The Greeks personified vengeful fate as a remorseless goddesswell respected and older than zeus. she(its a she) is also attributed negative aspects though like
Nemesis believed that no one should ever have too much good, and she had always cursed those who were blessed with countless gifts.finally she has been described as abstract disease
Nemesis, winged balancer of life,
dark-faced goddess, daughter of Justice,
and mentioned her "adamantine bridles" that restrain "the frivolous insolences of mortals."
"Also deadly Nyx bore Nemesis an affliction to mortals subject to death."moving on....
assigned to every being by eternal laws might take its course without obstruction. The gods and men had to submit to them,this jives with a woj about everybody listening to MS for fear of MWs' shears. fyi athropos is the name of the fate in charge of using the shears to "end" a fate(death... even for gods) MS is likely clotho, in charge of spinning life and choosing the time for things to enter this world. much as MS with her jar of wormwood(?). so the fates basically have dominance over every being in existence, besides outside beings.
the three Moirai(fates) are personified, and are acting over the gods.
Very cool idea, but remember: the only time you should split a post into multiple parts is if it goes over the character limit. In addition to reducing general clutter, this makes it easier for folks to reply to your ideas.
"Malice slithered up my spine and danced in spiteful shivers over the back of my neck. I could sense the thing's hostility — not just the mindless anger of a fellow boy I'd needled beyond self-restraint, or Justin's cold, logical rage. This was something different, something vaster, more timeless, and deeper than any ocean. It was a poisonous hate, something so ancient, so vile, that it could almost kill without any other action or being to support it, a hate so old and virulent that it had curdled and congealed over its surface into a stinking, staggering contempt.
This thing wanted to destroy me. It wanted to hurt me. It wanted to enjoy the process. And nothing I said, nothing I did, would, ever, ever change that. I was something to be eradicated, preferably in some amusing fashion. It had no mercy. It had no fear. And it was old, old beyond my ability to comprehend. It was patient. And if I proved to disappointing to it, I would only break through the veneer of that contempt — and what lay underneath would dissolve me like the deadliest acid. I felt...stained, simply by feeling its presence, stained as if it had left some hideous imprint or mark on me, one that could not be wiped away.
And then it was behind me, so close it could almost touch, its outline towering over me, huge and horrible.
And it leaned down. A forked tongue slithered out from between its horrible shark-chain-saw teeth, and it whispered in a perfectly low, calm, British accent, "What you have just sensed is as close as your mind can come to encompassing my name. How do you do?"
Interesting theorie, especially on the Starborn part.
Consider that Mab became the Winter Queen in the time the last starborn walked the earth.. And that is the same time probability says it became Mab responsability to guard the outergate.. It means that the Starborn at the time did something that changed the current guardians...
On another subject? Is there somewhere where the KC interview is posted entirely?
Only problem is that the original Nemesis was clearly in the Greek pantheon and thus among the "old gods" to which the texts have made multiple references. Or are you postulating Outsiders spending enough time on Earth in the classical era to earn reputations as gods alongside the "regular" pantheon?
It's not out of the question that Outsiders can be banished to beyond the gates during any point in history. Though, that then begs the question, why does DR exist, if undesirable immortals can be sent beyond the gates.
Take your theory and apply Hesiod's opinion that Nemesis was actually the daughter of Nyx (Not Zeus). Then plug in that Nyx is actually Mother Winter...and you have a problem child (one of many, by the way). You, also, have Mother Winter as the oldest of the old, and the mother of the fates (as well as a whole collection of conditions...including death, doom, sleep, old age, friendship, love, etc...).Which explains why it seems to be Winter's lot to hold back and clean up the mess of one of her children.
Which explains why it seems to be Winter's lot to hold back and clean up the mess of one of her children.
Not sure that follows from my comment. I was questioning the basic concept that Nemesis could have been an Outsider all along, and only peripherally whether an Outsider can stay for long in our world. Also, "immortal" does not equate to "Outsider".
I was going along the lines of Nemesis being a deity, and Outsiders are more or less Old Ones and their minions, so a slight misstep in my wording.
What I'm saying is, I think the Outsiders were not always Outsiders, their removal from reality to beyond the gates is what made them Outsiders, and this removal is some process that may occur to different entities at different points in history.
We know that one of Nemisis's other names is Lord of Slowest Terror. (Blood Rites, the chant that invoked He Who Walks Behind, who is said to be Lord of Slowest Terror's Right hand.)
Is Nemisis or Lachesis associated with slow terror? If not, it might put a crimp in your theory.
Or not. I just thought I'd point this out.
We sure that the Old One HWWB follows and Nemesis are the same entity?
As a side note, only 19 more likes to the Evil Hat page and we get another rpg teaser. Anyone who has a Facebook account and hasn't liked Evil Hat, I ask that you do so now.
I was going along the lines of Nemesis being a deity, and Outsiders are more or less Old Ones and their minions, so a slight misstep in my wording.
What I'm saying is, I think the Outsiders were not always Outsiders, their removal from reality to beyond the gates is what made them Outsiders, and this removal is some process that may occur to different entities at different points in history.
Interesting idea. A bit our-universe-centric, though; it would seem to indicate that the Outside exists not in and of itself but purely in relation to our universe. I see no reason to assume that Outsiders don't come from the Outside.
(I think the use of the term "Outside" is part of the problem here. It does implicitly state that the Outside is defined by its relation to our universe. The problem, then, is one of lack of objective frame of reference; I suspect that "Outsiders" simply call their universe "the universe" and ours "the Outside", as the perspective of here-vs.-there [i.e., the inescapable omnipresence of subjectivity] defines the way we think about everything.)
Beyond the gates, to my understanding, means outside of reality. I don't think we can be sure yet if it's outside of OUR reality, or outside of ALL realities. We know that there are beings/immortals who exist and understand existence beyond a single universe, there may be foils to those beings on our side beyond the Outer Gates, meaning the Outer Gates aren't bound to a single universe, but the battle to keep them out exists in all universes.
I guess a question I'd have for Jim is, did multiple universes always exist in the DV, or only once mortals and free will came into being?
Only problem is that the original Nemesis was clearly in the Greek pantheon and thus among the "old gods" to which the texts have made multiple references. Or are you postulating Outsiders spending enough time on Earth in the classical era to earn reputations as gods alongside the "regular" pantheon?well its an idea of mine that beings of a certain caliber can continue to exist outside our reality. things that lose their grip on reality through the oblivion war exist as a shadow of themselves. simply that before an inside existed outsiders came set up shop and inadvertantly created our reality(this is what appears to have happened in Cthulhu Mythos)
I think you could make a pretty good argument that Mother Winter was behind the construction of Demonreach (if she's Nyx) since she used to have a home in Tartarus. It might, also, be the reason Harry needs to go to Hades, since Tartarus is Hades' basement.
Still, I wouldn't think Nemisis (the Greek god) would be considered forgotten enough, to negate existence. So, maybe the Outer Gates don't have any effect on the Oblivion War.
For this, I think you have to look at the philosophical make-up of Nemesis. It was her job to take entities down a peg. She was/is retribution for hubris. I think it's fair to say that the old pantheon as well as a significant number of other long ago Gods/ Goddesses would feel anger towards mortals (as an example) for the ease in which they turned away from them. There is obvious hubris in that. In truth, there has even been an active organization trying to assure that is the case ( The True Venatoris). I don't find it any stretch of the imagination to assume that even though Nemesis might not be at risk of being forgotten in total personally...there aren't quite a few Gods, Goddesses, gods, and goddesses who are approaching the cusp of banishment. Many more have already faced it. So, I don't think Nemesis would have to be an "Outsider" at all to perform as is her nature...especially since she probably was well familiar with many of the Gods, Goddesses, gods and goddesses that no longer exist in reality because mortals no longer recognize them personally or historically.
It would also explain how this war with the "Outsiders" has been going on forever.
Of course, if Nemesis was smart, she'd just update Wikipedia on a regular basis. :o
Only problem is that the original Nemesis was clearly in the Greek pantheon and thus among the "old gods"was rereading things. are you saying you think the greek pantheon is outsider related? or that the 'old gods' were forced out of reality? the 'old ones' or 'great old ones' is an outsider lovecraft thing.
"Great Old Ones" a loose pantheon of ancient, powerful deities from space who once ruled the Earth and who have since fallen into a deathlike sleep.of which Cthulhu is the most (in)famous. the order would be outergods, great old ones, the primordial gods(or titans if prefered) who make existence like Kronos and gaia, greek god pantheon, then newer deities and incarnations.(totally ignoring the so called 'elder gods') not sure were jim would put dragons precisely, or other castes/pantheons i'm not familiar with.
I think that what we have stumbled upon here is a coincidence. Nemesis could as easily be reference to the Lovecraft poem of the same name.eh? never read that one... can you give me a highlight? i would say i don't believe in jim making coincidences but after the 'disappearing amulet'... well you know.
Through the ghoul-guarded gateways of slumbergives credence to this idea i had that cowl is Nyarlathotep (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyarlathotep) as cowl controls ghouls. and Nyarlathotep is described as
a "tall, swarthy man" who resembles an ancient Egyptian pharaoh.keeper of the deathly sleeping great old ones. he who causes people to lose awareness of reality(nemesis infection?) and acts as a intermediary between deities and followers.(madrigal) obviously he can't be an outsider but what about an outside mantle? would explain his interest in defying death as he could then awaken cthulhu from his sleeping dead state.
A Great Old One's influence is often limited to the planet where it dwells. If it is based on a planet outside the solar system, it can only extend its influence to Earth when the star of its planetary system is in the night sky.could harry have been born under the sign of Cthulhu as i was born a scorpio? :o (probably not Cthulhu, but tomato, uhhh tomato... lol)
For this, I think you have to look at the philosophical make-up of Nemesis. It was her job to take entities down a peg. She was/is retribution for hubris. I think it's fair to say that the old pantheon as well as a significant number of other long ago Gods/ Goddesses would feel anger towards mortals (as an example) for the ease in which they turned away from them. There is obvious hubris in that. In truth, there has even been an active organization trying to assure that is the case ( The True Venatoris). I don't find it any stretch of the imagination to assume that even though Nemesis might not be at risk of being forgotten in total personally...there aren't quite a few Gods, Goddesses, gods, and goddesses who are approaching the cusp of banishment. Many more have already faced it. So, I don't think Nemesis would have to be an "Outsider" at all to perform as is her nature...especially since she probably was well familiar with many of the Gods, Goddesses, gods and goddesses that no longer exist in reality because mortals no longer recognize them personally or historically.
It would also explain how this war with the "Outsiders" has been going on forever.
Exploring the possibility that the "Outsiders" are discarded minor deities, spirits, and regional/local entities of worship that have been cast out of reality due to a lack of any sort of recognition, one could extrapolate that the entities held on Demonreach are truly the most dangerous...and had they been cast out of reality to the plain of "empty night" where the war is going on, the "Outsiders" would be much stronger...and potentially, too strong. Instead of a hive mentality, they would have leaders, generals, and improved strategy. So, those held on Demonreach had to be kept separate.I see Outsiders owning the universe before the big bang happened, lots of of nice empty night. Then God and His buddies, the other various gods and goddesses, archangels, angels etc, butted in and created the heavens, the earth, planets, stars, galaxies, etc, then mucking it up further with all matter of life forms... All the Outsiders want, is their playground back, things were so much more simple then...
Does that make any sense?
I see Outsiders owning the universe before the big bang happened, lots of of nice empty night. Then God and His buddies, the other various gods and goddesses, archangels, angels etc, butted in and created the heavens, the earth, planets, stars, galaxies, etc, then mucking it up further with all matter of life forms... All the Outsiders want, is their playground back, things were so much more simple then...
I see Outsiders owning the universe before the big bang happened, lots of of nice empty night. Then God and His buddies, the other various gods and goddesses, archangels, angels etc, butted in and created the heavens, the earth, planets, stars, galaxies, etc, then mucking it up further with all matter of life forms... All the Outsiders want, is their playground back, things were so much more simple then...
Isn't there a WOJ about the outsiders being the Old Ones and their minions? As well as a comment on when/what they ruled?
Not WoJ, but a few comments throughout the series. Do you want me to go fetch the comments?sure if your up to it, please.
sure if your up to it, please.
Outsiders, though, were so rarely spoken of that they were all but a rumor. I wasn't really clear on all of the details, but the Outsiders had been the servants and foot soldiers of the Old Ones, an ancient race of demons or gods who had once ruled the mortal world, but who had apparently been cast out and locked away from our reality.
mmm well i'd really like to know the specifics of this war and why/how it started. who would be nice too, though i'd guess the dragons did the casting unless there is an unrevealed older faction.
mmm well i'd really like to know the specifics of this war and why/how it started. who would be nice too, though i'd guess the dragons did the casting unless there is an unrevealed older faction.
I just discovered this thread. I actually speculated about Nemesis being the third Fate here: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35014.msg1689507.html#msg1689507 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35014.msg1689507.html#msg1689507) but I didn't put anywhere near the research into it that you did. Nicely done WN.thanks ;D i've discovered if i'm going to wag something i'd better research it so its easier for others digest my out on a logical limb idea's. plus its easier to keep them from being picked apart if i've already thought out all the loopholes and covered them.
I loved the Lovecraft poem.
Nyarlathotep, however, is active and frequently walks the Earth in the guise of a human being, usually a tall, slim, joyous man. He has "a thousand" other forms,
Nyarlathotep uses human languages and can be mistaken for a human being.no he does stuff with his own hands it seems to me. to clarify nemesis is probably Nyarlathotep and cowl is his chosen avatar. kinda like the direct line as opposed to having all of his power in one thing. still think it would equal out at cowl being Nyarlathotep more or less. in Nyarlathotep first appearance he gathers followers who lose touch with reality while its implied the world has gone apocalyptic without anyone realising in their stupor. idk though i've only really started studying lovecraft in the last two months. when ducky pointed out to me the connection. previously i'd owned a necronomicon tarot though... i threw the creepy bastards in the trash after some weird stuff with them.
to expand on my line of reasoning and WAG off the wall a little nemesis might also be morgana herself, the missing queen of the trifecta. possibly previous ruler of the fomor when they were still associated with the sidhe. i know this isn't precisely consistent but i could ignore morgana no longer, especially with mab being morgause.
she's not missing, she's dead. that was her dagger Lea got in GP; WOJ is the prior winter lady.. possibly her... had a bad end last time a starborn was around.i know its her dagger. doesn't mean she was WL, it wouldn't be congruent to have two sister queens with the 3rd just a lady. morgana isn't precisely the kind to take orders. don't you think its significant its HER particular dagger through which nemesis first appears?
i know its her dagger. doesn't mean she was WL, it wouldn't be congruent to have two sister queens with the 3rd just a lady. morgana isn't precisely the kind to take orders. don't you think its significant its HER particular dagger through which nemesis first appears?
maybe. but I think it was a trap; when you trap something, you put it in something the other person wants.. aka its cheese.good point on the trap. disagree on the youngest queen setting for 'lady'. besides youngest doesn't equal weakest(fyi i'm the youngestof 4, i know) especially if lea thought merely holding the anthema would be enough to take on mab. interestingly this means nemesis intended lea to challenge mab and take her place. installing a sleeper agent as the general against outsiders. very bad.
Morgan Le Fey was the youngest of the three sisters in the legend. having her be lady to her older and scarier sister morgawse ..fits.
(Kumori puts a hit on him being cowl thus).i don't understand...? but kimori working with cowl doesn't negate a nyarl connection, every incarnation of him is different. ever read stephen kings dark tower? according to nyarl wiki randall flagg was nyarl. i didn't know this from reading it at all. as kimori seems to be working with him based on very skewed perceptions deception is involved probably. nyarl doesn't have to be precisely as depicted elsewhere as jims flavor of reality would definitely shift his character. possibly nyarl doesn't have the power inside the gates he should? its better said that nemesis is nyarl and cowl is his vessel, especially as harrys feel of his magic is that its human and not the greasier stuff used by black court or others. mmm notice black magic is discribed with the same (if lessened) feel as outsiders are? ahhh i wonder...
not really bad ass per se just more active in getting stuff done. i don't understand...? but kimori working with cowl doesn't negate a nyarl connection, every incarnation of him is different. ever read stephen kings dark tower? according to nyarl wiki randall flagg was nyarl. i didn't know this from reading it at all. as kimori seems to be working with him based on very skewed perceptions deception is involved probably. nyarl doesn't have to be precisely as depicted elsewhere as jims flavor of reality would definitely shift his character. possibly nyarl doesn't have the power inside the gates he should? its better said that nemesis is nyarl and cowl is his vessel, especially as harrys feel of his magic is that its human and not the greasier stuff used by black court or others. mmm notice black magic is discribed with the same (if lessened) feel as outsiders are? ahhh i wonder...