Thoughts on Harry vs Fix?. I liked it and that Harry was able to improvise while naked and armed with only a nail, but I was kind of dissapointed that even with those things in his favor we didn't get to see Fix do more.
I was a great misdirect having her try to point the finger at Mab. It had me going for a small portion of the book. I figured it out about the same time Harry did.
Anyone else think that Maeve's birthday suit piercings foreshadows the Molly situation?
Molly already has the piercings that Maeve was sporting. Those piercings have been mentioned a handful of time before in Molly's case. I don't recall them being mentioned for Maeve before. Mentioning them now seems to foreshadow Molly's eventual recruitment as the Winter Lady. Maybe its just me, though.
"It was Halloween Dresden. You put on a mask for a time. That's all." He looked directly at me and said, "Many, many mantles are worn-or discarded-on Halloween night, wizard."
"You mean masks?" I asked, frowning.
"Masks, mantles," Kringle said. "What's the difference?"
He winked at me.
And for the briefest fraction of a second, the shadows falling from the tower and the cottage in the gathering morning behind us seemed to flow together. The eye he winked with vanished behind a stripe of shadow and what looked like a wide scar. His face seemed leaner, and for that instant I saw Vadderung's wolfish features lurking inside Kringle's.
Other authors got involved by creating detailed scenarios for pin-up versions of their creations.
After fielding some Harry Dresden-related thoughts from Lee, Jim Butcher sent us a scenario that was far more specific and interesting than we'd suggested...
Anyone else think that Maeve's birthday suit piercings foreshadows the Molly situation?weren't they also the only two who wished him a happy birthday?
I did not know that. Though now that I know it was blessed by Jim, I have to admit Molly is much better looking than she previously was in my head.
I like you. :D
Yeah, the "Mollys" in the calendar are all modeled by the very lovely, beautiful, and talented Priscellie.
I didn't see the calendar at all, but after seeing that picture, I now want to.
Did you do the art work for it? Your comment suggests that to me, but I may be reading it wrong.
The art is by Lee Moyer. I was the model for Lee's reference photos of the various Mollys. You can see a handful here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34193.msg1609604.html#msg1609604)!so, had you read the ending of CD when you modeled, or were you shocked that the story went down that particular trouser leg?
so, had you read the ending of CD when you modeled, or were you shocked that the story went down that particular trouser leg?
Finished yesterday, and THIS makes a lot more senseGrey cloack and sword? That was warden Molly.Now I'm wondering about the reflection of the left(click to show/hide)
I'm a beta. Jim sent us the final chapters toward the end of July, though I guessed Molly's fate months before. Jim suggested the pinup subject to me in mid-August.thank you - I was curious on the timing.
A thought just occurred to me. Where the heck was Lea during all of this? If Santa can make it to Harry's birthday would it stand to reason that his godmother, a power player of winter, would have been there as well? Makes me wonder if she was up to something throughout the book :o
I feel so bad for Lily. Poor girl was dancing on strings pulled by Maeve, right up until she cut them. I'm having a hard time recalling a bigger victim in the series. Not even Susan, who sort of went to Chichen Itza knowing full well it would probably cost her her life to rescue her daughter. Poor Lily just... walked right next to her supposed ally... and never even saw it coming..... gut wrenching....Yeah, no kidding. Abused by the Winter Knight, tossed into the Summer Ladyship to be manipulated by Maeve, and ultimately killed by same. I kind of want the Lily Ghost Story where she goes all medieval on Maeve in the afterlife just so her story has a bit more satisfying ending.
Aurora didn't have to get the same change from Nemesis as Maeve. I can't think of a lie Aurora told, but I also think that Aurora wasn't fully aware of Nemesis. I think it drove her mad. Two theories why:Unlikely. It would spread like a nuclear reaction. Earth would have been gone already. I think there is some limit in the number of hosts a single outsider mind can control. There might be even only one mind behind every infection.
1) Nemesis grows stronger the more hosts he/she/it has.
B) Nemesis uses the least effort necessary to accomplish goals, possibly because the cost of action is somehow high.The risk of detection also grows with more influence on the victim. Using as little influence as needed is the key. Harry saw easily that Sith was infected because of his unusual behaviour. The infected Sith was also not as good a fighter as the original.
I wander how Harry and Molly will handle their mutual winter hormone problem?
We know Harry will do his damnedest not to act on those impulses. But as Winter Lady, Molly is now in a position to compel Harry to do the "deed" (at least when he's under the influence of Winter). Given how she feels it will be interesting to see how she grapples with having that option.Or in other words, "Does Molly value Harry's friendship over being able to have sex with him"?
We know Harry will do his damnedest not to act on those impulses. But as Winter Lady, Molly is now in a position to compel Harry to do the "deed" (at least when he's under the influence of Winter). Given how she feels it will be interesting to see how she grapples with having that option.
It is worst than that. Other than the fact she can now compel Harry, I bet the winter lady mantle will jack up her sexual drive to eleven and with Harry also under the influence of winter knight powers....Maeve was in control of her sexual drive. She used it as a weapon and as a distraction. That might have been because she fed it enough like Lara though. See Larissa's comments to Maeve at the end when they confronted each other.
If anything happens between those two, Murphy will not be happy.I think she might be more understanding than Harry himself.
Not to mention Molly becoming the winter lady effectively eliminates any hope Harry ever escape the winter knight job. Even if he can find a way to remove the knight mantle without dying, he could not just leave Molly alone. It would be Lily all over again.Molly is smarter, more informed and more supported than Lilly. She has a lot of experience in resisting temptations of all sorts like black magic and white court. She has more life experience than Lilly had and she has survived difficult circumstances and great trauma.
It's a mess.Exactly as it should be in the dresdenverse ;D
Seeing how Michael and Charity deal with this is going to be interesting.
The art is by Lee Moyer. I was the model for Lee's reference photos of the various Mollys. You can see a handful here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34193.msg1609604.html#msg1609604)!
What I find pretty stunning is that Harry summoned(or encountered, in the case of the mother summer) all of the senior powers of faerie in a very short period of time. Bro goes hard. Also, mother winter is a stone cold boss. She is most definitely the scariest queen. Butcher has a talent for developing characters like her very richly. I had to chuckle with the whole window soot thing and cleaver business. I wonder what would have happened to the poor boy if the cleaver had hit him...(also what the heck is it made out of? I've always wondered what the fae use instead of steel. I don't think I would put it past the mothers to actually use real steel/iron, though.)
The only thing that is really ticking me off about this book is Harry's freaking messed up daughter issues. It totally jars my image of his character to see him scared to introduce himself to his daughter's life. Yeah, yeah, he has reasons, but I think a big warm fuzzy soul like Harry's is not going to scare away anyone. The girl won't be afraid of big scarred dudes, Michael and Sanya are around all the time. I wish he could have gone to see her before the whole Molly/Maeve thingy went and added a whole layer of distraction. Makes me sad, folks.
That is absolutely believable on many levels. First, Dresden doesn't know her likes or dislikes, her wants or fears. He doesn't have a place in her life and doesn't have a purchase to close in with her other than "I had sex with and killed your mom... wanna play Barbies?" Second, Dresden isn't the most emotionally stable person EVEN WITHOUT the mantle. Add in the mantle, he's pretty much a monster in the making. He has to learn to control that before he can even consider getting involved in her life. Third, Harry feels like he screwed up with Molly, something fierce. He probably doesn't want to "try try again" with a nine-year-old girl. And fourth, she's at Michael's house. Michael got out and Harry feels guilty as hell for what happened to him to get him out. Michael wants out and Harry doesn't want to bring him back in, conscious or unconscious. He screws up the lives of everyone he touches, something fierce (in his eyes, not mine.) Why would bring that on his daughter and back onto Michael?
Small favor chapter 28:
“It is a metaphor,” he said quietly. He had a good voice, mellow and surprisingly deep. “Look at them. Swimming. Eating. Mating. Hunting, killing, fleeing, hiding, each to its nature. All of them so different. So alien to one another. Their world in constant motion, always changing, always threatening, challenging.” He moved one arm, sweeping it in a wider gesture. “They cannot know how fragile it is, or that they are constantly surrounded by beings with the power to destroy their world and kill them all with the twitch of a finger. It is no fault of theirs, of course.” Nicodemus shrugged. “They are simply…limited. Very, very limited. Hello, Dresden.”
Nick almost talking about the outsiders here.
Is that why he took up the dinarian coin in the first place?
Is the outsiders have something to do with lucifer and the fallen angel's rebellion?
Butcher once mention a crazy archangel who interferes and destroys the balance, is this it?
And fifth ... Mr. Butcher needs to sell another book! Just don't take so long this time I mean MY GOD!!! I started reading this series during jury duty almost two years ago. I plowed through it until two weeks before the release of Ghost Story and finally learned a painful new lesson in patience. What I enjoy most about our hero are his strange bedfellows. With Sarrisa in Summer's court and Molly in Winter, what kind of power play will unfold? Demonreach, Harry's new home and responsibility, what will being under the guidance of an anchient spirit, the manual of Winter and the influence of the Well do to him, or rather for him? Mab certainly recognizes the island as Harry's domain, is he somewhat safe from her or her influence? Can she only come if summoned, or does the fact that because the Winter in Harry is really part of Mab and because Harry's part of the island Mab's granted a temporary visa as long as she behaves?
But, I digress, back to the original question regarding Harry's daughter drama, I hope we don't encounter her again until two books from now. Somehow I imagine the Black Denarians would make an ideal set of villains in that story. Maggie, under the Carperter roof, Harry focused on the island and the Fae business, a perfect target for that group. Threaten to give Maggie a coin unless Harry finally take one himself. In the end Maggie gets one anyway, tricked into thinking it will replace a dead mother and an absent father she believes doesn't want her. Harry saves the day by taking the coin back hoping Winter will be able to control it or he can trap it in the Well. Oh the possibilities :) But we're jumping way too far ahead for us to see any immediate resolution to Harry's relationship with his daughter.
Just my opinion and I can't wait to read the real story!
What I find pretty stunning is that Harry summoned(or encountered, in the case of the mother summer) all of the senior powers of faerie in a very short period of time. Bro goes hard. Also, mother winter is a stone cold boss. She is most definitely the scariest queen.
And now confronting Maggie means talking to Michael and Charity about Molly. God help Harry. He's a dead man.
I got the impression reading this book that Mother Summer and Mother Winter were actually the same person, or at least two sides of the same coin. After all, Mab and Titania are sisters, as Aurora and Maeve are cousins. Unless there is some big bad daddy figure we don't know about, the two queens must have the same mother. Considering that the Sidhe courts seem to be all about feminine power, I doubt that their mantles of Queen were passed down from their fathers.I got that vibe too. What I am more interested in is why, if the mothers are two sides of the same coin, they show up in two distinct bodies. Why not just be mother nature? or Gaia or whatever.
The only thing that is really ticking me off about this book is Harry's freaking messed up daughter issues. It totally jars my image of his character to see him scared to introduce himself to his daughter's life.
I agree. I know that a dozen arguments will be made to the contrary but Harry is nothing if not responsible and it's irresponsible not to make contact with Maggie. Of course I am a single father of a daughter so I am hardly objective on the subject.I guess I agreed with the rationale given - he's seen Maggie for all of a couple hours of her life, hours that included him cutting the throat of her mother. If she does remember him, there's a good chance that all that trauma comes rolling back in. And if she doesn't... well, she's still recovering from the trauma of the events in Changes, she's got a loving foster family that she looked quite content to be with.
A few questions. Sorry if it is already answered elsewhere.Most of these questions are unanswered so we can only make theories based on the evidence we have. Our understanding of things changes with every book but most of these changes were hinted in previous books.
1. Is Molly Fei now, or is she mortal still?I would say she is a mortal with a mantle that makes her immortal and probably even fey as long as she wears that mantle.
If she is Fei, what happened to her soul? Is her free wil simply gone?Being able to discard a mantle implies the soul is not gone otherwise a new soul would have to be created when she returns to humanity which is not likely.
Can Molly still have a soulgaze with someone?I think so, yes. It is bound to be a pretty heavy experience.
For that matter, if Mab is mortal once, what happened to her soul? What happened to her free wil?Still there. I do not think a soul can disappear that easily. It changes.
Is a dragon immortal? If so, did Michael carpenter killed the dragon while rescuing Charity?It was not on ferrofax level so maybe it was not immortal, maybe the place or situation or date made it mortal or there might be something special with Michaels sword and angelic support. Your guess is as good as mine.
How did Michael killed the dragon if it is immortal? Is it halloween or is it the sword?Clarify? As far as I know all these questions have no undisputed answers.
Please Clarify. If there a WOJ about this, please point it out to me.
Thank you.
It was not on ferrofax level so maybe it was not immortal, maybe the place or situation or date made it mortal or there might be something special with Michaels sword and angelic support. Your guess is as good as mine.
Most of these questions are unanswered so we can only make theories based on the evidence we have. Our understanding of things changes with every book but most of these changes were hinted in previous books.I would say she is a mortal with a mantle that makes her immortal and probably even fey as long as she wears that mantle.Being able to discard a mantle implies the soul is not gone otherwise a new soul would have to be created when she returns to humanity which is not likely.
It also implies free will is not totally gone. It is bound by the nature of the mantle.
Or maybe she has free will once a year at halloween :D
I think free will is like mortality, humanity and dead. A binary answer is just too simple in some cases.
I think the longer you wear the mantle and the more you give in to it the more you whole being, including your soul, gets aligned with the mantle. Your nature changes slowly.
But we have seen that even with Mab this process is far from completed.
Fae or human? Does it really matter? I think she is Fae as long as she wears the mantle but even that does not have to be true. Or only gets true after a while.
I think so, yes. It is bound to be a pretty heavy experience.Still there. I do not think a soul can disappear that easily. It changes.It was not on ferrofax level so maybe it was not immortal, maybe the place or situation or date made it mortal or there might be something special with Michaels sword and angelic support. Your guess is as good as mine.Clarify? As far as I know all these questions have no undisputed answers.
Choose your position and throw your arguments at anyone who dares to state something else ;D
Thanks for the response. Someone should ask these questions to Mr. Butcher the next chance they get. It is really annoying when an author breaks the rule he makes for himself in his own universe.Breaking the rules is not exactly the word for it. Harry is not a reliable narrator and he thinks rather linear or often even binary even when there are clues that this is too simple a view. If you read the books again you will get some clues that things were not that simple all the time.
Anyway, I would proceed with the assumption that carrying the mantle would ultimately result in a transformation as if being turn into a vampire. Your essential nature change, your free wil is gone, your soul is either departed or confined or changed.
If there is no other WOJ or reliable sources that say otherwise, it is possible that the dragon Michael defeated is still alive. Which means it is possible that Harry might have to face two dragon instead just one Farofax.
But I hope we see how that Svartelf deal happened.
Is there any confirmation that the original merlin is human?The knight job pays in power. Litterally.
The magic he perform to create the demonreach prison seems to be beyond a mortal wizard abilities. Especially if he did it alone as implied in cold days.
Do you think Sarissa becoming the summer lady will improve Titania's mood? I mean, Sarissa is her niece after all. Not her daughter but still blood.
Have anyone got the feeling that Harry is more suited for the summer knight job? I do personally think that summer fire is a much better power than winter ice. Shooting fire bolt from a distance seems to be a far better power than making popcicles.
Speaking of which, The knight job doesn't even pay cash. I was hoping Harry would stop being poor. He still have to take his paycheck from the WC. And is Monster Mobile the name of his mew car?
I do personally think that summer fire is a much better power than winter ice. Shooting fire bolt from a distance seems to be a far better power than making popcicles.
2. Something scary is going on in the white court.Everything points to the fact that she is not infected. Lara is the combination of a monster and a human monster, she is completely in sync with her hunger. But the hunger is not that smart and the human intelligence and mindset is still important. Her goals are that of a human monster. She wants power, influence, control.
Lara trying to get more control sounds a lot like Lord Wraith's modus operandi to me. Could it be that Lord Wraith is infected with Nemesis? It would be very scary if it does. Lara may be under Nemesis's control if not infected outright.
I have a feeling that this is what the Molly POV short story that is coming out will be about.
Everything points to the fact that she is not infected. Lara is the combination of a monster and a human monster, she is completely in sync with her hunger. But the hunger is not that smart and the human intelligence and mindset is still important. Her goals are that of a human monster. She wants power, influence, control.
Not that different from daddy really but daddy was made impotent and all his energy was directed at staying in power. Lara solved that problem and can now direct her attention out wards.
And Lara is smarter than daddy, more adaptable and prepared to use unorthodox methods like hiring efficient people in stead of using mindless thrals.
The government is a logical target. I do not see anything strange about Lara's actions.
There are several reasons why we think Lara is not infected for now and they have all been mentioned earlier in another thread:
The white court coup (nemesis tried to take over and failed)
The ritual in cold days (Lara disrupted one. If she was infected she would have found an excuse not to)
Maeve wanted to infect Justine to get to Lara
And yes, Lara's nature has not changed.
on a different note, considering that Kincaid fails to deliver on the favor Harry asked of him, namely killing Harry, does it mean Harry can still call on the debt?
So far, everything is as you said above, but think about it. Lord Wraith is a very juicy target for Nemesis's infestation. Honestly, I couldn't even think of any other character that is more suited.It would be extremely difficult to reach him and he is not in a position to do anything. Lara would be a better option in both respects.
Think of the disaster and Mayhem it would cause!
Other character that I think Butcher would turn into Nemesis's pawn probably would be: Elaine, one of Murphy's extended family (hopefully her ex husband), Hellen beckit, and Fix the summer knight.Infection is not that easy and we see that Maeve for example preferred manipulation above infection for Fix and Lilly. Until now we have seen only key persons infected not great masses of people.
Peabody though was a very good candidate. Minimal investment with maximum result. But even if he was infected he did not use infection to reach his goals but he used simple mind manipulation.
I didn't put the likes of Thomas, Molly or Murphy because Jim have the tendency not to touch the true main characters and I don't mention any other nameless characters like some unknown members of the white council because like Peabody they are not important until they got some screentime.
Oh yeah, brownnose Rudolf is a good Nemesis's pawn too.Rudolph is just not important enough. Can be handled by blackmail, mind manipulation or whatever.
on a different note, considering that Kincaid fails to deliver on the favor Harry asked of him, namely killing Harry, does it mean Harry can still call on the debt?We have to see how Jim handles this but I do not think so.
It would be extremely difficult to reach him and he is not in a position to do anything. Lara would be a better option in both respects. Infection is not that easy and we see that Maeve for example preferred manipulation above infection for Fix and Lilly. Until now we have seen only key persons infected not great masses of people.
Murphy's extended family for example is not important enough to expend the effort. Maeve had more than enough chances to infect Lilly and Fix but stil didn't do it. Hellen Beckit might be interesting to get to Marcone but even that is far less interesting than Lara.
Infecting Elaine is not more interesting than any talent in the white council of her level. Better take a higher level like Cowl if you need a free agent.
Peabody though was a very good candidate. Minimal investment with maximum result. But even if he was infected he did not use infection to reach his goals but he used simple mind manipulation.Rudolph is just not important enough. Can be handled by blackmail, mind manipulation or whatever.We have to see how Jim handles this but I do not think so.
Lord Wraith is a puppet right now, but in the eyes of the white court, especially the other two great houses, the one that calls the shot is still Papa Wraith. If suddenly Lara's mind whammy fails to control Papa dearest thanks to the infestation, What do you think would happen?From what we've seen, the infection can let you act against your nature--there's no indication that it gives you any kind of boost aside from that, and if Cat Sith is any indication, it might well do the opposite. There's nothing to indicate that the infection can undo something like a death curse. Hell, there's no indication that the infection can stop a regular spell.
Nemesis infestation could make Maeve tell lies. What if the infestation could restore Papa Wraith's feeding powers? I am quite sure that deep down inside Lord Wraith wants revenge very very badly. He would be a willing even eager vessel and the problem of reaching him is not insurmountable. Taking Lord Wraith would gave Nemesis a whole vampire court under it's command, I think it is worth it for Nemesis.
I have always figured that Papa Raith was one of the first infected.I do not think he was. An infected papa Raith would have taken steps to ensure the white court stayed in infected hands even after his fall which could happen any moment. The outsider controlling him would have taken care of that. Arranging Lara's infection decades before she took over was a logical thing to do. Or it would have used the white court in some suicidal action to support the red court or something like that.
When Sith asked what Harry' need to facilitates his job, Harry only asked a way to Chicago and a car. Had he asked 10.000 U.S. Dollars, an active credit card with no limit, a .44 revolver, a passable american ID and a wooden staff, do you think sith will provide it? What else do you think Harry could asked at the time?and ask very nicely, or he'd get 10 thousand dollars from, say, a retiree's bank account, Johnny Marcone's credit card, an unloaded relic of a gun, ID for Marcone (again) and a music staff made of wood.
and ask very nicely, or he'd get 10 thousand dollars from, say, a retiree's bank account, Johnny Marcone's credit card, an unloaded relic of a gun, ID for Marcone (again) and a music staff made of wood.
and ask very nicely, or he'd get 10 thousand dollars from, say, a retiree's bank account, Johnny Marcone's credit card, an unloaded relic of a gun, ID for Marcone (again) and a music staff made of wood.LOL consider coca=cola spewed all over my laptop. thanks!
Oh goodness I hope not. I don't think I could handle reading about Molly getting vajazzled.
Popping into this thread to laugh endlessly over this mental image, in both amusement and horror.
4. Maeve begging for her mother interest. I mean OK it would be cool - but she was possesed by Nemesis. I mean when Cat Sith take hit it changes him, and he lost most of his personal interests. This Maeve was too-Maevish.Which is logical. The outsider possession works much like normal mind magic the way peabody and molly use it. You build on what you have and apply the smallest change needed to get the results you want to achieve. Nemesis used the mommy issues Maeve had to get the ally she got so the Maeve we met was a full bag of mommy issues.
1. I have bit problem with whole Mantle-Dying thing. I mean in SK we learned (IIRC) from Mothers that when Knight or Queen dies his/her mantle goes to the closest Court Vessel. But on Demonreach both Molly and Sarissa were Winter Vessels. Why then Lily mantle goes to her? Shouldn't it find some Summer Vessel? I mean there were some Summer Sidhe with Lily, some of them has to be a girl, after all.Lilly was a winter changeling if I remember correctly. The first thing needed is the ability to handle power.
2. Molly as a Vessel. I mean hanging with Lea was enough to turn her into one? I thought that you have to be at least changeling?Mab, The erlking, Kringle, ...
3. Free will and soul. I suppose that Molly will remain mortal at least for some time. Lily also remain changeling after becoming a Lady, and she make her Choice some time later (because in SmF Dresden treats her as a full Sidhe). So there are still some interesting possibilities.Becoming Sidhe does not imply you lose your soul immediately. It just opens a lot of new possibilities for it.
4. Why Mab didn't used her force to force Maeve to take medicine. I mean put two, or three or fifteen iron bullets in Sidhe knees and she shouldn't have much choice to do.Mab needed Maeves cooperation to cure her. Lea wnted to be cured because she was ashamed to be possessed. Maeve did not have that motivation.
5. Parasite thing. If I remember correctly Dresden migraines started in Turn Coat. So i doubt somehow it was just remains of Lash. I suppose it was something else. Maybe even something knew. Therefore I believe that Lash was some of spirits Dresden meets in GS, and Lasciel was Fallen that push Dresden to his suicide.Krinngle and Odin are just the same person with two mantles, masks
6. Did Kringle kills Odin and took his mantle? Or maybe other way? Or maybe they were always two faces of the same being? Or maybe he was just giving Dresden more of well deserved mindfuck.
9. What was Morgana deal with Outsiders? Or maybe athame was somehow infected by Cowl and Morgana has nothing to do with it?I do not think Morgana had anything to do with the outsider taint on the athame except that she was the reason the athame was so powerful and desirable which made it the ideal tool for Cowl.
10. So I think we can assume that Old Gods or Old Ones that are fought in Oblivion Wars are not Outsiders. Old Ones are just powerful spirits that needs human knowledge to keep stuck into mortal world. Bob called them "primal spiritual beings", so I assume they are creatures of Nevernever, and Oblivion is also place/state in NN. Outsiders are something different. Like those sad thing from first Pratchett novels.You can kill the bearer of the mantle under certain circumstances but the mantle itself is not killed. A spiritual being is more like a mantle without a bearer. People like Odin and Mab still have bodies.
11. What is difference between Immortal and Primal Spiritual Being? I assume that because PSB cannot be killed, only dispersed and forgotten that it's true. But Immortal can be killed - only it's extremely hard to do. So I assume Immortal technically is term for Secondary Spiritual Being. Someone who like Sidhe or at least some gods were human beings one upon a time, and ascend to become powerful spirits. (Maybe mantles are PSB, because they cannot be destroyed even on Halloween).
Lilly was a winter changeling if I remember correctly. The first thing needed is the ability to handle power.
As far as we know now they all started as human. Becoming Fae is one of those things humans can do under the right circumstances.
Becoming Sidhe does not imply you lose your soul immediately. It just opens a lot of new possibilities for it.
Mab needed Maeves cooperation to cure her. Lea wnted to be cured because she was ashamed to be possessed. Maeve did not have that motivation
Krinngle and Odin are just the same person with two mantles, masks
Aye. But Lily was Summer Knight. So she definitely was a Summer Vessel in moment of Aurora death.Harry is a linear thinker. You either have a soul or you don't. But everything points to the fact that it is not that simple. It takes time to lose your soul. Even Mab does have some small bits left.
Indeed. I just thought that those conditions would be more severe.
I have to check. I remember some fragment about changelings that they can go mortal, remain between or lose their souls and turn full Sidhe.
Or - she needs working Winter Lady. And she needed her soon. If Maeve was much further in He Who Walks Between hands, it would take probably few years maybe decades to cure her. And all those time mantle of Lady would be useless.I don't think so. Mab really wanted to cure Maeve but it just was not possible without her cooperation.
It makes sense - if Mab just want to stop Maeve she could like rip her into pieces and it would take long, long time for Maeve to recover. But it would left Winter without Lady.
So even if Maeve would want to cure, Mab didn't have enough time for it. More tragic for Mab I suppose.
Harry is a linear thinker. You either have a soul or you don't. But everything points to the fact that it is not that simple. It takes time to lose your soul. Even Mab does have some small bits left.
I don't think so. Mab really wanted to cure Maeve but it just was not possible without her cooperation.
In regard to Molly being with Lea making her a vessel, there's a bit where, right after Harry meets with the Mothers, he takes a shower and specifically notes that he's doing it because that kind of interaction with a Fae leaves a mark on you that he wants to ground out and wash off with the shower. It's likely Molly didn't know to take that precaution.
I suppose if shower was enough to take it down, then the sunrise would be enough as well. Even if Molly didn't take shower few months after Harry's death. I suppose its rather master-scholar relationship.Remember in GS, Murphy urged Molly to stay at her house for a meal, "a shower"... Surrendering hygiene can expose you to lots of things - who knew it could help turn you into a vessel of Winter?
3. He Who Walked Before. I mean Walkers should be three most powerful Outsiders with access to Nevernever and Mortal World. I'm not impressed.
If Mab wants Harry’s creativity, his insights, his best efforts, logically, she’s got it. All she has to do is order him to use his full abilities and he’s bound to. That’s what Harry agreed to. Which is why it’s absurd to me for Harry to be anything more than Mab’s puppet whenever she wants anything. In this way, yes, I think Butcher has written himself into a corner in the way he’s presented things. The only way to "get out" is to take shortcuts with the thematic content or even just the intellectual consistency of the books.
I don't believe that Harry has lost his Free Will. That's the whole point of people having Free Will, it can't be taken from us. Our choices might truly and well suck, but there are still choices. Someone like Mab wants Harry to believe that she's taken his Will to choose, because that's part of the game, part of the way to break people down.
I don't think Jim's painted himself into a corner, I think Jim has Harry exactly where he wants him, exactly where he was meant to be. I think it's another test for Harry. It's another cornerstone along the road to the BAT. Harry has already resisted the temptations of one of the Fallen. This is the next step in that journey. I think Jim wants to show us it's not the magic, the power or any Mantle that makes Harry special and makes him the guy to stop the mess the world is spiraling into. It's what Harry has inside him that makes him special. Harry the guy, not Harry the wizard.
See, here's the problem with this situation: If you have free will, you also have the power to surrender it, by agreement or simply by painting yourself into a corner with your own actions. That's what Harry has done. He didn't add in any stipulations or provisos when he pledged himself to Mab. Thus, again, I have to think that while Mab could choose not to dictate everything to Harry, she could absolutely order him to do anything with his full effort and he would absolutely use every resource at his disposal to do what she wished. She doesn't have to dictate every decision. He has no leverage. Harry willingly, deliberately, and pretty much as knowingly as any mortal can, gave up his prerogative to make those calls for himself, and in this universe you can do that and such an agreement will supposedly be enforced. Are you telling me he isn't bound by that agreement? If so, as I said before, the whole system of oaths and consequences governing so much of the supernatural world loses integrity and meaning and becomes more or less arbitrary. It's a cop out, trying to shield Harry in particular from the consequences of major blunders by authorial fiat, and it's no less a thematic issue from the book because a supposedly angelic character tries to make it out as anything to the contrary.
Now, I agree that this is no minor issue and would have have very problematic ramifications for earlier books. That's why I think the story jumped the shark when Harry made that agreement with Mab and when Butcher allowed the vow to Mab to be that all-encompassing. But I don't think we can just overlook it because we don't like the impact taking this problem seriously would have.
Molly was incredibly foolish. And I can't believe nobody ever seems to have warned her that Winter might take an interest in her or what the consequences might be of accepting their help. But she's biffed it big time now, and now I have the hardest taking any possible redemption for her seriously because she'd already biffed it big time and been given a second chance and she totally and completely and knowingly blew it, in a worse way even than she did the first time in ignorance. And Harry and the example he set and his associations with Winter seems to have had a great deal to do with all that. It doesn't appear that he ever gave her the kind of education in steering clear of Faerie entrapment she needed. And I liked her. More to the point, I love her family and hate what this has to do to them. That's why I hate that Butcher's done this to her and am tempted to stop reading if this is what he's going to do not just to her, but to her family. I read for entertainment, not to torture myself or watch characters I'm attached to be tortured.
Lany79 - People can talk about free will, but it's a funny thing. We have all the options we could ask for so long as we steer clear of the whirlpools, but once we choose to get too close, it's funny how how our options become extremely limited or just plain disappear. That's one of the sobering realities of free will: that we can and, indeed, must be able to do things we can't take back and that will have the worst consequences later on.
Harry willingly, deliberately, and pretty much as knowingly as any mortal can, gave up his prerogative to make those calls for himself, and in this universe you can do that and such an agreement will supposedly be enforced. It's a cop out, trying to shield Harry in particular from the consequences of major blunders by authorial fiat, and it's no less a thematic issue from the book because a supposedly angelic character tries to make it out as anything to the contrary.
Now, I agree that this is no minor issue and would have have very problematic ramifications for earlier books. That's why I think the story jumped the shark when Harry made that agreement with Mab and when Butcher allowed the vow to Mab to be that all-encompassing. But I don't think we can just overlook it because we don't like the impact taking this problem seriously would have.
Molly was incredibly foolish. And I can't believe nobody ever seems to have warned her that Winter might take an interest in her or what the consequences might be of accepting their help. And Harry and the example he set and his associations with Winter seems to have had a great deal to do with all that. It doesn't appear that he ever gave her the kind of education in steering clear of Faerie entrapment she needed. And I liked her. More to the point, I love her family and hate what this has to do to them. That's why I hate that Butcher's done this to her and am tempted to stop reading if this is what he's going to do not just to her, but to her family. I read for entertainment, not to torture myself or watch characters I'm attached to be tortured.
Lany79 - People can talk about free will, but it's a funny thing. We have all the options we could ask for so long as we steer clear of the whirlpools, but once we choose to get too close, it's funny how how our options become extremely limited or just plain disappear. That's one of the sobering realities of free will: that we can and, indeed, must be able to do things we can't take back and that will have the worst consequences later on.
More to the point, I love her family and hate what this has to do to them. That's why I hate that Butcher's done this to her and am tempted to stop reading if this is what he's going to do not just to her, but to her family. I read for entertainment, not to torture myself or watch characters I'm attached to be tortured.
And I don't mind at all, but this book seemed to make way more use of the f-word than the others did. I mean, you might hear it every once and a while before, but I lost track of how many times it came up in this book.
See, here's the problem with this situation: If you have free will, you also have the power to surrender it, by agreement or simply by painting yourself into a corner with your own actions.