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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Cenphx on November 28, 2012, 06:31:58 PM

Title: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on November 28, 2012, 06:31:58 PM
So given the information we got in Cold Days, I wanted to revisit my theory about the parasite being an Outsider placed in Harry by He Who Walks Behind during their initial encounter when Harry was 16 and test whether it still works. Here is the original thread:

The following link died (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32084.msg1395852.html#msg1395852), here is the content that used to be in the OP. -Elegast

Quote from:  Cenphx
Hello, this is my first post of a question and I decided to pull out the craziest possibility that’s been kicking around my head.

I won’t bury the lede: I think there is a real possibility that the parasite is He Who Walks Behind.

Begin when Harry is recounting/reliving/remembering his encounter with HWWB to Lea (starts at about page 277 of Ghost Story (hardback edition)). Harry receives some injury to his back/neck/spine BEFORE he is struck for the first time by HWWB (p.281):

The confrontation continues and Stan is killed. Then we have these sections:

I had always read the above section to be that a rage larger than Harry had ever felt before  awakening a larger possibility within him for magic. But, what if that is not all that was coming online? What if a daughter organism from HWWB was also unfurling?

What if HWWB was not seeing the great wizard in Harry but signs of the parasite it planted? One question I have always had was after Harry struck back at HWWB, the outsider says:

What did HWWB expect? Harry to want to hold hands? OF COURSE, Harry would strike back, right? Maybe ineffectually, maybe with a lot of fear, but c’mon. Sooo…Maybe HWWB was not talking to Harry at all, but its own daughter organism. 

When Demonreach tells Harry about the parasite, it says that Mab provided breath, the island provided nourishment and the parasite “kept the blood flowing.” Guess which part of your brain controls vital functions like blood pressure, temperature and blood circulation? That’s right---the brain stem. It is the lowest part of the brain and connects to the spinal cord. Maybe where Harry felt the “fire erupt”? I know Lash makes a lot of sense as the parasite (how many times did she say “my host”?) but maybe we should consider a much more literal, physiological parasite rather than a purely spiritual one.

The theory leads to some an interesting speculation. What if Harry’s parasite is making him much more willing to confront the big bads? It’s a scientific fact that some parasites alter the behavior of their host organism, making them do things not only which are not natural, but which are downright deadly for the host. The parasite T. gondii, when in mice, makes the mice not only not afraid of cats, but makes them seek the cats out. Bad for the mouse, but good for T. gondii, because the best host for it is the intestinal tract of the cat. (first time I ever heard of this was in a book series by Daniel Abramson writing as M.L.N. Hanover—the Black Sun’s Daughter.)

All this leads to what does HWWB get out of infecting Harry? Here is complete, rank, speculation: what if “the door” the outsider’s are going to come through is not a physical, magical one. What if Harry is the door?


Shorter: HWWB was not trying to kill Harry but instead infected him with a parasite during the fight. Ever since, Harry has been fighting its dark influence. Previously I posited that the parasite was HWWB himself (I’m modifying that slightly now-see below. But still an outside and still a walker) Finally, Harry, through this parasite, will be the door the Outsider uses to get into our world.

Since some people won’t read all this, let me make my favorite point now. Here’s the poetic part of this theory, to me:  Harry’s greatest fear is becoming a monster. We see this in his fears about what the Winter Knight mantle is doing to him and whether he will be able to resist it. Throughout the series, we often are made to consider what it means to be monster (Thomas, Marcone), and think about actions and choices that lead that way, as well as having “monsterhood” thrust upon you involuntarily (Susan, Lily (depending on how one defines monster—for instance, if the Winter Lady mantle could turn Molly into a soulless psycho sex monster Maeve, is that monsterhood? Did the Summer Lady mantle change Lily?) ANYHOW, the point I am getting at is that through all these books of angst about monsterhood, Harry had a monster in his head the whole time. We, from the very first moment we met him, have experienced Harry-as-possible-monster. His greatest fear was something he was already experiencing, dealing with, learning to live with. The character we all like or love or respect or all three, has had the worst bad guy right in his head the whole time.

Questions/points from information we got in CD:

Why would Mab or Demonreach, having knowledge of the parasite, allow Harry to live/give him such important powers/duties considering Mab was willing to kill her own daughter who was infected?

Harry, unlike Maeve or Lea, has been infected for 30ish (how old is he?) years and has not went darkside, the parasite does not seem to be controlling him, he is managing the infection.

Moreover, we have heard multiple times that Harry is a/the fulcrum for the events leading to the BAT and/or the BAT itself. A fulcrum is the thing upon which everything else balances and turns. As such, he may be too important to kill. But I think this is less the reason than my next reason for why Mab/Demonreach would not kill him. Beyond the strict definition of a fulcrum, in literary contexts or movies, I always think of the fulcrum character not just defined by the way the struggle between good and evil turns on the character, but also the way the character, internally, is teetering between good and evil. (My personal reference for this is Darth Vader—all through the early stories he could go either way, then he goes way dark, which puts him at the critical moment with the choice between good and evil, kill his mentor, the emperor, or his son. He is the fulcrum, to me.) If you accept this concept of what it means to be a fulcrum, then by definition, the fact that Harry has potential for great evil within him would be accepted as part of the nature of who and what he is. Since he also has the potential for great good, killing him would be counterproductive. Plus, would another person then become the fulcrum? One who Mab/Demonreach would be less able to push the direction they wanted or needed? You know that saying, keep your friends close but your enemies closer? Well, by keeping Harry at hand and monitored, Mab has her enemy and her friend close. But mostly, I think you just have to accept that fulcrum characters are dangerous, otherwise they wouldn’t be important, you just have to hope and plan for them tipping your way at the right time.

Also, if Harry’s parasite is the third walker, as I suggest below, then killing him and it, would just free the walker to be placed into someone else who might not be able to control it like Harry is. As it stands, Harry’s head is its prison. Just another way in which Harry is THE WARDEN.

Why does the parasite in Harry seem different than the Nemesis infections in other people, like Lea or Maeve?

Some parasites actually infect multiple people/organisms, but are still part of a collective, like a hive. Perhaps Harry is infected with the most important parasite, like a queen bee. It was this idea that made me think that maybe the parasite in Harry is He Who Walks Within (HWWW), the third walker, which I just made up. It would explain why He Who Walks Before (HWWBf ?? versus HWWBh?? I need better abbreviations) seemed to want to take custody of Harry and/or talk to him at Mac’s bar; it didn’t seem like he was trying to kill him. The walkers are trying to recruit him.

What about the fact that Harry’s headaches only started relatively recently, potentially around the time Lash was obliterated-doesn’t  that make Lash more likely to be the parasite?

I think there are some compelling arguments to be made that Lash is the parasite (not the least of which is the time Jim answered a question that Lash was the parasite, plus I have no idea who Lash was in GS if she was not the parasite).  I am not great on the timeline of exactly when Lash died versus when the headaches began, but from what I remember reading here, the two seem to match up nicely.
That being said, in support of the parasite being HWWW, parasites can be dormant for long periods of time, years and years. The biology of parasites is pretty remarkable. The can “wake up” or even if already awake, they can accelerate their behavior or change it. So HWWW could be trying to take control of Harry in preparation for ….whatever the Outsiders’ plan is. I find it completely plausible that only now the parasite is causing serious physical problems for Harry.

Why does Rashid not notice that Harry is infected since he has the ability to see Outsider infection?

Who said he hasn’t? Could be why he has been watching him so very closely, but not killing him for the same reasons as Mab and Demonreach.

But Harry is Outsiderbane. Wouldn’t that mean he/his body would repel an outsider?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what “Outsiderbane” means. Maybe the term means the one who bring the downfall of the Outsiders or kills them. On the flip, say Harry does have some natural bad reaction to Outsiders, maybe that is why he is having the headaches now. Maybe like a build-up of inflammation or an allergic reaction, maybe now Harry’s body is finally manifesting outsider problems.

What about how DR said the parasite was going to burst forth from his head and he should ask Molly to help?

I don’t know whether to take DR literally about the bursting forth or figuratively, like emerge from stasis and take over. But if DR meant it literally, like the equivalent of an alien bursting out of someone’s chest, why the heck would Molly be the go-to person for such a physical problem? Wouldn’t Butters or a neurologist who operates on tumors be a better candidate? Why Molly? Maybe because Molly, with her powerful ability to understand the inside of someone else’s mind, would be able to tell Harry that he has been living with and controlling the parasite for 30 years, he just did not know it, so he just needs to chill out and remember he is in control, not the parasite.

Speaking of which , why is Harry’s parasite “bursting out” when Lea’s was able to be killed through popsicling?
 
Age of the infection. Older parasites are harder to remove, more fully integrated into their host.



What do you all think?
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Elegast on November 28, 2012, 06:46:24 PM
What do you all think?

That you're awesome.  ;D

The biggest problem is Lash: we have a WOJ saying Lash was in GS. Who can it be except the parasite?
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on November 28, 2012, 07:02:15 PM
I have never been able to come up with a satisfactory answer for where Lash was in GS. Anywhere you put her creates other problems.

Like if she was Inez in the cemetary, and I think some of the language Inez used fits a fallen angel kinda nicely, but then, who was Mab's proxy? Since there is a WoJ I believe, that DR and Mab each had a proxy there. 

If Lash was the whisperer at the church, then where was Lasciel in the book? Plus, the Whisperer seems more evil and out to get Harry, and I don't peg Lash as that antagonistic.

I suppose Lash could appear as to Harry as another person, like she did in DB as Sheila.  I haven't reread GS looking for a character with whom only Harry interacts while he is alone.  But this feels like a stretch to me.

So I'm stuck.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: J_M on November 28, 2012, 08:55:11 PM
That you're awesome.  ;D

The biggest problem is Lash: we have a WOJ saying Lash was in GS. Who can it be except the parasite?

Why can't it be both? 
Quote from: Location 3114(ish), Ch. 17
Demonreach growled.  In all capital letters.
And the headache vanished.
One second, my scalp was tightening up as two separate ice picks dug into my skull in the same places they always did, and the next the pain was utterly gone.

So, just to play devil's advocate, here's the theory.  HWWW did indeed infect Dresden at some point in the past, but has always lain low.  Similarly to Lash, it could have made itself known to some portion of Harry's subconscious (or not), but it's smart.  Harry's important for some reason, and the last thing it wants is to be discovered.  Lash commits quasi-harry-karry (misspelled on purpose), leaving room in his mind for the Nemesis to take further root.  Previous headaches were initially caused by Lash doing...whatever, but the Nemesis sees an opportunity to inflict pain scot-free, and makes its own head-spike thing, and is smart enough to stop every time Lash does.  It's not perfect, but I could see how it might work.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: aShorty21 on November 28, 2012, 09:04:28 PM
Why can't it be both? 
Perhaps the headaches are from Lash and HWWW fighting? Lash to protect, HWWW to control.

Of course that means that Lash is still the parasite, but Harry has a walker inside himself. Harry could of also been infected by Nemisis in the deeps when he was under mind wammy attack. HWWB didn't try to put the mind wammy on him. That would lend credence to headaches starting after Lash "died" (since that would also be when he got infected).
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Elegast on November 30, 2012, 05:26:49 PM

Shorter: HWWB was not trying to kill Harry but instead infected him with a parasite during the fight. Ever since, Harry has been fighting its dark influence. Previously I posited that the parasite was HWWB himself (I’m modifying that slightly now-see below. But still an outside and still a walker) Finally, Harry, through this parasite, will be the door the Outsider uses to get into our world.

What do you all think?

I've been thinking a bit about your threads, and I'm convinced that He-Who-Walks-Within, a parasite Walker, is a real possibility.

However, due to the various WOJ, it cannot be the parasite. So I would say that Harry is NOT infected with HWWW.

But we have still two other suspects: Vittorio Malvora and maybe Lord Raith.

Quote from: White Night
Lasciel squared her shoulders and straightened. "You're right," she said. "It is my choice. Listen to me." She leaned closer, her eyes intent. "Vittorio has been given power. That is how he can do this. He is possessed."
I wished I could have raised my eyebrows. Possessed by what?
"An Outsider," Lasciel said. "I have felt such a presence before. This attack is drawn directly from the mind of the Outsider."

Lord Raith is also a likely suspect: he had an insanely powerful psychic attack, and he had dealings with the Walkers (Blood Rites). So maybe he summoned HWWW in his body, and in exchange his powers were boosted and he was protected from magic.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on November 30, 2012, 05:46:50 PM
I think Harry having an outsider inside him does so many cool things for the story, its hard for me to get past it. But setting it aside, Lord Raith as having HWWW in him seems a distinct possibility. Somone else recently suggested that in his fight with Lara, since we didnt see it, its possible he infected her and the puppet show has been an elaborate, *ingenious*, ruse. And any version of that infection tree you were working on has Lord Raith at or close to the beginning. I like him for having HWWW inside him more than Vitto.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Blackblade on November 30, 2012, 05:47:07 PM
He Who Walks Within is actually the entity previously mistaken as Harry's subconscious.  It took root there after Harry's first encounter with HWWB, and has been running a long con to eventually subvert him.  When Lash first showed up, HWWW was happy to see her, since she would serve as another method of breaking down Harry's will.  After her apparent death in WN, a small remnant of her lingered around and began to slowly heal. 

At this point, HWWW decided that the reformed, self-sacrificing Lash would not help his cause any further, so he began trying to suppress/destroy her while she was down; this is what caused the headaches.  It could also explain why Harry hasn't talked with him in so long; he's been busy. 
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: craigallen on November 30, 2012, 05:52:40 PM
Some thoughts on the Lash being the parasite theory.

Lash was a piece of Lasciel, not Lasciel itself, in much the same way a branch cut from a tree is not the tree, but only part of it. We extend this metaphor to a cutting of grape roots that were taken to France when a plague of aphids hit many of France's vineyards nearly decimating their wine industry. If not for the rootstock of American grape varieties grafted to the french vines it would have been very bad. Now the American grape roots and the French grape vines are growing together to form something new. neither wholly one or the other original. So then, Lash is "grafted" onto Harry and Harry changes her to the point that she rebels against her Lasciel induced instincts and saves Harry's life, thereby "taking a bullet" for Harry as Michael points out later. Is Lash dead? Apparently not if JB says she showed up slightly changed in GS.

My thoughts are that Lash if JB says Lash is around then she is not in Harry anymore. Harry allowed her to become her own entity (perhaps this is how baby mantles are born) and now she is free, both of Harry's head (a pretty scary place to be I'm sure) and Lasciel's influence. She has, in essence, tasted of the fruit of the tree of Good and Evil.

As to the parasite itself, if could be the contagion of the Nemesis (as Blackblade intimates). If true, that puts a slightly different spin on DR saying it would "explode out of" Harry's head. This could be not so much in the Alien-out-of-the-doomed-astronaut's-stomach kind of explosion, but more like what happened to Cat Sith when the contagion (parasite?) completely took over on the barge. It "exploded" out of Sith's head, as it were, completely subsuming Sith (I so hope Sith is not dead and that the contagion can be gotten out, hopefully by Harry thereby making the Malk indebted to him for its life and wouldn't that be just grand... and I wonder how Mister and Sith will get along). And if Molly holds the key to getting the parasite out, I'm sure her abilities to do so will now be enhanced considerably by her now being the Winter Lady. But methinks the clock is ticking for Harry and his Harrisite.

ca
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Phobos on November 30, 2012, 06:04:53 PM
I've got a theory about the Walker's place in the Outsiders.
In Cold Days I think Mac was telling Harry that there were 3 Walkers (or rather implied it) with the beer bottle thing. We didn't find out that Sharkface was a Walker (He Who Walks Before) until the later chapters of CD. With that knowledge there appears to be a naming convention implied (He Who Walks Before, He Who Walks Behind), which leads me to believe the third one is named something like "He Who Walks Beside".

My theory is that the 3 Walkers are leaders focusing on a different strategy for the Outsiders infiltration. Their the Black Ops guys.

HWWBefore- Is the direct, in your face operator. (Attacking Harry at Mac's, Attacking DR. I wouldn't be surpirsed if he was the one leading the Outsider attack on the WC in Proven Guilty)
HWWBeside- Is the one operating in plain sight, right next to you without you even realizing it, but still working in the open to some extent. (This is one of my candidates for Nemesis, if it is in fact a Walker as opposed to something different)
HWWBehind- Is the one working covertly, working through intermediaries, and building subtle support and influence for the Outsider agenda (Lord Raith, Justin Dumorne, Victor Sells, etc.). (Also one of my suspects for Nemesis, barring the previous situation)

Of course I think roles I have pegged for HWWBeside and HWWBehind could easily be switched.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: JDK002 on November 30, 2012, 06:58:37 PM
I like the idea of an Outsider and Lash warring inside Harrys head.  Though there's a bit of an inconsistency in that idea.  It would mean Lash would have to be ignorant of the Outsider for the several years he was in Harrys head; which I just don't buy.  She would of known about another entity in his head the second Harry touched the coin.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on November 30, 2012, 07:03:25 PM
She does tell Harry she's felt an outsider influence like Vitto's before....so maybe she did notice the other thing rolling around in Harry's head. That begs the question of why she didnt say so-so long as Harry was in no immediate danger, I think she would hold onto the info until she could use it to her benefit.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Haru on November 30, 2012, 07:11:22 PM
Didn't Lash say something along the lines of "you are touched by more darkness, than my own"? Wouldn't that fit a nemesis infection rather neatly?
Or another idea: Lash was not killed, she was just badly injured. Really bad. Now all the time with Harry has made her an individual entity, separate from Lasciel. So there we are, in the deeps, everything about to be blown to pieces. The outsiders/nemesis in the room would certainly know that as well, so they try to escape. They probably realize, that they don't have a chance to invade Harry, outsiderbane and strong-willed and all that. But he is totting around an unconscious being, too week to defend itself against an invasion.
So instead of the parasite being nemesis or Lash, it is nemesis-Lash.

Which would also give the "bursting out" a new interpretation. If Lash really is a separate entity, not only from Lasciel, but also from Harry, then nemesis might give her enough power to form a body and break out of Harry's noggin.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on November 30, 2012, 07:46:54 PM
Holy crap. That made me think about the people who tell Harry he has darkness or a stain or whatever on him. I doublechecked what the ThreeEye junkie said to Harry at the police station in SF: '...I see you wizard! I see the things that follow, those who walk before and He Who Walks Behind! They come, they come for you!' So the junkie saw BOTH walkers just by looking at Harry???
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on November 30, 2012, 07:51:19 PM
Ill start a new thread on the 3 Eye junkie thing-its a tangent....
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Serack on November 30, 2012, 08:29:06 PM
I have to read your entire post, but I want to point out that in one of the book signing Q&A's one of the guys asked about the headaches and said that they had been happening throught the books.  Jim deliberately corrected him and said they started after a specific point.

The specific point is important.

So If the headaches are due to the parasite, and the parasite is from Harry's encounter with HHWB, then something later must have trigered it's... rambunciousness.

Or there is another explenation that doesn't involve the HHWB encounter.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Haru on November 30, 2012, 08:30:47 PM
Holy crap. That made me think about the people who tell Harry he has darkness or a stain or whatever on him. I doublechecked what the ThreeEye junkie said to Harry at the police station in SF: '...I see you wizard! I see the things that follow, those who walk before and He Who Walks Behind! They come, they come for you!' So the junkie saw BOTH walkers just by looking at Harry???
That's a sobering thought. And if Jim put it up in the first book, that is simply amazing.

Though it opens up another question: If the 3Eye junkie saw it, wouldn't other wizards who examined him have seen it as well? Or for that matter, anyone who soulgazed him. Maybe there was a special ingredient in 3Eye, that not only opens the sight but also makes you more aware of outsider presences. Would come in handy in the war, even if it is a double edged blade.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on November 30, 2012, 10:06:24 PM
Serack--yeah, both this OP and the earlier one are long winded, sorry! I did theorize a bit about the timing of the headaches coinciding with Lash tighter, logically speaking, than with HWWB, but gave some possibilties for why the headaches started recently. The best of my stuff is the idea that the walker is ramping up because the outsider's plan is hitting critical mass and HWWW is fighting for control. I like the ideas by some of the other posters about potentially Lash and HWWW fighting.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Blackblade on November 30, 2012, 10:11:59 PM
The specific point is important.

So If the headaches are due to the parasite, and the parasite is from Harry's encounter with HHWB, then something later must have trigered it's... rambunciousness.

Or there is another explenation that doesn't involve the HHWB encounter.

In White Night, Harry gets some major recurring headaches after Cowl sends him a mental whammy via Little Chicago.  He doesn't seem to have any particular headaches after Lash's death.  He doesn't have any headaches in Small Favor, but Turn Coat opens with one. 

Maybe Cowl gave him Nemesis via LC, and the headaches are due to that.  Alternatively, maybe the Headaches in TC (and Butters mentions they've been happening for a while) were due to Uriel restoring that part of his brain that contained Lash as his "second intervention."
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on November 30, 2012, 10:18:10 PM
Haru-interesting stuff about the possible effects of ThreeEye. But Sells made it and he was infected with Nemesis, right? Why would the outsiders want people to be able to have wizard's sight and/or be able to see outsiders better??   Everything leads to more questions!
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Elegast on November 30, 2012, 10:23:17 PM
Is there somewhere a list with all the quotes about Harry's migraines?

If no could you help me found them: - I know there are two in TC, one in CD , and some SmF.

Here are some, plz give all the one you have:
Quote from: WN
rubbed my finger at a spot between my eyebrows where a headache was coming on.
Quote from: TC
He started cleaning up everything he’d set out during the improvised surgery. “So. How are the headaches?”
They’d been a problem, the past several months—increasingly painful migraines. “Fine,” I told him.
“Yeah, right,” Butters said. “I really wish you’d try the MRI again.”
Technology and wizards don’t coexist well, and magnetic resonance imagers are right up there. “One baptism in fire-extinguishing foam per year is my limit,” I said.
“It could be something serious,” Butters said. “Anything happens in your head or neck, you don’t take chances. There’s way too much going on there.”
“They’re lightening up,” I lied.
“Hogwash,” Butters said, giving me a gimlet stare. “You’ve got a headache now, don’t you?”
I looked from Butters to Morgan’s recumbent form. “Yeah,” I said. “I sure as hell got one now.”
Quote from: SmF
Pain stabbed me in the head, ice picks plunging into both temples. I flinched and doubled over. Blasting rod. Familiar words. I fought to summon an image of what went with the words, but I couldn’t find anything. I knew I had a memory associated with those words, but try as I might, I couldn’t drag it out. It was like a shape covered by some heavy tarp. I knew an object was beneath, but I couldn’t get to it.
Quote from: SmF
On the opposite side of Ivy, Rosanna launched more traditional lances of flame from her open palms, much like the ones I
—a savage pain went through my skull for a second—son of a bitch—
—but Ivy dispersed them with delicately applied wedges of air,
Quote from: TC
Mouse pawed at my leg and looked up at me. I bent over to scratch his ears, and instantly regretted it as someone tightened a vise on my temples. I straightened up again in a hurry, wincing, and entertained wild fantasies about lying down on the floor and sleeping for a week.
Quote from: CD
Demonreach growled.  In all capital letters.
And the headache vanished.
One second, my scalp was tightening up as two separate ice picks dug into my skull in the same places they always did, and the next the pain was utterly gone.
Quote from: Changes
Hell’s bells. Like I didn’t have enough on my mind. I rubbed my thumb against the spot between my eyebrows where the headache was forming. “I did not need this on top of everything else. Which is why she did it.”
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Haru on November 30, 2012, 10:27:36 PM
Was he infected? We know (?) that he got his mojo from someone in the black council, so he might have gotten the recipe for 3Eye as well. I know that people are assuming that the black council are the bad guys, but what if they are just a "the ends justify the means" sort of club? If they know what is going on and try to work against it, they are going to be all kinds of paranoid about it. If they think that everything is already lost, they might as well ignore collateral damage and just focus on gathering enough power to have a chance of standing up against the outsiders.

You could see Cowl like that, for example. At least DB Cowl. Sure, thousands of people dying is pretty bad, but it sure would have been nice to have a demigod in the trenches. On the other hand, weakening Cowl like that might have been what Nemesis needed to get inside and corrupt him, so while Harry might have saved a few thousand people that day, he might have done more harm than good in the long run.

Headaches:
I looked through TC and SmF, and there weren't really any interesting situations regarding headaches. There is in WN though:

(click to show/hide)

Which, to me, kind of sounds like the headache Harry gets in SmF, when his mind is wandering to his blasting rod and is abruptly stopped by Mab's geas. The other headaches are, at least as far as I saw it, only due to him being exhausted or hit in the head. This one stood out, though.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Elegast on November 30, 2012, 10:55:09 PM
I've gathered all the quotes about headaches I remembered.

What's highly suspicious is that "ice picks" is used in CD and SmF. In SmF it's supposed to be Mab, in CD the parasite. Mab=Lash=Molly???? This doesn't make sense at all... :-\
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Elegast on November 30, 2012, 11:11:35 PM
There seems to be two sets of headaches: one with 'ice picks' in the temple, the other with pain between the two eyes.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Haru on November 30, 2012, 11:18:13 PM
You're right.

Maybe the ice pick headache in CD is Lash trying to find a way to communicate with Harry. She is giving him a sensation he has felt before (we know she is capable of it), and that she hopes he will associate with loss of memory, just like Mab did to him in SmF.

That is, if the whole Lash fighting Nemesis in Harry's head is correct.

The other headache might be Nemesis, or they might not have any significance at all, other than Harry being tired. Then again, given that there is a huge amount of time dedicated to the flashback to New Mexico, and here Harry is having a distracting headache, as soon as he starts to think about it, it seems too good to be a coincidence. Especially, since the ghouls returned in the deeps, so maybe something more happened in that cave with the ghouls, something that Harry is not allowed to remember.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Tarion on November 30, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
Is there somewhere a list with all the quotes about Harry's migraines?

If no could you help me found them: - I know there are two in TC, one in CD , and some SmF.

Here are some, plz give all the one you have:
The issue with picking out headaches is that a lot of them are justifiable.  Harry essentially makes a living getting beaten up by supernatural creatures.

Storm Front - He complains about a headache, but only after getting his skill pounded by a thug.
Quote
Maybe this had been another reminder from the mob boss. It had that kind of mafioso feel to it.
I staggered to my kitchenette and fixed myself a tisane tea for the headache, then added in some aspirin. Herbal remedies are well and good, but I don't like to take chances.
Fool Moon - He develops a headache while working on potions and researching Werewolves:
Quote
I tried to ignore the headache that was creeping up the back of my neck toward the crown of my head, but it did little good.
Grave Peril - He has a headache while hunting for Charity.  Maybe justifiable, in that he was stressed.  He'd also been drugged earlier (But that caused pleasure, not pain) and had a ghost chew out his magic.
Quote
Hell’s bells, all I had was a headache, an hourglass quickly running out of sand, and a case of the shakes.
Summer Knight - He develops a headache while researching the Queens
Quote
I felt the headache start at the base of my neck and creep toward the crown of my head. "Okay, Bob. I need to know about these Queens...

I stared at the skull for a second, while the headache settled comfortably in."

It came back while talking to Meryl
Quote
The headache started coming back. "Look, Meryl, I've got a lot on my plate already."
Death Masks - No mention of headaches!  Or at least, not specifically.  He did get hit in the head though:
Quote
Light exploded behind my eyes and I dropped to my hands and knees at the bottom of the stairway. Anna had slugged me with something. A second burst of light and pain drove my head far enough down to splash some cold water against my forehead....

I tried to lift her body, but the effort brought a surge of pain to my head and I almost threw up.
His head also hurt while being held by Nicodemus.
Quote
I came to my senses in complete darkness, under a stream of freezing water. My head hurt enough to make the wound on my leg feel pleasant by comparison.
Blood Rites - Harry gets hit in the head.  At this point, who's surprised?
Quote
Multiple injuries, including a vicious headache from where Inari had socked me.
Dead Beat - 3 guesses on what happens. 
Quote
I started to look around for the source of the noise.
And then someone hit me on the back of the head.
I remember that part, because I'd been through it before...

Then I stood up. My head pounded with a dull, throbbing beat of pain, and I bowed my head forward for a moment, letting cold rain fall onto the lump forming on the back of my skull. The worst of it passed after a minute, and I got the pain under control. I'd taken harder shots to the head than that one had been, and I didn't have time to coddle myself.
Proven Guilty - Harry has a headache.  He was in a car crash though
Quote
My headache started rising up again...

My headache flared up with a vengeance, and the light of my amulet and staff both faded.

He then complains of a headache after using his Sight
Quote
“It’ll pass. Just got this damned headache...

My headache finally began to fade away just as Murphy returned...

I spat a few times into the trash can and stood up. My headache started to return.
Then he gets hit in the head. 
Quote
I came to with a headache, and my stomach attempted to slither out of my mouth. Its escape attempt was blocked by some kind of gag. I had the taste of metal in my mouth, and my jaws were forced uncomfortably wide. The blindfold on my face was almost a mercy, given the headache.
White Night - What looks like another stress headache when Molly looks at the dead girl
Quote
I muttered under my breath, rubbed at the incipient headache beginning between my eyes, and thought dark thoughts.
Then Little Chicago takes a hit for him
Quote
And then there was a geyser of scarlet pain, as if someone had seized both halves of my skull and torn it into two pieces.
And another one
Quote
I leaned against a wall—unless maybe, since we were on a ship, it was a bulkhead—and rubbed my finger at a spot between my eyebrows where a headache was coming on.
Then he gets hit in the head, yet again, although it's healed by Elaine
Quote
My head hurt, even more than it had after Cowl had finished ringing my bells the night before, if such a thing was possible. I didn't want to regain consciousness, if it meant rising into that.
It pops up a little bit again
Quote
It had been a long night, and despite Elaine's incredible hands, my headache had begun to return
Small Favor - Harry gets kicked in the nose
Quote
I hunched my shoulders and rolled, only to be kicked in the nose by a cloven hoof, and an utterly gratuitous amount of pain came with a side order of whirling stars.
Then Mab freezes his eyes
Quote
Mab’s frozen-berry lips lifted in a silent snarl, and the world turned into a curtain of white agony that centered on my eyes. Nothing had ever hurt so much
And his head hurt some of the times he tried to remember his blasting rod/fire magic
Quote
—a savage pain went through my skull for a second—son of a bitch—...

“Where,” he said gently, “is your blasting rod?”
This time I heard the words.
Pain stabbed me in the head, ice picks plunging into both temples. I flinched and doubled over. Blasting rod. Familiar words. I fought to summon an image of what went with the words, but I couldn’t find anything. I knew I had a memory associated with those words, but try as I might, I couldn’t drag it out. It was like a shape covered by some heavy tarp. I knew an object was beneath, but I couldn’t get to it.
“I don’t…I don’t…” I started breathing faster. The pain got worse.
Someone had been in my head.

Turn Coat - the actual migraines start:
Quote
They’d been a problem, the past several months—increasingly painful migraines

The reason I've covered these books in particular is

a) You already got the later ones

and

b) I think it's worth remembering that Harry has always complained about his head hurting.  He develops headaches when he's stressed, and if he didn't have Wizard healing, his brains would have been pounded out of his ears by now.  He's also had some fairly unpleasant things done to his mind and face.  We need to bear that in mind when discussing headaches in the newer books.

I suspect the headaches developing in the spot between his eyes is his usual stress headache (, while the "twin points" headaches are the ones we're interested in.  Throbbing pain is when he's been beaten up.  However, at the beginning of the series, his headaches crept up the back of his skull.

Basically, my conclusion is that his headaches are all over the place, especially at the beginning of the series.  It sort of undermines the real "plot-relevant" headaches. 
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: madness on November 30, 2012, 11:57:07 PM
I wonder about the pain between his eyebrows and a possible correlation with the symbolic location of his third eye.

Coincidence?

Or perhaps a natural symptom of magic related mental problems?
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Serack on December 01, 2012, 12:02:15 AM
I added one for you elegast, I'll quote it here too.

Quote from: FM Ch. 8
I tried to ignore the head-ache that was creeping up the back of my neck toward the crown of my head, but it did little good.

Edit:  BTW, this one does not seem to conform to the trends of the other ones in that it is described as starting in his neck, but it's a headache reference, so I'm quoting it to be thorough.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on December 01, 2012, 12:09:18 AM
Wow...helluva list everyone. Before this thread, I really thought a point could be located when Harry's headaches started. But looking at this list, we would need to separate stress headaches vs trauma-induced vs possible lash-regeneration vs possible HWWW parasite activity vs memory tampering pain. Those are a lot of variables to nail down with any accuracy.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Orloth on December 01, 2012, 12:44:30 AM
I have never been able to come up with a satisfactory answer for where Lash was in GS. Anywhere you put her creates other problems.

Like if she was Inez in the cemetary, and I think some of the language Inez used fits a fallen angel kinda nicely, but then, who was Mab's proxy? Since there is a WoJ I believe, that DR and Mab each had a proxy there. 

If Lash was the whisperer at the church, then where was Lasciel in the book? Plus, the Whisperer seems more evil and out to get Harry, and I don't peg Lash as that antagonistic.

I suppose Lash could appear as to Harry as another person, like she did in DB as Sheila.  I haven't reread GS looking for a character with whom only Harry interacts while he is alone.  But this feels like a stretch to me.

So I'm stuck.

I've always interpreted Leah as being Mab's proxy in Ghost Story.  This leaves Inez free to be either Lasciel or Lash, and the bedside shade to be the other.  (though I am still in favor of the parasite being Lash, but I'm biased)

@ the headaches:  I think we need to home in on the point at which they were specifically pointed out as a recurring problem: Butter's comment in Turn Coat.  Before then, most of the headaches can be attributed to stress, trauma, or Geas.  Was there anything significant that happened between Small Favor and Turn Coat?  A short story? (I don't have Side Jobs nearby to check.) If not, it is certainly safer to assume it has something to do with Lash departing at the end of White Night (which give whatever problem; be it physical, magical, or parasite; time to develop into a full scale problem)(and has been pointed out, there was enough head pain going on in Small Favor that migraines could be easily missed in the Background Radiation).
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Haru on December 01, 2012, 04:37:00 PM
I just realized something regarding the headaches. If you look at the scene at the outer gates, when Harry meets Rashid. First of all, the whole "May I call you Harry?" business is extremely odd to me. There is a lot more significance to it, than appears at first, I think.

But there is another thing that stood out to me:
Rashid touches Harry with the tip of his staff at one point. Now granted, that doesn't seem like much, but if you compare it to other instances that Harry met Rashid, the gatekeeper never touched Harry. He even went out of his way not to. In SK, Harry describes in extreme detail, how Rashid's hands are covered in thick leather gloves, and he couldn't see an inch of skin. It kind of seems like something that you would do in the presence of someone who is infested with a highly contagious disease.
OR something you would do, if you were infected by a highly contagious disease, that you wouldn't want to spread.

Or something you might do, if you wanted to keep a wizard from sensing something inside you. Though I think that is less likely or part or the OR.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on December 01, 2012, 10:07:01 PM
Good connection, Haru. That exchange between Rashid and Harry was one of about 3 conversations in CD that felt like significant things were being said that didnt immediately fall into place for me. I like your idea. I need to reread that scene. There was a lot of stuff in this book about Harry's name/identity...
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Elegast on December 01, 2012, 11:28:36 PM
I just realized something regarding the headaches. If you look at the scene at the outer gates, when Harry meets Rashid. First of all, the whole "May I call you Harry?" business is extremely odd to me. There is a lot more significance to it, than appears at first, I think.

But there is another thing that stood out to me:
Rashid touches Harry with the tip of his staff at one point. Now granted, that doesn't seem like much, but if you compare it to other instances that Harry met Rashid, the gatekeeper never touched Harry. He even went out of his way not to. In SK, Harry describes in extreme detail, how Rashid's hands are covered in thick leather gloves, and he couldn't see an inch of skin. It kind of seems like something that you would do in the presence of someone who is infested with a highly contagious disease.
OR something you would do, if you were infected by a highly contagious disease, that you wouldn't want to spread.

Or something you might do, if you wanted to keep a wizard from sensing something inside you. Though I think that is less likely or part or the OR.

That's very true.

With insight, it's clear that the Gatekeeper suspected Harry to be infected. In TC, he nearly says so.

In CD, for some reason, he has become convinced that Harry is clean.

Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on December 01, 2012, 11:46:58 PM
So what happened between TC and CD that conclusively proved he did not have the infection or cured it? (since it cant just be Rashid getting a good enough look at Harry with his 'magic bug detecting eye' to determine whether he's infected-he could've done it earlier) 
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: THE_ANGRY_GAMER on December 01, 2012, 11:51:25 PM
I think it was probably the fact that the Mothers trusted him enough to bring him to the Outer Gates - had he been infected, Mama Winter would have killed him out-of-hand.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Elegast on December 01, 2012, 11:51:43 PM
So what happened between TC and CD that conclusively proved he did not have the infection or cured it?

No. Even Rashid can't know for certain. He just decided to trust Harry.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Cenphx on December 01, 2012, 11:56:22 PM
If thats true, I think I'm back to where I started-Rashid deciding to trust Harry could mea nothing more than through close observation, he decided that even if Harry was infected, he decided Harry was in control and making decisions.
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Haru on December 02, 2012, 12:58:25 AM
So what happened between TC and CD that conclusively proved he did not have the infection or cured it? (since it cant just be Rashid getting a good enough look at Harry with his 'magic bug detecting eye' to determine whether he's infected-he could've done it earlier) 
Well, Harry died and came back, for one thing. Rashid might have decided, that however he did it, the infection would have died out or left through that process. Maybe that's exactly what happened, and the gatekeeper scanned Harry twice, and now he is clean. Maybe Rashid needs the gate plus his eye in order to see if someone is infected. So so many questions.



Hmm, I actually wanted to say something about headaches that occurred in the scene with Rashid, but then I got sidetracked. Still, both things are probably important.

Here is what I originally wanted to say about headaches:
I am kind of convinced by now, that the headaches started in camp kaboom, and I think they are suppressed memories of the sight.

In WN, we have:

Quote
Oh, God.” She sighed, smiling. “Yes.”

    I muttered under my breath, rubbed at the incipient headache beginning between my eyes, and thought dark thoughts. Dammit all, every time I’d opened myself up to some kind of horrible psychic shock in the name of investigation, I’d gotten another nightmare added to my collection. Her first time up to bat, and the grasshopper got…

Quote
Something like New Mexico. Jesus. I didn’t want to think about that. I rubbed at the fresh headache sprouting between my eyebrows.

The first one is Harry thinking about the sight and the things he's seen with it in general, the second one is when he is starting to think about a specific thing that happens. Both times he gets sidetracked by the headache, and he drops the topic.

If you compare it with the scene in CD with Rashid:

Quote
"Experience," he said. "Decades of it. The Sight can help, but..." Rashid hesitated. I recognized it instantly, the hiccup in one's thoughts when one stumbled over a truly hideous memory gained with the Sight, like I'd had with--
Ugh.
--the naagloshii.

It seems kind of familiar. Thinking about something, and suddenly you are stopped in your tracks by the memory. So maybe the headache is to prevent Harry from remembering something. Maybe Lash put up a defense against those memories. Maybe Harry even asked her to, because it was too much for him to bear, whatever happened. I can't find it right now, but isn't the part where he is going to the cave to find the rest of the ghouls kind of a blur to him?
Title: Re: Crazy HWWB theory revisited [CD SPOILERS]
Post by: Radhil on December 02, 2012, 01:21:25 AM
No. Even Rashid can't know for certain. He just decided to trust Harry.

^ This.

He even said it, that the detection was more art than skill.  He can't know, at least not with anything logical.  He just chooses based on gut and instinct.

Also, I kinda doubt an Outsider ever made him laugh that much.