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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: sjsharks on November 29, 2012, 06:00:54 PM
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First thing is first. I have made a very important discovery about Nemesis. It is... the Vord.
After my last topic slowly devolved into the Salem Witch trials, I decided it would be better to instead make a list of those that we are certain are not infected with Nemesis.
- Mouse.
- Mister.
- Harry (possible immunity due to Starborn)
Elaine (possible immunity due to Starborn)- Mab
- Lea
- Molly
- Demonreach
- Sarissa
- Lara (and her inner circle as per Maeve's attempt to use Justine as a vector to Lara)
- Justine
- Thomas
- Lara's suriving sisters
- Rashid
- Nicodemus (at least at the point of SmF)
feel free to contribute ;D ;D
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Well if Nemesis is something from the Outsiders then there is a fair chance that Harry and possibly Elaine are both immune or at the very least uncontrolled by the infection as they are Outsider Banes.
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Well if Nemesis is something from the Outsiders then there is a fair chance that Harry and possibly Elaine are both immune or at the very least uncontrolled by the infection as they are Outsider Banes.
Added
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Elaine (possible immunity due to Starborn)
Elaine should definitely not be on that list. Much as I like her she's one of the least trustworthy of Harry's friends.
We have no idea whether being Starborn grants immunity against the outsiders influence. I would think not, since they keep trying to recruit Harry, and he's not immune to their mind magic. We know Justin did get to Elaine and he's a known outsider ally. She was also close to Aurora, who was very likely "infected".
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The Gatekeeper
Mab
Demonreach
Those three we can say with a fair degree of certainty are not.
If Rashid was infected, the war would be over as he could allow all the infected through the gates.
If Mab was infected, the war would be over as she would pull her troops from the walls.
If Demonreach was infected, the war would be over as they could bring down prison wall.
All others should be suspected, which is what Rashid and Mab are/have done.
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Lara
Thomas
Justine
Lea
Mac
Molly
The Carpenter Family
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Why are we so certain that Elaine is an outsider bane? is there a WOJ? ???
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The Gatekeeper
Mab
Demonreach
Those three we can say with a fair degree of certainty are not.
If Rashid was infected, the war would be over as he could allow all the infected through the gates.
If Mab was infected, the war would be over as she would pull her troops from the walls.
If Demonreach was infected, the war would be over as they could bring down prison wall.
All others should be suspected, which is what Rashid and Mab are/have done.
I am willing to add Mab and DR to the list, but not Rashid. I mean, come on. Nemesis is getting through.
Lara
Thomas
Justine
Lea
Mac
Molly
The Carpenter Family
Lara, Justine, Lea, and Molly. other then that we can't be sure.
Why are we so certain that Elaine is an outsider bane? is there a WOJ? ???
yes, WoJ says that it is the reason Justin picked both Harry and Elaine
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The Carpenter Family
Lara, Justine, Lea, and Molly. other then that we can't be sure.
They have WG supernatural insurance. I think Uriel would have noticed.
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I doubt Harry is immune. I think HHWB4 wanted Harry for infection at the bar. Also we aren't clear on the details of the parasite yet, but the stirring at the outer gates sure looks suspicious.
We have to be careful who we declare as clear since Jim has said that we will get some supprises on who is actually enemy.
I agree about Mab and Demonreach being clear. I think the last topic had some good points on Lara being clear because of Maeve wanting Justine as a vector to her.
I am absolutely convinced that Nic was clear as of SmF, and I'm pretty certain he is still clear just because I am betting Harry will end up having to be frenemies with him in book 15 per Mab's orders for the sake of fighting Nemesis. (anyone want to take me up on that bet? The bet wouldn't include the Mab's orders part)
Players I'm comfortable saying I don't think are infected, but I can't give great evidence for:
Eldest Gruff
Odin
Mother Summer
Rashid
I'm uncomfortable saying Mother Winter but it seems that way.
Edit cause the replies are coming in fast:
I am willing to add Mab and DR to the list, but not Rashid. I mean, come on. Nemesis is getting through.
Good point
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Lara, Justine, Lea, and Molly. other then that we can't be sure.They have WG supernatural insurance. I think Uriel would have noticed.
The Outsiders are not their fight though. The Swords couldn't even be raised in the fight coming against Nemesis. It is not of our existence, so I don't think that it is outside the realm of possibility to infect one of them.
Also, the angels can only keep them safe as long as they stay out of the action. Once they start making choices then their guard can't do much. Daniel, for one, strikes me as a very active boy that has done some strange things.
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I think so. Someone with better knowledge of the WOJ (Serack/CuriousFan) would know better but iirc to be starborn you had to be a wizard/witch and be born at a certain time of year and in a specific year. Harry and Elaine both fit into these qualifications.
As for it granting immunity, I believe it does otherwise Harry would've been infected when he was 16 and if Justin was infected he wouldn't have needed to enthrall them, just infect them. Also the Outsiders that Harry has met have attempted to recruit him, not kidnap and infect him. That being said I do believe that Elaine may be working for the other side. If they attempted to recruit Harry logically they would try to recruit her as well. Also the amount of trust that both the Gatekeeper and Mab place in Harry allows them to be fairly positive in his allegiance and from before they really knew him as well.
Others who are definitely not infected: Mother Summer and Winter, same reasoning as Mab and Gatekeeper, if they were infected they would have enough power to destroy the gate. Also Titania, for similar reasons as if she were infected she would have full blown attacked Winter and at the very least weakened Mab giving the Outsiders their opportunity to break through the gates.
Angels, Archangels and God aren't because of the above reasons. Sanya for being a KotC. Drakkul, Ferro, and Odin. Really anyone with a payscale big enough to go head to head with Mab and be an actual threat to her.
Edit: Forgot the scene with Maeve talking about taking Justine to get to Lara. Although it could just be a front trying to get Harry, Mab and crew to trust Lara.
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I agree about Mab and Demonreach being clear. I think the last topic had some good points on Lara being clear because of Maeve wanting Justine as a vector to her.
Thomas by the same reasoning as Justine. He could get to Lara just as easily.
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Elaine should definitely not be on that list. Much as I like her she's one of the least trustworthy of Harry's friends.
We have no idea whether being Starborn grants immunity against the outsiders influence. I would think not, since they keep trying to recruit Harry, and he's not immune to their mind magic. We know Justin did get to Elaine and he's a known outsider ally. She was also close to Aurora, who was very likely "infected".
Also, Lash said that being Starborn gave you the potential to wield great power over Outsiders. Not the same thing as having the power at beck & call.
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The Outsiders are not their fight though. The Swords couldn't even be raised in the fight coming against Nemesis. It is not of our existence, so I don't think that it is outside the realm of possibility to infect one of them.
Also, the angels can only keep them safe as long as they stay out of the action. Once they start making choices then their guard can't do much. Daniel, for one, strikes me as a very active boy that has done some strange things.
The thing with this is that if they were infected they would be able to end the war in a second. If any of the Archangels or God were infected they would just go smash the Outer Gates. As for lesser Angels, God and the Archangels would be able to sense it in them and heal them of it instantly.
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I think so. Someone with better knowledge of the WOJ (Serack/CuriousFan) would know better but iirc to be starborn you had to be a wizard/witch and be born at a certain time of year and in a specific year. Harry and Elaine both fit into these qualifications.
As for it granting immunity, I believe it does otherwise Harry would've been infected when he was 16 and if Justin was infected he wouldn't have needed to enthrall them, just infect them. Also the Outsiders that Harry has met have attempted to recruit him, not kidnap and infect him. That being said I do believe that Elaine may be working for the other side. If they attempted to recruit Harry logically they would try to recruit her as well. Also the amount of trust that both the Gatekeeper and Mab place in Harry allows them to be fairly positive in his allegiance and from before they really knew him as well.
Others who are definitely not infected: Mother Summer and Winter, same reasoning as Mab and Gatekeeper, if they were infected they would have enough power to destroy the gate. Also Titania, for similar reasons as if she were infected she would have full blown attacked Winter and at the very least weakened Mab giving the Outsiders their opportunity to break through the gates.
Angels, Archangels and God aren't because of the above reasons. Sanya for being a KotC. Drakkul, Ferro, and Odin. Really anyone with a payscale big enough to go head to head with Mab and be an actual threat to her.
I would definitely not put Thomas, Lara, or Justine on this list though. They have all spent a good amount of time near Papa Raith (at least through proxy of Lara) who has a very good chance to be at least somewhat connected to the Outsiders.
Here you go
Q: Is Elaine another candidate to wield power over Outsiders (the way Harry supposedly is)?
A: Yes. There’s a reason Justin picked the two of them.
I think you are underestimating the brainy ness of the Outsiders. There is a very good chance that they have more cards then they are showing, and are trying not to blow all of their secrets at once.
Lara and Justine are not infected yet, Maeve was very excited to get the chance to infect Justine so that she could have someone close to Lara.
The thing with this is that if they were infected they would be able to end the war in a second. If any of the Archangels or God were infected they would just go smash the Outer Gates. As for lesser Angels, God and the Archangels would be able to sense it in them and heal them of it instantly.
We don't know whether they could sense it though.
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I am willing to add Mab and DR to the list, but not Rashid. I mean, come on. Nemesis is getting through.
Actually it got through once and is infecting from its original source (whomever the Athame belonged to originally probably), Rashid on their team would be disastrous, as he controls the gates.
Lara, Justine, Lea, and Molly. other then that we can't be sure.
Actually, Lea on that group is the only one that is assured, and her by virtue of having been infected once.
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Thomas
and I also I hear your case for Rashid, but I don't buy it. Rashid is not infected.
I also don't think Fix is.
Also question: Can normal humans be infected? Murphy, Butters? Marcone?
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Actually it got through once and is infecting from its original source (whomever the Athame belonged to originally probably), Rashid on their team would be disastrous, as he controls the gates.Actually, Lea on that group is the only one that is assured, and her by virtue of having been infected once.
Lara and Justine both have textual evidence supporting them
Thomas
and I also I hear your case for Rashid, but I don't buy it. Rashid is not infected.
I also don't think Fix is.
Also question: Can normal humans be infected? Murphy, Butters? Marcone?
I don't think Rashid is infected either, I am just saying that he is more of a possibility then some other people
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Also, what about Bob? Is it even possible?
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Thomas by the same reasoning as Justine. He could get to Lara just as easily.
Actually we can expand this to encompas pretty much anyone in lara's inner circle.
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SJS, do you mind if I tinker with some bulleting on your list? (or I'll edit in a suggestion here in a few min and you can decide to incorporate it into your OP)
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SJS, do you mind if I tinker with some bulleting on your list? (or I'll edit in a suggestion here in a few min and you can decide to incorporate it into your OP)
be my guest
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We don't know whether they could sense it though.
Mab could sense it in her Daughter and both of them are much much much younger than God and His Angels. God would be able to sense it in His sons and daughters, and Uriel/other Archangels would be able to sense it in his/her siblings. Hell Harry noticed it in Sith and he knew him for all of a month. There is no way that God or the Archangels could be corrupted because as I said if they were the war would be over, and because they cannot be infected neither can the lower ranking angels.
As for vanillas I am absolutely certain that they could. If not Rashid or Mother Summer would have told him that he could trust them. I also think that Murphy's behavior was very suspect in Cold Days.
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Lara and Justine both have textual evidence supporting them
No they have textual evidence from a known infected agent implying (but not out right saying) that they are not infected.
If Nemesis completely replaces your will with its; Maeve hints that Justine or Lara are not infected when one or the other is, because there is a chance that Harry and Co are successful and it doesn't want to lose a more a highly placed foe.
If Nemesis doesn't replace your will with its; Maeve wants to interogate Justine for the exact reason she lays out.
I don't think Rashid is infected either, I am just saying that he is more of a possibility then some other people
He really isn't. If Rashid is infected, the war is over. Its why him, DR, and Mab are the only ones I will say with 99.99% certainty are not infected. The end result of their infection is loss of reality, since reality exists they can't be infected.
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Not to keep screaming my own theory every time someone says something related, but....i think Harry is infected, has been since he was 16. We have no evidence, that I can think of, to define outsiderbane. It could as easily mean the person who defeats the outsiders as much as it could mean immunity to them. So I think, for the reasons already stated, Mab, Rashid, Uriel, Odin are not infected because too powerful. Infected would be the end of the story. The logic against Lara being infected makes sense. Other than that..'Everyone's a suspect.'
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Mab could sense it in her Daughter and both of them are much much much younger than God and His Angels. God would be able to sense it in His sons and daughters, and Uriel/other Archangels would be able to sense it in his/her siblings. Hell Harry noticed it in Sith and he knew him for all of a month. There is no way that God or the Archangels could be corrupted because as I said if they were the war would be over, and because they cannot be infected neither can the lower ranking angels.
Harry realizing it in Sith is more Harry is an investigator, and so can put pieces together, than him Sensing it in Sith. I think its safe to say the Archangels and WG are not infected for the same reason one can presume that Mab, Rashid, and DR are not.
As for vanillas I am absolutely certain that they could. If not Rashid or Mother Summer would have told him that he could trust them. I also think that Murphy's behavior was very suspect in Cold Days.
Murphy...I could see, but this is more Who isn't, than Who Might Be. The reality is the Nemesis is much more insidious by making Everyone suspect.
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Not to keep screaming my own theory every time someone says something related, but....i think Harry is infected, has been since he was 16. We have no evidence, that I can think of, to define outsiderbane. It could as easily mean the person who defeats the outsiders as much as it could mean immunity to them. So I think, for the reasons already stated, Mab, Rashid, Uriel, Odin are not infected because too powerful. Infected would be the end of the story. The logic against Lara being infected makes sense. Other than that..'Everyone's a suspect.'
I think its hard to accept Harry is infected due to the fact that he stalls or outright stops the plans of the infected too often. While I am not sold on the White King being infected, he stopped Aurora and we know she was infected. We have strong evidence that the first Fivish books were all infected enemies, and Harry killed them all.
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For me, the question isn't whether tWG *could* sense the infection in someone, but whether he/she would intervene even if tWG had the knowledge. I think the answer is no. Now archangels...they seem freer to nudge events, but outright curing someone of infection? I think that is too direct an intervention against events occurring as a result of free will. I dont think they would be curing anyone either. Yes, reality may end eventually as a result, but I dont think that changes anything
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Mab could sense it in her Daughter and both of them are much much much younger than God and His Angels. God would be able to sense it in His sons and daughters, and Uriel/other Archangels would be able to sense it in his/her siblings. Hell Harry noticed it in Sith and he knew him for all of a month. There is no way that God or the Archangels could be corrupted because as I said if they were the war would be over, and because they cannot be infected neither can the lower ranking angels.
As for vanillas I am absolutely certain that they could. If not Rashid or Mother Summer would have told him that he could trust them. I also think that Murphy's behavior was very suspect in Cold Days.
Harry noticed it in Sith because he was directly breaking his word and his bonds, and the Sidhe just don't do that.
Even if TWG and Archangles could detect it, they can't act to do anything about it. Other then placing a very smart wizard close enough to find out and help cure the person ;)
No they have textual evidence from a known infected agent implying (but not out right saying) that they are not infected.
If Nemesis completely replaces your will with its; Maeve hints that Justine or Lara are not infected when one or the other is, because there is a chance that Harry and Co are successful and it doesn't want to lose a more a highly placed foe.
If Nemesis doesn't replace your will with its; Maeve wants to interogate Justine for the exact reason she lays out.He really isn't. If Rashid is infected, the war is over. Its why him, DR, and Mab are the only ones I will say with 99.99% certainty are not infected. The end result of their infection is loss of reality, since reality exists they can't be infected.
Justine and Lara still have some form of proof they are infected, even if it isn't the most trust worthy source.
I will add Rashid to the list
I think its hard to accept Harry is infected due to the fact that he stalls or outright stops the plans of the infected too often. While I am not sold on the White King being infected, he stopped Aurora and we know she was infected. We have strong evidence that the first Fivish books were all infected enemies, and Harry killed them all.
When did the White King stop Aurora? Also, he works with the Outsiders directly and has them blocking him from magic
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When did the White King stop Aurora? Also, he works with the Outsiders directly and has them blocking him from magic
That's conjecture.
Very good conjecture, but conjecture. We don't know that's what's protecting him.
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Remember how Harry told Cat Sith that he could fight the control of the infection? I think thats some kind of hint about Harry's infection. He's been fighting off the control of his infection, mostly successfully, for 30 some years. Harry's mostly in the driver's seat and he is fighting the outsiders, externally and internally. I cant put the link here, but if you're interested read my recent thread: Crazy HWWB Theory Revisited
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That's conjecture.
Very good conjecture, but conjecture. We don't know that's what's protecting him.
Well, he is working directly with HWWB. And when Vitto was working with HWWB he had the exact same magic shrugging off power.
Of course it is always possible that it is something we don't know. But if were gonna say that then you might as well say Mister isn't TWG ;D
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Nobody responded to my thoughts on Nic (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35149.msg1678243.html#msg1678243) being clean
If you added him to your list, I'd put:
Nicodemus (at least at the point of SmF)
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Nobody responded to my thoughts on Nic (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35149.msg1678243.html#msg1678243) being clean
If you added him to your list, I'd put:
Nicodemus (at least at the point of SmF)
Sorry about that, too many posts to reply to at once.
I agree that Nic was free of Nemesis then.
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Justine's reaction to Maeves comment was questionable, but Maeves comment is enough to convince me that Justine isn't infected. Almost surprised Maeve knew who Justine was.
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Well, I think Nic is not infected, my reason isnt that great-mainly because how perverse it would for Harry to have to team up with him against the greater threat, nemesis.
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Mab/Lea can pretty well vouch for Molly. Otherwise Mab would be in the same boat as the start of CD.
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Well, I think Nic is not infected, my reason isnt that great-mainly because how perverse it would for Harry to have to team up with him against the greater threat, nemesis.
Haha, given that Jim has said that he makes his living off of making Harry miserable, we can assume that all of the nicest good people in the series will be infected, while the worst of the evil will not be
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Yeah, but I think we have to assume that at least one of the Denarians is infected. And if we have to assume that, then we must consider the fact that Ivy might be infected as well.
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Yeah, but I think we have to assume that at least one of the Denarians is infected. And if we have to assume that, then we must consider the fact that Ivy might be infected as well.
I am fairly certain that Thorned Namshiel was infected.
It wouldn't surprise me too much if Ivy was infected.
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Harry noticed it in Sith because he was directly breaking his word and his bonds, and the Sidhe just don't do that.
Yea his keen investigative abilities.
Justine and Lara still have some form of proof they are infected, even if it isn't the most trust worthy source.
I assume you mean aren't infected, I agree, but its not 100% assured, and with Nemesis its almost safer to presume infection then not especially where bad girl(s) are.
When did the White King stop Aurora? Also, he works with the Outsiders directly and has them blocking him from magic
that was me free thinking and combining sentences. I meant I wasn't sold, because Harry had already been a thorn in his side and would have been removed at the mansion fucking the rules of guests.
In fact, I think I can state that the White King isn't infected, because he still put propriety on the standards of his court and behaved in a normal manner. He utilized the outsiders as tools and weapons, but was still a weakling in the end of it because Harry's Mom's Curse. If he was infected the curse too Might have been shrugged off.
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My reasoning for Nic being clean is because now that we have a clearer picture of what is actually going on in the background rather than the narrow "Black Council" conspiracy, these new lenses in our glasses allow us to clearly interpret Nic's side of the conversation in the Shedd as his awareness of Nemesis and his intent to fight it.
Jim has said at some of the pre-release interviews and Q&A's that pretty much all the major powers are aware that the game is changing. Nic's stance on this is in our face obvious, but maybe there are some other clues that we can look back on in past books and point to them as evidence for other beings that belong on this list at least in the past tense like Nic.
edit: Egad you people are posting fast
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Yeah, but I think we have to assume that at least one of the Denarians is infected. And if we have to assume that, then we must consider the fact that Ivy might be infected as well.
Ivy falls into the same category as Mab, Rashid and Demonreach. If she is infected the game is over and we have lost; therefor she hasn't been infected.
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But couldnt the same argument be made against Ivy being infected as against Mab, Rashid, Uriel, or DemonReach? That they are so powerful it would be game over if Nemesis took them over?
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Yeah, but I think we have to assume that at least one of the Denarians is infected. And if we have to assume that, then we must consider the fact that Ivy might be infected as well.
SmF seems to give time and opportunity to get both Ivy and Marcone assuming that there is at least one infected Denarian. Marcone did make a trip to the Vatican for an unknown reason during GS
Ivy falls into the same category as Mab, Rashid and Demonreach. If she is infected the game is over and we have lost; therefor she hasn't been infected.
Why does Ivy mean game over exactly?
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I am fairly certain that Thorned Namshiel was infected.
It wouldn't surprise me too much if Ivy was infected.
Ivy is going to be a wild card. Eventually Ivy is going to make a choice that would endanger the archive. This will will make everyone start to wonder if she is infected or if it is just the human portions of her that Harry named. So I wouldn't put Ivy up just yet in either category.
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And just because she was infected, I don't think that the takeover is always as quick as it was in Cat Sith's case. Ivy could have been fighting it for the last 4 years. Or maybe she found another way to beat it.
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Why does Ivy mean game over exactly?
She has all the knowledge of mankind that is ever written down, which means she knows the outergates and Demonreach. She also has the magical ability of at Least the Ladies. If she was infected, she could arrange for Rashid to be detained and killed, allowing outsiders to pour over the walls. To say nothing of the fact that at the very Least Nemesis allows beings without free will free will, and she was still bound by the rules in her mantle in Changes.
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Using the previous analysis done of the "Black Council" in the past as a stepping stone, it seems as though most of the beings that the Nemesis had infected and used had the common atribute of ambition. These people were not puppets though, but were being twisted towards Nemesis' goals.
This kinda brings up the question to me. Could Maeve not have known who was infected outside her sphere of influence (I.E. since she was not a sock puppet and thus wasn't omnicient on the Nemesis' plans) and thus was excited about a vector to Lara while being ignorant of her status? Thomas sure did make a big deal about Lara's actions changing lately. In an Ambitious nature. Which equates to two huge red flags to me.
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I meant I wasn't sold, because Harry had already been a thorn in his side and would have been removed at the mansion fucking the rules of guests.
In fact, I think I can state that the White King isn't infected, because he still put propriety on the standards of his court and behaved in a normal manner. He utilized the outsiders as tools and weapons, but was still a weakling in the end of it because Harry's Mom's Curse. If he was infected the curse too Might have been shrugged off.
The WK could have killed Harry, but it would have made him lose all of his power, and would have made him worthless to Nemesis.
Where do we have anything showing infection with Nemesis allowing for resistance of magic? I thought him shrugging magic off was more HWWB's work.
edit: Egad you people are posting fast
way too freaking fast
Ivy falls into the same category as Mab, Rashid and Demonreach. If she is infected the game is over and we have lost; therefor she hasn't been infected.
a few things on this.
1. Ivy can possibly fight it with her massive amount of will power.
2. She has been in contact with an Outsider, and had an Outsider with her at one point
3. The end of the world is coming. And Harry's enemies are just getting stronger and stronger
4. Harry would hate to fight Ivy
seriously... 7 new posts while typing...
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Using the previous analysis done of the "Black Council" in the past as a stepping stone, it seems as though most of the beings that the Nemesis had infected and used had the common atribute of ambition. These people were not puppets though, but were being twisted towards Nemesis' goals.
This kinda brings up the question to me. Could Maeve not have known who was infected outside her sphere of influence (I.E. since she was not a sock puppet and thus wasn't omnicient on the Nemesis' plans) and thus was excited about a vector to Lara while being ignorant of her status? Thomas sure did make a big deal about Lara's actions changing lately. In an Ambitious nature. Which equates to two huge red flags to me.
There could also be several... factions... of Nemesis or similar beings
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There could also be several... factions... of Nemesis or similar beings
Actually, strike that. The Outsiders work together. All of them.
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Yes, the outsiders work together, but an infection mutates a bit inside each different person. I dont think we know enough about Nemesis to know if it would be the exact same in every person
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The WK could have killed Harry, but it would have made him lose all of his power, and would have made him worthless to Nemesis.
Where do we have anything showing infection with Nemesis allowing for resistance of magic? I thought him shrugging magic off was more HWWB's work.
We don't, but the fact he works with HWWB isn't a point that he would be infected, and the fact of the matter is he would be free of the curse if it was Nemesis protecting him instead of HWWB, as Nemesis is part of him and HWWB is just a servant of sorts.
I'm just saying assuming he is infected maybe a wrong step. Though if he is, Lara is as well as he is still alive.
a few things on this.
1. Ivy can possibly fight it with her massive amount of will power.
She has massive amounts of magic power, not will power. She has the will power of a young child.
2. She has been in contact with an Outsider, and had an Outsider with her at one point
3. The end of the world is coming. And Harry's enemies are just getting stronger and stronger
4. Harry would hate to fight Ivy
When did she have contact with an Outsider?
seriously... 7 new posts while typing...
I know I am missing like a third of them as this discussion is too much fun and I barely have time to keep up with you.
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Actually, strike that. The Outsiders work together. All of them.
Actually we only have Harry's perspective that they do. There is some ancillary evidence that they don't. Notably the fact that Harry still breathes despite him being 'outsider bane' and HWWB having had a free shot at a young Harry.
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We don't, but the fact he works with HWWB isn't a point that he would be infected, and the fact of the matter is he would be free of the curse if it was Nemesis protecting him instead of HWWB, as Nemesis is part of him and HWWB is just a servant of sorts.
I'm just saying assuming he is infected maybe a wrong step. Though if he is, Lara is as well as he is still alive.
I don't think I'm understanding what your saying at the end there. But why would Nemesis be able to have blocked Maggie's death curse? It targeted his Hunger, not him.
She has massive amounts of magic power, not will power. She has the will power of a young child.When did she have contact with an Outsider?
She brought Mordite to the dual with Ortega.
And I thought it was said that the Archive has the life and memories of all the past Archives. Wouldn't that give her immense amounts of willpower?
I know I am missing like a third of them as this discussion is too much fun and I barely have time to keep up with you.
I had forgotten how much fun I had doing this. I'm glad I decided to come back :)
Actually we only have Harry's perspective that they do. There is some ancillary evidence that they don't. Notably the fact that Harry still breathes despite him being 'outsider bane' and HWWB having had a free shot at a young Harry.
At that point in time, Justin was trying to get Harry to become a killer. HWWB was training Harry to become a scary magical power, and he succeeded. HWWB could have thought that he had Harry on his side at that point, or he may still think he can get Harry.
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I don't think I'm understanding what your saying at the end there. But why would Nemesis be able to have blocked Maggie's death curse? It targeted his Hunger, not him.
Because targeting his hunger would eventually kill him.
She brought Mordite to the dual with Ortega.
And I thought it was said that the Archive has the life and memories of all the past Archives. Wouldn't that give her immense amounts of willpower?
The mordite is a good point, but the whole reason she was targeted in SmF was that she still had the resistance of a child to outside influences, if I recall correctly (which I might be off)
I had forgotten how much fun I had doing this. I'm glad I decided to come back :)
Same here :)
At that point in time, Justin was trying to get Harry to become a killer. HWWB was training Harry to become a scary magical power, and he succeeded. HWWB could have thought that he had Harry on his side at that point, or he may still think he can get Harry.
I just think it hints that the Outsiders are as fractious as Reality is, only from either perspective you see a slim portion of it (The front lines so to speak). So while the Outsiders need only target a handful of true blocks on them (Winter, Warden, Gatekeep), they instead muck around with other things (ThirdEye, et cetera); and just like during the Cold War we presume our opponent is of single mind and conviction, when they aren't.
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Because targeting his hunger would eventually kill him.
I can't think of what to say to the rest of your stuff, and don't have the time now. But isn't that exactly what Maggie's curse did? Make it so he couldn't feed his Hunger?
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This kinda brings up the question to me. Could Maeve not have known who was infected outside her sphere of influence (I.E. since she was not a sock puppet and thus wasn't omnicient on the Nemesis' plans) and thus was excited about a vector to Lara while being ignorant of her status? Thomas sure did make a big deal about Lara's actions changing lately. In an Ambitious nature. Which equates to two huge red flags to me.
I may have to go and re-read that section, but my impression is that Thomas is simply commenting on Lara's power-grab ever since the events of White Night. I believe there's a WoJ about how Maggie's death curse shut down White Court expansionist policy for two decades, with a closing statement of "It's only after the events of WN that... but I think I gave away too much".
Normally, i'd summon Serack for the exact quote, but since I'm replying to you....
Anyway, I see it more as the White Court bouncing back to "normal" rather than external corruption. That battlecruiser in Changes is a scary example of the potential Lara has.
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I may have to go and re-read that section, but my impression is that Thomas is simply commenting on Lara's power-grab ever since the events of White Night. I believe there's a WoJ about how Maggie's death curse shut down White Court expansionist policy for two decades, with a closing statement of "It's only after the events of WN that... but I think I gave away too much".
Normally, i'd summon Serack for the exact quote, but since I'm replying to you....
Anyway, I see it more as the White Court bouncing back to "normal" rather than external corruption. That battlecruiser in Changes is a scary example of the potential Lara has.
Excellent point
They sometimes do. :) See what happened to all the vampires around Simon when they assaulted his compound immediately prior to the onstage events in Summer Knight.
However, while taking your killer down with you might be the most immediately gratifying thing to do with a death curse (assuming that they haven't up and prepared to defend against that kind of magical retaliation, which only a real moron *wouldn't* do if they knew they were off to murder a wizard), it might not be the SMARTEST thing you could do with it. Still, magic in the Dresden universe is only as formidable as a wizard's imagination can make it.
I mean, Maggie's death curse on Raith did /more/ than render him virtually powerless. It freaking crippled the entire White Court by rendering its head executive suddenly unwilling to get aggressive. It took that same executive's focus and warped it from an outwardly-oriented expansionist agenda (What, did you really think Raith just bumped into Maggie at a /bar/ somewhere?) to one of frantic power-defense, paranoia, and infighting. Had she merely killed Raith, another vampire much like him would simply have stepped into his shoes. Instead, her curse sandbagged the entire White Court for two or three /decades/.
It isn't until the events of White Night that the White Court really begins to . . .
. . .but perhaps I've said too much. ::)
Anyway, Maggie's curse, of course, also made Raith suffer. Horribly. It made him live in a constant state of drug-withdrawal-level hunger, and fear, and eventually reduced him to outright slavery to someone with centuries of comeuppance to dish out. But that was just icing on the cake.
Jim
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I don't think Lara is currently infected. Nemesis Maeve made a point of saying that it would be nice to have someone close to Lara. If Lara was infected, couldn't Lara infect Justine pretty much whenever she wanted to? Or infect someone else, someone human, and have that person infect Justine, to get around the whole protection thing.
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knnn did a great job of pointing out alternative explenations for my suspicions. I'm happy with her on the list again :)
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knnn did a great job of pointing out alternative explenations for my suspicions. I'm happy with her on the list again :)
As off topic as it may be, do you have any other important new WoJ that I have missed in my absence?
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The biggest set of questions I have right now revolve around Lucifer.
Lucifer's traditionally referred to as "the Adversary" and has a history of corrupting people by granting them free will, just like Nemesis. He's been consistently off-screen in the books so far, but he definitely exists.
So the big question is, then -- did the Adversary/Nemesis corrupt Lucifer, or is Lucifer "The Adversary"? It's an important question because it also speaks to the power of the White God over Outsiders -- are they truly Outside his Creation? Outside his Plan, or part of it? If "The Adversary" is Lucifer, then the Outsiders are, at least theoretically, part of God's Plan; if Lucifer, and the demonic evils he represents and leads, are a separate evil from the outsiders, then maybe the Outsiders aren't part of God's Plan, which is terrifying on a whole 'nother level.
In other words, is what happened to Molly part of God's Plan, or a corruption of it?
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The biggest set of questions I have right now revolve around Lucifer.
Lucifer's traditionally referred to as "the Adversary" and has a history of corrupting people by granting them free will, just like Nemesis. He's been consistently off-screen in the books so far, but he definitely exists.
So the big question is, then -- did the Adversary/Nemesis corrupt Lucifer, or is Lucifer "The Adversary"? It's an important question because it also speaks to the power of the White God over Outsiders -- are they truly Outside his Creation? Outside his Plan, or part of it? If "The Adversary" is Lucifer, then the Outsiders are, at least theoretically, part of God's Plan; if Lucifer, and the demonic evils he represents and leads, are a separate evil from the outsiders, then maybe the Outsiders aren't part of God's Plan, which is terrifying on a whole 'nother level.
In other words, is what happened to Molly part of God's Plan, or a corruption of it?
I don't think that we will ever find out if Nemesis is of TWG's creation or not, because I don't think we will ever truly see TWG or get a real scope for His power.
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I don't think that we will ever find out if Nemesis is of TWG's creation or not, because I don't think we will ever truly see TWG or get a real scope for His power.
We kinda have to, though. We're already on a collision course for an answer to this question, just with the Denarians. Why was Nicodemus so surprised by the attack on Arctis Tor? Was he surprised because it meant his other Denarians were "infected" (i.e., Denarians can be evil without being infected, i.e., not all fallen angels are infected, i.e., Lucifer != Nemesis), or just because it meant Lucifer was running a plot he didn't know about? Lucifer would certainly have the metaphysical oomph to mount an attack on Arctis Tor!
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We kinda have to, though. We're already on a collision course for an answer to this question, just with the Denarians. Why was Nicodemus so surprised by the attack on Arctis Tor? Was he surprised because it meant his other Denarians were "infected" (i.e., Denarians can be evil without being infected, i.e., not all fallen angels are infected, i.e., Lucifer != Nemesis), or just because it meant Lucifer was running a plot he didn't know about? Lucifer would certainly have the metaphysical oomph to mount an attack on Arctis Tor!
I'm sure we will see Lucifer. But he is allowed to cheat and directly act. TWG is not.
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As off topic as it may be, do you have any other important new WoJ that I have missed in my absence?
Since feb or aug? (I checked for breaks in postings, and those are what I found) Since August check the sticky I made about Cold Days interviews...
Oh, check out this one on Ivy and the Oblivion war (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34801.msg1663694.html#msg1663694), that one is pretty big
Other than that, when I update the link list in the WoJ section I make an update post so you can check there for general time frames for new WoJ sources.
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We kinda have to, though. We're already on a collision course for an answer to this question, just with the Denarians. Why was Nicodemus so surprised by the attack on Arctis Tor? Was he surprised because it meant his other Denarians were "infected" (i.e., Denarians can be evil without being infected, i.e., not all fallen angels are infected, i.e., Lucifer != Nemesis), or just because it meant Lucifer was running a plot he didn't know about? Lucifer would certainly have the metaphysical oomph to mount an attack on Arctis Tor!
Regarding the assault on AT, when Harry finally pours fire into the Well of Winter, Lea tells him that "all of us [Winter]" are coming to get him. If this includes those on the Outer Gates, then this could totally have been an opportunity for an Outsider incursion....
It goes against the WoJs I have lined up, but maybe that was the point of the assault in the first place?
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It goes against the WoJs I have lined up, but maybe that was the point of the assault in the first place?
Don't think so. But it may have been the reason Lily gave some summer fire...
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Why is everyone assuming that Nemesis would automatically ramp things up to 11 and do something so obvious to betray the fact that it infected a high-level being?
From what we've seen, Nemesis doesn't do that. It's going to sit in the host and slowly move pieces into place so that a major event happens with little or no room or time (or both) to stop it from happening. It took Lea a long time between Grave Peril and her coup attempt before Proven Guilty.
And if Nemesis is an aspect of TWG at work, the entire Christian pantheon is probably subject to being infected. I don't think you can discount any of them, because Nemesis seems to have two goals: To turn the host's nature against itself and, in turn for that, to grant abilities or information the infected entity would not otherwise have had access to.
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Don't think so. But it may have been the reason Lily gave some summer fire...
Remember that it was Maeve who slowed time in Winter, ostensibly to allow Summer time to orchestrate a smack-down on the Rampires. If Maeve was already infected by then, then perhaps this also served to keep the Outer Gates undefended a while longer?
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Remember that it was Maeve who slowed time in Winter, ostensibly to allow Summer time to orchestrate a smack-down on the Rampires. If Maeve was already infected by then, then perhaps this also served to keep the Outer Gates undefended a while longer?
It was likely also to make sure the Red Court got infected, and at the highest level possible.
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We don't really have any way of knowing who is and isn't infected. But who's been left alone with Nemesis and provided ample oppritunity for infection? All you can really do is ask yourself who has been captured and then needed be rescued.
so uhhhh perhaps elaine, molly, murphey, thomas, ivy, marcone, mortimer, georgia, andi, justine, mac, sarissa...
oh yeah, Christos made a point of locking up nearly all the younger wardens plus anna during changes.
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I can't think of what to say to the rest of your stuff, and don't have the time now. But isn't that exactly what Maggie's curse did? Make it so he couldn't feed his Hunger?
Yes, which is part of why I don't think that the White King is infected, working with the outsiders sure.
Of course the trippy part comes if we start assuming the outsiders aren't unified but instead have a coinciding goal, and there are multiple diseases.
I mean lets presume for a moment that the Walkers have a He Who Walks Within or In-between, infection and then They That Oppose do as well, then just the mere fact that Vitto exists doesn't preclude the white court from having been infected.
Hell perhaps the vampire courts as a whole are nothing more than ancient disease vectors from Outside who have slowly been worming cracks open in the Outer Gates.
For the Lucifier side: I don't think Lucifier would stand at the unmaking of reality. He isn't opposed to Life parsay, he is opposed to WG and the way He operates. I think we will see the Denarians at the least becoming Almost allies. Or at least 'least concern' by the end of the next book.
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Yes, which is part of why I don't think that the White King is infected, working with the outsiders sure.
Of course the trippy part comes if we start assuming the outsiders aren't unified but instead have a coinciding goal, and there are multiple diseases.
I mean lets presume for a moment that the Walkers have a He Who Walks Within or In-between, infection and then They That Oppose do as well, then just the mere fact that Vitto exists doesn't preclude the white court from having been infected.
Hell perhaps the vampire courts as a whole are nothing more than ancient disease vectors from Outside who have slowly been worming cracks open in the Outer Gates.
For the Lucifier side: I don't think Lucifier would stand at the unmaking of reality. He isn't opposed to Life parsay, he is opposed to WG and the way He operates. I think we will see the Denarians at the least becoming Almost allies. Or at least 'least concern' by the end of the next book.
I am really not understanding your logic on why the WK isn't infected
And thanks Serack
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I am really not understanding your logic on why the WK isn't infected
From what it looks like, he feels that being infected with Nemesis would somehow undo Maggie's Death Curse. Like maybe being infected with an Outsider would make him not just protected externally by Outside magic, but also internally.
I wholly disagree with that, if it is indeed the case.
It's really a toss up, but it hardly matters since we know he was in cahoots with Outsiders somehow. One thing is fairly certain to me though, if the WK was infected, so is Lara (assuming doing the WCV thing to her pop would infect her), and thus Thomas might also be infected.
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Really, we have few solid facts as to what the infection even is, how it spreads, if there is an "incubation" period -there are a lot of questions. Is there some kind of over-mind to it? Kind of a Borg thing?
I think how it manifests varies from person to person. Cat Sith seemed like he was a different being, note how he moved as if not fully accustomed to his body; Compare that to Maeve who seemed much herself, and preoccupied with her own emotional stuff right to the end, rather than achieving Nemesis' goal. Maybe the difference has to do with their metaphysical mass, who knows?
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Really, we have few solid facts as to what the infection even is, how it spreads, if there is an "incubation" period -there are a lot of questions. Is there some kind of over-mind to it? Kind of a Borg thing?
I think how it manifests varies from person to person. Cat Sith seemed like he was a different being, note how he moved as if not fully accustomed to his body; Compare that to Maeve who seemed much herself, and preoccupied with her own emotional stuff right to the end, rather than achieving Nemesis' goal. Maybe the difference has to do with their metaphysical mass, who knows?
I think that the difference between how it manifested in Cat Sith and Maeve is that in Cat Sith's case, Nemesis basically went, "Fuck it, he's been outed as being infected, and now he's trying to resist me. There's no point allowing him to retain autonomy anymore. ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL."
For that matter, Nemesis infection seems quite similar to Indoctrination from the Mass Effect games. Anyone know if Jim's ever played them?
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I think that the difference between how it manifested in Cat Sith and Maeve is that in Cat Sith's case, Nemesis basically went, "Fuck it, he's been outed as being infected, and now he's trying to resist me. There's no point allowing him to retain autonomy anymore. ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL."
For that matter, Nemesis infection seems quite similar to Indoctrination from the Mass Effect games. Anyone know if Jim's ever played them?
I think that's about as good as anything.
That said, If we see Cat Sith again and healed of his ailment, he owes Harry a Coke.