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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Cenphx on December 31, 2012, 09:56:56 PM
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In looking at whether the evidence supported the possibility that one person was responsible for the events of SF-FM-BR-LH, I concluded that it was possible and narrowed the suspect to someone who was a powerful mortal wizard, most likely a woman. The evidence also pointed to an outsider connection. But my theory lacked a motive, unlike the theories for Mavra, Lord Raith, or the Red Court Vampires. So what would the motive be for a powerful mortal wizard connected to the Outsiders to pass out black magic?
Black magic is addictive.
So passing out items which use/allow the use of black magic or teaching black magic will lead to ever increasing amounts of such magic being performed, like a feedback loop.
Black magic makes the person who wields it “mad” or “insane” or just somehow not themselves.
Certain kinds of magic make the barriers between worlds thin.
In GP, the barb wire spell was placed on ghosts drove the ghosts mad. The ghosts being crazy made the barrier between the NN and the mortal world turbulent and thinner, in other words, easier to cross. Ghosts are beings of both the mortal world and the NN. They once lived in the mortal world and can cross back, but build their places of power in the NN and are stronger there.
Compare this to mortals. Mortal magic is necessary to summon Outsiders. Therefore, mortal magic is connected in some way to Outsiders. Like the mad ghosts thinning the barrier between the NN and the mortal world, mortals being driven “mad” while performing black magic would make the barrier turbulent or thin the barrier between the Outsiders and the mortal. In other words, make it easier to for something to cross over from there to here.
The use of certain kinds of magic acts as a beacon for things on the other side.
In PG, we saw how the use of black magic based on fear drew in the fetches from the NN, which feed on or were powered by or were just drawn to fear.
The Outsiders can be drawn in the same way as the fetches. In BR, during the ritual entropy curse, Madge summoned HWWBh stating, “Let our need become the traveller’s road.” Her use of the black magic ritual became a destination point for the Outsider to travel to the mortal world.
So….the point of passing out black magic or teaching it to mortals is to get people performing it and addicted to it so that an ever increasing amount of black magic is being conducted. This will make it easier for Outsiders to cross over and each person will act as a beacon point for the Outsiders to follow.
What do you think?
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You might want to mention CD spoils in the thread topic.
I don't know the reason is specifically the same for each of the books. I was considering the notion that vanilla mortals are immune from Outsider infection, and the Three Eye drug was an attempt to find a workaround to this problem.
Fool Moon might be a second attempt the problem, because the Three Eye drug's effects were limited? Once the drug's effects wore off the Outsider infection was rejected?
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You might want to mention CD spoils in the thread topic.
I don't know the reason is specifically the same for each of the books. I was considering the notion that vanilla mortals are immune from Outsider infection, and the Three Eye drug was an attempt to find a workaround to this problem.
Fool Moon might be a second attempt the problem, because the Three Eye drug's effects were limited? Once the drug's effects wore off the Outsider infection was rejected?
Thanks for reminding me about the spoilers. I keep forgetting.
So you were thinking that causing a vanilla mortal to be able to do magic made them susceptible to the infection?
I guess it seems to me that if it were that easy to get the infection, a lot more people and wizards would have it and the rest of the Outsiders would have come through already. I've been imagining the infection as something pretty rare. I've been thinking it is contracted when you willingly use certain specific types of black magic (I think this hits on knnn's theory about corruption, but I haven't read it for a while, so I could be wrong about whether this jives with his theory), which explains how Lea got it--she used the athame. Denton used the belt, etc.
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So you were thinking that causing a vanilla mortal to be able to do magic made them susceptible to the infection?
Well, my WAG would be that the Outsiders aren't exactly clear on the reason why the majority of humans are immune. However, given that 3-eye was trying to reproduce the Wizard's sight specifically, it isn't a question of using magic leaving an opening for potential infection to those who are otherwise immune.
I guess it seems to me that if it were that easy to get the infection, a lot more people and wizards would have it and the rest of the Outsiders would have come through already. I've been imagining the infection as something pretty rare.
No, I'm not suggesting that these methods would spread the infection like a massive Outbreak. It just might allow the Outsiders to influence politics & mundane mortals, in ways that aren't currently open to them.
Drug the President with 3-eye, then have him have a run in with one of the Walkers. Then the Outsiders would have the ability to manipulate domestic politics. Maybe set off another Inquisition like event.
In this view, Storm Front & Fool Moon are essentially experiments.
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this would make sense if the wizard was in thrall to the outsdiers; otherwise, there is no rational gain. ;D
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this would make sense if the wizard was in thrall to the outsdiers; otherwise, there is no rational gain. ;D
Oh, agreed. The wizard is a collaborator. Very very bad wizard.
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Oh, agreed. The wizard is a collaborator. Very very bad wizard.
so, why not the ussual suspect Cowl? Or the backup suspect Mavra?
(im still thinking Cowl is a patsie who will face heel turn; were overdue for that.)
I think youre trying to build a case for 'Elaine is an outsider agent' but the problem with that is she had so many oppurtunites to do damage to Harry and or recruit him I just dont see it..
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It is possible there was more than one motive each time the use of black magic was encouraged. In SF there was the exploding heart curse, which seemed to be small version of the bloodline curse in Changes. The purpose of the three-eye drug is a bit of a mystery, unless it was just a way to give Victor Sells more money.
The Hexen Wolf belts were given to FBI agents who had a strong desire to take out Johnny Marcone. Why Marcone would be a target of the wizard handing out the belts is a mystery. Maybe he was only a secondary target at that point.
Empowering Kravos and helping him turn himself in "The Nightmare" seemed aimed solely at Harry Dresden. Yes, the ghost Kravos was gunning for everyone who helped take him down, but Harry was the individual who had gummed up the works in the first two books. However, I suppose the idea of weakening the boundaries between the mortal world and the spirit world which we saw in GP may be related to the use of the darkhallow ritual in DB. Specifically, perhaps weakening the boundaries to help Kravos cross over to get his revenge was a way of testing the kind of work Cowl did in DB to prepare for the darkhallow ritual.
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In some other thread I was recently reading, it's suggested that the point of Cold Days wasn't a prison break, but to steal all the mantle power, from the various immortals within. Since it is Halloween, making that sort of thing possible.
Plus, the recent Red Court Death curse likely made the barrier between the real world & the never never get a tad thin.
I also recall that Harry said something to the effect that Karvos's attempts to thin the barrier paved the way to help the Kemmlerites perform the Darkhallow.
Maybe the point of the first few books is twofold, one a series of harassment campaigns against the barrier & what they are stated to be.
We know Aurora was infected, but she thought her actions were of her own design. Ditto for Lea, I think. Cat Sith too, before he was overpowered.
Maybe the Outsiders work through convoluted plots, because that's the only way they can push their agenda. What was done with Cat Sith doesn't happen all that often, because usually the infection doesn't run that deep.
The fact that Cat Sith was likely infected by HWWBf might have something to do with it.
And yes, I think Victor might have been infected. There's a WOJ that Victor traded for extra power & how that worked. It's a lot like the description of that coven from the short story Backup.
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One motive for giving out black magic is to weaken the white council. Every sorcerer out there could have been a council wizard if the sorcerers did not got him first and corrupted him. And now the council has to spend resources hunting him down.
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The Outsiders can be drawn in the same way as the fetches. In BR, during the ritual entropy curse, Madge summoned HWWBh stating, “Let our need become the traveller’s road.” Her use of the black magic ritual became a destination point for the Outsider to travel to the mortal world.
Mortal magic can summon an outsider, but this isn't what the ritual Madge used did. She didn't summon the walker. The ritual used HWWBh to power the curse because Madge didn't really have any magic of her own to power the curse. HWWBh was the battery/power plant.
EDIT: Though this is a fine point and open for discussion. We've gone back and forth on it before. :)
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I was thinking of the handing out black magic as kind of like the Joker. They don't need to have any particular plan behind giving a particular mortal access to a particular spell, ability, or ritual. Just knowing each time they do it its going to cause some level of trouble that somebody on this side is going to have to take the time and effort to stop and clean up could be reason enough to do it..
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I suspect it might also be used to tie up council resources. Couple that with identifying the more combat capable wizards, namely, the wardens allowing nemesis to get a good read on how the council is likely to react in a given situation. From something like that response times and number of personnel in a given area and their capabilities can be ascertained. Create a big enough problem and allies get called in and marked and leaders and champions begin to stand out. Morgan and luccio come to mind. The captain of the wardens and morgan who almost got the red king himself. Luccio is lessened and for the time being cannot make any more swords and morgan is dead. All of those small things are adding up.
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I suspect it might also be used to tie up council resources. Couple that with identifying the more combat capable wizards, namely, the wardens allowing memesis to get a good read on how the council is likely to react in a given situation. From something like that response times and number of personnel in a given area and their capabilities can be ascertained. Create a big enough problem and allies get called in and marked and leaders and champions begin to stand out. Morgan and luccio come to mind. The captain of the wardens and morgan who almost got the red king himself. Luccio is lessened and for the time being cannot make any more swords and morgan is dead. All of those small things are adding up.
That and a lot of the warlocks killed could have become wardens if just properly coached. It hurts the council double. Not to speak about the potential descendants with magic.
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I believe it is a strategy designed to achieve multiple effects:
1. Handing out black magic to low level talents creates more unstable, increasingly power hungry sorcerers to potentially call up more outsiders (mortal magic needed to summon). This gives the outsiders more ways to enter reality and further their plans.
2. Sow chaos in the supernatural community. More rogue talents, more havoc sown, more chaos among the supernatural nations. Rogue talents also bog down the WC in warlock hunting among other problems they are currently facing. A divided enemy is easier prey.
3. Identify more candidates with the potential to wield magic. Maybe thats what the 3-Eye was intended for, not just as a narcotic.
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You see, with books 1 and 2, I'm not entirely convinced yet that the "full master outline" was written. Every time Harry tries to convince me that they are now obviously part of this overarching plot by nemesis/bc, it instantly reminds me of the deluminator from the HP series. Sure, it was always meant to also have the ability to help Ron find his friends when teleporting and that wasn't a tacked on power that JKR came up with while flipping through the first book and writing the seventh.
JB might convince me by the end that 3I and hexenbelts fit in somewhere, but I still don't quite see it, unless we find something that conveys that there were hundreds of these little things going on all over.
-C
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Some good ideas being batted around, however I just can’t buy the “bog down the WC angle”. Chicago is one city, albeit a big one, in a big world. The council is worldwide (more or less). Heck – one young inexperienced, semi-rogue wizard named Harry was sufficient to the task of taking care of things in the early books – hardly a threat to the WC.
If you think about it, it took the softening up of the Red Court/White Council war, followed up by a worldwide fomor incursion to force the WC to pull back and concentrate on defending Europe as we learned in CD. So the developing of a few minor league magic users in Chicago, if it were an attempt to weaken the council, was simply a poor plan.
I’ll concede the point if we have evidence of black magic and other weird stuff being on the increase worldwide during the same time. Then the events of the early books could have been a small part of a bigger wear down the WC plot.
The wearing down of the barrier between worlds, and the removal of Marcone seems to be the major goals.
Why Marcone? He represents a power in the area of Chicago, a power that likes things stable. Also the area its self is important because of its nearness to demonreach and it is also near the stone table in faerie. Perhaps there are other reasons.
Getting back to Marcone – maybe someone leading team evil has foresight on a par with Odin and saw that their evil plans would be more likely to succeed if Marcone was removed. Odin saw this to and made Gard and other help available.
I love these books because they are wonderfully complicated.
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[...] Also the area its self is important because of its nearness to demonreach and it is also near the stone table in faerie. Perhaps there are other reasons. [...]
The stone table is wherever the Queens decide it needs to be. They call forth the area to do battle. They just happened to call it forth in in Chicago because that was where the shit was hitting the fan at the time.
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I don't believe Vanilia's are immune to Nemesis, but i'd say they're usefulness is minimal and i'd say they're working to fix that as well as spread influence.
In book 1 three Eye gave Vanilla's the Sight, giving a very limited tool extra abilities, it's possible that it was at least considered as a channel for the Nemesis infection.
In book 2 the wolf belts were one step up, giving several people who had mortal power "AKA authority" supernatural power, it's implied by an unreliable source (Maeve) that they were infected and even if they weren't, they were taking orders from someone who probably was.
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I don't have a full-fledged theory to support this (I don't know that I even believe it myself) but while trying to fit these puzzle pieces together myself I have often wondered - what if someone (Odin? The Circle? HWWBehind?) was primarily using these black magic events to shape Harry and to guide his path? Someone with a sadistic Lea/Justin style of teaching.
The Three Eye and Victor Sells force Harry to run up against Marcone as well as Bianca (the two most powerful forces in Chicago). The Three Eye also allows Harry to eventually escape the Doom of Damocles.
The Hexenwulf belts put Harry together with the Alphas as well as forcing him to come to a working arrangement with Marcone.
The events of Grave Peril draw Harry and Michael closer together, introduce Harry to Thomas, expose Harry to a good chunk of the supernatural political world, force Harry to finally confront Lea and eventually result in Harry removing the Red Court influence from Chicago while starting a war that will keep him on his toes for the next 8-10 years.
Is there some reason that these events could not be the result of someone like Mab trying to further shape Harry into a weapon? Or someone like Odin trying to shape what would eventually become the Chicago Alliance (and what I think he plans to eventually become the core of the human (ish) army in the coming wars)? As a bonus on the Odin theory - he got to screw with the Erlking's hunters at the FBI while pushing Marcone down the supernatural path.
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I don't believe Vanilia's are immune to Nemesis,
Maeve clearly thought she could infect Justine.
but i'd say they're usefulness is minimal and i'd say they're working to fix that as well as spread influence.
In book 1 three Eye gave Vanilla's the Sight, giving a very limited tool extra abilities, it's possible that it was at least considered as a channel for the Nemesis infection.
In book 2 the wolf belts were one step up, giving several people who had mortal power "AKA authority" supernatural power, it's implied by an unreliable source (Maeve) that they were infected and even if they weren't, they were taking orders from someone who probably was.
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Speaking of which...Harry should track down whoever created Three Eye.
If someone could come up with a non-crazy version it could fundamentally alter the fashion in which humans interact with and defend against the supernatural community.
Granted - most vanilla humans would lack the mental strength to handle such a thing but I bet that someone like Murphy (or someone not entirely vanilla like Thomas or the Alphas) would be able to put it to good use. Someone with great mental discipline from another 'art' and who was already comfortable with the supernatural world.
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Speaking of which...Harry should track down whoever created Three Eye.
If he ever tracks down the guy who gave Victor the recipe I don't think they're going to sit down for a civil conversation.
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If he ever tracks down the guy who gave Victor the recipe I don't think they're going to sit down for a civil conversation.
Agreed. :)
Giving vanilla human's some sort of sight might screw with the plot anyways.
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Speaking of which...Harry should track down whoever created Three Eye.
If someone could come up with a non-crazy version it could fundamentally alter the fashion in which humans interact with and defend against the supernatural community.
Granted - most vanilla humans would lack the mental strength to handle such a thing but I bet that someone like Murphy (or someone not entirely vanilla like Thomas or the Alphas) would be able to put it to good use. Someone with great mental discipline from another 'art' and who was already comfortable with the supernatural world.
I always assumed that Victor got the black magic power up from outside, but created Three-Eye on his own or at least through is own machinations.