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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: narphoenix on February 21, 2013, 08:35:12 PM

Title: The Blackstaff
Post by: narphoenix on February 21, 2013, 08:35:12 PM: How would you price the Blackstaff in a game, and what powers would you give it? My mind is thinking +1 Power and Control for any "destructive" magic (taking a life, subverting a will transforming someone) and a Discipline call against acting the way the Blackstaff wants you to (based on Eb in Changes). But I'm far from sure.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Deadmanwalking on February 21, 2013, 08:40:19 PM: Well, it clearly makes you not get Lawbreaker...somehow. Beyond that, and probably providing some bonus on nasty offensive magics, I have no idea.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Mr. Death on February 21, 2013, 08:42:45 PM: I'd say that the Blackstaff "absorbs" or just already has all of the Lawbreaker powers, and therefore the penalties, aspects, and bonuses belong to the staff itself, rather than its wielder.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: narphoenix on February 21, 2013, 08:44:22 PM: Is anyone willing to do a full statting?
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Mrmdubois on February 21, 2013, 08:48:54 PM: Quote from: Mr. Death on February 21, 2013, 08:42:45 PM
I'd say that the Blackstaff "absorbs" or just already has all of the Lawbreaker powers, and therefore the penalties, aspects, and bonuses belong to the staff itself, rather than its wielder.

Oh, I like that. Really simple and it boosts all your spell casting with the staff to boot. Presumably it can be used as a Thaumaturgic as well as Evocation Focus too.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Dr.FunLove on February 21, 2013, 08:52:15 PM: I second the absorbing Lawbreaker/the staff itself being the Lawbreaker.

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Are we thinking that the big death spell Ebenezar pulls in Changes is a spell and not a power of the staff itself?
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Deadmanwalking on February 21, 2013, 08:52:53 PM: Quote from: Mrmdubois on February 21, 2013, 08:48:54 PM
Oh, I like that. Really simple and it boosts all your spell casting with the staff to boot. Presumably it can be used as a Thaumaturgic as well as Evocation Focus too.

It is -12 Refresh invested into one item, though, which always struck me as a bit excessive.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Mrmdubois on February 21, 2013, 08:55:46 PM: Quote from: Dr.FunLove on February 21, 2013, 08:52:15 PM
I second the absorbing Lawbreaker/the staff itself being the Lawbreaker.

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Are we thinking that the big death spell Ebenezar pulls in Changes is a spell and not a power of the staff itself?

Yeah it was a spell, unless you can come up with a power that just snuffs the life out of a zone full of gun men. Though I was more thinking the satellite he dropped on the Red Court at the end of Death Masks.

Quote from: Deadmanwalking on February 21, 2013, 08:52:53 PM
It is -12 Refresh invested into one item, though, which always struck me as a bit excessive.

You could do Modular Abilities instead or Sanctraphrax's Variable Abilities Lists. That would make it significantly cheaper and still useful. On the other hand, the Black Staff is pretty one of a kind so it makes sense it's pretty expensive.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Deadmanwalking on February 21, 2013, 08:58:53 PM: Quote from: Mrmdubois on February 21, 2013, 08:55:46 PM
You could do Modular Abilities instead or Sanctraphrax's Variable Abilities Lists. That would make it significantly cheaper and still useful. On the other hand, the Black Staff is pretty one of a kind so it makes sense it's pretty expensive.

Four times as much as a Sword of the Cross, though? That's always just seemed like more than it should be.

Modular Lawbreaker is an interesting idea...though you'd likely still need three for the full +3 bonus on everything. Though that is only -6 Refresh instead of -12. Hmmm.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Dr.FunLove on February 21, 2013, 09:02:37 PM: @Mrmdubois
That's some spell if that's the case...he literally through the off switch on all those gun men like he was turning off a bunch of toys.
Just more reason to like Ebenezar
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: narphoenix on February 21, 2013, 09:03:09 PM: I think, considering the fact that Jim almost come out an said that

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the Staff is MW's walking stick, I don't think it would help violate the 7th Law in particular.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Dr.FunLove on February 21, 2013, 09:05:43 PM: ...Really? I must have missed that...aweessomme.

So, death magic in the staff and something to insulate from Lawbreaker?
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Gilitine_Memitim on February 21, 2013, 09:06:49 PM: Well if you look at it there is a clear line with the rules. The first four are meant as guidelines on the rights of victims. Don't kill, transform, mind magic, or enthrall anybody. The last three belong in the it's just wrong category. Maybe there's something there.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Mrmdubois on February 21, 2013, 09:11:21 PM: Quote from: Dr.FunLove on February 21, 2013, 09:02:37 PM
@Mrmdubois
That's some spell if that's the case...he literally through the off switch on all those gun men like he was turning off a bunch of toys.
Just more reason to like Ebenezar

Well, with the bonuses from Lawbreaker and the fact that Ebenezar is also a plenty powerful wizard with a bunch of Refinements it probably wasn't that difficult. Depending on the element used it could have been trivial. Water or air or spirit could be used to create an aneurysm with just a tiny bubble in the brain. There are probably other ways to do it almost as easily with the other elements that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

Shift wise you're talking about mooks, so a zone wide effect that rolls off the end of their stress track is what 7 shifts I think? Resisted by Endurance I guess which likely isn't a top skill for them. Narratively there's no reason to avoid killing them so there's no reason to create a way they might have survived.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Dr.FunLove on February 21, 2013, 09:14:33 PM: @Mrmdubois
Totally agree...I just like the bad-assery on display. Tis one of my more favorite moments from that novel.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: bobjob on February 21, 2013, 11:42:08 PM: Quote from: narphoenix on February 21, 2013, 09:03:09 PM
I think, considering the fact that Jim almost come out an said that

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the Staff is MW's walking stick, I don't think it would help violate the 7th Law in particular.

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Now I must try to remember if Mother Winter had her walking stick in Summer Knight.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Mrmdubois on February 22, 2013, 01:18:15 AM: Quote from: bobjob on February 21, 2013, 11:42:08 PM
(click to show/hide)
Now I must try to remember if Mother Winter had her walking stick in Summer Knight.
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She didn't.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Quantus on February 22, 2013, 04:35:27 AM: fwiw, it also has that whole summonable ability. So unlike most Items of power you dont run the risk of getting it lost or stolen (at least without extraordinary crcumstances
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Taran on February 22, 2013, 04:43:28 AM: Quote from: Quantus on February 22, 2013, 04:35:27 AM
fwiw, it also has that whole summonable ability. So unlike most Items of power you dont run the risk of getting it lost or stolen (at least without extraordinary crcumstances

Maybe that's a curse and not a blessing...
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 22, 2013, 04:46:48 AM: Quote from: Deadmanwalking on February 21, 2013, 08:52:53 PM
It is -12 Refresh invested into one item, though, which always struck me as a bit excessive.

Taking every Lawbreaker is a massive waste of Refresh. If I had to guess I'd say 14 points of Lawbreaker provide roughly 5 Refinements worth of power.

So I think it'd be fair to make up a [-5] Power that does the same thing as 14 points of Lawbreaker.

Providing a 9 Refresh rebate for purely thematic reasons is usually a (very) bad move, but since Lawbreaker's cost has been inflated for thematic reasons I think it's okay in this case.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Deadmanwalking on February 22, 2013, 04:49:41 AM: Quote from: Quantus on February 22, 2013, 04:35:27 AM
fwiw, it also has that whole summonable ability. So unlike most Items of power you dont run the risk of getting it lost or stolen (at least without extraordinary crcumstances)

That doesn't necessarily follow, taking it from you may switch it's ownership to the thief, at which point they can summon it and you can't.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Mrmdubois on February 22, 2013, 06:12:25 AM: Quote from: Deadmanwalking on February 22, 2013, 04:49:41 AM
That doesn't necessarily follow, taking it from you may switch it's ownership to the thief, at which point they can summon it and you can't.

And that actually makes more sense since otherwise the original owner would just summon it back already.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Lavecki121 on February 22, 2013, 06:34:42 AM: Especially considering who is original owner is
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Quantus on February 22, 2013, 07:50:32 PM: Hence the words "extraordinary circumstances. My point is that you can be considered to have it at all times without having to actually carry the big stick around, if it slips from your hand you can probably call it back, and most likely it takes a conscious choice on the owner's part transfer ownership, or else serious mojo to take it by force. In terms of a tool, those are all very useful traits. Granted for the purposes of your game you could rule that if it is dropped or physically taken by force the person who did so can choose (or maybe is forced) to take up the Bond, those mechanics are up for interpretation. But the point is that it is a bonded weapon that you can have with you at any time in any circumstance, barring somebody specifically taking over the Role as Blackstaff
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: vultur on February 23, 2013, 03:55:54 AM: Quote from: Sanctaphrax on February 22, 2013, 04:46:48 AM
Taking every Lawbreaker is a massive waste of Refresh. If I had to guess I'd say 14 points of Lawbreaker provide roughly 5 Refinements worth of power.

So I think it'd be fair to make up a [-5] Power that does the same thing as 14 points of Lawbreaker.

Providing a 9 Refresh rebate for purely thematic reasons is usually a (very) bad move, but since Lawbreaker's cost has been inflated for thematic reasons I think it's okay in this case.

Possibly.

Or maybe it just protects you from getting Lawbreaker (without the Lawbreaker bonuses), plus acts as a normal Focus Item.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Arcane on February 23, 2013, 04:13:42 AM: How about Physical Immunity [Only To The Laws Of Magic ; +5] - 3 Refresh?
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Hick Jr on February 23, 2013, 04:34:46 AM: Considering the Laws don't cause stress of any kind, I'm not sure that works. But on that note, possibly a Feeding Dependency for the Lawbreaker bonuses? Ebenezar seems to take stress as he uses the Staff's power.
Title: Re: The Blackstaff
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 23, 2013, 05:25:40 AM: Yeah, you can't take Immunity to the rules of the game. Immunity stops stress and consequences. That's it.

And it wouldn't be fair to charge 3 Refresh for something non-humans get for free.