Well, assuming that the Blackstaff is hers, WoJ says that she wants it back, and that it was stolen.
Either the White Council tricked her into giving it up, which she regrets, or it is more useful to her in McCoy's hands. IMO, there's no way that she doesn't know who has it.
Well, assuming that the Blackstaff is hers, WoJ says that she wants it back, and that it was stolen.
Either the White Council tricked her into giving it up, which she regrets, or it is more useful to her in McCoy's hands. IMO, there's no way that she doesn't know who has it.
It's entirely possible that Mother Winter wants it back, but can't take it back because of the balance with Summer. Perhaps Summer had such an instrument (or something equally powerful but wonderfully different) and it was destroyed.
That being said, when Eb bites the big one (and he will before this is all over...I'm guessing), Harry will want to grab that blackstaff so he can serve up a rather potent bargaining chip for whatever purpose.
I've said it on this board earlier but... There is just no way that I see a being that has the knowledge of the Winter Queens (anything Mab/Titania know, Winter/Summer Mother do as well, and if one knows, both do) + Intellectus + The Power Level they have would in any way be unaware of exactly where that is (as long as it's in the Mortal or Fae realms), or how it got there.
Mother Winter LET (somehow) her walking staff be taken/stolen. Mother Summer clued Dresden in on this tidbit and I think it's going to come in useful later on.
Serack, isn't there a WoJ about the fact that the Blackstaff eating black magic being a side effect? Am I imagining that quote? (I may be mixing it up with some of the Athame=Mab Craziness vector theory posts (WoJ was that it was a vector for Power))
But I'm kind of suspicious. If Mother Winter lost something, she'd have had to gain something in another area. It's technically what the Sidhe are. So if she lost the Blackstaff... what did she gain?
A huge theme in this book was that the Sidhe are titanically powerful, and we're all here wondering if some wizard stole something from a being more wise and experienced than /Mab/, who, lets remember, was running the long con this whole book. I find it far more likely that (assuming it's Mother Winter's) the staff was taken through some trickery orchestrated by a full Queen or Mother Summer, most likely the latter because of Summer's role in limiting the power of Winter upon mortals. Probably had more to do with a fae, and probably involved a bumbling wizard who didn't really know much about what was going on. Probably he/she got one of those lovely "rock and a hard place" choices. Merlin?
And look at what happened when Harry tried it with Mother Winter. Woosh, giant skeletal claw hand dragged him into a black room with meat cleavers.
The Erlking may be on par with the Queens. The Mothers are a completely different story. Of the level above archangels (like Lucifer and Uriel).
but can't take it back because of the balance with Summer.
She [Mab] gestured, and the thorns parted. Maeve stood there in her white armor, and Mother Winter stood behind her, all shrouded in black cloth. Before them on the ground knelt Lloyd Slate, broken, obviously in pain, his hands manacled to a collar around his throat, the whole made of something that looked like cloudy ice.
Actually, that brings up a really good point - maybe Mother Winter didn't lose her walking stick in the sense of it was taken, but lost it as in lost a hand of poker?
Imagine if, way in the past, Nemesis decides to start infecting people as a new tactic. The Fae have to call in a mortal to combat the threat, so Merlin shows up and bargains with Winter. He builds them a set of magical gates and gets a guardian to go with them (I suspect it might have been Rashid), but in return (they are Fae, after all) he gets Mother Winter's stick and perhaps a few other things.
EDIT: This explains why, with all of her power, Mother Winter is prevented from retrieving the Blackstaff. As a Fae, she can't go back on a deal. I think this is the only reasonable way that someone could have prevented Mother Winter from immediately taking it back. What it is worth in trade, however, is not as clearly set.
Finding any wizard insane enough to attempt such a theft would be the most difficult part of the entire scenario.I'm thinking you're underestimating Harry's crazy level a wee bit. If he thought he'd have to, he'd definitely do it.
If something is so insane that even Harry wouldn't consider it then you know that the needle has gone right off the scale.
How long has the White Council had the Blackstaff
Look for Celtic Lore around 1065 ad.
Finding any wizard insane enough to attempt such a theft would be the most difficult part of the entire scenario.
If something is so insane that even Harry wouldn't consider it then you know that the needle has gone right off the scale.
How long has the White Council had the Blackstaff
Look for Celtic Lore around 1065 ad.
Now we have another search term to find the actual lore behind "The Case of the Stolen Walking Stick"
Battle of Hastings took place in 1066. That was the last time Mab and Titania shared a civil conversation.
"I do not know." She gave me an oblique look. "I have not exchanged words with my sister since before Hastings."
Q: Can you tell us a little more about the black staff?http://bittenbybooks.com/?p=22804
A: The staff keeps Eb from going crazy, mostly. Also, the White Council stole it from someone. And they really want it back.
Q: Is the original Merlin still alive?2010 Powell's books Q&A off of Youtube @8:20
A: Kind of… life… death… it’s kind of a squishy line in the Dresdenverse.
If the Dresden books were about Merlin, it does seem to fit. Harry Dresden isn't Merlin yet, but he's getting there.
Maybe something happens to Harry in the future to turn him into a super-genius(less Wile E. Coyote, more Stephen Hawking on mental steroids) which allows him to make spells like that-- but barring that, I can't believe it.
With magic like what we saw in the creation of Demonreach? I love Harry, but nothing human made that spell, imho. Or at least nothing human designed it; it's too difficult for us to think in more than three dimensions at once. Four dimensions is doable, we guess at that when we try to picture black holes, but setting up spells to run across multiple dimensions beyond our three physical ones + time? Egh. Not when Demonreach had to dumb it down in order for Bob to understand it. Theoretical physicists imagine plenty of other dimensions, but they don't try to describe what it would be like to actually move around and do stuff in them, other than maybe a fourth physical dimension.
Maybe something happens to Harry in the future to turn him into a super-genius(less Wile E. Coyote, more Stephen Hawking on mental steroids) which allows him to make spells like that-- but barring that, I can't believe it.
Would Lash be able to do anything to help with the understanding of dimensions required for spells like that?
But yeah, Harry isn't going to be pulling any spells like that on his own.
How long has the White Council had the Blackstaff
Look for Celtic Lore around 1065 ad.
Q: Can you tell us a little more about the black staff?
A: The staff keeps Eb from going crazy, mostly. Also, the White Council stole it from someone. And they really want it back.
"I do not know." She gave me an oblique look. "I have not exchanged words with my sister since before Hastings."
I think that the Blackstaff/Walking Cane might not actually be Mother Winter's, in a "she made it/it's part of her" way. Maybe the Staff is more like the wild hunt. Earlking usually is the leader of the wildhunt, because he is the strongest hunter around. But he can be replaced, as shown. Now I think the same might apply to the Staff, and it would explain, why Mother Winter is not simply getting it back. She was bested, and she can't. Like a "no take backs" rule or something. Even the Earlking asked nicely, if he could have his wild hunt back.
Ehem.
From my 100% trustworthy and accurate internet research, I have found, I believe, who the staff belonged to.
The Dagda, an ancient Celtic deity also referred to as "The All-Father", had a magical staff, or club, that had the ability to kill with one side, and raise the dead with the other. Supposedly his staff could kill 9 at one. He also had a Cauldron that could make infinite food, which was the original "Holy Grail" that King Arthur was after, before the story got changed. Also he had 2 magic pigs or something.
Oh yeah, the Dagda is also the warrior god that defeated the Fomorians and kicked them out of Ireland.
So there you have it, that's a bit of the Real Life lore and it seems to mesh up with several parts of the Dresdenverse.
The question then becomes, if the Dagda (who is too close to Odin to not be Odin) was the owner of the Blackstaff for a time, was he the one that the White Council stole it from, or had it changed owners by then?
Also some other avenues open up here. Arthur, Knight of the Cross, went on a quest to get a magic item that belonged to the Dagda, and it so happens that Arthur's Wizard buddy starts up the White Council who just so happen to have the Dagda's magic kill stick?
No coincidence.
I know it would seem odd that Odin would be chummy with the current Blackstaff Eb, but we know that he plays the long game and doesn't seem particularly petty, so maybe he and Eb have an understanding, or kinship. Maybe a lot of things.
It still could be that Mother Winter was the original owner, but there is an Odin/Merlin angle here for sure.
When Eb does his "Laying of the Cattle move" at the major battle near the end of Changes, is that a power of the blackstaff?
The Blackstaff is what keeps that kind of thing from driving him insane and turning him into a giggling villain. Yah you don't go messing with black magic in the Dresden Files, it's very very bad for you. At the same time, Magic is something that happens because you truly believe that when you set out to do it that you should be able to do that sort of thing. That says a few things about Eb that really Harry hasn't run into in any other forum other than right there. Yah Poor guy, He's got a tough job.
@4:30
Does the blackstaff have any powers that relate to the dead?
Other than making people dead? Really, that's kind of the point [Crowd Laughs] Really but the staff itself what it really does is it keeps Eb sane while he's doing insane things. Lucky him, he gets to deal with a hideously guilty conscious and nightmares later, but that's better than later being like *Muahahahahahahahaha* Which is sort of the other option if your going to go around using magic like that.
It still could be that Mother Winter was the original owner, but there is an Odin/Merlin angle here for sure.I kind of think that Merlin is just one of the many mantles that Odin has been wearing over time.
Maybe Odin is... everyone!!! :P
Ok so to reiterate:
There is a Celtic legend that the Blackstaff is based off of that comes from around 1065 A.D.
Jim has also said:
As the OP points out, Mother Winter had a walking stick that was lost and "she can't move around without it, so she probably wants it back."
Now add in the fact that Titania said:
The battle of Hastings happend in 1066, or "around 1065 A.D." (Blackblade citation (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35014.msg1678053.html#msg1678053))
So I really really want to find out about if there is a "celtic legend" from around the time of the Battle of Hastings that involves an old crone losing her walking stick. Google isn't getting the job done for me yet though.
HALP!
Extra thoughts:
Mother Winter has an IRON set of false teeth. Kinda odd for a fairy right?
I searched and searched, can't find ANYthing on this topic (Except that maybe the Winter Queens were also known as The Morrigan, but maybe I found out what it's made out of...
"BLACKTHORN
Blackthorn is a winter tree. Its white flowers are seen even before the leaves in the spring. It is black barked with vicious thorns and grows in dense thickets. The wood is used in the cudgel shillelagh and Blasting Stick. Its thorns are used to pierce waxen images. Blackthorn indicates strong action of fate or outside influences that must be obeyed. "
EDIT: More and more interesting...
"Straif Drai'on Draenenwen Blackthorn - "Tree of Punishment and Strife" Peasant. Staves of Magickal Power. Draoi (Wizard), Drai" (Druid). Power in Visible and Invisible Worlds. Use to overcome resistance to One's will. Sorcha (bright colored) or purple-black."
I searched and searched, can't find ANYthing on this topic (Except that maybe the Winter Queens were also known as The Morrigan, but maybe I found out what it's made out of...
I've seen similar theories before, and I think they are possible, but they aren't tied to the 1065 AD timeframe very well. I think they are the best tiein we have thus far but these WoJ's about the blackstaff make me think they are going in the wrong direction:
Some might read this differently, but I read this as saying the staff isn't doing the killing, Eb is, and the staff is just helping him keep sane and uncorrputed by the darkness of the magic. Which doesn't quite fit with the legends of Dagda's club (which is what I think the askers here were tiptoeing around asking about to avoid an "I'm not gonna tell you" sing song)
HALP!
Extra thoughts:
Mother Winter has an IRON set of false teeth. Kinda odd for a fairy right?
The Witch of Wookeyhttp://www.britannia.com/history/legend/collection/legcol13.html
Wookey, Somerset
Deep in the dark caverns of Wookey Hole dwelt at one time the Witch of Wookey - and dwells there still, if the gossips are to be trusted, though she, her pots and pans and horrid "familiars," are all turned to stone. A chagrined and disappointed woman, she used her merciless arts to blight girls' lives and keep them from the joys denied to herself. But she reckoned without a certain Holy Clerk of Glastonbury! With his Good Book he exorcised the Witch, and turned her to stone; he then cleansed from all evil the dreadful cavern.
I immediately could only find a few historically important things of note (thing that I can relate directly to DF) that happened in 1060s Europe:That is all saxon, nothing irish.
1063: The River Thames is frozen for 14 weeks. (Obviously something Wintery happened)
1066:
King of England dies, and New King (Harold) gets chosen by a council of old men.
Battle of Hastings, King Harold and all his brothers are killed and England gets taken over.
Dark Ages ends, Middle Ages begin.
End of the Viking Age in England.
This is interesting. On further reading on the Morrigan, it seems that she was the consort to the Dagda, and she indeed translates quite perfectly into the Winter Queen thing. Depending on the source, it also seems that Morgan Le Fay might have been her human aspect. Considering the relationship between the Dagda/Morrigan and Merlin/Morgan, there might be some credence to the "Odin is Merlin" theory. In the same book we find Vaderung is Odin is Kringle who has Time Powers, and we also see that Merlin is very powerful and has Time Powers AND the mental acuity to work in multiple dimensions- I'd say there's a correlation.
I personally like the idea that the original Merlin was just a crafty bad-ass wizard. I feel that Odin is Santa is Merlin is taking it one step too far, but I of course trust Jim could make it work and be believable and interesting.
I guess it really depends on which stories Jim draws from. It looks like Morgan Le Fey was originally a supernatural being, and later was reported to be Arthur's half sister. Merlin was supposed to have a demon as his father, I like the idea that Odin is Merlin's Sire better than the two being the same person.
The more I'm looking into it the more things seem to mesh up. Jim specifically mentions Celtic legend and the Dagda story jibs with Arthurian legend and Dresdenology. The thing is that we don't have to go 100% on the real world lore because it all goes through the Jim filter. Lore is a bunch of half-truths anyway.
I am totally open to hearing your thoughts on the matter if you have another line of thought for me to investigate.
I'm just not mentally tying the Blackstaff too tightly to the 1065 AD time frame. That might have been when a change of hands occurred or something.
I immediately could only find a few historically important things of note (thing that I can relate directly to DF) that happened in 1060s Europe:
1063: The River Thames is frozen for 14 weeks. (Obviously something Wintery happened)
1066:
King of England dies, and New King (Harold) gets chosen by a council of old men.
Battle of Hastings, King Harold and all his brothers are killed and England gets taken over.
Dark Ages ends, Middle Ages begin.
End of the Viking Age in England.
We have a little bit to work with there in terms of guessing at the powers and meaning behind those events, but as far as lore and mythology goes I'm at a total lose as to were else I should be looking.
Cailleac Bhuer (call-y'ac V'fhoor) - Also called the Blue Hag or Stone Woman. She originates in Scotland and is an old woman of human size who walks by night with a walking stick made of holly with the carved head of a crow on top. A large carrion crow sits on her left shoulder and a touch from her magical staff means instant death to a human. If her staff is found unattended it will give its owner the power of enchantment.
I also picked up on the missing walking stick = blackstaff connection. My guess is that the blackstaff veils itself so that Mother Winter cannot sense where it is or who has it.
Now, we have WoJ that the next book will feature the Denarians and will be a heist book. Anyone want to wager that Nic or one of his ilk somehow spots the blackstaff in Eb's possession, and gets word to Mother Winter about its location. Mother Winter then orders the Winter Knight to steal back the staff from Eb for her.
That scenario would be just chock-full of possibilities.
Ok, yeah... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cailleach = winter queen/hag
I also picked up on the missing walking stick = blackstaff connection. My guess is that the blackstaff veils itself so that Mother Winter cannot sense where it is or who has it.
Now, we have WoJ that the next book will feature the Denarians and will be a heist book. Anyone want to wager that Nic or one of his ilk somehow spots the blackstaff in Eb's possession, and gets word to Mother Winter about its location. Mother Winter then orders the Winter Knight to steal back the staff from Eb for her.
That scenario would be just chock-full of possibilities.
Good find, that fits perfectly with Mother Winter's walking stick, and it has the connection to death like the Blackstaff.
Sometimes I wish I could swim against the currents of time so I could get my hands on the rest of the Dresden books.
Why would you need to swim against the currents of time? ;)
Here's the thing I don't get about the Blackstaff:
In the RPG or maybe a WoJ, the thing most special about the Blackstaff is that it allows its bearer to do black magic without it staining their soul. Just sucks it right out of them.
If that's the case, what does Mother Winter need it for? Or, is that simply what it does in the hands of a mortal?
Sound like the perfect order for the Winter queen to issue to her newly minted Knight. Especially since we know there is gonna be a big theft in the next book. Find Mother Winter's staff (blackstaff?) and steal it back.
The issue I keep running into is that 1064-1066 was during the "Historical Cycle" of Irish mythology and most of the documentation I have found deals with the disgrace and death of Donnchad mac Briain and the power grab by his successor, which effectively ended the power of the High King in Ireland. Not finding references to Faerie, though there is a lot in the Ulster and Fenian cycles, but they were around the birth of Christ through the 400's, outside of the date range we were given. I looked through them anyway,trying to find any woman wielding a staff at all, but I did not have the gumption to go over the translated texts, just looked at synopsis.
There seems to be an association with "Anann" an aspect of a tripartite goddess of death destructions and such, called "Morrigan" who has a few websites devoted to her current worship (?!?) :o
Finding any wizard insane enough to attempt such a theft would be the most difficult part of the entire scenario.
If something is so insane that even Harry wouldn't consider it then you know that the needle has gone right off the scale.
It is popularly believed that maces were employed by the clergy in warfare to avoid shedding blood (sine effusione sanguinis). The evidence for this is sparse and appears to derive almost entirely from the depiction of Bishop Odo of Bayeux wielding a club-like mace at the Battle of Hastings in the Bayeux Tapestry, the idea being either that he did so to avoid shedding blood or bearing the arms of war. The fact that his brother Duke William carries a similar item suggests that, in this context, the mace may have been simply a symbol of authority.source (http://z6.invisionfree.com/SurvivaloftheFittest/ar/t76.htm)
In trying to look at this from another angle, I tried to google what important staff might have been at the Battle of Hastings to see who might have ended up with the staff after 1065, and found...
source (http://z6.invisionfree.com/SurvivaloftheFittest/ar/t76.htm)
Here's a picture of the "club" being wielded by Odo on the tapestery supposedly commishioned by Bishop Odo himself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Odo_bayeux_tapestry.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Odo_bayeux_tapestry.png)
It's not a staff, but then Dagda's "staff" is more commonly referred to as a club too.
Gotta keep on researching...
The Iron teeth are a givaway, as is the cleaver.
"In Russian folklore there are many stories of Baba Yaga, the fearsome witch with iron teeth."
look in http://www.oldrussia.net/baba.html
plus numerous other sources
No info on the staff though, she always lived in a cabin in the woods, but it spun around on chicken legs...
Guys, my initial google trolling hasn't gotten any hits, but Jim flat out said 3 years ago:QuoteHow long has the White Council had the BlackstaffNow we have another search term to find the actual lore behind "The Case of the Stolen Walking Stick"
Look for Celtic Lore around 1065 ad.
According to the Heimskringla, Harald Hardrada flew a raven banner called Landřyđan or "Land-waster"; whether this was the same banner as that flown by Sigurd of Northumbria is unclear. In a conversation between Harald and King Sweyn II of Denmark,
Sveinn asked Haraldr which of his possessions of his he valued most highly. He answered that it was his banner (merki), Landřyđan. Thereupon Sveinn asked what virtue it had to be accounted so valuable. Haraldr replied that it was prophesied that victory would be his before whom this banner was borne; and added that this had been the case ever since he had obtained it. Thereupon Sveinn said, "I shall believe that your flag has this virtue if you fight three battles with King Magnús, your kinsman, and are victorious in all."[29]
Years later, during Harald's invasion of England, Harald fought a pitched battle against two English earls outside York. Harald's Saga relates that when King Haraldr saw that the battle array of the English had come down along the ditch right opposite them, he had the trumpets blown and sharply urged his men to the attack, raising his banner called Landřyđan. And there so strong an attack was made by him that nothing held against it.[30]
Harald's army flew the banner at the Battle of Stamford Bridge, where it was carried by a warrior named Frírek. After Harald was struck by an arrow and killed, his army fought fiercely for possession of the banner, and some of them went berserk in their frenzy to secure the flag. In the end the "magic" of the banner failed, and the bulk of the Norwegian army was slaughtered, with only a few escaping to their ships.[31]
I am coming to this late but I think we are missing something if we overlook the ties to Baba Yaga. I mentioned this briefly in another thread but let me make more mention of it here. I should mention that I am talking about legend and folklore here so none of this is etched in stone. Baba Yaga is indeed often pictured as having iron teeth. She is also cannibalistic and is often portrayed preparing her meals cutting up the bodies with a cleaver. Also of great interest to me she is often associated with winter and seen as a guardian or a guide on the border between life and death. It sounds very much like Mother Winter to me. She was an extremely powerful witch. Although she is often seen as evil, she is also often a provider giving those on quests items that they need if their hearts are pure. She is seen in very early myths as having only one leg.(Some think that she may have originally have been a snake goddess thus explaining the single leg.) She is later seen as having one "bony leg". This could tie into Mother Winter's bad leg which seem unusual in an extremely powerful immortal.Don't forget the house with chicken legs. :)
This brings me to the stolen walking stick. I tried to imagine how a simple stick would be needed by someone of Mother Winter's power just to get around. Baba Yaga's main form of transportation was a mortar and pestle. She rode in the mortar and used the pestle to steer or to push the mortar around like a river boatman would use a pole. (the legends vary) If she lost the pestle which was part of her magical transportation, her inability to travel much makes much more sense. I don't have time or space here to go into all the ideas of what the mortar and pestle may have represented but remember that it was said that the absorption of evil influence was not the chief purpose of the staff just a beneficial side effect. ( I am hurrying in my paraphrase and may not have it exactly right.) I am wondering if someone stole her pestle.
Now we have another search term to find the actual lore behind "The Case of the Stolen Walking Stick"
I quite ignorant concerning celtic mythology, but I did visit the location of the battle of Hastings, and saw the Bayeux Tapestry.
My guess about the staff: it's the Landřyđan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_banner) of Harald Hardrada. The guy tried to invade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Hardrada#Invasion_of_England) England in 1066.(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Raven_banner_%28Bayeux_Tapestry%29.jpg)The raven banner
The banner may have been a red herring, or maybe it was just Odin and one of his scheme, and the pole was the real thing.
That being said, keep in mind that my understanding/knowledge of celtic mythology is very limited...
Very interesting. Of note, the picture you show is of a Norman (invading force from France) soldier carrying that banner, but the other instance of that banner or something similar is of a Norman horse trampling it.
Some of what I have read of the Battle of Hastings is that the Norman force had many mercinaries (possibly some being Norse), and that the English/Saxon force had just won the Battle of Stamford Bridge where the Landřyđan had just been captured only weeks before the Battle of Hastings. It's even said that the short time
LOL, did no one (else) here actually hear the stories as a kid? Really?as a kid, no. my first Baba Yaga experience was in an X-men comic where she tried to eat Colossus's little sister. First time I encountered Eitri too... well, no, I tell a lie, I'd read some Norse mythos at that point.
uhm... Cliked on "Post" by error?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2012, 12:27:22 AM » A huge theme in this book was that the Sidhe are titanically powerful, and we're all here wondering if some wizard stole something from a being more wise and experienced than /Mab/, who, lets remember, was running the long con this whole book. I find it far more likely that (assuming it's Mother Winter's) the staff was taken through some trickery orchestrated by a full Queen or Mother Summer, most likely the latter because of Summer's role in limiting the power of Winter upon mortals. Probably had more to do with a fae, and probably involved a bumbling wizard who didn't really know much about what was going on. Probably he/she got one of those lovely "rock and a hard place" choice
I wouldn't say it is impossible. Even Intellectus has its gaps, though the wizardly hitman having a staff much like her favorite old walking stick could lead the supernaturally intelligent to figure it out for themselves. And who knows what kind of magic has been laid on the thing? It could naturally preclude information about itself being known elsewhere. People know of the title Blackstaff, know of his abilities... Doesn't mean they know about his beating stick. I would assume he ends most things who see him using it anyways.
Random alternate thought...
Could it be possible for Harry to create a second staff for Mother Winter using the branch from the oldest tree on Demonreach
I think that's /exactly/ what he's going to do. Ley line? Probably not. Soulfire? Possibly.
IMO the lay line seems more like the current blackstaff. Remember in Changes when it was seeping into EB's veins when he was using it?
Sure, but I'm thinking Harry won't want to make Blackstaff 2.0, he'll want to make Whitestaff 1.0.
Symbolically it fits, since we then have an artifact that lets nominally "evil" creatures do overall good without losing "evil" aspect.
Could you imagine what Mother Winter could do with just a little bit of soul? (other than dance)
Good point, btw. We have not really seen any dance magic in the series.
In the beginning of CD Harry's birthday party had plenty of magical fae dancing.
And Mab flexed her knowledge of Harry by waltzing with him. (Was it a waltz?)
But what did the dance itself accomplish magically?
Reinforcement of power, control, knowledge and dominance over Harry.
LOL, did no one (else) here actually hear the stories as a kid? Really?Mussorgsky, pictures of an exhibition. First time I heard the name.
Odin/Santa Claus' staff was pretty snazzy and it could teleport whole groups of people to wherever he wanted. Mother Winter was having problems "getting around". Why does it have to be the Blackstaff?
Random alternate thought...
Could it be possible for Harry to create a second staff for Mother Winter using the branch from the oldest tree on Demonreach and infusing it with a lay line?
Random Thought: I wonder if Mother Winter losing her walking stick is related to the increase in human longevity and rise in population? I doubt she lost her walking stick and immediately became a homebody. She probably slowed down over the centuries.
If she's "Death", and isn't getting out as much as she used to, could be related. Don't think it really means anything. Just a thought.
If she's "Death", and isn't getting out as much as she used to, could be related. Don't think it really means anything. Just a thought.
Then he swept the Blackstaff from left to right, murmured a word, and ripped the life from a hundred men.
They just . . . died.
There was absolutely nothing to mark their deaths. No sign of pain. No struggle. No convulsion of muscles. No reaction at all. One moment they were firing wildly down at us—and the next, they simply—
Dropped.
Dead.
The old man turned to the other wall, and I saw two or three of the brighter soldiers throw their guns down and run. I don’t know if they made it, but the old man swept the Blackstaff through the air again, and the gunmen on that side of the field dropped dead where they stood.
My godmother watched it happen, and bounced and clapped her hands some more, as delighted as a child at the circus.
I stared for a second, shocked. Ebenezar had just shattered the First Law of Magic: Thou shalt not kill. He had used magic to directly end the life of another human being—nearly two hundred times. I mean, yes, I had known what his office allowed him to do. . . . But there was a big difference between appreciating a fact and seeing that terrible truth in motion.
The Blackstaff itself pulsed and shimmered with shadowy power, and I got the sudden sense that the thing was alive, that it knew its purpose and wanted nothing more than to be used, as often and as spectacularly as possible.
According to the Orkneyinga Saga, it was made for Sigurd the Stout by his mother, a völva or sorceress. She told him that the banner would "bring victory to the man it's carried before, but death to the one who carries it."
I also saw veins of venomous black begin to ooze their way over the old man’s hand, reaching up slowly, spreading to his wrist. He grimaced and held his left forearm with his right hand for a moment, then looked over his shoulder and said, “All right!”
According to Harry no one is sure if Death exists as an entity or not.
"...It is what I am. The Unmaker, The Destroyer".
Mother Winter's own words: .
I'm not saying that she IS Death (you can tell because she doesn't speak in small caps*), but if The Mothers are or were 2 of the 3 Fates, My guess is that Mother Winter was the one who cut your lifeline (partial WOJ mentioning Mother Summer's roommate getting her shears)
If she has been getting out less and less, it could be related to the increase in human longevity.
Mussorgsky, pictures of an exhibition. First time I heard the name.
Like Odin is also Santa.
Anyone connected Odin's Santa guise with the doughnuts yet?
For some reason this post makes me think that we totally need a scene where Death (or Mother Winter in proper aspect if you like) fiddles away at Saint-Saens' Danse Macabre. With rooster crow at daylight.now you've got a scene from The Graveyard Book stuck in my head.
but if The Mothers are or were 2 of the 3 Fates, My guess is that Mother Winter was the one who cut your lifeline
Mother Winter's own words: .
I'm not saying that she IS Death (you can tell because she doesn't speak in small caps*), but if The Mothers are or were 2 of the 3 Fates, My guess is that Mother Winter was the one who cut your lifeline (partial WOJ mentioning Mother Summer's roommate getting her shears)
If she has been getting out less and less, it could be related to the increase in human longevity.
Good point, btw. We have not really seen any dance magic in the series.
She IS death, but she has several aspects, as many heavy-hitters do. Like Odin is also Santa.
We did see Listens-to-Wind use dance magic in Turn Coat to defend himself from Shagnasty's attacks. Shaman, making a magic defense by dancing. It seems like what you were talking about.Judging by what Thomas said happened to him after he joined the Hunt, Harry's going to get enhanced senses and probably a degree of extrasensory ability at minimum, and quite possibly some other traits after leading the Hunt.
She also may not be the only immortal who takes on the aspect of Death. Multiple immortal beings take on the role of leading the Wild Hunt, for example. (Including Harry how, holy crap-- wonder if that'll have any unintended consequences? Nah... ) There are versions of Death in many different religions, so it could be that multiple immortals can assume the role, depending on the time, place, or situation.
We did see Listens-to-Wind use dance magic in Turn Coat to defend himself from Shagnasty's attacks. Shaman, making a magic defense by dancing. It seems like what you were talking about.According to Harry pretty much any dance the sidhe perform is magic as their magic is created through movement.
She also may not be the only immortal who takes on the aspect of Death. Multiple immortal beings take on the role of leading the Wild Hunt, for example. (Including Harry how, holy crap-- wonder if that'll have any unintended consequences? Nah... ) There are versions of Death in many different religions, so it could be that multiple immortals can assume the role, depending on the time, place, or situation.
Mother Winter can't get around without it and in the other books when she was mentioned she was able to move around just fine.
ok so the fates have shears for cutting the string of fate/life but wtf is the cleaver and why did MS seem upset MW didn't use one of the regular knives? is there a cleaver in any mythos?
thats a neat idea actually, it would explain why its basic suicide to cross over on the island, the mothers are 'active' gods btw, not retired. even if a DR prisoner escaped if it crossed over i'd be in for a world of hurtin.
Especially if the place across from Demonreach really is Tartarus. It was the lowest version of Hades or Hell in Greek myth, a place of torment. A lot more like the Christian idea of Hell than Hades was supposed to be.well yea kevin sorbo told me all about it ::)
well yea kevin sorbo told me all about it ::)
What movie or series was he in again?he's like, the embodiment of hercules. the legendary journeys. also had a movie based on it. and cameo's in xena warrior princess
he's like, the embodiment of hercules. the legendary journeys. also had a movie based on it. and cameo's in xena warrior princess
Actually the Hercules movies came first IIRC; they were kind of testing the waters and saw it did well so they made a series.yea your right i remember the series alot better though so that was my reference point.
Interestingly, WoJ suggests that titans are imprisoned under Demonreach.
Can you give me a reference for this. I would like to see it. I love the idea. Some of the titans had a fifty heads or a hundred arms. That would be hard to do with humanlike heads or arms but if you think of snakes for the heads or tentacles for the arms you would have creatures that sound very much like the Outsiders, at least if they are Lovecraftian as most suspect. At least one was a Cyclops. If, in fact, the theory that the name the Mothers have in common is Gaia things get even more interesting. Gaia was the mother of the Titans and the Giants. She was also the mother of Typhon according to some legends had a hundred heads (sometimes dragon heads) and whose bottom half was the coils of a gigantic viper. He reached to the stars and was covered in wings. She (Gaia) was also the mother (with Tartarus who was a being as well as a place) of Typhon's wife Echidna who is often referred to as the "Mother of Monsters". Depending on the myth, she is said to be the mother of a great many monsters including Cerebrus and the Nemedian Lion. If both theories (that Demonreach was Tartarus and that the Mothers are faces of Gaia) are true then that would open the door for all kinds of interesting things.
Thanks. I wonder in TDF universe if Zeus is another of the faces that Odin wears. I would hope not since Zeus was arrogant, a rapist and the world's worst deadbeat dad but it would be interesting in light of the battle between Zeus and the Titans.
Yes. Usually with him being the beast.
Thanks. I wonder in TDF universe if Zeus is another of the faces that Odin wears.
Thanks. I wonder in TDF universe if Zeus is another of the faces that Odin wears. I would hope not since Zeus was arrogant, a rapist and the world's worst deadbeat dad but it would be interesting in light of the battle between Zeus and the Titans.