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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: MonkofLords on September 07, 2012, 12:18:16 AM
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I have a player who is interested in being a focused practitioner, but he asked me, given what he read in the text, what would give that edge in their field?
I just notice that in the books, Mortimer can do things that other Wizards just can't do with Ghosts. This particular player is playing a (Plant) - Mancer, and I was trying to think of something to represent that innate sort of natural control over their element that a full blown Wizard may not be able to replicate easily.
I could be reading too far into this, but that's just what I got out of the books.
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Custom stunts or house rules. And a build that is generally more focused on their one kind of magic.
Some custom stunts adding to making declarations for thaumaturgy (or about their magic for evocation), or letting them take an extra two consequences for thaumaturgy/evocation in their one area can give them a much higher power level than a wizard when it comes to just that.
You could also allow focus practitioners to take specializations. That would also help as well.
But some sample builds, at refresh 8.
Kinetomancer: Guy shoots blasts of force and such.
High Concept: Kinetomancer for Hire
Skills: Discipline 5, Conviction 5, Lore
Powers: Channeling (Spirit), Custom stunt for 2 extra mental consequences, refinement*4
Items: Staff: Offensive Control+5 Ring of Power: Offensive Power+2, Enchanted Item 7 shift block, 5 uses per session.
Other Notes: This guy will get compelled whenever he wants to create light, lay out fear on a group of vamps, or veil up. This provides fate points further powering his magic.
Summary: This can be further used to increase his magical ability. A wizard who tried to do something similar might be able to reach the same level of control, but his power would be less, and he would have two less shots.
Transformer:
High Concept: Robot in disguise Witch Lord
Powers and Stunts: Ritual: Transformation and Disruption. Custom Stunt=+2 for lore declarations for transformation/disruption. Custom Stunt for extra consequences for transformation and disruption*4=8 extra mild consequences,
Skills: Lore 5, Discipline 5
Items: Control+2 Complexity+2
Summary: She blows any wizard out of the water when transforming something. (Which includes oh so much of thaumaturgy.) She has 9 consequences to the wizards 1. She would be able to cast a 25 shift ritual basically every other scene. She could for example place half a dozen aspects on herself to prepare for combat. Or drop a weapon grades entropy curse on a pesky vampire. Or obliterate said vamps mind. The wizard OTOH manages at about 9 shift spells without declarations. Something she'll be better at as well.
Basically a focused practitioner can have an extra 5 refresh to spend on their abilities when compared to a wizard. It can allow them to be more competent in their one area.
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Unusual Powers. Like a plant-related Supernatural Sense, or Echoes Of The Tree.
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Unusual Powers. Like a plant-related Supernatural Sense, or Echoes Of The Tree.
Agreed, putting little twists on already existing powers is a fairly easy way to go about it.
Take the Power Wizard senses. Modify the concept into something say called Rooted Senses. The character could reach out to nearby plants, which in turn reach out to plants near them, which reach out to more plants, repeat, ect. Essentially allowing you to cast a sensory web that spans as wide as the plants. It's totally useless if their aren't a lot of plants in the immediate surroundings, but under the right circumstances you could detect things much MUCH farther away than a normal wizard could.
Or a power that when in direct sunlight you can "store" that energy to use later.
I'll leave it to anyone who cares to come up with how either of those would work mechanically haha. xD
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This particular player is playing a (Plant) - Mancer
Don't you mean Chloromancer? ;)
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Don't you mean Chloromancer? ;)
Well...he's been playing with a variety of names, so I played it safe. Thanks for the help though. Another player went the route of Ferromancer...technically all metal, but Mettallomancer sounds funny.
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Sponsored Magic is a great way to do this. For the cost of evocation and channeling, you get some extra side benefits (often a bonus AND thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed). Based off of Kemmlerian Necromancy is an example of this. Maybe your "sponsor" is the desires of nature and plants (see the recent Swamp Thing comics for cool ways this can play out).
Since you're basically focusing on one element, it's incredibly easy to have all of your focus items synergize. These ignore the pyramid and are only limited by slots available and Lore.
Powers like "Plant Speaker" or a Supernatural Sense can also be useful. They show complete mastery of certain "spells" so that using them doesn't cost any stress (eg effort) at all.
We also use this option for Channeling/Sponsored magic:
Option:
Specialist [-0]: You may only be able to do one thing, but you do it very well. Instead of relying on items to help you focus your spell energies, you’ve simply worked on mastering the element you channel. The focus item slots from this item may be spent to grant a bonus to your channeling, without requiring an item. This does not stack with the bonus from specializations, if you later take evocation. Otherwise, this functions exactly like the bonus from focus items (meaning you must choose between offense or defense and power or control, and no bonus may exceed your Lore). Choosing this option means that you cannot create permanent enchanted items, although you may still brew potions if you also have the Ritual power.
Basically, you can get the bonus without needing to be wielding an item (which fits some flavor better). Because you cannot be disarmed or deprived of this bonus, like you could with a focus item, you give up permanent enchanted items (and the extra spells/cheaper effects which can result from them). I still allow potions because I find them to be the way thaumaturgy works best during a session.
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Well...he's been playing with a variety of names, so I played it safe. Thanks for the help though. Another player went the route of Ferromancer...technically all metal, but Mettallomancer sounds funny.
You could go with Allomancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allomancer)...
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Sponsored Magic is a great way to do this.
That reminds me...
SUPERIOR PYROMANCY [-4]
Description: The White Council looks down on Focused Practitioners, but specialization has its merits. Through obsessive devotion to one element, it is possible to acquire abilities that a generalist cannot match.
Sponsor: This magic is self-sponsored.
Agenda: As self-sponsored magic, this power lacks an agenda.
Evocation: Superior Pyromancy may be used to cast fire evocations.
Thaumaturgy: Superior Pyromancy may be used to cast rituals that create, make use of, or control fire in some way.
Evothaum: Any ritual that can be cast with Superior Pyromancy may be cast with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: A character with Superior Pyromancy can use his fire power bonus in place of his complexity bonus for rituals that can be cast with Superior Pyromancy.
Note: Powers similar to this one could exist for elements other than fire.
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A character with just Superior Pyromancy would have no 'fire power bonus' (nor would they have access to such a bonus), so that Extra Benefit wouldn't be of much use.
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It is sponsored magic, so it grants 4 focus item slots.
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If it's not clear, it does include offensive and defensive bonuses.
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Focus items grant either offensive or defensive power bonuses, but not straight power bonuses.
It would actually be substantially more useful if it allowed complexity bonuses to be used in place of power bonuses, as those aren't divided.
If it's not clear, it does include offensive and defensive bonuses.
It could use a language tweak, then, at the least.
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It would actually be substantially more useful if it allowed complexity bonuses to be used in place of power bonuses, as those aren't divided.
I like the way it is. It encourages pyromancers to have massive power bonuses, which is totally appropriate.
It could use a language tweak, then, at the least.
Yeah, sure.
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Is that power intended to be taken along with channeling/ritual? Or as a stand alone replacement? As the latter it seems kind of OP for just -4. You're basically getting everything channeling/ritual gives, a sponsor free sponsor, the option of internalized bonuses, and evothaum for the same price as taking channeling and ritual.
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That is the same as any sponsored magic. Every sponsored magic gives channeling (thing that makes sense for the sponsor), ritual (thing that makes sense for the sponsor), some amount of evothaum, and some random other bonus (getting to use your power bonus is in line with what we see from Kemlerian necromancy).
The only difference is the internal sponsor, but as a GM i would not allow you to take debt to yourself (or at least impose a very low credit limit) and only let you use it when I/you had a good idea for the resulting debt compel.
The way I look at it Sponsored Magic was intended to be strait better than Channeling + Ritual, but more narrow than evocation + thaumaturgy. When you have self sponsored magics this gets a bit trickier (since you no longer have the agenda rider), but for balance purposes it is not that far out of line.
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Every sponsored magic gives [...] some amount of evothaum,
This is not true. Evothaum is one option that is often included in Sponsored Magic, but it is far from ubiquitous.
When you have self sponsored magics this gets a bit trickier (since you no longer have the agenda rider), but for balance purposes it is not that far out of line.
Moreover, the Agenda being wholly, solely, and exclusively narrative, it has no meaningful bearing on mechanical balance.
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Is that power intended to be taken along with channeling/ritual? Or as a stand alone replacement? As the latter it seems kind of OP for just -4. You're basically getting everything channeling/ritual gives, a sponsor free sponsor, the option of internalized bonuses, and evothaum for the same price as taking channeling and ritual.
It's the latter.
Sponsored Magic > Channeling + Ritual. No point denying it or dancing around the fact. Pretty much all sponsors grant Channeling, Ritual, and 2 Refresh or so of extra stuff.
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2 refresh powers almost always provide more benefit than two 1 refresh powers. It makes sense that a 4 refresh power would provide more benefit than two 2 refresh powers.
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Indeed.
Though it is a bit lousy that the game presents Channelling + Ritual as a viable option while making something better available.
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Indeed.
Though it is a bit lousy that the game presents Channelling + Ritual as a viable option while making something better available.
How broken would it be if you made it so that if you had channeling+ritual with the same element (or theme) you'd get a 1 Refinement free? This could only be used on focus item slots, due to the nature of Refinement with Focused Practitioners, but I think it'd be a viable house rule.
Although I don't know that it would be significantly (2 refresh) worse than Evocation/Thaumaturgy at that point. There's a big difference between Ritual and Thaumaturgy, but Channeling with 2 extra focus items worth of bonuses and Evocation basically mean you're just getting 2 other elements (which, if you specialize significantly in one you'll try and avoid using anyway).
Instead, I'd probably be okay with granting Evothaum automatically if you took Ritual+Channeling with the same element/theme. This would make it only slightly less good than sponsored magic (in that you don't get the common bonus).
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Figuring out package discounts:
Ritual and Channeling are X refresh base + 1 refresh of foci - (X-1) package discount
Thaumaturgy and Evocation are Y refresh base + 1 refresh of foci + 0.5 refresh of specialization - (Y-1.5) package discount
Base Sponsored Magic is Ritual plus Channeling with 0.5 refresh of specialization and Z refresh of sponsor debt vs sponsor agenda, so it's package discount is at least Z+2X-1.5
Y is probably X+1, and I'm going to call Channeling without foci a 1.5 refresh power, so:
Cost Value
1 1
2 2.5
3 4
4 5.5+Z
If the value of sponsor debt is zero, it works out, for thematic packages, as (Cost-1)*0.5 in bonus 1 refresh powers (mostly Refinement: Foci or Refinement: Specialization, in the case of spellcasting) Never bothered to see if this works out for non spell casting packages, but it feels like a good approximation.
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How broken would it be if you made it so that if you had channeling+ritual with the same element (or theme) you'd get a 1 Refinement free?
Not very. Evocation and Thaumaturgy still have free specializations, so they'd be competitive.
I don't think trying to break down package discounts like that will work very well. The math involved in balancing a game system is so complex that one is forced to use holistic gut-instinct judgements rather often.
I mean, it starts out easy enough. But once you start tracking the interactions between abilities and the expected differences in playstyle things get insanely complex.
Anyhoo, I owe y'all a reworded Superior Pyromancy. Here it is:
SUPERIOR PYROMANCY [-4]
Description: The White Council looks down on Focused Practitioners, but specialization has its merits. Through obsessive devotion to one element, it is possible to acquire abilities that a generalist cannot match.
Sponsor: This magic is self-sponsored.
Agenda: As self-sponsored magic, this power lacks an agenda.
Evocation: Superior Pyromancy may be used to cast fire evocations.
Thaumaturgy: Superior Pyromancy may be used to cast rituals that create, make use of, or control fire in some way.
Evothaum: Any ritual that can be cast with Superior Pyromancy may be cast with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: A character with Superior Pyromancy can use his offensive or defensive fire power bonus in place of his complexity bonus for rituals that can be cast with Superior Pyromancy.
Note: Powers similar to this one could exist for elements other than fire.
If this passes muster I'll update the list.
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I would still have an agenda for "superior pyromancy". Similar to Kemmlerian necromancy, pyromancy would be burning, purification, and flow of entropy or heat. General mucking around with fire. This would be most notable when taking sponsor debt, or when justifying compels against the pyromancer.
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Good point, re agenda, any suggestions for "Superior Biomancy" as a 'self' Sponsored Magic? (for a Thaumaturgist that currently has True Shapeshifting through an IOP but needs a growth patch for when he works of the IOP crutch).
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Good point, re agenda, any suggestions for "Superior Biomancy" as a 'self' Sponsored Magic? (for a Thaumaturgist that currently has True Shapeshifting through an IOP but needs a growth patch for when he works of the IOP crutch).
The search for biological 'perfection', even if it's emergence has to be magically assisted/induced?
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Stats for Superior Biomancy are on the master list. Dunno whether they'll fit your vision of Superior Biomancy, but they're probably worth a look.
It's definitely appropriate to take real True Shapeshifting alongside Superior Biomancy. That's what Listens-to-Wind has, and Superior Biomancy was intended to synergize with True Shapeshifting.
I'd rather avoid agendas, because I see the various Superior X Powers as convenient ways to represent normal spellcasting taken to another level. They're only Sponsored Magic because the mechanics fit.
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Rewording seems to have been accepted. Editing master list now.
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Psychomancy, or object/area reading based on contact with plants would be a possibility. Being able to sense the past through a plant would also provide some vivid flavor text for the GM. Imagining trying to sort out information through the solid presence of a hundreds year old oak to the riot of thousands of voices from a field of short lived grass blades.
Maybe their magic is not affected negatively by water, or is even enhanced by it. Like the healing tubs from Alera.
Enhanced Entropomancy in regards to wearing down man made structures, like a root of a tiny plant forming a crack in the sidewalk.
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Regarding the balance of Sponsored Magic relative to Channeling + Ritual: I think that there seems to be a common tendency to ignore the fact that Sponsored Magic is intended to be on a leash that is not entirely under the control of the character. Casting a particular spell via Channeling has a predicatable effect every time. You might fail your roll, you might be blocked, etc, but it's just the character vs. the mechanics. If you use Unseelie Magic, however, it could fail because it goes against Winter's interests ... or because Winter simply isn't interested in the spell you are trying to cast. Or because you unknowingly annoyed the Queen last century and she wanted to make you look silly. This is touched on briefly in the power writeup on YS183 ("Invariably, these sources of power have some kind of agenda of their own"), and mentioned again on YS287 ("the spell you’re casting must align with the agenda of the sponsor"), and descussed in more detail on YS289.
If your GM ignores this inherent limitation in Sponsored Magic then of course it's going to be superior to the alternative, every time. Or if you have a pushover sponsor whose agenda basically boils down to "whatever the caster wants". Or if you build a custom power that is modeled off Sponsored Magic (as opposed to the standard magics + additional refresh for advantages), but with no agenda at all.
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Such issues are best handled through Compels. Otherwise it's not possible to put a fair cost on Sponsored Magic.
Grevane will never suffer from the limitations on Kemmlerian Necromancy. So if they're intended to restrict the Power, then that Power is undercosted for him.
Meanwhile, Harry would suffer from the limitations on Kemmlerian Necromancy constantly. So if they're intended to restrict the Power, then that Power is overcosted for him.
(This is basically the standard "you can't predict how often this will matter" balance issue everything has, but it's an extremely bad case of that issue.)
Fortunately, you can make that problem disappear entirely by treating the limitations on Sponsored Magics as Compels.
And it doesn't even make Sponsored Magic broken. Channeling and Ritual are pretty bad anyway compared to Evocation and Thaumaturgy. It's the bulk discount at work.