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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: FirstSelector on November 28, 2012, 01:04:26 AM
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This may have been kicked around before, but I haven't been able to find a similar theory. My apologies if so.
We meet the Mothers for the second time in Cold Days, but in a rather unique way. Harry attempts to summon Mother Winter... and it works. His summoning reveals, I think, a very important gap in our knowledge.
Premise:
The Mothers, along with a heretofore unknown entity, are the Fates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fates).
Background:
The Fates are three women that appear in various mythologies who control the destinies of mortals. I will use the Greek names for concreteness. There is Clotho, the spinner of the thread of life, Lachesis, who measured the length, and Atropos, who cut it with her shears.
Another rather prevalent mythos surrounding thee women goddesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess_(Neopaganism)) is the idea of the Mother, the Maiden, and the Crone. One can map the three Fates onto the three goddesses easily.
In most of these mythos, the Fates are absurdly powerful, up to deciding on the fates of the Gods themselves.
Claim:
Mother Winter is the Atropos, the Crone; Mother Summer is Lachesis, the Mother; we have yet to identify the Maiden, Clotho.
Supporting evidence:
Perhaps the most obvious evidence is that Harry attempts to summon Mother Winter using the Greek and Norse names for Atropos.
“I am Harry Dresden, the Winter Knight, and I needs must speak with thee! Athropos! Skuld! Mother Winter, I summon thee!
Mother Winter’s rocker creaked, though it didn’t really seem to move. “He knew certain names. He was not wholly stupid in choosing them, or wholly wrong in using them.”
While on the subject of names, it is implied twice that there is a name that references both Mother Summer and Winter together. I suggest that it would be the name of the Fates, which is Moirai in Greek.
Mother Summer’s bright green eyes narrowed. “Did he . . . ?”
“No,” croaked Mother Winter. “Not that one."
Mother Summer’s smile appeared for a moment, dazzling me, and then was gone again. “It was not an imbecilic guess,” she said. “And, yes, she has been known by such names before. But you’ve only guessed the name of one of her masks—not our most powerful name.”
Additional evidence is provided by looking at the personalities of Mother Summer and Mother Winter. Mother Winter is old (so old she can barely walk), does not suffer fools, and is generally not the nicest Fae around. She is perpetually shrouded in her cloak and has an absolutely evil cackle. She also has the requisite shears:
Mother Winter reached down with her withered hands, and took up a pair of rusted shears. She cut the trailing threads and passed me the cloth.
Mother Summer, on the other hand, is much more matronly and kind. She bustles around their cottage and tends the house. She actually tries to put Harry at ease and is generally pleasant.
Speculation:
If we accept that Mothers Winter and Summer have a corresponding Maiden, then we must speculate on who that would be. My best guess at the moment is that the role of the Maiden is played by the Summer Lady. It is not known what true purpose the Ladies' power fulfills, or at least it hasn't been revealed.
“And her duties?” I asked. “What is the purpose of the Winter Lady?”
“That is for her to know,” Mab said.
Given that Clotho is associated with life and giving birth, it seems more reasonable that the Summer Lady would serve in this role rather than the Winter Lady. It would also fit with the "youngness" of the Summer Lady, and it is not unreasonable to draw the connection between the Lady and Mother.
Conclusion:
I think that Mother Summer and Winter are two of the three Fates, which necessitates identifying the third Fate, the Maiden.
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I don't think that's their oldest name though. (On another note I would guess they might be The Norns too.) I think They were once Lillith or Some of her children.
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I think fates is bit too easy.
Didn't Momma Sunshine say that "Our name" making it so that they have been a singular entity at some point. Or some god / being that has had duality in it's nature. It's possible Momma Snow and Momma Sunshine were fates at some point, but I don't think it's their oldest identity.
Also Momma snow is _OLD_ so norse/ greek stuff is way too modern.
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Jim stated that the mantle of Mother summer has changed once and that Mother Winter never has.
Also Mother Summer asking "Did he... ?" could be construed as fear to an extent, Harry might have the power to unmake beings no matter how powerful if he knew their true name.
This might also explain Uriel's outburst and how Lasciel's shadow changed into Lash.
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The Mothers are the Crones.
The Queens are the Mothers.
The Ladies are the Maidens.
Maiden, Mother and Crone is one of the oldest mythical tropes out there, and sees countless expressions in real world religion and in fiction.
(On a side note, my favorite expression of the three is with Eve in Sandman - she's all three personally.)
I think that when you look at the Queen Mothers are being the Crone, the fun part lies in thinking of who they are individually. My current wild guess is that Mother Winter was Eve (yes, THAT Eve).
Or maybe Frau Totenkinder. :p
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I don't disagree that they may have other, older names - we certainly have evidence that several mythological entities may in fact be different facets of the same being. In fact, I think it is very likely that they have additional "masks," as it were.
Also, to be clear, this shouldn't suggest that the Summer Lady is on the same power level as the Mothers. In retrospect, the third Fate would likely have to be at equivalent power. There is, of course, the option that the Maiden hasn't been on screen yet.
The idea that Harry could accidentally unmake Mother Winter by using the wrong name would be totally reasonable, but I felt that in connection with Mother Summer's other comments I figured she was more worried about him knowing their old name.
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"It's not your world" said Summer.
I believe it's Mother Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_goddess), and also Gaia.
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The iron teeth for Mother Winter just make me think of Baba Yaga. Similar with the cleaver and stew, really.
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Hard to say who Mother Winter and Mother Summer were when they were still one entity. Some prehistoric mother/earth goddess perhaps. But she could just as well have been the biblical Eve.
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Given that Pratchett was directly referenced this time around, I'm led to believe that the name Mother Winter does not wish to be called is Crone, like Granny Weatherwax before her.
As for their Identity, I believe they are two aspects of the same being, Mother Earth or Gaia.
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In Neil Gaiman's Sandman, Titania of Faerie is the only Fae queen that we ever see, however the tripartite goddess is present throughout the story, especially in the climax: The Kindly Ones.
In the first arc of Sandman, Morpheus calls upon Hecate, a triple-form goddess with Maiden, Mother, and Crone aspects. Later, in a flashback, Orpheus is in Hades to gain back his love. To do so, he sings a song that makes all of the denizens of Hades cry, including the Furies (Erinyes), the same tripartite goddess, a slight for which they never forgive him and may even have called the Bacchae upon him to tear him apart. Finally, as the main antagonist of the climax, they appear as The Kindly Ones (Eumenides), again a tripartite goddess, responsible for hounding those who spill family blood. In the first and last forms, they are clearly Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos, as they are called by name. In The Kindly Ones, they are shown at the beginning of the story, Clotho helping to start a weaving, and Lachesis working on it. At the end, when their business is done, Atropos is seen cutting it short, a metaphor for the life, and story, that they have just ended.
These names, Hecate, Erinyes, Eumenides/Kindly Ones, are used to speak of them when operating for different functions. Perhaps these are the names that Mother Summer spoke of.
I would think that the Summer Lady is most likely Clotho, though. It seems to track.
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I also have to agree with the Gaia hypothesis. Having the Summer Lady as Clothos would unbalance Summer and Winter.
Gaia has two sides--light and dark, life and death. Or, as Ian Anderson sings (slightly adjusted as necessary for this case), "(S)he who made kittens put snakes in the grass."
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Gaia also known as the genious loci of the whole earth! : )
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We do have a WoJ that Mother summer once retired, and the current one is the replacement, so I'm not sure we need to find a third one, for the mother to be the fates..
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This may have been kicked around before, but I haven't been able to find a similar theory. My apologies if so.
We meet the Mothers for the second time in Cold Days, but in a rather unique way. Harry attempts to summon Mother Winter... and it works. His summoning reveals, I think, a very important gap in our knowledge.
Premise:
The Mothers, along with a heretofore unknown entity, are the Fates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fates).
Background:
The Fates are three women that appear in various mythologies who control the destinies of mortals. I will use the Greek names for concreteness. There is Clotho, the spinner of the thread of life, Lachesis, who measured the length, and Atropos, who cut it with her shears.
Another rather prevalent mythos surrounding thee women goddesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess_(Neopaganism)) is the idea of the Mother, the Maiden, and the Crone. One can map the three Fates onto the three goddesses easily.
In most of these mythos, the Fates are absurdly powerful, up to deciding on the fates of the Gods themselves.
Claim:
Mother Winter is the Atropos, the Crone; Mother Summer is Lachesis, the Mother; we have yet to identify the Maiden, Clotho.
Supporting evidence:
Perhaps the most obvious evidence is that Harry attempts to summon Mother Winter using the Greek and Norse names for Atropos.
While on the subject of names, it is implied twice that there is a name that references both Mother Summer and Winter together. I suggest that it would be the name of the Fates, which is Moirai in Greek.
Additional evidence is provided by looking at the personalities of Mother Summer and Mother Winter. Mother Winter is old (so old she can barely walk), does not suffer fools, and is generally not the nicest Fae around. She is perpetually shrouded in her cloak and has an absolutely evil cackle. She also has the requisite shears:
Mother Summer, on the other hand, is much more matronly and kind. She bustles around their cottage and tends the house. She actually tries to put Harry at ease and is generally pleasant.
Speculation:
If we accept that Mothers Winter and Summer have a corresponding Maiden, then we must speculate on who that would be. My best guess at the moment is that the role of the Maiden is played by the Summer Lady. It is not known what true purpose the Ladies' power fulfills, or at least it hasn't been revealed.
Given that Clotho is associated with life and giving birth, it seems more reasonable that the Summer Lady would serve in this role rather than the Winter Lady. It would also fit with the "youngness" of the Summer Lady, and it is not unreasonable to draw the connection between the Lady and Mother.
Conclusion:
I think that Mother Summer and Winter are two of the three Fates, which necessitates identifying the third Fate, the Maiden.
I like where you are going with this, but take it a step further. I get the idea that Mother Winter and Mother Summer live together because they are really two parts of the same being. I like the three goddesses approach, but what if, for the DV, the greeks just had a better understanding of the fae courts that Dresden does. I see the relationship between Winter and Summer looking something like this
Mothers Winter and Summer
/\
/ \
/ \
Mab Titania
/ \
/ \
/ \
WL (Molly) SL (Sarissa)
I think that they are just two parts of the same thing, like the opposite sides of a coin. And the lower down the chain you go, the less they resemble each other.
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I like this idea. I will admit that bringing up the three goddesses idea seemed to distract from my original idea a bit (tying in the Mothers to the Fates), but if instead the three Fates are some combination of traits from each of the various Queens (Mother Winter's malice, Titania's motheriness, and the Ladies' youthfulness), that would clear up the issue.
I also admit that I saw Mother Summer and Winter interacting a bit like Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg (from Discworld) in my head.
However, that begs the question of how the Mothers came to be in the first place. We know Mab was mortal once and a WoJ suggests she got her power via an ascension ritual. But Mother Winter has never stepped down (while Mother Summer did, which is another interesting topic in and of itself), so Mother Winter must have either existed before and took up a new role or was mortal herself.
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I like this idea. I will admit that bringing up the three goddesses idea seemed to distract from my original idea a bit (tying in the Mothers to the Fates), but if instead the three Fates are some combination of traits from each of the various Queens (Mother Winter's malice, Titania's motheriness, and the Ladies' youthfulness), that would clear up the issue.
I also admit that I saw Mother Summer and Winter interacting a bit like Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg (from Discworld) in my head.
However, that begs the question of how the Mothers came to be in the first place. We know Mab was mortal once and a WoJ suggests she got her power via an ascension ritual. But Mother Winter has never stepped down (while Mother Summer did, which is another interesting topic in and of itself), so Mother Winter must have either existed before and took up a new role or was mortal herself.
It's the position, not the current holder of the position that is important. Wasn't it said someplace that Fae don't reproduce with other Fae but with mortals? Meaning that most new Fae started out as changelings? Though creating a Fae from a mortal, (aka Molly) is not something I fully expected to be possible but I guess it is.
One note, one of the names used by Harry to Summon Mother Winter was Skuld. In Norse myth, Skuld is the Norn of the Future. Mother Winter should have been summoned using the name Urđr (Or Urd).
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One note, one of the names used by Harry to Summon Mother Winter was Skuld. In Norse myth, Skuld is the Norn of the Future. Mother Winter should have been summoned using the name Urđr (Or Urd).
Why? Death, cold and darkness is the future of the universe. So Skuld does seem more logical.
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Why? Death, cold and darkness is the future of the universe. So Skuld does seem more logical.
The future hasn't happened yet, so is usually represented as the youngest (like with baby new year, or the three goddesses in the Manga), the one creates the threads of fate. The past has happened, so is the oldest, the one who cuts the threads of fate.
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I don't disagree that they may have other, older names - we certainly have evidence that several mythological entities may in fact be different facets of the same being. In fact, I think it is very likely that they have additional "masks," as it were.
It's not likely, it's fact - confirmed at the end of the book by a certain overly clever one-eyed dude.
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another ID of them seems to fit well. Kali the Earth Mother and Goddess of murder. they could share that title well taking different aspects.
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It's not likely, it's fact - confirmed at the end of the book by a certain overly clever one-eyed dude.
My question about Kringle/Odin is if they are really the "same person". Is it different aspects of the same 'power' taking on anthropization? Is it like America Gods, where the belief that the two are different lead them to actually BE different?
I guess the simple way to put it is...could Kringle and Odin be in the same room, at the same time?
I also admit that I saw Mother Summer and Winter interacting a bit like Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg (from Discworld) in my head.
I got that vibe myself, which is why I posited that the name Mother Winter does not appreciate is "Crone".
You know, Maiden, Mother, and...the other one.
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You really should add this WOJ to the OP :)
Priscillie asked Jim if the Erlking is Wyldfae at DragonCon and posted this reply:
Jim: He is wyldfae. He isn't a subject of Mab or Titania. That's what Wyldfae means. But his origins are in the Summer-side of the cycle of seasons, just like Titania's are.
Ditto Santa, only in Winter. :)
(He /is/ beholden to Mother Summer, but basically everyone in Faerie is, so.)
(I mean, that's like saying "you must obey the law of gravity." Duh.)
Priscellie: You mean the Erlking has not learned to throw himself at the ground and miss? :D
Jim: Something like that, yes. :)
If Grandma says "Dearie, I'd really like you to do this for me," you just DO it. Or granny's roommate might pick up her shears.
I added bold and italics to the part that made me think they were the fates long before now.
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I'll take a WAG here: They were originally Hecate (or at least were joined into 1 entity as Hecate for a while)
Hecate or Hekate is an ancient goddess, frequently depicted in triple form and variously associated with crossroads, entrance-ways, fire, light, the Moon, magic, witchcraft, knowledge of herbs and poisonous plants, necromancy, and sorcery. She has rulership over earth, sea and sky, as well as a more universal role as Saviour (Soteira), Mother of Angels and the Cosmic World Soul.
Next WAG: The 3rd entity that is missing is Mother Nature.
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Speculation:
If we accept that Mothers Winter and Summer have a corresponding Maiden, then we must speculate on who that would be. My best guess at the moment is that the role of the Maiden is played by the Summer Lady. It is not known what true purpose the Ladies' power fulfills, or at least it hasn't been revealed.
Given that Clotho is associated with life and giving birth, it seems more reasonable that the Summer Lady would serve in this role rather than the Winter Lady. It would also fit with the "youngness" of the Summer Lady, and it is not unreasonable to draw the connection between the Lady and Mother.
I would dispute equating the three Fates of Greek/Roman mythology with the Maiden/Mother/Crone. The Maiden by her very nature is just that - MAIDEN. She's not gonna be having kids any time soon. That's the Mother's job - hence why she's called the Mother.
Also, most depictions of the three Fates from Greek/Roman times is of 3 Crones, not a maiden/mother/crone set.
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The Mothers are the Crones.
The Queens are the Mothers.
The Ladies are the Maidens.
Maiden, Mother and Crone is one of the oldest mythical tropes out there, and sees countless expressions in real world religion and in fiction.
(On a side note, my favorite expression of the three is with Eve in Sandman - she's all three personally.)
Actually . . .
The concept of the maiden/mother/crone triune goddess thing is only about 100 years old, based on since discredited research by Robert Graves.
Tripple goddesses in history have been, historically speaking, all the same age. The three norns, the three fates, etc., they're all old crones, not one of each of the three.
The Three Faces of Eve might be a more profitable avenue of exploration, instead.
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Perhaps a third fate, the one that measures, resides on earth rather than faerie.
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All this talk of three's, and mention in all the DF books of the "power of three", seems totally relevant, but everyone seems to be missing a point.
Aside from Winter and Summer, there IS a third faerie court that has been mentioned and featured numerously. the Erlking. So then, does the Erlking's court have a child/parent position?
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All this talk of three's, and mention in all the DF books of the "power of three", seems totally relevant, but everyone seems to be missing a point.
Aside from Winter and Summer, there IS a third faerie court that has been mentioned and featured numerously. the Erlking. So then, does the Erlking's court have a child/parent position?
not just a third Faerie court rather other powerful courts and beings from the Wylde Fae. The Erlkonig is but one of those. And Kris Kringle another...although he turns out to be even more that that....he seems to just play at being Fae.
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And Kris Kringle another...although he turns out to be even more that that....he seems to just play at being Fae.
It's one of those winter vacation package deals. ;)
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The idea of old gods stepping down or turning into something different was mentioned several times in CD, and the series as well. Maybe two of the three fates became mother Summer and Winter because that is what they were needed to be. It could be that there is no third anymore, for one reason or another.
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The idea of old gods stepping down or turning into something different was mentioned several times in CD, and the series as well. Maybe two of the three fates became mother Summer and Winter because that is what they were needed to be. It could be that there is no third anymore, for one reason or another.
or perhaps the third just went wylde? ;)
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i think the mothers (and maybe all 6 queens, and whole courts even) are a distillation of gaia the life planet.
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It's strange that Harry called Mother Winter by Skuld. In the Prose Edda, she is the youngest* of the Norns (representing the future) and also a valkyrie. Time to do a bit more thinking on this...
*Clotho is the youngest Moirai...
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My personal thoughts are that the "Fates" is just another mask.
Mother Winter = Sekhmet
Mother Summer = Hathor
Mother (combination of the two Spring & Fall) = Bastt
Hathor was created from Sekhmet (an alter-ego). At one time, Sekhmet (who is said to be older than the gods) was all encompassing (warmth, sun, growth, procreation, healing as well as cold, pestilence, death). When Hathor was created, Sekhmet retained the more pessimistic qualities, while Hathor became the Golden One. Goddess of procreation, dance, growth...The Lady of the Sycamores.
Sekhmet held "The Ankh of Life" (a magical staff). But, then Hathor arrived, and it is logical to assume that this might have turned the "Ankh of Life" into something else (such as the "Ankh of Death"...or Blackstaff)
Sekhmet's Kundalini (internal power) is that of a coiled serpent. When Maeve's power materialized to transfer to Molly, it was in the form of a serpent. Hathor is known as the "Hawk of the Sky." When Lily's power manifested, it formed as an eagle or a large hawk before transferring to Sarissa.
Sekhmet is often depicted as a woman with a lion's head. Bastt is pure feline and can turn into a cat (no it's not Mister...although that would be funny for Harry to learn that Mister is a goddess). It's always pointed out that those of Faerie possess the eyes of a cat, and seem to be drawn to them. We even saw Molly use the lesser faeries fear of cats to protect Harry in Cold Days. In addition to all that, Mother Winter has a nice metalic set of carnivore choppers that are reminiscent of a lion...and she has no problem consuming human flesh (reflective of Sekhmet's punishment of humans over a slight to the gods and Ra). Sekhmet is also known as the "Lady of Pestilence" and her little stash at the cottage sure reflects that as well.
Finally, Winter is balanced by Summer and vice versa. What better way than for Summer to be Winter and vice versa because Mother Winter and Mother Summer are essensially the same person, because they are alter-egos of each other. One was created from the other. Also, there is a symetry in their existence.
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OK, first CD lunatic notion from me; the Mothers are the White God. (In a Sophia sort of way).
Second; the Mothers are the White God's boss.
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OK, first CD lunatic notion from me; the Mothers are the White God. (In a Sophia sort of way).
Second; the Mothers are the White God's boss.
It's an possibility, but the way I see it the WG is universe-wide, the Mothers are Earth-centric.
Another possibility which was discussed on the forum: they are Gaia.
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OK, first CD lunatic notion from me; the Mothers are the White God. (In a Sophia sort of way).
Second; the Mothers are the White God's boss.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35071.0.html
Insane theory hi-five! At least someone's on the same page that I am.
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First thought: Mother Summer's more likely to be Clotho than Lachesis.
Why: Mother Winter is Atropos, the cutter of the threads, associated with death, destruction, and endings -- definitely fit. And Mother Summer should be the opposite of that -- associated with birth, creation, and beginnings. That's Clotho.
Lachesis, the middle Fate, is in many ways the most powerful and important. She controls everything else that goes on in between birth and death. Pretty much everything we think of as our fate or destiny.
I'd imagine that whoever wears the mantle of Lachesis is actually even more powerful than the two Mothers, at least by a little bit.
My WAG: The White God snagged the mantle of Lachesis (along with a *BUNCH* of others, like "Allfather", which Odin used to have) during his rise to power in the first millennium.
Another WAG: The triparte Hindu gods -- Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva are mantles that are equivalent to the three Fate mantles, so Mother Winter would answer to Shiva as easily as Atropos.
Final, and wildest WAG: The Name that Mother Summer was worried Harry might have guessed? That other tripart god -- the Christian Trinity. Of course the three parts don't match up at all well with the Fates or the Hindu Gods... but there are three parts. This one falls apart, though, when you try to imagine that Mother Winter is the Holy Spirit or Mother Summer is Jesus Christ (or vice versa -- I can see arguments either way). It seems like a bit of a stretch, and the mythologies don't match up well.
The two of them together sharing a mantle like Gaia (Mother Nature, Mother Earth, whatever) seems more likely -- though I'm not sure we've ever seen more than one "person" sharing a mantle like that. Is it possible that the Mother is just one person, but at Her power level She can manifest separately in each of her mantles without worrying about the fact that she's in two places at once doing two different things?
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Mother Winter is the Holy Spirit
;D
"Sweeter than an infant's marrow"
I hope not.
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My personal thoughts are that the "Fates" is just another mask.
Mother Winter = Sekhmet
Mother Summer = Hathor
Mother (combination of the two Spring & Fall) = Bastt
Hathor was created from Sekhmet (an alter-ego). At one time, Sekhmet (who is said to be older than the gods) was all encompassing (warmth, sun, growth, procreation, healing as well as cold, pestilence, death). When Hathor was created, Sekhmet retained the more pessimistic qualities, while Hathor became the Golden One. Goddess of procreation, dance, growth...The Lady of the Sycamores.
Sekhmet held "The Ankh of Life" (a magical staff). But, then Hathor arrived, and it is logical to assume that this might have turned the "Ankh of Life" into something else (such as the "Ankh of Death"...or Blackstaff)
Sekhmet's Kundalini (internal power) is that of a coiled serpent. When Maeve's power materialized to transfer to Molly, it was in the form of a serpent. Hathor is known as the "Hawk of the Sky." When Lily's power manifested, it formed as an eagle or a large hawk before transferring to Sarissa.
Sekhmet is often depicted as a woman with a lion's head. Bastt is pure feline and can turn into a cat (no it's not Mister...although that would be funny for Harry to learn that Mister is a goddess). It's always pointed out that those of Faerie possess the eyes of a cat, and seem to be drawn to them. We even saw Molly use the lesser faeries fear of cats to protect Harry in Cold Days. In addition to all that, Mother Winter has a nice metalic set of carnivore choppers that are reminiscent of a lion...and she has no problem consuming human flesh (reflective of Sekhmet's punishment of humans over a slight to the gods and Ra). Sekhmet is also known as the "Lady of Pestilence" and her little stash at the cottage sure reflects that as well.
Finally, Winter is balanced by Summer and vice versa. What better way than for Summer to be Winter and vice versa because Mother Winter and Mother Summer are essensially the same person, because they are alter-egos of each other. One was created from the other. Also, there is a symetry in their existence.
OK...no one's biting on this theory. I'll up the stakes.
From Cold Days:
"She has spent too much time with mortals," Mother Winter continued, withered lips peeled back from iron teeth as the sparks from her cleaver's edge leapt higher. "Mortals in their soft, controlled world. Mortals with nothing to do but fight one another, who have forgotten why they should fear the fangs and the claws, the cold and the dark."
The most prominent story of Sekhmet is when Ra sent her to punish mortals for turning away from the Gods. She got a little overzealous. She took her lion form and proceeded to...well...kill and eat mortals most assuredly with fang and claw. She was so effective that Ra had to stop her. That is when the alter-ego Hathor was created from Sekhmet.
Also, from Cold Days:
"Don't be coy, child," Mother Summer sniffed. "What my counterpart knows, I know..."
This, again, reflects that they share a consciousness, just as Sekhment shares her's with her alter-ego Hathor. They are essentially the same consciousness in two different goddesses.
Again, from Cold Days:
Mother Summer's smile appeared for a moment, dazzling me, and then was gone again. "It was not an imbecilic guess," she said. "And, yes, she has been known by such names before. But you've only guessed the name of one of her masks--not our most powerful name."
"Our?" I said. "Wait. I'm confused."
A single name that reflects two parties is well reflected in the Sekhmet/Hathor relationship since Hathor was created out of Sekhmet to hold a portion of the original essence.
And, finally from Cold Days:
"You're telling me that this is why Mab has her power? To...to protect the borders?"
"To protect all of you from the Outsiders, mortal."
"Then why does Titania have hers?" I asked.
"To protect all of you from Mab."
What's remarkable here is that when Sekhmet was sent down to punish mortals (by eating them by fang and claw) it resulted in the creation of Hathor so that she would not kill them all. Essensially, the creation of the alter-ego Hathor protected the still living mortals. This very relationship is reflected in the Winter and Summer armies.
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OK...no one's biting on this theory. I'll up the stakes.
From Cold Days:
The most prominent story of Sekhmet is when Ra sent her to punish mortals for turning away from the Gods. She got a little overzealous. She took her lion form and proceeded to...well...kill and eat mortals most assuredly with fang and claw. She was so effective that Ra had to stop her. That is when the alter-ego Hathor was created from Sekhmet.
Also, from Cold Days:
This, again, reflects that they share a consciousness, just as Sekhment shares her's with her alter-ego Hathor. They are essentially the same consciousness in two different goddesses.
Again, from Cold Days:
A single name that reflects two parties is well reflected in the Sekhmet/Hathor relationship since Hathor was created out of Sekhmet to hold a portion of the original essence.
And, finally from Cold Days:
What's remarkable here is that when Sekhmet was sent down to punish mortals (by eating them by fang and claw) it resulted in the creation of Hathor so that she would not kill them all. Essensially, the creation of the alter-ego Hathor protected the still living mortals. This very relationship is reflected in the Winter and Summer armies.
Think you're half-right: it may be one of their lesser name, but not the big one. Old gods, like Odin, don't have the kind of power the Mothers have.
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It's an possibility, but the way I see it the WG is universe-wide, the Mothers are Earth-centric.
Another possibility which was discussed on the forum: they are Gaia.
Of course, being in charge of the planet everything revolves around is no small amount of authority. ;)
And they may embody more universal concepts than just being earth-centric.
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Think you're half-right: it may be one of their lesser name, but not the big one. Old gods, like Odin, don't have the kind of power the Mothers have.
Here are some of her names (Sekhmet).
She is named Lady of the Place at the Beginning of Time, One Who Was Before the Gods Were, and Mother of All the Gods. That might change your mind.
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I was kind of going with all of the above. I think that they're something older than old, something from which the stories of the gods and goddesses derive, kind of like the Wiccan idea that all gods are one god, that every name is just the face that a culture tried to put on something great an unknowable. The invocation of the Goddess that I've used in ritual, "Lady of a thousand faces, a thousand names, from a thousand places."
Somewhat like Odin - we've talked of mantles, just a way of saying that he is many things to many people.