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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: potestas on January 18, 2013, 04:49:36 AM

Title: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: potestas on January 18, 2013, 04:49:36 AM
Brought up in another thread I opined that I don't care much for the rules when it comes to magic. Why you might ask:  Wizards have at best 4 spells per engagement with the possibility to flub them fairly easily. If they decide to go balls to the walls to take out some really big bad they have even less. This makes them about level 2-3 in the old dungeon and dragons system. Remember when a first level wizard could only memorize one spell and it was almost always charm person so you could have some one fight for you at for a round.(which would be breaking the laws of magic and so someone would come and cut your head off just cause you were trying to stay alive. ) Maybe you choose magic missile but either way after that you where poking things with your dagger.

True the DFRPG wizards can do some nifty things with the 3-4 spells they have, if they have enough power and if they roll well and if the target doesn't roll well. To many ifs. I Like magic, I like roleplaying games with magic in them, I like my wizards nice and powerful, its one of the reasons i hate MMOs  the guy with the stick is always tougher then the guy who can bend nature to his will and wipe out a continent. Really who would spend years studying the arcane when a guy with the club always wins. In most role playing games this is well reflected and no game reflected it better then Ars Magicka, wizards were top and the magic system is a blast.

I just can't get passed the idea that your limited to 3-4 spells. It doesn't matter how creative you are with them or what they can do in theory, you basically cast one defensive spell and hope it will last a few passes of the engagement. and you have 1-2 shots at taking out the bad guy.

An example defense in action: say you end up with a legendary roll: you have a block of 8 for one pass and then you have to roll again and gain another mental stress. Or you can reduce the block to 6 and have the spell last for 3 passes. Provided it isn't brought down early if the bad guy roles well. And what nasty in the Dresden world couldn't beat a block of fantastic.

I just can't see how the white court brought down the entire red court of vampires. This system is not meant for large scale engagements. Every few minutes the wizards have to hope their not in combat so their mental stress can reset, how does that happen in pitched battle. In the books when lucio is killing zombies with little blasts of flame very pin point stuff, harry even comments on how much control that takes. But she did it over and over again without rest, try that in the game. The game rules do not reflect what the book says these wizards can do. If we want we can describe our spells that way but the effect in no way will match what we describe. the power of the spell has to be broken up over all the targets. So a legendary effect becomes 2 good effects and a fair effect against only three targets. Maybe they die maybe they don't either way i got 1-2 spells left after that one and the defensive one i had to cast or i would have been killed at the beginning of the first pass because anything that's not human is faster and stronger.

Its true we have some enchanted items that really even up things but we really can't cast spells we just carry a lot of junk along with us. Then add the silly rules of magic into it and you got a lot of effects you can't even use against run of the mill bad guys. I just threw those out, what fun is  playing a mage if you cant polymorph someone or read their mind to find out if there the ones your looking for. Just plain ick thats what its is.

Now with all my feeling about the magic system you might ask why bother playing. I love urban fantasy, I can't decide which world is better The hollows or Dresdens I like playing in it. I only wish the magic system lived up to the books.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Deadmanwalking on January 18, 2013, 05:15:24 AM
Quote from: potestas on January 18, 2013, 04:49:36 AM
Brought up in another thread I opined that I don't care much for the rules when it comes to magic. Why you might ask:  Wizards have at best 4 spells per engagement with the possibility to flub them fairly easily. If they decide to go balls to the walls to take out some really big bad they have even less. This makes them about level 2-3 in the old dungeon and dragons system. Remember when a first level wizard could only memorize one spell and it was almost always charm person so you could have some one fight for you at for a round.(which would be breaking the laws of magic and so someone would come and cut your head off just cause you were trying to stay alive. ) Maybe you choose magic missile but either way after that you where poking things with your dagger.

I think you're misunderstanding how mental stress from spells works. Say I'm starting character Harry Dresden, from the book. I have an effective Discipline of 4 and Conviction of 6 for Fire magic.

My Mental Stress track looks like this: OOOO (+1 Mild Consequence).

Now, let's say I'm going, as you put it, 'balls to the wall' and throwing out 9 shift of power to, say, burn down a building full of vampires. I've been through some shit, and have 3 FP to spend on this, making my success pretty damn likely, so I do it, making a Weapon 7 attack at  8 or 10 shifts on the entire scene. That's pretty impressive, even for the FP expenditure, and a lot better than non-Wizards get without literal heavy artillery (Grenades are only Weapon 4, after all), and potentially kills dozens of vampires all on it's own, since it's Zone Wide and nasty.

And here's the part where I think you misunderstand, because after this my mental stress track looks like this:

OOOX (+1 Mild Consequence).

Meaning I can do three more spells easily this combat. 4 if I'm willing to take a Mild Consequence (something like 'Tired' or 'Seeing Stars' or 'I Can Taste Purple') and 5 if I'm willing to take two of those. And even more if I'm willing to really get hurt doing it.

And I can do this every fight. Okay, the Consequences might not be available every fight, but the Stress is, and the consequences go away pretty damn quick since they're mild. I've just been re-reading the entire Dresden Files, and I can't think of an actual single encounter where Harry uses more than 4 spells and isn't tired as hell or punchy as hell afterward. That's what Mild Consequences look like.

Quote from: potestas on January 18, 2013, 04:49:36 AM
True the DFRPG wizards can do some nifty things with the 3-4 spells they have, if they have enough power and if they roll well and if the target doesn't roll well. To many ifs. I Like magic, I like roleplaying games with magic in them, I like my wizards nice and powerful, its one of the reasons i hate MMOs  the guy with the stick is always tougher then the guy who can bend nature to his will and wipe out a continent. Really who would spend years studying the arcane when a guy with the club always wins. In most role playing games this is well reflected and no game reflected it better then Ars Magicka, wizards were top and the magic system is a blast.

Yes, because Dresden always vastly overshadows Murphy, who's totally not in his league, combat-wise. And Harry's never run out of magical juice and resorted to mundane attacks. Wait, neither of those is true at all.

And those 'few shots' you get are miles better than those provided by almost anything else. Legendary attacks at Weapon 8 on a starting character are possible. Fantastic ones at Weapon 6 are common, at least at Submerged.

Quote from: potestas on January 18, 2013, 04:49:36 AM
I just can't get passed the idea that your limited to 3-4 spells. It doesn't matter how creative you are with them or what they can do in theory, you basically cast one defensive spell and hope it will last a few passes of the engagement. and you have 1-2 shots at taking out the bad guy.

Play someone with Sponsored Magic then. They can take a point of Sponsor Debt instead of a mental stress, if they like. This is how Harry's been managing a lot of his endurance as a spellcaster since Blood Rites.

Quote from: potestas on January 18, 2013, 04:49:36 AM
I just can't see how the white court brought down the entire red court of vampires. This system is not meant for large scale engagements. Every few minutes the wizards have to hope their not in combat so their mental stress can reset, how does that happen in pitched battle. In the books when lucio is killing zombies with little blasts of flame very pin point stuff, harry even comments on how much control that takes. But she did it over and over again without rest, try that in the game. The game rules do not reflect what the book says these wizards can do. If we want we can describe our spells that way but the effect in no way will match what we describe. the power of the spell has to be broken up over all the targets. So a legendary effect becomes 2 good effects and a fair effect against only three targets. Maybe they die maybe they don't either way i got 1-2 spells left after that one and the defensive one i had to cast or i would have been killed at the beginning of the first pass because anything that's not human is faster and stronger.

Luccio is actually using a finger-thin whip of fire in that scene...which sounds like a great  narrative for a zone-wide Evocation in context. Also, the correct way to handle major engagements is as several actual scenes, with Stress refreshing between them. The game's designers have explicitly endorsed this view, with the duel followed by the big fight in the Deeps in White Night as their example, with those clearly two separate scenes. You need to remember that Fate is narratively based and so are it's scene breaks.

Quote from: potestas on January 18, 2013, 04:49:36 AM
Its true we have some enchanted items that really even up things but we really can't cast spells we just carry a lot of junk along with us. Then add the silly rules of magic into it and you got a lot of effects you can't even use against run of the mill bad guys. I just threw those out, what fun is  playing a mage if you cant polymorph someone or read their mind to find out if there the ones your looking for. Just plain ick thats what its is.

So...you object to the Laws of Magic, too? What about the Dresdenverse's magic do you like?
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 18, 2013, 05:24:05 AM
In my experience, the average PC Wizard has really powerful Evocations and makes frequent use of zone attacks.

As such, I've found that Wizards don't need to use all four mental stress boxes unless they're facing something really tough. One spell is often enough.

And of course, Thaumaturgy can do anything.

My opinions and experiences are not abnormal. If you want, I can dredge up a whole bunch links to people complaining that Wizards are broken.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Hick Jr on January 18, 2013, 05:31:02 AM
Hell, I could probably dredge up a dozen"wizards are broken" topic. Across at least three different boards.

And I think FATE does Dresden better than any other system. I mean, DND 3.5 sure as hell isn't doing it.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Magicpockets on January 18, 2013, 06:46:36 AM
Wait a second... Aren't you taken out if all your stress boxes are marked?
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Deadmanwalking on January 18, 2013, 06:52:05 AM
Quote from: Magicpockets on January 18, 2013, 06:46:36 AM
Wait a second... Aren't you taken out if all your stress boxes are marked?

No. If all your stress boxes are marked and you get hit again in that area and you don't reduce that hit to nothing with one or more Consequences, then you get taken out. Someone with their stress boxes full is vulnerable to attack in that area...but by no means out of the fight.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: blackstaff67 on January 18, 2013, 12:51:22 PM
We've started out Chest-Deep immersed in our own DFRPG, and while the two wizards are only throwing out 6(!) shift Evocations, I'm pretty sure if they wanted to tweak their builds they could up it to 7 or 8--which is still incredibly powerful to a vanilla mortal .  Using the building example, figure they'd spend 2 shifts to make a Zone wide attack on it--that still makes a 5 or 6 shift attack on everything in the Zone, and that's not taking FP's into account.

In the example of Warden Luccio, it looks and sounds like she called up a 7 or 8 shift attack (not unreasonable for a wizard of her age and experience), reduced it to cover a Zone (or two, hard for me to tell), targeted them with her rather high Discipline (probably a 6 or better--again, not unreasonable for her training), perhaps spent ONE FP--and cut the lot of them off at the knees.  All that for one point of stress.   And still a bad-ass with that Warden's Sword of hers.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on January 18, 2013, 01:06:03 PM
You mention how poorly Fate models large scale engagements.  Honestly, most systems do.  D&D blows at it.  And when the RPG was written, there weren't many large scale engagements in the books.  There still aren't. 
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Haru on January 18, 2013, 01:19:37 PM
I have to say, I find that it is quite easy to model large scale engagements, if you keep in mind the "treat everything as a character" way of thinking that Fate encourages. If you have a group of wizards going up against a group of red court vampires, just create two characters that represent the two factions. Since they are by and large a homogeneous group, they will use the same basic mechanics. In a group of vampires, everyone will have claws and speed and such, the wizards will all have spellcasting abilities. Powers like "Hulking size" can represent an advantage in numbers, while "diminutive size" could represent a small elite force. You can then have those meta-character fight do the fight, instead of a multitude of regular characters, and 1 spell made by the meta-wizard will translate to a few dozen fireballs slung around by the various wizards on the battleground.

Your Players could meanwhile be at a key point of the battle at which you "zoom in" and have a regular conflict with the bad guys, and the outcome of this event will be a huge factor in deciding the meta-conflict.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Tarion on January 18, 2013, 02:10:43 PM
Quote from: potestas on January 18, 2013, 04:49:36 AM
I just can't get passed the idea that your limited to 3-4 spells. It doesn't matter how creative you are with them or what they can do in theory, you basically cast one defensive spell and hope it will last a few passes of the engagement. and you have 1-2 shots at taking out the bad guy.
Can you give me an example where Harry uses much more than that, in a single fight?

Spoilers through to Turn Coat. 

(click to show/hide)

There's a reason Harry carries his gun, and uses force rings.  There's a reason Wardens carry swords.  Harry pushes himself to the limit of his casting in virtually every book, and he does it with just a couple of spells per encounter.  The rules match the game system pretty damn well, as I see it. 
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Haru on January 18, 2013, 02:40:36 PM
Quote from: Tarion on January 18, 2013, 02:10:43 PM
There's a reason Harry carries his gun, and uses force rings.  There's a reason Wardens carry swords.  Harry pushes himself to the limit of his casting in virtually every book, and he does it with just a couple of spells per encounter.  The rules match the game system pretty damn well, as I see it.
Oh, forgot that topic altogether. Scatterbrain...

You could also look at enchanted items as an extension of the limits of mental stress. If you store the
spells you cast most often in enchanted items, you have a pretty good arsenal at your hands. In narrative terms, it won't make much difference, if you use your rod as a focus item, or if you use it as an enchanted item, it will always be a fireball, and it will always require your blasting rod. You can just do more of them.

There's also been the idea of powers as specialized spells. In this case, the breath weapon power could be easily adapted to an "improved fireslinger" power, which would allow you to throw around low powered fireballs indefinitely. Instead of weapons, use discipline to aim, so it is pretty much indistinguishable from spells.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Mr. Death on January 18, 2013, 04:19:03 PM
Yeah, I think you're kind of misinterpreting how stress works. Remember that it resets completely if the wizard has so much as a minute to catch his breath. So provided he gets at least a little rest between them, a wizard can theoretically throw dozens of spells around in a day. Whereas when a DnD wizard has blown his load, he has to rest for 8 hours to recover and reequip his spells.

I've seen creative wizard player characters get a lot of mileage out of their stress boxes, and it's been my experience that combat rarely lasts more than four or five rounds anyway.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: JDK002 on January 18, 2013, 04:56:59 PM
In the 3 scenarios I've GM'ed, I've never once had my wizards gas themselves out unless there is some other factor in the fight that's affecting their mental stress track.  In my experiences the biggest problem wizards have is when the enemies survive the initial onslaught.  If the casters take even a mild consequence, their next spells effectvenesa can be far less effectve, or even compelled into totally screwing up the spell.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: fantazero on January 18, 2013, 05:02:55 PM
I guess if Fate isnt the best system (hint, I think it is) what is the best in your opinion?

Also as for the White Court attacking ect
White Council has higher refresh
Warden Often carry Mundane Weapons (Swords, Grenades , Pistols ect)

I'd say I wish the magic system was a wee bit simpler but thats what the new Fate system is for  ;)
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: finarvyn on January 18, 2013, 11:20:20 PM
I'd love to see the Dresdenverse done using Amber Diceless. Not quite as complex as FATE but still free and loose to play...
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: potestas on January 19, 2013, 12:39:42 AM
we ll defended and you are all correct I am new to the series and do not completely understand the rules. Which is one of the reasons i posted, to see how you all interpreted the rules.

I cant say I like the magic laws Just don't, not even in the books and intend to play them more as guidelines rather then thou shants. That is peoples intentions weight more then peoples actions.

Thank you though well said all of you.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Dougansf on January 19, 2013, 01:04:23 AM
Quote from: finarvyn on January 18, 2013, 11:20:20 PM
I'd love to see the Dresdenverse done using Amber Diceless. Not quite as complex as FATE but still free and loose to play...

I'd much rather see the Amber setting in a Fate system.  :)
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: UmbraLux on January 19, 2013, 02:25:28 PM
Quote from: potestas on January 18, 2013, 04:49:36 AM
Brought up in another thread I opined that I don't care much for the rules when it comes to magic. Why you might ask:  Wizards have at best 4 spells per engagement with the possibility to flub them fairly easily. If they decide to go balls to the walls to take out some really big bad they have even less. This makes them about level 2-3 in the old dungeon and dragons system. <snip>
Just picking at nits but wizards have 4 spells per scene which are a) extremely flexible and potentially fit any scene; and b) are the most powerful attacks available on a per refresh basis.

So yeah, four spells per scene.  That's the only major drawback.  (Needing dedicated skills is minor.)  Comparing to D&D as you did, it's like being able to pick any spell of any level to cast...only better since you can tailor them to fit.

Quote
An example defense in action: say you end up with a legendary roll: you have a block of 8 for one pass and then you have to roll again and gain another mental stress. Or you can reduce the block to 6 and have the spell last for 3 passes. Provided it isn't brought down early if the bad guy roles well. And what nasty in the Dresden world couldn't beat a block of fantastic.
As others noted, wizards are better off using enchanted items for blocks.

Quote
I just can't see how the white court brought down the entire red court of vampires. This system is not meant for large scale engagements. <snip>
Not really sure I'd rely on the novels to be recreatable by the game but:
(click to show/hide)

Quote
Now with all my feeling about the magic system you might ask why bother playing. I love urban fantasy, I can't decide which world is better The hollows or Dresdens I like playing in it. I only wish the magic system lived up to the books.
I don't think any game ever really recreates the feel of a novel.  DFRPG did a better than average job at trying but games and novels have completely different methods and processes. 

When it comes to novels, I recommend Ilona Andrews' "Kate Daniels" series and Seanan McGuire's "October Daye" series (and the previously mentioned Mercy Thompson series).  They rank with Dresden for quality and entertainment.  :)
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Tush Hog on January 20, 2013, 08:24:01 PM
I ran a game focused on wizards and not set particularly in the Dresdenverse. I used Toughness Powers for the mental stress track like those for the physical. I think I just called them inhuman, supernatural and mythic spellcaster or something.

Wizards could then sling around lots of spells and only tired when reaching well above their normal capabilities or when they couldn't control what they drew in.

It was fun and the wizards were bad news. After doing this, I would probably give the heavy hitters like Ebenezar and the Merlin these powers.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Wyntonian on January 20, 2013, 10:01:47 PM
Quote from: Tush Hog on January 20, 2013, 08:24:01 PM
I ran a game focused on wizards and not set particularly in the Dresdenverse. I used Toughness Powers for the mental stress track instead of the physical. I think I just called them inhuman, supernatural and mythic spellcaster or something.

Wizards could then sling around lots of spells and only tired when reaching well above their normal capabilities or when they couldn't control what they drew in.

It was fun and the wizards were bad news. After doing this, I would probably give the heavy hitters like Ebenezar and the Merlin these powers.

That... is freaking borked. I mean, if it worked for you in your wizard-focused game, hey more power to ya.  But in anything else... my brain hurts to consider it.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: potestas on January 21, 2013, 12:35:34 AM
Quote from: Tush Hog on January 20, 2013, 08:24:01 PM
I ran a game focused on wizards and not set particularly in the Dresdenverse. I used Toughness Powers for the mental stress track instead of the physical. I think I just called them inhuman, supernatural and mythic spellcaster or something.

Wizards could then sling around lots of spells and only tired when reaching well above their normal capabilities or when they couldn't control what they drew in.

It was fun and the wizards were bad news. After doing this, I would probably give the heavy hitters like Ebenezar and the Merlin these powers.

i like it since i prefere wizards to any other type
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: vultur on January 21, 2013, 12:54:45 AM
I think Eb accomplishes what he does more by only needing one spell to kill pretty much anything rather than really extreme endurance. In Changes, he moved thousands of tons of stone with one force blast and killed 200 human servants of the Red Court by waving the Blackstaff at them.  And in Turn Coat, it talked about how the Senior Council members there (including Eb) could have been brought down by numbers even of pretty weak minions (Fae spiders and Binder's gray men).
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Deadmanwalking on January 21, 2013, 12:59:40 AM
Yeah. Ebenezar's endurance is probably on par with Harry's, but no better. He's just vastly more effective on a per-spell basis.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Hick Jr on January 21, 2013, 01:07:06 AM
IF they were cars, they would have the same gas tank capacity, but Ebenezar would have a lot more gas mileage.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Wyntonian on January 21, 2013, 01:43:41 AM
Quote from: Hick Jr on January 21, 2013, 01:07:06 AM
IF they were cars, they would have the same gas tank capacity, but Ebenezar would have a lot more gas mileage.

And a really freaking huge engine. Cuz. Y'know. Moving thousands of tons of stone.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Mr. Death on January 21, 2013, 05:56:50 PM
Better analogy is that they're both pump action shotguns, but while Ebenezer is a 10 gauge firing solid slugs, Harry's a 20 gauge firing birdshot.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: tymire on January 21, 2013, 06:31:17 PM
Quote
I just can't see how the white court brought down the entire red court of vampires. This system is not meant for large scale engagements. 

Not really sure I'd rely on the novels to be recreatable by the game but:


(click to show/hide)


Not too sure I agree with you on the ninja mechanic.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Deadmanwalking on January 21, 2013, 06:44:17 PM
Yeah...I'm less than surprised that some of the scariest Wizards on earth can take on an army when backed up by various Deities, Archangels, and similar things.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 21, 2013, 07:39:39 PM
Quote from: potestas on January 21, 2013, 12:35:34 AM
i like it since i prefere wizards to any other type

It's not usually a good idea to deliberately unbalance the game in favour of your favourite character type.

For the approach I prefer to mental durability Powers, see the Custom Power list.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: potestas on January 22, 2013, 02:24:57 AM
Quote from: tymire on January 21, 2013, 06:31:17 PM


(click to show/hide)


Not too sure I agree with you on the ninja mechanic.

(click to show/hide)

forgot about the god and the archangel, i think the red court had pissed off a lot of other critters aside from the human wizards.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Tedronai on January 22, 2013, 04:30:14 AM
Don't forget them also having the next best thing to a Faerie Queen helping them out.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Hick Jr on January 22, 2013, 05:13:40 AM
Lea is explicitly stronger than Maeve. So, better than a Faerie Queen.

Unless you were referring to Queen as in that specific member of the trio, in which case i'm a goober.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Tedronai on January 22, 2013, 05:17:02 AM
You're a goober.  But I won't hold it against you.

Lea is said to be second only to Mab as far as sheer power is concerned among the Winter Court.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Theonlyspiral on January 22, 2013, 03:41:38 PM
Quote from: Tedronai on January 22, 2013, 05:17:02 AM
You're a goober.  But I won't hold it against you.

Lea is said to be second only to Mab as far as sheer power is concerned among the Winter Court.
Ignoring (obviously) the Mothers. I cannot see any way that Mab (never mind Lea) could outgun Mother Winter.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: thorr-kan on January 23, 2013, 10:53:08 PM
Well, FATE seems to fit the setting pretty well, but I can think of at least two other rule sets that would fit.

First, there's In Nomine from Steve Jackson Game.  I'd use the following mapping:
Evocation magic is Coporeal Songs.
Thaumaturgy is Sorcery; some addition skills/rituals necessary.
The Nevernever is the Ethereal and all its denizens.
The various vampires can be handled by various Discords.
You'll need to decide if the "known" supernatural landscape is accurate or if the default IN cosmology applies.
Voila; instant campaign setting.

Second, a d20 system could work.  Before I heard about DFRPG, I was noodling around with a DF setting.  I'd use:
d20 Modern, with the E6 limitations (nobody gets more that 6 levels; add'l XP buys feats)
Green Ronin's True Sorcery for Evocation
The Incantation rules from Zombie Sky Press, Unearthed Arcana, and d20 Modern for Thaumaturgy.
Do some template work for your supernatural races.
Voila; instant d20 setting that can be DF or similar games with the serial numbers filed off.

*Any* rule set can be used for any setting with some work.  Shoot, the Friday Night Gaming Group plays Prep and Landing games every Christmas using Call of Cthulhu rules.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Aminar on January 23, 2013, 11:05:31 PM
Quote from: finarvyn on January 18, 2013, 11:20:20 PM
I'd love to see the Dresdenverse done using Amber Diceless. Not quite as complex as FATE but still free and loose to play...
I hate you right now.  Mainly because Amber Diceless is...  Unweildly.  Awesome in concept, but unweildly.

The only place I really see this as a problem is villanous spellcasters.  I can have a 30 refresh uber wizard, but he can't defend and attack at the same time well enough to handle 6 7 refresh PC's.  (Although the fact my villains average a roll of -2 might play a part there.)
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Deadmanwalking on January 24, 2013, 04:41:51 AM
Quote from: Aminar on January 23, 2013, 11:05:31 PM
I hate you right now.  Mainly because Amber Diceless is...  Unweildly.  Awesome in concept, but unweildly.

This is true. It can be made less so...but it's a lot of effort.

Quote from: Aminar on January 23, 2013, 11:05:31 PM
The only place I really see this as a problem is villanous spellcasters.  I can have a 30 refresh uber wizard, but he can't defend and attack at the same time well enough to handle 6 7 refresh PC's.  (Although the fact my villains average a roll of -2 might play a part there.)

Are you using Blocks with Duration and/or defensive Enchanted Items? Those are the way spellcasters survive, so if not...
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Mr. Death on January 24, 2013, 03:44:39 PM
I don't see how that's possible. At 30 refresh, you should be able to throw enough power into a spell to seriously cripple at least a couple of those 7-refresh PCs at a time, and should be easily able to create a block that they can't get through without at least a couple maneuvers.

At 30 refresh, you should be able to cast 10-shift evocations without breaking a sweat. Or have minions.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Aminar on January 24, 2013, 04:05:37 PM
Quote from: Mr. Death on January 24, 2013, 03:44:39 PM
I don't see how that's possible. At 30 refresh, you should be able to throw enough power into a spell to seriously cripple at least a couple of those 7-refresh PCs at a time, and should be easily able to create a block that they can't get through without at least a couple maneuvers.

At 30 refresh, you should be able to cast 10-shift evocations without breaking a sweat. Or have minions.
Was a necromancer specializing in Mind Control.  His drummer was dead from a previous session and I couldn't roll crap.  I'd set spells so a negative 1 would succeed and roll negative 3.  Then the PC's would roll 4's.  I mentioned the bad dice right.  He wasn't the crowning moment of awesome for the session anyways(That was the Fetch version of Maleficent the Dragon lurking in front of Cinderella's Castle while he prepped the Darkhallow testrun.)
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Richard_Chilton on January 24, 2013, 08:27:53 PM
Quote from: Aminar on January 23, 2013, 11:05:31 PM
I hate you right now.  Mainly because Amber Diceless is...  Unweildly.  Awesome in concept, but unweildly.

Fred has stated several times that FATE evolved from some things that he was doing Amber.

The biggest problem mixing the DV and Amber is finding a reason to stay in the DV.  Keeping PCs from popping out to get something or trumping home for a meal.  Then there's always the always popular "I go to a fast time Shadow that is completely safe, heal, and trump back in a minute or so".

The second biggest problem is PC scale.  In Amber the average PC can toss an easy chair across the room and two of them could pick up a 70's car (all metal and heavy as hell) and carry it.

While it can be adapted, you'd almost have to rewrite the stat system or in Proven Guilty Harry and Molly would have the same strength score (human).

Speaking of Diceless, there's a new Diceless book coming out.  Due to issues with the Zelazny estate it's not set in Amber but in a cosmos where you travel the Shadows...er, I mean travel the "Realms" by means of a stairway.

Richard
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Lavecki121 on January 24, 2013, 08:53:55 PM
Quote from: Aminar on January 24, 2013, 04:05:37 PM
Was a necromancer specializing in Mind Control.  His drummer was dead from a previous session and I couldn't roll crap.  I'd set spells so a negative 1 would succeed and roll negative 3.  Then the PC's would roll 4's.  I mentioned the bad dice right.  He wasn't the crowning moment of awesome for the session anyways(That was the Fetch version of Maleficent the Dragon lurking in front of Cinderella's Castle while he prepped the Darkhallow testrun.)

Well you still should be able to do something. Additionally you could have him roll plot (though some people dont like that)
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Aminar on January 25, 2013, 01:26:42 AM
Quote from: Lavecki121 on January 24, 2013, 08:53:55 PM
Well you still should be able to do something. Additionally you could have him roll plot (though some people dont like that)
I know.  There are things I could have done.  But in the end it came down to Wizards are really squishy.(And I hadn't figured out the enchanted item block trick yet so shields just sucked.)
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Wyntonian on January 25, 2013, 01:30:45 AM
Quote from: Mr. Death on January 21, 2013, 05:56:50 PM
Better analogy is that they're both pump action shotguns, but while Ebenezer is a 10 gauge firing solid slugs, Harry's a 20 gauge firing birdshot.

Does that make Molly a Super Soaker full of LSD?
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Aminar on January 25, 2013, 01:46:51 AM
Molly's a Flashbang.

Entendres everywhere.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 25, 2013, 03:58:22 AM
Quote from: Mr. Death on January 24, 2013, 03:44:39 PM
I don't see how that's possible. At 30 refresh, you should be able to throw enough power into a spell to seriously cripple at least a couple of those 7-refresh PCs at a time, and should be easily able to create a block that they can't get through without at least a couple maneuvers.

At 30 refresh, you should be able to cast 10-shift evocations without breaking a sweat. Or have minions.

It really depends on your build.

If you have low Alertness and no awesome defensive item, you can easily get murdered before taking an action.

Plus, Refresh invested in ritual magic simply doesn't help in a fight. Non-Crafter thaumaturges can be weak fighters no matter how high their Refresh.

And Refresh invested in Lawbreaker is just generally less effective than Refresh invested in Refinement. There are exceptions, but those exceptions are exceptions.

And then there's standard sub-optimal stuff like focusing on multiple Evocation elements and not putting your casting skills as high as possible.

So it's pretty easy to build an uber-Wizard that's easy to kill.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Hick Jr on January 25, 2013, 05:12:09 AM
I'm kind of shocked that you're only at ten shifts at 30 refresh if the guy is someone all your characters are meant to fight. Belial666 has a character that's knocking off 16-shift evocations at about half that refresh level. I'll reiterate- Extended evocation blocks, enchanted items, and summoned mooks are your friends here.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Deadmanwalking on January 25, 2013, 05:16:28 AM
Even at 'only' 10 shifts, a remotely capable combat-Wizard should destroy 7 Refresh PCs with a flick of his wrist. Or (like any Wizard) die like a punk if he fails to get his magical defense up in time. Wizards without magic are fragile as hell...as it should be, given how that sort of thing is portrayed in the Dresden Files.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Hick Jr on January 25, 2013, 05:26:10 AM
Yep! Assuming Superb conviction and rotes, that's six mental stress boxes equals
-one 10 shift block
-extend aforementioned block by 10 exchanges
-4 Weapon:10 accuracy 10 blasts for one stress each. 

Wizards are squishy until they get time to fort up. And I agree. Wizards have to have some weaknesses.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 25, 2013, 05:36:30 AM
Quote from: Hick Jr on January 25, 2013, 05:12:09 AM
I'm kind of shocked that you're only at ten shifts at 30 refresh if the guy is someone all your characters are meant to fight. Belial666 has a character that's knocking off 16-shift evocations at about half that refresh level. I'll reiterate- Extended evocation blocks, enchanted items, and summoned mooks are your friends here.

Bear in mind that Elena benefits from a highly optimal homebrew Sponsored Magic and a house rule that lets Lawbreaker add to spell power. 30 Refresh guy presumably didn't get either of those perks.

Though people tend to think the Lawbreaker thing is an official rule, so who knows. Maybe he got Lawbreaker to power after all.

Since 30 Refresh guy was a necromancer specialized in mind control, he probably had 6-10 Refresh invested in Lawbreaker. Plus 2 in Sponsored Magic. Plus 7 in the Wizard Template.

So we're really "only" talking 11-15 Refinements here, even assuming no other Refresh expenditures.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Aminar on January 25, 2013, 05:38:20 AM
And by Suboptimal you mean flavor. 
I mean, how else do you pull off a Linkin Park cover band lost child of Kemmler necromancer who's pulling off a Darkhallow in Disney World?

Although come to think of it, they might have had 8 or 9 refresh by then...  It was a long time ago and that session got cut in half due to Migraine inspired projectile upchucking.  Is a bit fuzzy.
And notice the darkhallow bit(That does keep one busy...  He was relying on fetches to keep him safe and they frankly gt outwitted(who knew some of my PC's knew about the tunnels below Disney where the Giant Purple Dragon doesn't fit.)
Granted they were supposed to succeed, but not so easily.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Deadmanwalking on January 25, 2013, 05:40:57 AM
Yeah, 10 shift Evocation isn't at all unreasonable for a -30 Refresh guy with a lot of Lawbreaker (probably -6 to -8 worth of Lawbreaker) who's focused on Thaumaturgy.

It's also more than sufficient to destroy most Waist Deep PCs. Especially if he's got Lawbreaker (First) which I'd argue he really should.
Title: Re: Is the fate system the best for the book series
Post by: Aminar on January 25, 2013, 05:43:45 AM
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on January 25, 2013, 05:40:57 AM
Yeah, 10 shift Evocation isn't at all unreasonable for a -30 Refresh guy with a lot of Lawbreaker (probably -6 to -8 worth of Lawbreaker) who's focused on Thaumaturgy.

It's also more than sufficient to destroy most Waist Deep PCs. Especially if he's got Lawbreaker (First) which I'd argue he really should.
No.  He'd avoided that one so far.  Largely by mind controlling others to do his killing.  And being a cover band, leaving dead rodies behind is far less fun than kidnapping the hot ones via mind control(in his mind)