ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: admiralducksauce on December 04, 2012, 12:13:38 PM
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Hey all, now that Evil Hat's FATE Core Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/fate-core) is open, anyone considering trying to convert their DFRPG games over to the new hotness? Any hiccups so far?
I figure this thread could work as a repository for those hiccups, either ones I run into or if anyone else is trying this.
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I'm definitely going to adopt at least some of the conflict resolution systems from Fate Core as I think they bring an awesome extra level of dramatic control to the hands of my players. I look forward to watching them squirm on the horns of this dilemma: Do they just fail, or do they succeed at some heavy cost? Ahhh, drama fuel!
On the subject of DFRPG interacting with Fate Core, I've been discussing with Leonard Balsera how the new system deals with what would have been Blocks in Dresden Files. Specifically Shield evocations. The new system doesn't have Blocks but instead handles 'block actions' as Gain Advantage actions that set up an Aspect that needs to be overcome in order to pursue a certain action.
Here's how our conversation went:
Leonard's comments are in bold.
Hi hi, been pumping for answers on Twitter and Fred asked me to put them here instead. I'm liking the core contest rules but there's a bit of adjustment needed in my head from the Dresden rules (which I'm still getting to grips with anyway!)
I'd like to implement the clear, concise conflict resolution system in Fate Core in my Dresden game but I'm a little confused by the replacement for "Block". The sidebar says that to 'block' one now generally instead creates an Aspect with "Create Advantage" that must be Overcome. It then goes on to say that to Defend another person requires a full defence action. I take this to mean that one can defend someone else by setting up an obstacle (for example a book-case that can be hidden behind) that must be Overcome OR one can directly defend for someone else by taking a Full Defence action. Is this correct?
So, here's as concise as I can get it, and I'll review the draft to get it clearer.
* You can't use the normal Defend action to defend someone else from an attack, unless it's the only thing you do on your turn (aka full defense).
* You *can* put yourself between an attacker and a target, but that just means they're attacking you instead.
* You *can* create an advantage that forces the attacker to overcome an obstacle before they attack, which might disrupt the attack.
Thanks Leonard: Okay, so I'd read it right; I think it was the use of - between the two clauses that made them look like one followed directly from the other.
I was giving a concrete example on Twitter because I had a similar situation come up last night in my Dresden game.
A Wizard used Force magic to set up a Manoeuvre/Block to force a spirit creature out of a trailer just as it was about to scythe a victim. He did this by channelling 3 points into an Evocation for a Manoeuvre with some extra shifts to make it more potent, applying the Forced Out aspect to the spirit. He could just as easily have set up a 5-shift Block to stop the spirit, and that's what I'll assume for the purposes of conceptualising the new rules.
Under the new rules the Block would be represented as him taking a Gain Advantage action (and an Evocation) to apply the Magic Force Field Aspect to the scene. The spirit would then have needed to Overcome that Aspect (presumably needing to get more shifts than went into setting it up?) to get through it, presuming it's reasonable for it to penetrate a magic wall of force?
What about the good old shield-bracelet magic bullet shield? I presume the player would manoeuvre to Gain Advantage, setting up an Aspect of "Magic Shield", and then apply that Aspect to defend himself from bullets etc. when making a Defend roll against firearms attacks. Alternatively is it simply assumed bullets can't hit him while the Magic Shield is in effect unless the attacker rolls to Overcome the defence? This might vary according to who's a PC and who's an NPC, if you could answer the 'core interpretation' of both situations that would be really helpful.
I guess I'm a little concerned that the flexibility of multiple possible approaches to dealing with this sort of thing might make it hard to be consistent from one encounter to another if I forget what I did last time and work it out from first principles all over again.
In the alternate quantum universe where I had Fate Core before I designed Dresden, I would likely have said that evocation blocks/wards/whatever are technically creating an advantage, and I probably would extend the success with style rules to say that there's another free invocation to stack on at 5 shifts, then again at 7, etc.
Then, the option would go to the caster as to how he wants to let those ablate - as invocations s/he checks off over time when s/he defends, or as an imposed obstacle that s/he gives a value to in the moment, using several of those at once. All the player has to worry about in the moment is "oh, something is bumping on my shield, I get to do something".
In the fiction, that would mean that the rubric for duration for that kind of thing would switch over to "as long as the spell energy lasts". Which some people would consider apropos for Dresden, in any case.
With my luck, though, that solution breaks eight other things in Dresden. :)
Thanks very much. I like the idea of Duration coming down to 'available spell energy' where you get multiple 'hits' according to how much energy is in it. Extra free Invocations at higher shifts seems like a good way of doing it, and it does seem more in keeping with the way Harry uses his shields than a shield of fixed duration. He generally seems to be able to hold his shields up indefinitely with them only draining him when he actually takes hits.
This does lead me to ask: Are there plans to release a short document updating the Dresden Magic and other systems (where necessary) to work with Fate Core? In the meantime I really like what you've done with the 3, 5, 7 etc. shift shield idea and I might just implement that as is!
It seems that this is a really easy way to implement any Evocation that lasts a matter of turns; you can sustain it with Fate Points after that, but once you're outta Fate points and out of free invocations, it's gone. Would you require an invocation every time the shield's used defensively if you were using the mechanic you suggested to stop it from lingering more than a few turns? Otherwise it would last the scene like any other 'sticky' Aspect, right?
Require an invocation? Probably not - for all practical intents and purposes, it's a scene aspect like any other, as you suggest.
So I could see charging up a shield when a fight starts and saving it a while for when you really need it.
That seems reasonable to me. Once you're out of Fate Points or tags it would only be a limited defence, so would represent the stage at which Harry's still just about holding up a guttering shield. I might be inclined to have an attack that went through it at that stage overcome the shield and put it out altogether, as it's on its last legs in those circumstances.
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I just saw this conversation in the Kickstarter comments. Kudos to you for importing it over here, thanks.
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Thanks for posting this, Skimble.
-Lenny
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It would be a perfect time for me to do it. I am still learning the FATE 3.0 in the DFRPG. If I converted, I would not have to unlearn that much.
Is it too late to get in on it?
Hey all, now that Evil Hat's FATE Core Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/fate-core) is open, anyone considering trying to convert their DFRPG games over to the new hotness? Any hiccups so far?
I figure this thread could work as a repository for those hiccups, either ones I run into or if anyone else is trying this.
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It would be a perfect time for me to do it. I am still learning the FATE 3.0 in the DFRPG. If I converted, I would not have to unlearn that much.
Is it too late to get in on it?
No way. The kickstarter hasn't been live for a day yet and it's already well on its way through some amazing stretch goals. Any pledge amount will get you the preview rules immediately, and I honestly don't see any reason NOT to pledge, unless you're somehow blocked by locale or are truly more broke than Harry Dresden. :)
I'm still reading through it and it's definitely still FATE, but it's definitely different in some ways too. I could probably convert my campaign about mostly-mortal monster-hunting bikers without too much trouble. If I had a party of wizards, I might be less gung-ho about trying to convert things myself, but then that's why this thread is here. Hell, we've already had Skimble post a method for doing barrier spells.
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I don't think it will be too hard to integrate the Dresden magic system as-is, to be honest. Barrier spells were a bit of an exception because the new rules have done away with the Block action altogether. To me that makes sense really as if you get right down to it Block was always basically a manoeuvre, just one without an Aspect to go along with it. Having said that you could use the rules as they are in DFRPG by making shield spells a border or armour instead.
Evocation attacks and manoeuvres should work as-is, I think. Optionally you might want to give extra tags (or free invocations as they're called in Fate Core) at the 5- and 7-shift points for manoeuvres as well but that seems like it could be adopted as a general rule to reward extremely competent success.
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Backed, downloaded.
I've been looking forward to this for a while; its content determines whether I'll move forward with some of my more ambitious projects.
I'm ambivalent about the removal of Blocks, which I liked, but I'll reserve judgement until I've actually read the book.
I was intrigued by the retailer and consultation levels, but I'm not a retailer and I really shouldn't blow more than a month's rent on a Kickstarter so I just went for the book. Maybe I'll up my pledge for a signed copy later, not sure yet.
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I'm currently skimming through the ebook book (which is a dated version, making me think it might see several updates during the editing process).
The Kickstarter has 50+ days to go. For $30 you get a hardcover book (+$10 shipping if you don't live in the US) plus a bunch of ebook expansions.
This currenly includes a fantasy adventure, a WWI-meets-Battlestar-Galactica mini-campaign, a magic system toolkit, Wild Blue (a mash-up of cowboys, fantasy, and superheroes), Court/Ship (alien invasion set during the court of Louis XV), Burn Shift (post-apocalyptic mutant future), and an expansion dealing with fire fighters.
Other ebooks, including No Exit, the Ellis Affair, Crime World (written by Leverage television show head writer John Rogers), and possibly others, have not been unlocked yet, but it seems like they will be added to the package.
So there's the physical copy of the Core + 7 - 10 ebooks for the same price as the core - which sounds like a great deal.
Richard
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Two other major changes in Fate Core: No Social stress track (social conflict is now just a specific type of Mental conflict; I think this makes sense as the difference between them was always a little fuzzy anyway) and you get just one set of Consequences for both Physical and Mental conflicts.
My gut reaction to the merged consequences was to not like it due to the illogical nature of not being able to, say, get a mild headache in the same scene as one sprains an ankle, but on the other hand it should speed conflicts up a bit and limit the overall number of consequences suffered by a given character.
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you get just one set of Consequences for both Physical and Mental conflicts.
I'm pretty sure the consequences "pool" was always combined. IE, one mild, one moderate, one severe, one extreme, it was just the type of consequence (social/mental/physical) that sometimes came up.
The combination of mental and social stress will make it harder for casters, as they already use the rarely-touched Mental stress track for "ammo". I personally don't mind, and honestly I don't think things will break no matter which way you decide here.
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OMG, mind blown. That's another rule I obviously read wrong based on the fact that you can get additional Mild Consequences that /are/ specifically for Mental or Physical by getting the relevant skill (Endurance or Discipline) at a high enough rating.
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Am I wrong in thinking that you can always add custom rules on top of Fate Core? So for instance, you could have additional stress tracks, like social.
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The rules are presented in a very clear way. In some respects they are simplified.
For example, the "skill pyramid" is a pyramid - not an obelisk or something that players can shape. 20 skill points = one at Great (+4), two at Good (+3), three at Fair (+2), and four at Average (+1).
It's clear that the writers have been reading forums and have addressed every point of confusion they saw being debated. In several places the language has been restructured to avoid confusion. Free tags (which are no longer called tags) have their own section.
This book has the feel of "this is the default stuff, source books will redefine things further" generic type book - like GURPS, Savage Worlds, etc.
It wouldn't take a lot of work to adapt DFRPG to the new core setting - especially after we see some of those bonus books. Looking at their titles, I have to wonder how close the "magic system toolkit" will resemble DFRPG. If it's close enough then that might do the bulk of the updating for us.
Richard
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I just tossed my forty bucks at the kickstarter, and I'm really happy with what I'm seeing. I'm pretty sure this is gonna improve my Dresden game just by reading it.
But what I'm wondering about possibly adapting Dresden to the new system is why couldn't Magic be handled by an "Evocation" and "Thaumatugry" skill that you just pay refresh to take? It seems to me that the DFRPG has a lot of stuff that make magic a little convoluted the first couple reads through. It would fit in the "simpler" direction FATE Core seems to like.
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From the comments on the kickstarter:
Is the idea of merging consequences to speed up play and make it more likely for people to concede a conflict? I presume in Fate Core social conflicts are actually just Mental conflicts with a social bent.
Most of what Fate used to consider social conflicts are really contests now - instances where people are maneuvering around each other to accomplish a goal, but no one's doing any lasting harm to one another.
Yeah, that makes sense. You can also Gain Advantage to place Aspects like "Social Pariah" on someone without the need for it to be a Consequence.
I've just been informed that Consequences were always 'officially' merged in DFRPG except the extra consequences gained from high levels of Discipline etc. so that's another example of me reading the rules incorrectly!
TBH, that actually makes a bit more sense to me given the weird "mental is who you are/social is how other people see you" divide from the default mental/social breakdown.
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If you go through the book you'll find scattered references to Social combat - which seem to have survived the editing process.
Richard
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I've just realised Barriers are gone too. They've been replaced with Scene Aspects. Not a big problem as they can be functionally identical, but actually being Aspects makes them better as they can be riffed off more easily.
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Well, will have to head over there make a donation.
No way. The kickstarter hasn't been live for a day yet and it's already well on its way through some amazing stretch goals. Any pledge amount will get you the preview rules immediately, and I honestly don't see any reason NOT to pledge, unless you're somehow blocked by locale or are truly more broke than Harry Dresden. :)
I'm still reading through it and it's definitely still FATE, but it's definitely different in some ways too. I could probably convert my campaign about mostly-mortal monster-hunting bikers without too much trouble. If I had a party of wizards, I might be less gung-ho about trying to convert things myself, but then that's why this thread is here. Hell, we've already had Skimble post a method for doing barrier spells.
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Backed and am working my way through the core. I'm really happy we unlocked the hardcover version and am looking forward to the magic toolkit.
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Two things of DFRPG interest in the kickstarter:
Magic system toolkit: In one of our earlier incarnations of the Fate system, Evil Hat co-founder Rob Donoghue lost his damn mind and included a chapter of over half a dozen different magic systems for use with the game. With this stretch goal, Rob will create a new supplement doing exactly that for Fate Core to be added to our EXPANSIONS package for our backers.
- This has me wondering if a bare bones DFRPG magic system will be included in the toolkit.
Fight Fire: Fight Fire expands Fate Core's handling of objective hazards, answering the common question "the warehouse has the On Fire aspect... now what?" Not only is this answered -- literally -- but it is enhanced and expanded in the form of a mini supplement that tackles both the day-to-day operations of urban firefighters (using tactics cribbed directly from the FDNY) and their lives off the clock.
- a book that covers "the building was burning and it wasn't my fault" situations. It (along with the rest of FATE Core) looks to be easily adaptable to the DFRPG.
Another interesting goal is:
White Picket Witches - the author is drawing on "Practical Magic, Murder She Wrote, Witches of Eastwick and, say, Fried Green Tomatoes" for a game expansion that is based around witches in suburbia.
Not funded yet - but this is still only day 2 - is:
Extras Toolbox [LOCKED]: We'll take the Magic System Toolkit and absorb it as one chapter -- then go beyond the field of magic, doubling (or maybe even tripling) the word-count, to create the Extras Toolbox, a series of collections-of-extras that will illustrate in greater depth how to construct full add-on options for your game. Each collection will be viable as a plug-and-play addition to your game, if it turns out to be a fit. We'll look into exploring ways to implement powers, vehicles, gear, and more, with a few system-tweaks and variants for extra spice.
- if they get enough backers this book will be printed and available for $15-$20 (they haven't decided yet) + shipping ($5 for US, $10 for the rest of the world.).
And if you don't want to back the project you can still get a copy of the PDF for whatever price you are willing to pay:Wait, how do I get the final PDF? It's not listed on any of the pledge levels?
The final version of the PDF will be made available to the whole world on a "pay what you like, including nothing" scheme. So backers will be able to download the final version themselves at no cost -- and with a clear conscience!
Getting back on topic: I'm wondering if we should look at adding a sub board for DFRPG/FATE 3.0 hacks?
Richard
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Not funded yet - but this is still only day 2 - is:
Extras Toolbox [LOCKED]:
Not locked for long, everyone. Less than $1500 before the Extras Toolkit is ours for the plundering. :)
I just noticed the supplemental action penalty for a single-zone move is gone. I am rejoicing right now, because that was probably the one single thing my group forgot the most.
Getting back on topic: I'm wondering if we should look at adding a sub board for DFRPG/FATE 3.0 hacks
Maybe? I guess there's only this one thread now, but I'm sure there'll be more discussion as things progress.
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I'm assuming that once the rules (including the toolbox) are out that people will want to discuss how various DFRPG rules can be hacked to turn them into FATE Core compatible and we'll need a separate area for those discussions. Then again, all of the DFPRG books (paranet etc) that were supposed to be out this year are "late" so maybe we will see an official "DFRPG to FATE Core conversion book" sometime in the future.
Then we too can have edition wars... er... I mean discuss why going with this version of the rules is the only logical way to go :).
Also, just in - a new stretch goal:
"$101,000, all of the stretch goal expansions up to Camelot Trigger that aren't going in the Toolbox will go into a "Fate Worlds" compilation book."
- for $30
- coming in at the 300 - 400 range
Richard
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I'm interested in the TimeWorks expansion:
"Want to have developed the iPhone? We can make it so that your firm had the idea before Apple. Want to get rid of a tricky rival? We'll make sure his parents never met. After all, it's only murder if someone gets killed. Not getting born doesn't count. Our time technicians are experts at moving the timestream in revenue generating directions. We're discreet, careful, and always on time. After all, we know you expect the best. Timeworks. Making time work for you."
This sounds like it would be incredibly useful if you wanted to have a campaign focusing around the Gatekeeper's Sixth Law enforcement squad.
Also, two quotes from Fred about updating DFRPG to Fate Core:
Read about the Paranet Papers here: http://www.evilhat.com/home/state-of-the-hat-2012-nov/ It's not going to include any kind of Fate Core update in it, though.
A Dresden Files Fate Core conversion would be of minimal use because there's so much legacy stuff in there that'll "corrupt" the mix, if that makes sense.
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Sorry if this is a dumb, but I'm still a little confused how something like a shield would work. Is it:
1) I create the shield, creating an Energy Shield scene aspect, then on a defense roll, I can tag it for a free +2 (or reroll) like any other aspect, no matter how many shifts I put in it.
Or...
2) Do the shifts matter, and every time I use the aspect, my attacker has to Overcome an n-shift obstacle.
Or is it something else entirely?
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Under the system proposed by Lenny:
The Evocation for the shield is a Create Advantage action that makes an Aspect (of Force Shield or whatever) which lasts for the scene or until its power has run out.
He says:
"I probably would extend the success with style rules to say that there's another free invocation to stack on at 5 shifts, then again at 7, etc."
He then says the caster would have the choice as to how these are ablated. Each shift can either:
1) Be used to give a +2 passive obstacle that must be overcome by the attacker before he can hurt you, with multiple shifts being burnable this way at the same time. This would let you burn off 3 shifts to put a +6 obstacle in your opponent's way for a turn.
2) Checking them off one at a time to give a bonus on an active defence roll.
So to give a concrete example Harry decides to throw up a shield around himself to defend from bullets being fired by a Renfield. He channels 5 shifts of power and succeeds on the control roll, thus gaining 3 (edited from 2 - he gets an invocation at 1, and another at 3, then another at 5 shifts) free invocations on the shield.
On the renfield's action he tries to shoot Harry. Because Harry's using a magical shield he can use it to actively defend. Harry rolls Discipline as his active defence and rolls a Good. The Renfield rolls his Shooting and gets a Good too, so Harry burns his first free invocation to get his defence up to Superb, ablating the bullet against his shield.
The text on invoking Aspects as an obstacle is:
"Force someone to make a Fair (+2) overcome roll to deal with an obstacle represented by the aspect. If you do this before your target’s turn in a conflict, they have to use their turn on this action instead of the one they were going to do."
If he had wanted to do this Harry could have burned a free invocation on a passive defence, giving the grunt a +2 obstacle to overcome before he could shoot him. Burning two free invocations would have made it a +4 obstacle. If he'd done this before the Renfield's action then the Renfield would have had to spend his entire action overcoming the shield instead of shooting Harry. Otherwise, the Renfield rolls the overcome action in addition to his action to shoot Harry and then Harry gets to defend as normal. Personally if I were GMing this I would say that this defence action would have to be a normal Athletics one as the bullet has penetrated his shield.
As GM I would probably rule that once a shield has been overcome as above when being used as a static obstacle it is destroyed and needs to be re-established. If being used as an active defence it can stay around indefinitely, though this will be down to the way the narrative flows at the table.
I note also that the Caster should be open for Compels on his Force Shield Aspect because he's being distracted as a result of keeping the shield up.
This means that there's a toss-up between the two techniques, and makes the passive barrier most useful as a 'perfect defence' when you get to invoke it before the attacker has his action. On the other hand using it as an active defence is likely to keep it around for longer and lets you defend with a magical skill rather than a physical one.
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Skimble, in your example, when you say that Harry succeeds on his roll, do you mean he succeeded with style, because that's the only way that you get two free invocations. Or, do the amount of shifts you put in initially get you those extra invocations? So if I put in 7 shifts, do I get a total of four free invocations (two for 3 shifts, and then one each for 5 and 7 shifts)?
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Succeeding with Style doesn't apply as-written to Dresden-style magic because when you're Evoking you set out to achieve a certain number of shifts and your effect can't go beyond that except that it increases the difficulty of resistance rolls against your Evocation (i.e. if I channel five shifts of power but end up rolling 7 on my Control roll I don't get to add any extra shifts of power to the damage, but the opponent has to roll against 7 to defend... that's if I'm remembering correctly).
My example therefore assumed that he was channelling 5 shifts of power on a Gain Advantage Evocation. The first 3 to get two free invocations (you're right - I forgot about the first free invocation at one shift) of the created advantage and another two to guarantee a third free invocation. This parallels the previous rules for Manoeuvring with Evocation, which set the base difficulty at 3 and gave extra duration for additional shifts.
Whether or not he could get invocations on top of that by rolling 7, 9 etc. shifts in the end is up for the individual group (or an official adaptation of Dresden to the new Core Fate rules) to decide.
You could of course ignore Lenny's suggestion of expanding the Success With Style mechanic and indefinite duration for magically gained Advantages to say it's a flat 3 difficulty to create an advantage + an extra turn of Duration per extra shift channelled and then use the Success With Style rule as-is.
There's no right or wrong way of doing it really, until someone makes an official magic extras pack.
For my game I like the idea that the shifts of power put into the spell (for a shield at least) give its overall power level, so I wouldn't grant additional free invocations if Harry succeeded with style on the Discipline roll even if he got more shifts than he needed to reach the number of shifts of power he channelled. He's 'pre buying' the free invocations instead.
Does that make sense?
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That does. Thank you for that.
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For my game I like the idea that the shifts of power put into the spell (for a shield at least) give its overall power level, so I wouldn't grant additional free invocations if Harry succeeded with style on the Discipline roll even if he got more shifts than he needed to reach the number of shifts of power he channelled. He's 'pre buying' the free invocations instead.
Right, pre-buying the shifts maintains the Backlash and Fallout mechanics, which I always liked. Although if you wanted to "Core" backlash/fallout, you could express them as simply minor or major costs for tied/failed rolls. What I mean is, keep doing what you've been doing, but in FATE Core I think you could explain them via the inbuilt "success at a cost" mechanics.
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More news about the magic system toolkit. One of the things the author wants to include is:
- Serial numbers filed off version of DFRPG Evocation
More info at http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FateRPG/message/22002 (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FateRPG/message/22002).
And most of the stretch goals now have links to pages with more information about them - including one where Fred seems to be taking opinions about what should be covered in the toolbox sections.
Richard
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So, I've been doing some more thinking and I now have a pretty complete retooling of Evocation to Fate Core, making as few changes as possible. I'm using the idea proposed by Leonard Balsera earlier in this thread.
Evocation can be used to Attack, Overcome, Create an Advantage and Counterspell. Overcome is just using an evocation to overcome some difficulty in the scene or achieve a fixed result and is resisted actively or passively as normal.
So the only one that really needs explaining is Create an Advantage as it sticks around.
Under these rules Evocation can be used to establish an effect of indefinite duration as long as active concentration is maintained. Fast, simple actions (free actions in the rules) won't disrupt concentration but doing anything that requires an action is difficult without losing concentration on the sustained evocation. To represent this the difficulty of taking any other action is increased by 2. As an addition to any other consequences of failing or tying the action roll, the sustained effect is ended.
Note: I was thinking about requiring a Discipline roll at the same difficulty as the original evocation to take any other actions but decided that it would be best not to add a second roll.
Rather than duration, extra shifts of power are used in order to gain additional free invocations. The first is gained with 1 shift of power and another is gained every for every two shifts. You would therefore gain free invocations at 1, 3, 5 and 7 shifts of power.
Once the evocation is in effect it can be used exactly like any other scene aspect. Free invocations can be stacked to provide multiple +2 bonuses or rerolls at any given time.
There are some specific things to bear in mind when this system is used to create shields.
The user can, if they choose, gain personal armour at a cost of two shifts per point. As per the original rules this is not depleted if they take an injury. Shifts used to create armour in this way do not provide free invocations.
Extra shifts may be used as per the DFRPG rules to spread the shield over a wider area. Again, these do not count towards free invocations.
When using a shield to defend against incoming attacks, the player can either use free invocations (and/or a single Fate point invocation) to make a passive obstacle of 2 per point spent per the Invoking an Aspect as an Obstacle rule (possibly costing the enemy a turn to blast through the shields - if successful - when invoked before the enemy's turn) or make an active defence roll against the attack using Discipline rather than Athletics. Again, free invocations and/or a Fate point can be used to increase the defence.
Only one Evocation can be sustained in this way at any given time.
What do you guys think?
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I miss blocks.
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There's an easy fix for that!
To be honest I didn't need to change the system as much as this; I could have simply said that establishing a shield creates an Aspect obstacle with a specific difficulty to overcome of the shifts put into the shield. I like this more dynamic version quite a bit more, though. It gives the player more control and could lead to some tense scenes as he runs out of invocations...
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I miss blocks.
I think Obstacles are a far cleaner way of looking at things. Blocks got murky really fast (what is this blocking? can it block all these things? why can this block protect against everything while this other block can't? what breaks the block?) See Orbius and Grappling for specific examples, and veils for general ones (Veils are spells that can block someone's ability to see things; therefore, can other similar spells block someone's dis-ability to see things? Why not? Deep rabbit hole, etc.)
Obstacles are more conceptually easy to grasp. Does thing "A" obstruct ones' ability to do action X? If yes, it's an obstacle against thing A. If not, it's not. Does action Y narratively defeat thing A? If yes, action Y can be used to overcome. If not, it can't. Much simpler logic, I think.
I can see being annoyed at a new learning curve, though. I'm used to thinking in blocks, and the new methodology is going to take some getting used to for me. I think my players will have a much easier time with the new system, though, since they never got to the point where they were "thinking with blocks," if you get my meaning.
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Blocks are quite conceptually easy to grasp. Does block "A" obstruct ones' ability to do action X? If yes, it's a block against action X. If not, it's not. Simple logic, I think.
Grapples make it more complex, of course, but grapples are their own thing that's built on top of the block rules. They could be dropped even if blocks were kept.
As for veils, they're actually dead simple as long as you're willing to accept the abstraction of overcoming a veil with your Weapons (or Fists, or Might, etc) skill.
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I would love to see Dresden Files written up as a FATE Core setting. If the starting point is FATE Core, and not DFRPG, what does the magic system look like? Are there other extras?
:-)
R
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Rob Donoghue is writing a magic systems toolkit and said that he wanted to do a version of DFRPG evocation with the "serial numbers filed off", so we might at least get a glimpse of what that looks like.
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My group is currently working on a amalgam of DF and Core. Boiling down the DF skill list a little (We really need Perform?). Updating the wording of Skills and Stunts to fit the Core mechanics.
It should tide us over until they come out with a more official update anyway.
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I've done two Fate Core hacks so far. One's not entirely in DFRPG's wheelhouse, about using Fate for military-styled campaigns.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W6rRaDBc_gDSHM1DgBsLW0X_ojrITA9u-A38nb09LH0/edit
My other document is ongoing, and is my conversion of my DFRPG monster-hunting biker game over to Core. I too streamlined/changed the skill list and pared down magic to only deal with what my players specifically need to know for the moment. I'm hoping to put off any additional magic work until the toolbox comes out.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hmJQVhLsjZhat6TjJzABl9oEpeSSyCo6SZ3Uz7si1xw/edit#heading=h.ws5ijgwy5nzi
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Fred did an ask me anything over on Reddit today http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/166jkx/i_am_fred_hicks_from_evil_hat_productions_and_the/
Its has some really cool info in it so I thought I would share it over here. It looks like backers might get to see the rough cut of the magic and such if things continue to go well.
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The Magic Toolkit draft came out today. Seems to be geared towards games with much lower refresh levels that DFRPG. I really liked the "void summoning" ability.
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Whereas I think it's hilarious and awesome that Rob snuck in will o' the wisp Pokemon in there.
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The FATE Core Magic Toolkit is great. Stormcalling could be re-themed to become DFRPG evocation again easily, and it's much faster and more balanced in play.
I loved the Storm Summoning system, but it's not a fully encompassing system like DFRPG Thaumaturgy. Would love to see Thaumaturgy re-worked to work well in FATE Core... Any ideas?
Ryan
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The FATE Core Magic Toolkit is great. Stormcalling could be re-themed to become DFRPG evocation again easily, and it's much faster and more balanced in play.
I loved the Storm Summoning system, but it's not a fully encompassing system like DFRPG Thaumaturgy. Would love to see Thaumaturgy re-worked to work well in FATE Core... Any ideas?
Ryan
I agree, it would be awesome to see DFRPG thaumaturgy re-worked in FATE Core. And FATE Core looks great so far! :D
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I made my donation a couple of weeks ago but have not seen the preview. I guess because it's so close to goal date, they might be waiting.
No way. The kickstarter hasn't been live for a day yet and it's already well on its way through some amazing stretch goals. Any pledge amount will get you the preview rules immediately, and I honestly don't see any reason NOT to pledge, unless you're somehow blocked by locale or are truly more broke than Harry Dresden. :)
I'm still reading through it and it's definitely still FATE, but it's definitely different in some ways too. I could probably convert my campaign about mostly-mortal monster-hunting bikers without too much trouble. If I had a party of wizards, I might be less gung-ho about trying to convert things myself, but then that's why this thread is here. Hell, we've already had Skimble post a method for doing barrier spells.
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I made my donation a couple of weeks ago but have not seen the preview. I guess because it's so close to goal date, they might be waiting.
When you make the donation you can see the update that gives you the web address (and password) to download the file.
Go back through the old updates and you'll find it there.
Richard
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Thanks. Just found it.
When you make the donation you can see the update that gives you the web address (and password) to download the file.
Go back through the old updates and you'll find it there.
Richard
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And if you go down the list of milestone books, about half of them have links that backers can click on to see previews of those books. Of course only backers can see them and they are password protected, but they make for fun reading.
Especially the magic one where there's a stripped down version of DFRPG magic, one that uses less than half the page count of the DFRPG.
Richard
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When it comes to thaumaturgy and Fate Core, I've been seeing a lot of different ways to do different things that fall within thaum's purview, but it's not like thaum in that there's one grand unified system to do everything.
Want to summon something? Check out Storm Summoners or Void Callers in the magic toolkit preview. Want to cast a small blessing or curse? Try the Subtle Art. That sort of thing, where you could take mechanics from several subsystems to simulate some of what thaumaturgy can do, but we don't yet have an exact translation.
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For those that haven't heard yet the last stretch goal is going to be a new Dresden Files using the streamlined Fate Accelerated Edition. Go and back the thing, if you haven't already.
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Here are some links to an effort to Core-ify the DFRPG that were put up on the various lists.
Thought they might do some good on the forums.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lepc_X546Z4ogWBU1bPIHoCAPk89YuNzxsKMWLfdBYM/edit
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wdDSLo9voAUbjTbDnKkbIW7LMWVKOnifHmwiFqw6A8c/edit
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ROi60imuEUKg3jL75M1RmADIAC_SI4aqvy4KSFZieek/edit
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Thanks for posting those!
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For those that haven't heard yet the last stretch goal is going to be a new Dresden Files using the streamlined Fate Accelerated Edition. Go and back the thing, if you haven't already.
More info here:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/fate-core/posts/390041
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AHHHHHHHHH!!!!! THIS IS AWESOME!
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More info here:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/fate-core/posts/390041
I saw the update today! :D
I'm already a backer, and I really hope the accelerated version gets funded!
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Threw in 30. Getting the Fatecore book. Hoping I help.
Also, I love the storm caller for adapting into the Dresdenverse. It doesn't duplicate Binder by any means, but it seems useful.
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Well you all managed to convince me...I was clean! I had the kickstarter monkey off my back and now I've backed 3 more projects today.
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I'm definitely going to adopt at least some of the conflict resolution systems from Fate Core as I think they bring an awesome extra level of dramatic control to the hands of my players. I look forward to watching them squirm on the horns of this dilemma: Do they just fail, or do they succeed at some heavy cost? Ahhh, drama fuel!
On the subject of DFRPG interacting with Fate Core, I've been discussing with Leonard Balsera how the new system deals with what would have been Blocks in Dresden Files. Specifically Shield evocations. The new system doesn't have Blocks but instead handles 'block actions' as Gain Advantage actions that set up an Aspect that needs to be overcome in order to pursue a certain action.
Here's how our conversation went:
Leonard's comments are in bold.
Hi hi, been pumping for answers on Twitter and Fred asked me to put them here instead. I'm liking the core contest rules but there's a bit of adjustment needed in my head from the Dresden rules (which I'm still getting to grips with anyway!)
I'd like to implement the clear, concise conflict resolution system in Fate Core in my Dresden game but I'm a little confused by the replacement for "Block". The sidebar says that to 'block' one now generally instead creates an Aspect with "Create Advantage" that must be Overcome. It then goes on to say that to Defend another person requires a full defence action. I take this to mean that one can defend someone else by setting up an obstacle (for example a book-case that can be hidden behind) that must be Overcome OR one can directly defend for someone else by taking a Full Defence action. Is this correct?
So, here's as concise as I can get it, and I'll review the draft to get it clearer.
* You can't use the normal Defend action to defend someone else from an attack, unless it's the only thing you do on your turn (aka full defense).
* You *can* put yourself between an attacker and a target, but that just means they're attacking you instead.
* You *can* create an advantage that forces the attacker to overcome an obstacle before they attack, which might disrupt the attack.
Thanks Leonard: Okay, so I'd read it right; I think it was the use of - between the two clauses that made them look like one followed directly from the other.
I was giving a concrete example on Twitter because I had a similar situation come up last night in my Dresden game.
A Wizard used Force magic to set up a Manoeuvre/Block to force a spirit creature out of a trailer just as it was about to scythe a victim. He did this by channelling 3 points into an Evocation for a Manoeuvre with some extra shifts to make it more potent, applying the Forced Out aspect to the spirit. He could just as easily have set up a 5-shift Block to stop the spirit, and that's what I'll assume for the purposes of conceptualising the new rules.
Under the new rules the Block would be represented as him taking a Gain Advantage action (and an Evocation) to apply the Magic Force Field Aspect to the scene. The spirit would then have needed to Overcome that Aspect (presumably needing to get more shifts than went into setting it up?) to get through it, presuming it's reasonable for it to penetrate a magic wall of force?
What about the good old shield-bracelet magic bullet shield? I presume the player would manoeuvre to Gain Advantage, setting up an Aspect of "Magic Shield", and then apply that Aspect to defend himself from bullets etc. when making a Defend roll against firearms attacks. Alternatively is it simply assumed bullets can't hit him while the Magic Shield is in effect unless the attacker rolls to Overcome the defence? This might vary according to who's a PC and who's an NPC, if you could answer the 'core interpretation' of both situations that would be really helpful.
I guess I'm a little concerned that the flexibility of multiple possible approaches to dealing with this sort of thing might make it hard to be consistent from one encounter to another if I forget what I did last time and work it out from first principles all over again.
In the alternate quantum universe where I had Fate Core before I designed Dresden, I would likely have said that evocation blocks/wards/whatever are technically creating an advantage, and I probably would extend the success with style rules to say that there's another free invocation to stack on at 5 shifts, then again at 7, etc.
Then, the option would go to the caster as to how he wants to let those ablate - as invocations s/he checks off over time when s/he defends, or as an imposed obstacle that s/he gives a value to in the moment, using several of those at once. All the player has to worry about in the moment is "oh, something is bumping on my shield, I get to do something".
In the fiction, that would mean that the rubric for duration for that kind of thing would switch over to "as long as the spell energy lasts". Which some people would consider apropos for Dresden, in any case.
With my luck, though, that solution breaks eight other things in Dresden. :)
Thanks very much. I like the idea of Duration coming down to 'available spell energy' where you get multiple 'hits' according to how much energy is in it. Extra free Invocations at higher shifts seems like a good way of doing it, and it does seem more in keeping with the way Harry uses his shields than a shield of fixed duration. He generally seems to be able to hold his shields up indefinitely with them only draining him when he actually takes hits.
This does lead me to ask: Are there plans to release a short document updating the Dresden Magic and other systems (where necessary) to work with Fate Core? In the meantime I really like what you've done with the 3, 5, 7 etc. shift shield idea and I might just implement that as is!
It seems that this is a really easy way to implement any Evocation that lasts a matter of turns; you can sustain it with Fate Points after that, but once you're outta Fate points and out of free invocations, it's gone. Would you require an invocation every time the shield's used defensively if you were using the mechanic you suggested to stop it from lingering more than a few turns? Otherwise it would last the scene like any other 'sticky' Aspect, right?
Require an invocation? Probably not - for all practical intents and purposes, it's a scene aspect like any other, as you suggest.
So I could see charging up a shield when a fight starts and saving it a while for when you really need it.
That seems reasonable to me. Once you're out of Fate Points or tags it would only be a limited defence, so would represent the stage at which Harry's still just about holding up a guttering shield. I might be inclined to have an attack that went through it at that stage overcome the shield and put it out altogether, as it's on its last legs in those circumstances.
Let me make sure I have this right.
A shield spell of 7(4 discipline, 3 conviction/power, roll 0) shifts would be 4 free shield tags sitting around for the party to use... So they get 4 defensive actions at +2. Correct? Once those 4 actions are used its done? But the bad guys could instead use an attack roll of 7 shifts or higher to nullify the shield? Or 7 damage total on the shield?
How does this apply to wards, because he mentions them?
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Take a look at this summary: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wdDSLo9voAUbjTbDnKkbIW7LMWVKOnifHmwiFqw6A8c/edit (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wdDSLo9voAUbjTbDnKkbIW7LMWVKOnifHmwiFqw6A8c/edit)
Creating the shield aspect allows you to defend with Discipline as long as it's active.
The shield is active as long as you concentrate on it (a supplemental action), or until you fail to defend and 1 or more points of stress gets past the shield.
I'm not sure how wards would work yet...
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Take a look at this summary: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wdDSLo9voAUbjTbDnKkbIW7LMWVKOnifHmwiFqw6A8c/edit (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wdDSLo9voAUbjTbDnKkbIW7LMWVKOnifHmwiFqw6A8c/edit)
Creating the shield aspect allows you to defend with Discipline as long as it's active.
The shield is active as long as you concentrate on it (a supplemental action), or until you fail to defend and 1 or more points of stress gets past the shield.
I'm not sure how wards would work yet...
What if you're not the shieldholder. Does the shieldholder make the discipline rolls then? That seems... Broken if my whole party while the AOE shield is up can get the Wizard to roll +7 defense rolls for them... I did read the summary. There are just things I'm confused on.
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What if you're not the shieldholder. Does the shieldholder make the discipline rolls then? That seems... Broken if my whole party while the AOE shield is up can get the Wizard to roll +7 defense rolls for them... I did read the summary. There are just things I'm confused on.
"Only 1 Evocation can be sustained in this way at any given time." So you can't create a handful of shield aspects, just 1.
I agree that the caster making the defense rolls wouldn't work, but I'm not sure what a non-caster would use to control a shield. It would largely depend on the type of shield created. Possibly keeping it Discipline would keep it more likely to stay caster only.
I used this system in a play test, and used the Full Defense action to defend for a friend. Worked out very well.
That said, to protect all your friends in a zone, a barrier would work better.
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Per Character...
A pair of wizards defending the party could probably be nigh on impervious. Heck I'd take channeling SHield spell on anything possible...
But I can see somebody tagging, I'm behind a shield for a +2 using one of the free invocations.
Grumble. Trying to make this work could be broked...
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Disclaimer: I am bit rusty with DFRPG and have breezed through Fate Core once.
As far as I understand the amount of shifts caster uses on this only increases the amount of free invocations. They are usable for caster only, unless he uses 2 shifts to make it zonewide or uses his own action to defend another. Alternatively, create armor 1 per 2 shifts.
It can be used as a passive obstacle (Block ?) with base strenght of 2 shifts. Or to roll active defence with Discipline instead of Athletics. Caster can use those free invocations on both of these with normal +2 per invocation. Others can use the +2 on their own defence rolls .
With free invocations, once something breaks the shield it is gone and all remaining free invocations are lost. Caster must use supplemental action every round he wants to keep the shield on, even when no invocations are used.
Alternatively, caster can create armor 1 per 2 shifts. How each shift is used must be decided while casting. Armor remains after taking stress and stays as long as caster maintains it.
I dont know what happens when these are mixed and shield is pierced. Probably easier to make it either invocations or armor choice.
Shielding others is strong, but free invocations run out pretty fast agains a group of characters. Either caster uses his own actions to generate more, and takes stress normally from casting, or the shield aspect is invoked with fate points.
Strong, but not broken in my opinion.
Armor might get pretty crazy pretty fast. Lets say 10 refresh wizard, 7 power and control after focuses(focii?) and specializations. With 6 shifts that is armor 2 for everyone in one zone, easily controlled. Other than supplemental action every turn, caster can keep this up indefinitely and still throw power and control 6 spells around.
And that is not remotely optimized. Problem with armor is that other than taking out the wizard, there is not much opponents can do.
What happens when ally, for one reason or another changes zones? Does the protection disappear? What if he returns to that zone and caster has been maintaining the shield?
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Disclaimer: I am bit rusty with DFRPG and have breezed through Fate Core once.
As far as I understand the amount of shifts caster uses on this only increases the amount of free invocations. They are usable for caster only, unless he uses 2 shifts to make it zonewide or uses his own action to defend another. Alternatively, create armor 1 per 2 shifts.
It can be used as a passive obstacle (Block ?) with base strenght of 2 shifts. Or to roll active defence with Discipline instead of Athletics. Caster can use those free invocations on both of these with normal +2 per invocation. Others can use the +2 on their own defence rolls .
With free invocations, once something breaks the shield it is gone and all remaining free invocations are lost. Caster must use supplemental action every round he wants to keep the shield on, even when no invocations are used.
Alternatively, caster can create armor 1 per 2 shifts. How each shift is used must be decided while casting. Armor remains after taking stress and stays as long as caster maintains it.
I dont know what happens when these are mixed and shield is pierced. Probably easier to make it either invocations or armor choice.
Shielding others is strong, but free invocations run out pretty fast agains a group of characters. Either caster uses his own actions to generate more, and takes stress normally from casting, or the shield aspect is invoked with fate points.
Strong, but not broken in my opinion.
Armor might get pretty crazy pretty fast. Lets say 10 refresh wizard, 7 power and control after focuses(focii?) and specializations. With 6 shifts that is armor 2 for everyone in one zone, easily controlled. Other than supplemental action every turn, caster can keep this up indefinitely and still throw power and control 6 spells around.
And that is not remotely optimized. Problem with armor is that other than taking out the wizard, there is not much opponents can do.
What happens when ally, for one reason or another changes zones? Does the protection disappear? What if he returns to that zone and caster has been maintaining the shield?
I'd assumed zone wide on my calculations.
The free invokes do run out fast, but I'm sure Smart wizards can compensate...
As to the Armor. I'd take it the same way I've done every other exploitive thing my party has done. Make it less effective next time.
You do that, the local crime scene finds out and starts using Armor Piercing Bullets giving them an automatic +2 against armored targets. They won't do that just because you wear body armor, but they will if the wizards start making giant walls. If it keeps up they figure out circle traps, Running Water, etc. It keeps the players thinking and feeling clever.
Now, two wizards can still make zonewide armor really high, but I don't think armor spells stack. Magical interference and all, unless they both have aspects or powers that suggest they are excellant team players.(Or at least that's how I'd phrase it. Make them both spend 1 refresh on Pack Instincts(AKA teamwork training.)
So neither option is exceedingly broken... I suppose.
Although there are still blocks. It's just creating an advantage that requires an overcome roll of a certain strength really...
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I am still bit fuzzy about advantage things. Need to carefully re-read that part.
I think it was general rule that armor doesnt stack. Only the highest applies.
With two wizards one could maintain armor and the other generate free invocations.
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I am still bit fuzzy about advantage things. Need to carefully re-read that part.
I think it was general rule that armor doesnt stack. Only the highest applies.
With two wizards one could maintain armor and the other generate free invocations.
(Stacking RPG's is stupid frequently. Why wouldn't the armor the guy is wearing and the magical barrier not stop a bullet better?) Answer-Game Balance. Which can really mess with the narrative when the inexperienced player argues the point for too long(that would be me when I first started. Now I practically always wind up the DM/GM so I get my own say.)
It's stupid. I can argue magical barriers not stacking because getting two spells to mesh that well is unlikely. Hence making them work for it.
But that's an argument old as time.
I take the narrative law of collective awesome as far more important than game balance. When my character's ram up 5 armor worth of stuff it'll work. And then the next battle gets harder.(And I average a roll of -2 which keeps the PC's winning almost flawlessly.)
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Official rules have to have some semblance of game balance.
Each group is free to modify rules how they see fit. Personally I prefer to paly first with rules as written and see if there is something that needs to be modified.
The most important rules I know are 2 variants of rule zero: Thou shalt have fun and when rules get in the way of the story, ignore rules and tell the story.
I feel that. I think my roll distribution is about a triangle. Fail often and rarely get above average rolls. There was one session where I was completely unable to roll below 80 on a d100. (lower was better, 96+ autofail).
Then all that came back once when I rolled about half of my rolls as crits. With 10% crit chance :)
But back to topic. There is that magic system toolkit coming soon, maybe there are something similar or reworked DF style magic.
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Official rules have to have some semblance of game balance.
Each group is free to modify rules how they see fit. Personally I prefer to paly first with rules as written and see if there is something that needs to be modified.
The most important rules I know are 2 variants of rule zero: Thou shalt have fun and when rules get in the way of the story, ignore rules and tell the story.
I feel that. I think my roll distribution is about a triangle. Fail often and rarely get above average rolls. There was one session where I was completely unable to roll below 80 on a d100. (lower was better, 96+ autofail).
Then all that came back once when I rolled about half of my rolls as crits. With 10% crit chance :)
But back to topic. There is that magic system toolkit coming soon, maybe there are something similar or reworked DF style magic.
Not in what I'vce got regrettably. It's a suggested bunch of magic systems, but none of them go much into defense.
In addition they... don't have refresh costs most of the time. Fatecore has dropped refresh costs in favor of adding skills for magic systems.
So Harry would have to invest in Thaumaturgy and Evocation as skills and likely pay less refresh for them. Converting that is interesting, but there isn't much of anything on shield style stuff in it so far.
What there is is barriers between Zones and the ability to use said power as a defensive action. So In thoery Harry could roll Discipline for evocation as a defensive roll.
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Ok. I didn't have kickstarter account so I used quick option and used PayPal method of getting core. Sadly that means I dont have anything except the core book yet. I did buy the expansion level one, so I should get them some day.
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(Stacking RPG's is stupid frequently. Why wouldn't the armor the guy is wearing and the magical barrier not stop a bullet better?) Answer-Game Balance. Which can really mess with the narrative when the inexperienced player argues the point for too long(that would be me when I first started. Now I practically always wind up the DM/GM so I get my own say.)
It's stupid. I can argue magical barriers not stacking because getting two spells to mesh that well is unlikely. Hence making them work for it.
But that's an argument old as time.
I take the narrative law of collective awesome as far more important than game balance. When my character's ram up 5 armor worth of stuff it'll work. And then the next battle gets harder.(And I average a roll of -2 which keeps the PC's winning almost flawlessly.)
The general idea is having chainmail under your bulletproof vest doesn't provide quantifiably better protection than the bulletproof vest would on its own. Your magic shield is so good, whether your have a steel plate or a tshirt under it doesn't make a difference. If it's getting through the shield, that steel plate might as well be a tshirt.
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Because momentum doesn't do anything? That attack that was slowed down by the Armor 3 Magical barrier is suddenly going to not be afftected by other armor.
With the chainmail under the bulletproof vest they defend against different things.Bulletproofing does jack against bladed weapons most of the time and chainmail versus bullet is not going to end well for the guy in chain mail. I get that. In D&D it's assumed your Full Plate includes the chainmail underbits anyway. But when it comes to two different sources, It is just silly. ANd the same does applyt to Wizaards working well together and making stronger armor. They should be able to. It's cool, but takes work to manage.
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Because momentum doesn't do anything? That attack that was slowed down by the Armor 3 Magical barrier is suddenly going to not be afftected by other armor.
With the chainmail under the bulletproof vest they defend against different things.Bulletproofing does jack against bladed weapons most of the time and chainmail versus bullet is not going to end well for the guy in chain mail. I get that. In D&D it's assumed your Full Plate includes the chainmail underbits anyway. But when it comes to two different sources, It is just silly. ANd the same does applyt to Wizaards working well together and making stronger armor. They should be able to. It's cool, but takes work to manage.
They can. By maneuvering and working together. Not casting the same spell twice.
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They can. By maneuvering and working together. Not casting the same spell twice.
That's a pretty impractical use of stress given the fact the number of manuevers it would take to give a boost equal to a Wizard's spell power level(about3) means they are better off splitting into an offensive caster and a defensive caster who holds his action until someone throws out a big attack(which only works once RAW)
Teamwork should be rewarded... But defensive teamwork rarely does in RPG's.
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That's a pretty impractical use of stress given the fact the number of manuevers it would take to give a boost equal to a Wizard's spell power level(about3) means they are better off splitting into an offensive caster and a defensive caster who holds his action until someone throws out a big attack(which only works once RAW)
Teamwork should be rewarded... But defensive teamwork rarely does in RPG's.
Why cast a spell? Maneuver to make the other person cast better. Don't waste a spell/mental stress. A maneuver grants a +2 if you pass the tag. Make a declaration too, and now you've got +4. Not insubstantial.
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Why cast a spell? Maneuver to make the other person cast better. Don't waste a spell/mental stress. A maneuver grants a +2 if you pass the tag. Make a declaration too, and now you've got +4. Not insubstantial.
Explain to me a manuever that doesn't involve magic that boosts the magical strength of a zone wide armor evocation. And don't tell me yelling inspiring things?
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Explain to me a manuever that doesn't involve magic that boosts the magical strength of a zone wide armor evocation. And don't tell me yelling inspiring things?
lighting some incense, putting on some Kenny G?
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lighting some incense, putting on some Kenny G?
Incense on a battlefield won't help focus and as for Kenny G? I don't see it. Maybe throwing on some Ozzy... But that doesn't take a wizard anyway, and will likely get fried by said wizard... I can say those would both work great for a wizard in a circle using Thaumaturgy. But not Evocation when armor is needed.
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Explain to me a manuever that doesn't involve magic that boosts the magical strength of a zone wide armor evocation. And don't tell me yelling inspiring things?
You're falling into a mind set that a lot of people do with magic in this game. That the mundane can't impact the magical.
Remember a maneuver does not have to directly interact with the magic to make it more effective. How loose you can play this depends on the GM, but it's possible.
Example: Vinilla Mortal lobs a flashbang gernade to create the aspect "blind and disoriented" on the enemy. A GM may then allow the wizard creating a zone wide armor evocation to tag that aspect when casting. The rationalization? The enemy is having a much harder time landing direct hits to the point where they aren't as lethal, and allow this to be represented as additional armor bonus on the spell.
Remember, armor and stress is more abstract than it is literal.
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Explain to me a manuever that doesn't involve magic that boosts the magical strength of a zone wide armor evocation. And don't tell me yelling inspiring things.
Dousing everyone in water to avoid a fire attack. Throwing a flashbang or turning off the lights to weaken the attack being defended against.Those are off the top of my head.
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You're falling into a mind set that a lot of people do with magic in this game. That the mundane can't impact the magical.
Remember a maneuver does not have to directly interact with the magic to make it more effective. How loose you can play this depends on the GM, but it's possible.
Example: Vinilla Mortal lobs a flashbang gernade to create the aspect "blind and disoriented" on the enemy. A GM may then allow the wizard creating a zone wide armor evocation to tag that aspect when casting. The rationalization? The enemy is having a much harder time landing direct hits to the point where they aren't as lethal, and allow this to be represented as additional armor bonus on the spell.
Remember, armor and stress is more abstract than it is literal.
Right. because that's just another Flashbang affect. There is a set of rules for that. Aspects are the catch all for the game. They work wonders. Abstracting other game mechanics like that... It messes with the players. Armor is something that physically slows the bullets.
And it isn't anything to do with the system. It has a whole lot to do with the gameworld where Magic is pretty much affected by magic on the positive side of things. There are a multitude of ways to weaken it. But few to strengthen it that a mortal can handle.
Off the top of my head the closest things seen have been the times Harry pulled energy from one place to another. I can see someone starting a car and the wizard yanking the internal combustion energy to power a spell. But I can't say that's a manuever. Possibly an application of the drive skill to keep it going while so much energy is being drained.
Your flashbang thing is an aspect giving a free tag to dodge. How does one use a spell to enhance that effect? More light and sound sure. But making that armor is silly and unnecessary.
The water to stop fire is an aspect allowing tags against the attack. Not armor. It can give the aspect wet which can be tagged to boost water spells. But the water was already there(nearby) in all reality and so could be tagged without the action to unleash it.
Now, i've got you stretching pretty far on that one, which makes my point well enough. It's all very very situational. The characters are more likely to be by a layline.
Now, a thing I noticed while looking through the fatecore stuff.
None of the magic systems appear to cause mental stress. Thoughts? It reinforces my thought that the refresh costs of evocation powers in DFRPG are higher than they would be in Fatecore. However I also don't see weapon values so I could be wrong. But I think it might be interesting that using the powers at 0 weapon value might be a zero stress action then. SO for instance dodging with Discipline via a quickly raised shield that deflects the bullet for 0 stress.
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Right. because that's just another Flashbang affect. There is a set of rules for that. Aspects are the catch all for the game. They work wonders. Abstracting other game mechanics like that... It messes with the players. Armor is something that physically slows the bullets.
And it isn't anything to do with the system. It has a whole lot to do with the gameworld where Magic is pretty much affected by magic on the positive side of things. There are a multitude of ways to weaken it. But few to strengthen it that a mortal can handle.
Off the top of my head the closest things seen have been the times Harry pulled energy from one place to another. I can see someone starting a car and the wizard yanking the internal combustion energy to power a spell. But I can't say that's a manuever. Possibly an application of the drive skill to keep it going while so much energy is being drained.
Your flashbang thing is an aspect giving a free tag to dodge. How does one use a spell to enhance that effect? More light and sound sure. But making that armor is silly and unnecessary.
The water to stop fire is an aspect allowing tags against the attack. Not armor. It can give the aspect wet which can be tagged to boost water spells. But the water was already there(nearby) in all reality and so could be tagged without the action to unleash it.
Now, i've got you stretching pretty far on that one, which makes my point well enough. It's all very very situational. The characters are more likely to be by a layline.
Now, a thing I noticed while looking through the fatecore stuff.
None of the magic systems appear to cause mental stress. Thoughts? It reinforces my thought that the refresh costs of evocation powers in DFRPG are higher than they would be in Fatecore. However I also don't see weapon values so I could be wrong. But I think it might be interesting that using the powers at 0 weapon value might be a zero stress action then. SO for instance dodging with Discipline via a quickly raised shield that deflects the bullet for 0 stress.
Wow, your view of magic is very narrow and restricting. Especially in Dresden's world where magic is fueled by belief and fighting spirit.
Why wouldn't the drive roll you mention be a maneuver to place the Combustion Energy aspect on the scene?
I think you're too tied in to a specific interpretation of the rules. FATE is best at being a free-form, "yeah, it does exactly that cool thing you just came up with" system. Let me ask you this: Imagine for a moment that you're playing FATE basic, without any setting-specific rules or Powers and just using aspects. Would you let someone be a wizard? Why not?
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Right. because that's just another Flashbang affect. There is a set of rules for that. Aspects are the catch all for the game. They work wonders. Abstracting other game mechanics like that... It messes with the players. Armor is something that physically slows the bullets.
And it isn't anything to do with the system. It has a whole lot to do with the gameworld where Magic is pretty much affected by magic on the positive side of things. There are a multitude of ways to weaken it. But few to strengthen it that a mortal can handle.
Off the top of my head the closest things seen have been the times Harry pulled energy from one place to another. I can see someone starting a car and the wizard yanking the internal combustion energy to power a spell. But I can't say that's a manuever. Possibly an application of the drive skill to keep it going while so much energy is being drained.
Your flashbang thing is an aspect giving a free tag to dodge. How does one use a spell to enhance that effect? More light and sound sure. But making that armor is silly and unnecessary.
The water to stop fire is an aspect allowing tags against the attack. Not armor. It can give the aspect wet which can be tagged to boost water spells. But the water was already there(nearby) in all reality and so could be tagged without the action to unleash it.
Now, i've got you stretching pretty far on that one, which makes my point well enough. It's all very very situational. The characters are more likely to be by a layline.
Now, a thing I noticed while looking through the fatecore stuff.
None of the magic systems appear to cause mental stress. Thoughts? It reinforces my thought that the refresh costs of evocation powers in DFRPG are higher than they would be in Fatecore. However I also don't see weapon values so I could be wrong. But I think it might be interesting that using the powers at 0 weapon value might be a zero stress action then. SO for instance dodging with Discipline via a quickly raised shield that deflects the bullet for 0 stress.
I think you're grossly undervaluing how aspects work and what they can do. Throwing a flashbang as a maneuver isn't just a "free tag to dodge". It's anything the aspect created by the maneuver can justify. An aspect of "blinded and disoriented" can be used to get a +2 to a defense roll or attack roll, it could be tagged for effect to make someone drop their weapon, or to cause them to accidentally shoot the teammate in front of them. Or anything else a clever player may think of. You don't have to determine the effect an aspect has until ts tagged or invoked.
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More specifically relevant to the issue of stacking armour is the fact that the scale for such things in DFrpg (and FATE in general) is very much non-linear.
A pocket-knife is weapon:1. Armour that generally negates the advantage an attacker would otherwise have by using a pocket-knife (as compared to an average individual making use of fists and feet, etc.) is armour:1.
Most pistols are weapon:2, as are most one-handed swords. A mundane version of armour:2 is likely some variation on a kevlar vest, or a suit of mail (aka 'chainmail').
An anti-personel grenade or high-powered rifle (heavy sniper rifle or light anti-material rifle) is around weapon:4. A mundane version of armour:4 is probably pretty close to the sort of thing worn by professionals trying to defuse a bomb. It's definitely not a piddly little kevlar vest worn over (or under) some chainmail, even if one of them is mundane and one of them is made of pure force held together by the will of a Practitioner of the Art.
Armour:4 + Armour:1 is such a far cry from Armour:5 that it's not worth accounting for, and what that character is left with is Armour:4.