of seeing the same things in each book i read. Its the same thing for fanatasy, in the years I've been reading fantasy I have had my fill of elves dwarves orcs and trolls.
Its not that its bad or that I wont read something with them, but if I am at the book store and in one hand I have a book of reused critters and a book of brand new ones in the other, I will tend to buy the book with new stuff just to see how something a bit different.
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I do like seeing different interpretations of myth. But I'd love to see something really new.
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That's the thing with UF is that with a lot of fantasy the classical "giants" of Fantasy has made it feel like things get recycled too easily. That's more of a problem with Epic/High Fantasy but it can bleed over into UF.
I wanted the scenes to serve specific roles in portraying character development and revelation, so I kept them very vague.
Thank You!!!
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Right with you. I miss the days when vampires were something to be afraid of. One of the things I love about Dresden Files. The vampires are damn scary.
Ah, but even there the vampires are separated into good (Susan, Thomas) and bad (Bianca), so they're not simply out and out monsters anymore.
The thing that currently frustrates me on a writing level is that whatever trait you give to your supernatural beings, somehow it can be twisted to feel like a vampire trait. Zombies who are undead and wandering around looking for someone to love and cherish instead of just bleating for brains; Fae who are seductively gorgeous, can predict the future, can fly etc etc...all end up sounding like imitations of vampires, even when they're not (if that makes any sense). There are only a fixed number of traits an author can go with, and even if you choose to work with a troll or some relatively-unheard-of mythical creature from an ancient civilization, it ALL ends up sounding slightly vampire-y. Is it just me? Or have vampires really taken over the world?
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Also, meant to ask this in my first post, but forgot: which plotlines are you starting to find cliche? I find that a lot of the Paranormal romances tend to include a lot of romance cliches, or things like those already mentioned by Wordmaker.
Does anyone else feel that the "parent/sibling as ultimate evil" storyline is cliche as well? ("I AM your father, mwhahaha")
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One thing I like, and would like to see more of, is authors making up new monsters and critters for their own universe instead of borrowing old mythos for everyhting.
I dont mind old myths, but its just a plus when I read a book were things are made up or at least when the author populates a story with things he/she created for them self.
^this. Mythos mining leaves me stone cold. More mythos mining at this stage simply weakens the source mythoi to the status of cultural baggage. Ripped, with broken handles and torn lining, stinking of the dump they're left on.
I am also sick to death of worlds and cultures that are just like ours except for the tiny little change of "oh and magic works".
The world as it is, politically, socially, technologically, economically, is simply too much a product of a certain series of outcomes, and if magic is at all relevant to it, then the outcomes would have tallied up differently.
Put another way, if the world is just like ours except for magic working then you will have immense trouble convincing me that anything magic-related in your books is possibly going to have an effect on the world as it moves past the events of your books.
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I'd like to see more good standalone novels. Not everything has to be a trilogy or an open-ended series (or in the case of movies, a franchise.)
A few plot-related things I could do with a lot less of:
-protagonists, male or female, who get to behave like assholes with no consequences whatsoever
-a protagonist who turns out to be the Chosen One, or indeed particularly "special" for any reason
-power creep to the point of absurdity (especially when powered up by sex, as many of you have already mentioned)
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I, for one, would seriously like to see an Urban Fantasy heroine who doesn't have multiple guys fighting over her. Unless you're trying to be a romance novel, what the hell is wrong with stable, healthy, long-term, relatively drama-free relationships?
... Also, what's up with there being no heroes in the world who have good families? In any genre? If there's a hero, their family is either dead or seriously messed up. Why?
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Also, what's up with there being no heroes in the world who have good families? In any genre? If there's a hero, their family is either dead or seriously messed up. Why?
Insta-angst. Just add trauma and stir!
(I'm not crazy about this particular trope either, and am subverting it in my mystery series: both protagonists had reasonably happy childhoods, and still have living parents and lots of relatives with whom they have good relationships.)
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Tired of vampires.
Really don't like modern braaaiiinnnns type zombies.
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I dont mind using existing mythos, but I am starting to get a little tired of the Norse tie-in. I understand that it is mostly my perspective as part of the Western, English speaking audience, but there are so many other mythologies to draw from besides the ever-present Norse and Greek. When was the last time you saw one that drew heavily from the Persian pantheon, for example. I understand the perspective of avoiding the more active religions like the Hindu or drawing from some of the more fantastic elements from the Koran (though that consideration doesnt seem to stop anyone away from the judeochristian side of things, oddly enough). But there are tons of rich, fascinating, and in this day and age relatively obscure pantheons and mythologies that rarely seem to ever pop up, unless they are footnotes in larger "everything exists" stories.
ok, weekend musings over :)
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The ancient Sumerian pantheon has some very interesting and nasty critters, as do the Mesoamerican mythologies.
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I keep waiting for Mister (in the Dresden files) to be tied
to Bast/Egyptian gods somehow.
(Though, in all fairness, I think the Norse Goddess Freya had a chariot
pulled by cats. - Just Googled it - two cats pulled her chariot.)
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When was the last time you saw one that drew heavily from the Persian pantheon, for example.
The closest I've got is Robert Silverberg's story of Gilgamesh the King. ?
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It might be that a lot of writers pick the pantheons they think
their readers are most familiar with.
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The closest I've got is Robert Silverberg's story of Gilgamesh the King. ?
Hadnt heard of it. Any good? Im in need of beach reading for a vacation next week.
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Fae who are seductively gorgeous, can predict the future, can fly etc etc...all end up sounding like imitations of vampires, even when they're not (if that makes any sense).
Which looks to me like the trend for Romantic Vampires basically stealing stuff from older depictions of Faerie in the first place.
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Which looks to me like the trend for Romantic Vampires basically stealing stuff from older depictions of Faerie in the first place.
I know; it feels like even when you're writing about something that is really truly seriously NOT a vampire, someone can point to one or two traits and say, "That's kind of vampire-y" even if it is nothing of the sort.
Really, if one were to tally up all the traits displayed by vampires in modern (romantic or not) fiction, pretty much ANYTHING goes.
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^this. Mythos mining leaves me stone cold. More mythos mining at this stage simply weakens the source mythoi to the status of cultural baggage. Ripped, with broken handles and torn lining, stinking of the dump they're left on.
I am in agreement with you on the vast majority of contemporary examples, but I'd not be without the exceptional minority.
I am also sick to death of worlds and cultures that are just like ours except for the tiny little change of "oh and magic works".
Oh, strongly agreed. Have I recommended DD Barent's Bloodhound Files in this context before ? (Series in which smart tough FBI profiler is, at the start of the first book, summoned into an alternate world where magic works, which has vampires, werewolves, and golems; billions of them, with humans a tiny minority ethnic group.)
Put another way, if the world is just like ours except for magic working then you will have immense trouble convincing me that anything magic-related in your books is possibly going to have an effect on the world as it moves past the events of your books.
Exactly; nor am i overly fond of settings that attempt to get around this by coming up with convoluted explanations for how it's the impact of the magic that has caused our world to be like it is.
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... Also, what's up with there being no heroes in the world who have good families? In any genre? If there's a hero, their family is either dead or seriously messed up. Why?
Loners are a lot easier to write without having to figure out complex real backstories, and messed-up families are a cheap and easy way to get trauma and angst.
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I dont mind using existing mythos, but I am starting to get a little tired of the Norse tie-in.
Maybe I'm not reading in the same space as you are, because I've not seen too much of that, but I really wince at versions that seem totally not to Get It. (I'm looking at you, American Gods.) I can think of a couple of good counterexamples, but not many.
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The closest I've got is Robert Silverberg's story of Gilgamesh the King. ?
Geoff Ryman's The Warrior Who Carried Life is a lovely weird feminist redaction of Gilgamesh.
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Maybe I'm not reading in the same space as you are, because I've not seen too much of that, but I really wince at versions that seem totally not to Get It. (I'm looking at you, American Gods.) I can think of a couple of good counterexamples, but not many.
Offhand Ive seen it in American Gods, Dresden, Iron Druid, as well as nearly every Urban fantasy television show Ive seen recently. And then there is the Avengers Thor that is getting so much screen time recently, though that admittedly isnt fair of me since the comic has been around for decades. In most cases I dont think it has been done poorly persay, but it would be nice to see one of the less euro-centric mythologies take more of a role in one of these.
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In most cases I dont think it has been done poorly persay, but it would be nice to see one of the less euro-centric mythologies take more of a role in one of these.
*Has a brief flash of mash-up amusement for the thought of a Yiddish Policemens Union that includes some of the raunchier elements from A Kayak full of Ghosts.*
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I suppose this isnt so much a plot theme, but I would enjoy a few more books done in third person in UF.
I don't mind first person at all, but UF is kinda overrun with first person stories and something different is always nice.
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*Has a brief flash of mash-up amusement for the thought of a Yiddish Policemens Union that includes some of the raunchier elements from A Kayak full of Ghosts.*
I'll be over here in the corner picking up the bits of my skull and fitting them back together after my brain exploded.
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I don't mind first person at all, but UF is kinda overrun with first person stories and something different is always nice.
I can't think of a contemporary UF Novel that isn't in first.
What I would like to see myself is more of the sort of things you can do with really strongly defined and interestingly unreliable first-person narrators that you see a lot in UF (Felix Castor, Jayne Heller, "Bob Howard", possibly Sandman Slim though I have no extra-textual reasons to believe that one's being done on purpose) being done in other streams of SF. Am working on it in the current project, but I can't write everything I'd like to read.
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My biggest pet peeves in UF:
- Unwanted romance. Not just sex, romance. When I read a book with a strong character, be they male or female, they don't necessarily need a significant other for the story to progress. And even if they did have a romantic partner, that relationship doesn't need a front and center description all the time. It's like in real life, how often do you go on and on about your amazzinnnnnnnnnng relationship at work? Because in an urban fantasy story, whatever the character is doing (fighting bad guys or hunting down clues to something that the bad guys did) it's all "work".
- Detailed descriptions of sex. Accepted that sex is something authors like to write about and people like to read about, but not in urban fantasy. Given the number of books out there with such scenes, we almost need a new sub-genre "Erotica with urban fantasy elements".
- Predictable use of other author's ideas. Let's talk about sparkly vampires for a minute. Those books have sub-par writing and a very horrible story line, but that aside, at least there's a different reason for vampires not going out in the sunlight. Take also for example, the Toby Daye books by Seanan McGuire. There's a whole dark side to the older Fae myths that is just fascinating. The stories are different and that's what makes the books so awesome. If the author has taken a species or a myth that has been done a million times before and changed nothing about it, I lose interest in the books.
- Lack of a sense of humour. I don't expect all books to be funny. Far from it. But I do expect at least the main character to have a sense of humour. Twisted jokes? Perfect. Silly jokes? Wonderful! After all, we read to get away from the humdrum reality of life. What better way than if you can chuckle at something?
I could go on and on, but that would make me sound like a whiny puppy. So I will stop. ;D
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- Detailed descriptions of sex. Accepted that sex is something authors like to write about and people like to read about, but not in urban fantasy. Given the number of books out there with such scenes, we almost need a new sub-genre "Erotica with urban fantasy elements".
I've heard them called "vampire shaggers"; I prefer the term "nosferotica" but I can't seem to get it to take off.
- Lack of a sense of humour. I don't expect all books to be funny. Far from it. But I do expect at least the main character to have a sense of humour. Twisted jokes? Perfect. Silly jokes? Wonderful! After all, we read to get away from the humdrum reality of life. What better way than if you can chuckle at something?
It depends on the characters, but certainly, there is a specific flavour of humour that people in dangerous jobs often develop to help cope, and more of that among urban fantasy characters in similarly dangerous situations would be appealing to me.
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I've heard them called "vampire shaggers"; I prefer the term "nosferotica" but I can't seem to get it to take off.
I'd much rather we didn't have to call them anything at all. ;) But yes, if there was a genre called Nosferotica, I may be tempted to pick one up one day.
It depends on the characters, but certainly, there is a specific flavour of humour that people in dangerous jobs often develop to help cope, and more of that among urban fantasy characters in similarly dangerous situations would be appealing to me.
Exactly. And that sense of humour is what helps us in real life, when things are not going exactly the way we want them to. Why should any character in a book be different? Because that's how you care about characters in books, when you can identify with them, be it one trait or all of them.
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I rather like the term "nosferotica' Neuro.
Maybe it's too high class for those who like that kind of thing. ::) ::)
I agree with all you said Spot and I don't think you're being a whinny puppy about it.
"Lack of a sense of humour. I don't expect all books to be funny. Far from it. But I do expect at least the main character to have a sense of humour. Twisted jokes? Perfect. Silly jokes? Wonderful! After all, we read to get away from the humdrum reality of life. What better way than if you can chuckle at something?"
A lot of cops and emergency responders have, what they call, gallows humor. They have to find
the funny in what are often grotesque and tragic circumstances - in order to stay sane.
I'm reminded of hearing the cockpit recording of a pilot trying to bring in a damaged plane.
The plane's complete hydraulics system messed up and he could only turn the plane in right hand
circles. Traffic control told him that they'd cleared one of the runways for him.
This calm voice from the plane - "Oh you want me on a specific runway - I was hoping just to
hit Kansas." Side note - they brought the plane down in a crash that looks horrific but a vast majority
of those on board, including the cockpit crew, survived. Further note: - in every test simulation
they've done of that particular crash - NOT ONE PERSON SURVIVED.
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I rather like the term "nosferotica' Neuro.
Maybe it's too high class for those who like that kind of thing. ::) ::)
Yes, they'd enjoy the vampire shagging. ;D
I'm reminded of hearing the cockpit recording of a pilot trying to bring in a damaged plane.
The plane's complete hydraulics system messed up and he could only turn the plane in right hand
circles. Traffic control told him that they'd cleared one of the runways for him.
This calm voice from the plane - "Oh you want me on a specific runway - I was hoping just to
hit Kansas." Side note - they brought the plane down in a crash that looks horrific but a vast majority
of those on board, including the cockpit crew, survived. Further note: - in every test simulation
they've done of that particular crash - NOT ONE PERSON SURVIVED.
Wow, just wow.
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Nosferotica may be my new favourite word. ;D
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Nosferotica may be my new favourite word. ;D
Are the nosferotics neckromantic?
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Are the nosferotics neckromantic?
"Oh, Harry," Mavra purred as we lay next to each other, spent. "No one has ever necromanticized me like you have."
"Truly, a worthy champion of Winter," Mother Winter said from my other side, her head laying gently on my shoulder.
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I just threw up a little in my brain...
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I just threw up a little in my brain...
I am honor-bound to repost it whenever the slightest chance presents itself.
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Sigh, rolls out several 55 gallon drums of Super Duckie Strength Brain Bleech.
Help yourself folks.
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Unwanted romance. Not just sex, romance. When I read a book with a strong character, be they male or female, they don't necessarily need a significant other for the story to progress. And even if they did have a romantic partner, that relationship doesn't need a front and center description all the time. It's like in real life, how often do you go on and on about your amazzinnnnnnnnnng relationship at work? Because in an urban fantasy story, whatever the character is doing (fighting bad guys or hunting down clues to something that the bad guys did) it's all "work".
Sometimes I wonder why it is people can slay vampires, hold down two part-time jobs on the side to pay the rent, untangle Fae politics, investigate mysterious murders on the side, and STILL have a romantic life....
I've heard people say that you should always add some romance to a storyliine to draw in the female readers, but speaking as a female reader myself, I'm fine with a story that doesn't have any romance in it.
Detailed descriptions of sex. Accepted that sex is something authors like to write about and people like to read about, but not in urban fantasy. Given the number of books out there with such scenes, we almost need a new sub-genre "Erotica with urban fantasy elements".
I've taken to skipping most of these. They're probably endlessly interesting to write, but seriously, after about the third "urban ero-fantasy" novel, you begin to realize that there really are only a number of things that can happen, and they very very seldom make any difference to the plot whatsoever.
Very very seldom = never.
Predictable use of other author's ideas. Let's talk about sparkly vampires for a minute. Those books have sub-par writing and a very horrible story line, but that aside, at least there's a different reason for vampires not going out in the sunlight
I keep hearing people say that this is original, but I could never see it myself. Sure, I've never heard of any other fictional vampires who sparkle (although I'm sure if I went digging hard enough I would probably find something similar somewhere--nothing new under the sun etc), but it didn't seem to make THAT big of a difference to me. I mean, the rest of the 99% of traits are still borrowed from someone else or mythical sources or wherever. JB's vampires feeding on lust felt more original to me than the sparkly-sparkle.
A lot of cops and emergency responders have, what they call, gallows humor. They have to find
the funny in what are often grotesque and tragic circumstances - in order to stay sane.
This makes total sense to me. If everything in your life is going crazy, something has got to give sooner or later. Either it comes out in gallows humor or your brain blows apart into piles of mush. And honestly in really bad situations what sort of horror/sympathy/pain/fear can you express that hasn't been expressed before, or can truly do justice to what has happened? Sometimes all you CAN do is be sarcastic or make sick jokes.
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Sometimes I wonder why it is people can slay vampires, hold down two part-time jobs on the side to pay the rent, untangle Fae politics, investigate mysterious murders on the side, and STILL have a romantic life....
I find it no less plausible than holding down a full-time job, a happy marriage, a complex and busy social life, several fairly active internet presences, a couple of other incidental hobbies, and still having time to write a new chapter or do equivalent amounts of other writing-related stuff about 85% of weeks (and catch up before or after the weeks that's not possible.)
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One thing I could do without is a main character that is broke/down on their luck, working dead end job, not sucessful. That sorta thing.
Seen it, its been done, can we move on.... its almost as annoying as stories about "the chose one"
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Okay, so taking into consideration all the peeves thus far aired, what can we come up with for a story? Let's start with the protagonist: (s)he must be the normal, well-adjusted product of a happily uneventful childhood, with lots of family and friends, a good-paying job, and a stable, long-term romantic/sexual relationship with someone who isn't a brooding but sexy vampire/werecreature/faerie/witch/wizard/whatever. (S)he most definitely is not the Chosen One nor is (s)he mentioned in any kind of cryptically worded prophecy. Any supernatural powers (s)he may have are not derived from sex. The paranormal threat/antagonist should be from a mostly unexplored mythology or a newly created one. And it has to be written in third person. What have I missed?
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well I would certainly be intreseted in reading a book like that, and if I was to come across one in my weekly trip to the book store it would come home with me simply because its new and fresh.
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I keep hearing people say that this is original, but I could never see it myself. Sure, I've never heard of any other fictional vampires who sparkle
"You're not using enough gunpowder."
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Okay, so taking into consideration all the peeves thus far aired, what can we come up with for a story? Let's start with the protagonist: (s)he must be the normal, well-adjusted product of a happily uneventful childhood, with lots of family and friends, a good-paying job, and a stable, long-term romantic/sexual relationship with someone who isn't a brooding but sexy vampire/werecreature/faerie/witch/wizard/whatever. (S)he most definitely is not the Chosen One nor is (s)he mentioned in any kind of cryptically worded prophecy. Any supernatural powers (s)he may have are not derived from sex. The paranormal threat/antagonist should be from a mostly unexplored mythology or a newly created one. And it has to be written in third person. What have I missed?
Interesting. You've ruled out a lot of the cheap-and-easy overdone ways of generating significant conflicts in UF; the next question I'd ask would be, what sort of significance can our protagonist have in, or to beings from, the underlying mythology without falling into Chosen One trope ? What gets those beings interested in the protagonist's life ? To my mind, it would have to be either a more subtle sort of mythological significance, or just some sort of random chance - I can totally buy story setups where one random coincidence drags the protagonist into contact with the rest of the story and everything else is consequence of that, but not really more than one.
(I am kicking around a UF notion myself, but it's not going to fit here because a couple of things in it are commenting on the tropes we are trying to explicitly avoid in this case; the protagonist isn't close to her birth family, and does not have many friends basically because she has some of the kinds of surety and stubbornness that many UF protagonists have but exists in a world where rather than this being admirable and heroic it is obnoxious and offputting to people, and while it gets her into trouble, it's very much not the means by which she gets out of it. Also she has no romantic life because she's essentially asexual and considers the whole idea vaguely icky and something that makes people behave stupidly.)
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Okay, so taking into consideration all the peeves thus far aired, what can we come up with for a story? Let's start with the protagonist: (s)he must be the normal, well-adjusted product of a happily uneventful childhood, with lots of family and friends, a good-paying job, and a stable, long-term romantic/sexual relationship with someone who isn't a brooding but sexy vampire/werecreature/faerie/witch/wizard/whatever. (S)he most definitely is not the Chosen One nor is (s)he mentioned in any kind of cryptically worded prophecy. Any supernatural powers (s)he may have are not derived from sex. The paranormal threat/antagonist should be from a mostly unexplored mythology or a newly created one. And it has to be written in third person. What have I missed?
I'll take a 3rd-person Case of The Toxic Spell Dump any time you feel like writing one...or a Khaavren romance ftm.
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I keep hearing people say that this is original, but I could never see it myself. Sure, I've never heard of any other fictional vampires who sparkle (although I'm sure if I went digging hard enough I would probably find something similar somewhere--nothing new under the sun etc), but it didn't seem to make THAT big of a difference to me. I mean, the rest of the 99% of traits are still borrowed from someone else or mythical sources or wherever. JB's vampires feeding on lust felt more original to me than the sparkly-sparkle.
OH I wasn't saying that those books were original, but that was the best example of a bad book I could give that overused someone else's ideas, and had one idea that maybe original. :)
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I'll take a 3rd-person Case of The Toxic Spell Dump any time you feel like writing one...or a Khaavren romance ftm.
I love the Case of The Toxic Spell Dump - that's a fun read.
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I'll take a 3rd-person Case of The Toxic Spell Dump any time you feel like writing one...or a Khaavren romance ftm.
If we're expanding "urban fantasy" to include fantasy set in cities across a wider range than what's currently generally called genre UF, I'll certainly second the choice of a Khaavren romance; or indeed, Swordspoint, The Malacia Tapestry or Walter Jon Williams' Metropolitan and City on Fire. (Brilliant books, those last, which not enough people have read. An entire planet covered by city in the Coruscant/Trantor mode, kept going by magic that works as a utility. WJW calls them Totally Urban Fantasy.)
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I'm presently doing the research for a story that I just realized pretty much fits all the criteria in my above post, though it may more accurately be called "magical realism" rather than UF. It features a single paranormal element in an otherwise conventional thriller, and the protagonist spends much of the story convinced that what he's experiencing is either a side effect of the medication he's on, or his subconscious trying to tell him something.
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I'm presently doing the research for a story that I just realized pretty much fits all the criteria in my above post, though it may more accurately be called "magical realism" rather than UF. It features a single paranormal element in an otherwise conventional thriller, and the protagonist spends much of the story convinced that what he's experiencing is either a side effect of the medication he's on, or his subconscious trying to tell him something.
Is it a made up world or does the story take place in our world.
Also, I see this often with horror
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Is it a made up world or does the story take place in our world.
Also, I see this often with horror
It's our world.
You mentioned horror; another example is the "Modern Gothic", aka "Had I But Known" or "Girl Gets House" genre, of which I've been reading a lot lately, specifically the ones Elizabeth Peters wrote as Barbara Michaels in the late Sixties through the Nineties. (This genre seems to have pretty much disappeared, BTW.) Often an otherwise mundane setting will have a ghost or other paranormal feature, and the characters tend to take a very sceptical, rational viewpoint, as opposed to accepting magic as a possibility right off the bat.
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It's our world.
You mentioned horror; another example is the "Modern Gothic", aka "Had I But Known" or "Girl Gets House" genre, of which I've been reading a lot lately, specifically the ones Elizabeth Peters wrote as Barbara Michaels in the late Sixties through the Nineties. (This genre seems to have pretty much disappeared, BTW.) Often an otherwise mundane setting will have a ghost or other paranormal feature, and the characters tend to take a very sceptical, rational viewpoint, as opposed to accepting magic as a possibility right off the bat.
Ya I really like those stories, I think a big thing is that using just one supernatural element and having it be a rare occurance in the setting lets the world work the way it is. I believe nuero mentioned a pet peeve about when magic is present but the world still works the same as it does in the real world despite hte pressence of magic or monsters and all that. I agree and find that super annoying.
However, if there is say 1 or 2 monsters, well that might not change the world anymore than your average pyscho/serial killer does. I mean one vampire could probably get by unoticed, now hiding an entire vampire civizaltion is bit different.
One thing I would like to see more is a mix of Horror with Urban fantasy. I think the two lend nicely to each other.
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OH! cant believe I forgot this one
Having a main character that is in some form of law enforcement. Its been done, some of the titans of UF did a good job with it, that doesnt mean I want to keep reading about it all the dang time.
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However, if there is say 1 or 2 monsters, well that might not change the world anymore than your average pyscho/serial killer does. I mean one vampire could probably get by unoticed, now hiding an entire vampire civizaltion is bit different.
A good example of this is PN Elrod's Vampire Files series--12 books so far, and the only paranormal creatures are vampires, portrayed as extremely rare (even prolonged blood exchange with a vampire is no guarantee that you'll become one when you die.) Oh, and there's a ghost--a bartender who was killed in a mob shootout--but she does very little except play with the lights and leave an occasional scent of roses.
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It's our world.
You mentioned horror; another example is the "Modern Gothic", aka "Had I But Known" or "Girl Gets House" genre, of which I've been reading a lot lately, specifically the ones Elizabeth Peters wrote as Barbara Michaels in the late Sixties through the Nineties. (This genre seems to have pretty much disappeared, BTW.) Often an otherwise mundane setting will have a ghost or other paranormal feature, and the characters tend to take a very sceptical, rational viewpoint, as opposed to accepting magic as a possibility right off the bat.
It is my impression, admittedly based on limited evidence, that that sort of thing very much peaked in the mid to late '70s.
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If we're expanding "urban fantasy" to include fantasy set in cities across a wider range than what's currently generally called genre UF, I'll certainly second the choice of a Khaavren romance; or indeed, Swordspoint, The Malacia Tapestry or Walter Jon Williams' Metropolitan and City on Fire. (Brilliant books, those last, which not enough people have read. An entire planet covered by city in the Coruscant/Trantor mode, kept going by magic that works as a utility. WJW calls them Totally Urban Fantasy.)
I would toss Perdido Street Station and Iron Council on that TUF heap.
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I dislike how traditional/outdated/slow to evolve some things are. Swords being the primary weapon of (non-magical)conflict, etc.
I find it no less plausible than holding down a full-time job, a happy marriage, a complex and busy social life, several fairly active internet presences, a couple of other incidental hobbies, and still having time to write a new chapter or do equivalent amounts of other writing-related stuff about 85% of weeks (and catch up before or after the weeks that's not possible.)
Soooo...not very many characters should be able to manage it so consistently? ;)
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I dislike how traditional/outdated/slow to evolve some things are. Swords being the primary weapon of (non-magical)conflict, etc.
That's one thing I like a lot about the Artemis Fowl series: the Fae have not only moved with the times, they're far more advanced technologically than humans.
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With Artemis Fowl, they always were more advanced than people, so when we are in the 21st century tech, they are so much farther ahead.
I also would like to find more series where there is magic, and it is used, but it's not a essential part of the series, ala Discworld. It exists, now move on.
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I dislike how traditional/outdated/slow to evolve some things are. Swords being the primary weapon of (non-magical)conflict, etc.
FWIW it's an absolute beeyotch to come up with a close-combat weapon better than swords - and then you run into the Everyone And Their Auntie Is An Expert problem telling you that they Know Olympic Sabre Fencers Who Would Mincemeat Your LaserHalfStaff/PlasmaAssegai Wielder. With A Spoon.
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"But why a spoon, Cousin?"
"..Because it's dull....and it will HURT MORE!!!"
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FWIW it's an absolute beeyotch to come up with a close-combat weapon better than swords - and then you run into the Everyone And Their Auntie Is An Expert problem telling you that they Know Olympic Sabre Fencers Who Would Mincemeat Your LaserHalfStaff/PlasmaAssegai Wielder. With A Spoon.
I actually do know somebody who fenced in the olympics. Multiple olympics, even. He did Epee though. 8)
I'm more referring to the stories where it's 'all out war for survival!' And the front line troops bring spears? At least give them a muzzle loading rifle with a bayonet or something.
You know, like they used 300 years ago. When cavalry carried pistols with their sword.
edit: I should say that while swords are fun, I subscribe to the Indiana Jones School. As does the olympian above, lol.
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I dislike how traditional/outdated/slow to evolve some things are. Swords being the primary weapon of (non-magical)conflict, etc
Given a society of immortals, it doesn't strike me as implausible, really. Supposedly part of the reason WWI was so pointlessly bloody was that the commanders tried to fight it like nineteenth-century wars, with a set of tactics that were on their way out even in the American Civil War. Now multiply that by lifespans four or five times as long (like Dresdenverse wizards) or thousands of years long or practically forever (vampires).... Also, a fast pace of innovation is really more the exception than the rule, taking human history as a whole.
The bigger problem to me is, in a lot of UF settings where the supernaturals have theoretically been around for ages, why did they ever let humans develop technology? The Dresdenverse has a powerful human organization which doesn't depend on technology for its power (the White Council), but lots of settings don't. If the supernatural world is mostly werewolves and vampires and maybe faeries ... it should still be ruled by those beings, and humans would never have gotten a chance to develop technology.
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Given a society of immortals, it doesn't strike me as implausible, really. Supposedly part of the reason WWI was so pointlessly bloody was that the commanders tried to fight it like nineteenth-century wars, with a set of tactics that were on their way out even in the American Civil War. Now multiply that by lifespans four or five times as long (like Dresdenverse wizards) or thousands of years long or practically forever (vampires).... Also, a fast pace of innovation is really more the exception than the rule, taking human history as a whole.
That's tactics, not adoption of technology.
The bigger problem to me is, in a lot of UF settings where the supernaturals have theoretically been around for ages, why did they ever let humans develop technology? The Dresdenverse has a powerful human organization which doesn't depend on technology for its power (the White Council), but lots of settings don't. If the supernatural world is mostly werewolves and vampires and maybe faeries ... it should still be ruled by those beings, and humans would never have gotten a chance to develop technology.
Oh, and the muses just struck.
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Also she has no romantic life because she's essentially asexual and considers the whole idea vaguely icky and something that makes people behave stupidly
This sounds very much like Adele Mundy in David Drake's RCN series. Admittedly this is science fiction rather than urban fantasy. The funny thing is if I were just to read your description, it sounds unappealing but Adele is one of my favorite characters.
However, if there is say 1 or 2 monsters, well that might not change the world anymore than your average pyscho/serial killer does. I mean one vampire could probably get by unoticed, now hiding an entire vampire civizaltion is bit different.
Have you read Dan Wells' John Wayne Cleaver trilogy? It's young adult but I would still highly recommend it.
My pet peeves in writing are more general than just UF but they still apply. I hate stories that are driven by the stupidity of the main character(s) unless they are humor or children's stories. I hate stories where the only reason that the protagonist manages to win is because the clearly superior villain keeps them around to alleviate boredom.
I agree with those that are tired of stories about The Chosen One or where the whole story revolves around a cryptically worded prophecy. I am tired of vampires that literally live off blood rather than the life force that blood symbolizes thus allowing them to get blood from blood banks or in bottles or in small amounts that do not hurt the victims. I am tired (and I have mentioned this elsewhere) of werewolves living in packs and large portions of the stories dealing with pack rules. I am tired of ancient magical beings with great knowledge and power suddenly realizing that the love of their life is an angsty teenage slacker with poor social skills and questionable intellect.
That is not to say that I haven't read good stories that have used these tropes. I am just tired of them.
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Given a society of immortals, it doesn't strike me as implausible, really. Supposedly part of the reason WWI was so pointlessly bloody was that the commanders tried to fight it like nineteenth-century wars, with a set of tactics that were on their way out even in the American Civil War. Now multiply that by lifespans four or five times as long (like Dresdenverse wizards) or thousands of years long or practically forever (vampires).... Also, a fast pace of innovation is really more the exception than the rule, taking human history as a whole.
The bigger problem to me is, in a lot of UF settings where the supernaturals have theoretically been around for ages, why did they ever let humans develop technology? The Dresdenverse has a powerful human organization which doesn't depend on technology for its power (the White Council), but lots of settings don't. If the supernatural world is mostly werewolves and vampires and maybe faeries ... it should still be ruled by those beings, and humans would never have gotten a chance to develop technology.
Read Gail Carriger's Parasol Protectorate series. The vampires are the reason that steampunk technology exists, because they funded it. (Very minor spoiler)
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Oh, and the muses just struck.
I'd be interested to see what you do with it...
I had the basics of a world along these lines worked out, but never did anything with it.
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Have you read Dan Wells' John Wayne Cleaver trilogy? It's young adult but I would still highly recommend it.
I bounced hard off it, because female characters as Rewards to Fight Over really do not work for me.
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I bounced hard off it, because female characters as Rewards to Fight Over really do not work for me.
They don't work for anybody, but are immensely in character for a sociopath... That and I don't think things actually work that way much... But there is plenty of potentially offputting things in those books.
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I'm pretty over the dom/sub, alpha/beta thing. There's not much new that's being brought to the table on that topic, and very few authors truly explore the idea in a rational way (as opposed to shallow kink fulfillment). I think Jacqueline Carey is the only one who has who I find interesting still.
I'm also tired of "bitchy" as being synonymous with "strong". I actually follow http://www.artofmanliness.com/ blog, and I'm a woman, because it's really not "the art of manliness" but "the art of being self-sufficient, a good person, and honorable" and I like those traits even as a woman.
Jim Butcher is actually writing more of what I'd consider "strong" female characters than many female urban fantasy writers I read, and that's WITH Harry running about attempting to rescue some of them!
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I'm also tired of "bitchy" as being synonymous with "strong".
Hear, hear.
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I once had this discussion with another writer about how I
was very, very tired of strong, eccentric women in scripts being portrayed as 'bitchy'.
A guy can be cantankerous and eccentric and he's just a character - a woman with the same
characteristic is usually portrayed/written as a bitch.
Many, not all, male writers don't seem to see or attempt to find the difference
between the personas.
One of the better male writers of female characters is/was James Schmitz.
(I particularly like the story - The Demon Breed also published as The Tuvela.)
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I once had this discussion with another writer about how I
was very, very tired of strong, eccentric women in scripts being portrayed as 'bitchy'.
A guy can be cantankerous and eccentric and he's just a character - a woman with the same
characteristic is usually portrayed/written as a bitch.
Many, not all, male writers don't seem to see or attempt to find the difference
between the personas.
One of the better male writers of female characters is/was James Schmitz.
(I particularly like the story - The Demon Breed also published as The Tuvela.)
Im with you, I think it is an important difference that more writers need to be aware of and strive for. That being said I think it is an important difference more /women/ need to be aware of and strive for. Too many people in literature and out of it dont seem to get that a woman can be one without the other.
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That's definitely something to be aware of and concerned about. Its not fair to portray one gender as raging and out of control for no reason and give the other a by for what is essentially the exact same behavior. That said there is a double standard at play we have to be aware of.
I mean if you had some of these 'raging' characters in the middle of their rant and you magically changed the gender of the character from female to male. I'd expect the other male characters to plant a knuckle sandwich in the face of some guy who went around emoting on them like that during certain high stakes situations. Whereas if you did that to a female character with anyone other than another female character you'd rapidly lose readers. No one want to see guys beating up on gals for being a (what was the wanes world term) psycho hose beasts :D Call it stereotypical because it is but its also the socially required thing to do. Whereas conversely if the 'eccentric' guy got a female beat down people might cry unrealistic but other than that you probably wouldn't get the same kind of abandon ship mentality.
With my character I try, as best I can, to play to the man woman differences as close to reality as I can and not to pick on any one side. The genders are different and if you embrace that in an everyone wins philosophy of looking at it, you can write a richer more fullfilling storyline.
I remember hearing about authors like c.j. cherryh who used to complain that there were no books for women out there. She had to mentally change the gender of the characters in order to put herself into the book and have fun. And then recognized in her own writing how she'd gone too far the other way when she observed that there were almost no male characters in her early books and the ones that were there, twirled on stage and left it just as quickly as possible.
People are different. Genders are different. Embrace the differences in no picking on way and I believe the stories will be a richer and better for it than if we try to 'norm' everything to the most common denominator.
The Deposed King
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That's definitely something to be aware of and concerned about. Its not fair to portray one gender as raging and out of control for no reason and give the other a by for what is essentially the exact same behavior. That said there is a double standard at play we have to be aware of.
I mean if you had some of these 'raging' characters in the middle of their rant and you magically changed the gender of the character from female to male. I'd expect the other male characters to plant a knuckle sandwich in the face of some guy who went around emoting on them like that during certain high stakes situations. Whereas if you did that to a female character with anyone other than another female character you'd rapidly lose readers. No one want to see guys beating up on gals for being a (what was the wanes world term) psycho hose beasts :D Call it stereotypical because it is but its also the socially required thing to do. Whereas conversely if the 'eccentric' guy got a female beat down people might cry unrealistic but other than that you probably wouldn't get the same kind of abandon ship mentality.
With my character I try, as best I can, to play to the man woman differences as close to reality as I can and not to pick on any one side. The genders are different and if you embrace that in an everyone wins philosophy of looking at it, you can write a richer more fullfilling storyline.
I remember hearing about authors like c.j. cherryh who used to complain that there were no books for women out there. She had to mentally change the gender of the characters in order to put herself into the book and have fun. And then recognized in her own writing how she'd gone too far the other way when she observed that there were almost no male characters in her early books and the ones that were there, twirled on stage and left it just as quickly as possible.
People are different. Genders are different. Embrace the differences in no picking on way and I believe the stories will be a richer and better for it than if we try to 'norm' everything to the most common denominator.
The Deposed King
Well said. And if you have a character that is bugging you for being too much of a gender stereotype, introduce another character of the same gender to act as a foil for the first. Stereotypes are overuse, but they come from somewhere; that psycho hose beasts certainly exists out there. If you think it is making a bad statement for the gender as a whole, add a character that balances it out and shows that there is a full spectrum of people out there.
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Yep. I was working on a YA book a while ago, and I'd made the main character's mother a single mom who was a fairly cold and unlikeable woman who treated her son badly because of a curse he was under.
His romantic interest was originally to have just her dad as a parent, and the town sheriff. But I realised that this could be read as saying that single moms can't handle the responsibility, so instead I made the sheriff a woman as well.
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I'm pretty over the dom/sub, alpha/beta thing. There's not much new that's being brought to the table on that topic, and very few authors truly explore the idea in a rational way (as opposed to shallow kink fulfillment). I think Jacqueline Carey is the only one who has who I find interesting still.
I totaly agree, its not that its a bad idea but its been done so many times I just want something new
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Yeah, I've been using some of the same techniques with "foils" to balance out my character casts...if I have a "minority" character of some type, and I see they're turning into a bad person, I try to insert a foil for them. So if I see my only woman in a certain set of characters is someone I don't like, I'll insert a foil for her. Or in one of my novels, I have a lot of Deaf people, so I try to run the gamut of personalities for them so as not to imply I'm correlating [bad trait] with [Deafness].
To return to the original topic...I also get irritated with shallow Urban Fantasy that doesn't give things a new twist or have any particular strength or new aspect to bring to the table. But I'm not sure there's much that can be done about it, because I recall when I was younger, you had the same thing going on with traditional fantasy, and also pulpy science fiction, where the shelves were flooded with mediocre work for whatever sub-genre was "in".
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Personally I'd like to see more protagonists that don't have all that many supernatural powers. I love underdogs, and there's no better way to create an underdog than put a regular guy up against sorcerers and monsters.
That actually sums up the premise of a story I'm working on. My main character works at the magical equivalent of an antique shop and is what you would consider a non-action guy (he's the bookkeeper) whose boss keeps dragging him along into dangerous situations so she can have someone do the grunt work. Doesn't help that she's got a history of being on the wrong side of the law and doesn't care much for staying on the straight and narrow, much to her lawyer's dismay.
Anyways, most of his antagonists are either physically or magically stronger than him, so he learns to defeat them through guile and trickery (a few times he learns it from being duped himself). I want to write it so that he'll get better at these methods as the story progresses, and the antagonists get more difficult to fool.
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Well I'm sold. Write it, get it published, and I'll buy it!
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the cliché I hate the most is the one of the evil vampire trying to be good unlike all other vampires. (I am sorry Thomas but you are a cliché)
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For me that one is just a matter of saturation. Im tired of basically ALL the vampire related cliches and most of the werewolf and zombie ones too.
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^
Yeah, verily yeah!
I'm with you on that one, Quantus.
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it would be interesting to do a urban fantasy that all you used was the cliché. basically only use stereotypes.
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it would be interesting to do a urban fantasy that all you used was the cliché. basically only use stereotypes.
Which is exactly how TDF began and got a publishing offer. It's not THAT you use clichés; it's HOW you use them. Jim's favorite example of this is Star Wars.
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Which is why I cannot wait for his take on steampunk! ;D