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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: YPU on July 10, 2012, 06:42:00 PM
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One of my players had the idea to play a vigilante who has made a deal with a demon to boost his luck. Tough I could see this being a one dimensional character I know the player is better then that.
In any case I thought that doing a simple switch with the true believer powers would do but upon re reading them I have to say I find this less perfect then I aspect. Partially because I am not sure if conviction is really the right skill to use for a devil blessed man.
Mainly what I want the player be able to do is create prayers alla true believer, the player clearly stated he would like to make these self focused, a egocentric prayer is not a good one after all, but it could be twisted for good no doubt.
Anyhow I like the idea and I feel I have a solid start however I find it hard to say exactly what power this player should have.
On another note, I considered that perhaps it would be best to make this a changeling type of deal, it seems like down-below would always be willing to grant power in return for a piece of your soul (fate refresh) Naturally the power would work fine if they end up causing some mayhem, not so much if they would interupt something down=below has its hands in (fallen, for instance)
Any suggestions on how best to write this one up?
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One of my players had the idea to play a vigilante who has made a deal with a demon to boost his luck.
Just use the sponsor debt mechanics from sponsored magic. The character doesn't get any sort of magic or anything from it (and so it should cost far less), but you keep the idea of being able to ask the Dark Powers for fate points (ie, luck) when you need them in exchange for debt to be repaid later.
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You might want to set a time limited on the deal. Traditionally those types of deals have 7 years or 1 year - after which the devil takes his due.
Or have a "If X happens then payment is due" clause - with X being something that is almost certainly not going to happen, but suddenly it's almost happening all the time. For example, he gains all sorts of social powers but if he sleeps with his sister (including half sisters) the payment is due. He signs off (in his background) knowing that even if he ever wanted to his sister wouldn't be up for something like that. Later he discovers that he is adopted - and has no idea if he has a half sister (or sisters) or who she might be.
Which leads to the other part of the deal - the exit clause. One tradition holds that there's always an exit clause (but it's usually something that's practically impossible) while other stories hold that if return all the benefits then you can get out of the deal (which usually leaves you penniless and starving - but at least you own your own soul). Other stories have involved turning to the guy upstairs - on the theory that He was promised your soul at baptism and if you repent it goes back to him.
I can see a character type similar to a changeling - call it the "Granted Power" or "Borrowing Power" Template. The character has X powers because of the deal but can (under the right circumstances) renounce those powers (regaining his spent refresh). It could be fun to play a "doomed if I can't escape the deal, powerless if I do" type character...
But I'm not sure if I'd want to play him after the choice.
Richard
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Just use the sponsor debt mechanics from sponsored magic. The character doesn't get any sort of magic or anything from it (and so it should cost far less), but you keep the idea of being able to ask the Dark Powers for fate points (ie, luck) when you need them in exchange for debt to be repaid later.
Sounds like that would work, it really works for the idea of getting a little subtle boost with a very . I would still like incorporate the prayer mechanism, the idea of placing a aspect on the campaign itself I really like. Perhaps the borrowed point and selfish prayer ability as a -2 power? Any suggestions on this.
Richard, I like the idea's you bring up. However the player was looking more for a subtle little extra rather then a big power, at least to start with. Actual sponsored magic he thought of as possible in the future but not yet. Naturally I might throw him in a situation where that strength or toughness ability starts to look tempting. Anyhow I feel the prayer mechanic and borrowed fate points are too vague effects to work with your suggestions. But I do like them, so I will take a look at incorporating them. Perhaps lay down the words of his contract together during character creation.
I think my player is aware his character is in a downward spiral and probably going to crash before he can escape it. I think he likes the tragic hero.
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Sounds like that would work, it really works for the idea of getting a little subtle boost with a very . I would still like incorporate the prayer mechanism, the idea of placing a aspect on the campaign itself I really like. Perhaps the borrowed point and selfish prayer ability as a -2 power? Any suggestions on this.
I would call that, at most, a -0 power.
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Don't know if this really is what you're looking for, but I'll throw it out anyway.
First we start with the sponsor debt mechanics (ie, what admiralducksauce suggested). This gives you a solid core for asking for little bits of help -- for a price.
But take it a step further. Allow the character to make extensive use of the "Temporary Powers" sidebar on YS92, but using debt rather than Fate points. Work with the player to make a list of powers that are appropriate to borrow from a demon. This should certainly include the physical powers (Strength/Toughness/etc), and might well include a number of others (Cloak of Darkness, Hellfire, and more). Basically, for a future favor (or favors), the character can access -- for a scene -- as many of these powers as he's willing to pay the price for.
And I'd consider adding just one more small caveat, if you think the player would be cool with it. Pick a reasonable number in advance (perhaps trouble comes in threes?). Once the character has "borrowed" a particular power that many times, it sticks. He adds it to his character sheet permanently, reducing refresh and losing Fate points as though he'd just bought the power. He's just lost a piece of his soul, and become a little more like the demon he's dealt with.
In effect, the result would be a somewhat Changeling-esque character, who struggles between the power on the offer and the desire to retain his soul. Of course, if his refresh reaches zero, the Choice is made.
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One thing I'd be tempted to add to Becq's list - have him take on visible demonic traits as he takes on powers. Just as temporary, but scaly skin to go with that toughness or vertically slit pupils with cloak of darkness would be fun.
I think I'd make taking the powers permanently optional though. Unless you only plan a sort campaign at least. Else the character's concept and possibly playability change quickly and fairly drastically.
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These are pretty cool ideas. :-)
YPU, were you thinking that the effects of this ability should last one scene or longer?
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Why not just use demonic co-pilot?
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Why not just use demonic co-pilot?
I don't know about any of you guys, but I wouldn't wish that shitty power on my worst enemy. You get a +1 to actions that are aligned with your copilot, after which you stand a very good chance of taking mental stress and eventually taking yourself out? I honestly can't think of any situation where Demonic Co-Pilot is better than the Sponsor mechanics.
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I don't know about any of you guys, but I wouldn't wish that shitty power on my worst enemy. You get a +1 to actions that are aligned with your copilot, after which you stand a very good chance of taking mental stress and eventually taking yourself out? I honestly can't think of any situation where Demonic Co-Pilot is better than the Sponsor mechanics.
;D
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If I could elaborate a little further: on paper, Demonic Co-Pilot sounds like it should be perfect for this sort of thing, at least the title certainly does. There are just other (IMO any) mechanics better suited to what Demonic Co-Pilot proports to accomplish. I'd like it better if it was just the Sponsorship mechanics granting FP and Debt according to an agenda (I also think the sponsorship mechanics are elegant and clever to a fault, so I'll admit my opinion is clouded).
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If I could elaborate a little further: on paper, Demonic Co-Pilot sounds like it should be perfect for this sort of thing, at least the title certainly does. There are just other (IMO any) mechanics better suited to what Demonic Co-Pilot proports to accomplish. I'd like it better if it was just the Sponsorship mechanics granting FP and Debt according to an agenda (I also think the sponsorship mechanics are elegant and clever to a fault, so I'll admit my opinion is clouded).
I may need to reread it, but it doesn't sound that bad assuming you can end encounters quickly. Similar to hunder stress no?
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I don't like Demonic Co-Pilot either. Not because it's underpowered, but because it involves oodles of pointless rolling.
Seriously, it's a pain in the neck.
Also, it punishes high rolls.
Also, it can actually be overpowered in some situations. It's very useful on non-conflict Powers, because mental stress seriously does not matter most of the time. Its power depends on the co-pilot's agenda, which is completely undefined rules-wise. Especially since that agenda dictates the consequences of being taken out.
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Well, the intent behind Demonic Co-Pilot is less to create a perfectly balanced addition to the system and more to emulate the advantages and drawbacks of things like the Hexenwulf belts. And sure, mental stress doesn't make a difference most of the time. Neither does physical stress. It's supposed to punish high rolls, because in this context, a "high roll" means, basically, that you're leaning more and more on the demon's influence, and it's therefore gaining control.
Hell, the sidebar next to the power outright says so. "Why would anyone take this?" "Hey, it's part of the belts, so it's in the game."
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Demonic Copilot can (in my opinion) be improved dramatically simply by replacing all of its existing rules with access to the sponsor debt mechanics from Sponsored Magic. So, for example, any time you act in a way that your demonic copilot approves of, you can invoke one of your aspects "for free" (and gain a point of debt). No rolling, no annoying stress rules (and I dislike the Hunger rules, too).
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Demonic Co-Pilot is a BAD POWER.
Its bonus is non-optional, but neither is it reliable.
If your target number is high enough or you roll low enough that you fail despite the bonus, you're still penalized. Simply for your actions corresponding to the agenda of your co-pilot. Despite the fact that you received no benefit.
If you roll high enough or your target numbers are low enough that the bonus has no meaningful impact things get even worse, as you're punished MORE for not NEEDING your co-pilot to succeed than you would be if the bonus was the crucial deciding factor. (particularly notable in pass/fail situations where there is no additional benefit to surplus shifts)
Well, the intent behind Demonic Co-Pilot is less to create a perfectly balanced addition to the system and more to emulate the advantages and drawbacks of things like the Hexenwulf belts. And sure, mental stress doesn't make a difference most of the time. Neither does physical stress. It's supposed to punish high rolls, because in this context, a "high roll" means, basically, that you're leaning more and more on the demon's influence, and it's therefore gaining control.
Hell, the sidebar next to the power outright says so. "Why would anyone take this?" "Hey, it's part of the belts, so it's in the game."
This isn't 'leaning more and more on the demon'.
It would be 'leaning more and more on the demon' if you could CHOOSE to use the bonus, and began to do so 'more and more', this is just a BAD POWER.
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I don't see anything in the power stating that the bonus is non-optional. To my reading, using any of the powers is optional. A wizard doesn't have to throw evocations, a White Court Vampire can hold back on the speed and strength to keep from triggering their hunger, so why should a Hexenwulf not be able to choose to hold back for the sake of their own sanity?
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As it currently Demonic Co-pilot is an much worse thing to take than feeding dependency (+1 vs -1) so the power is at least in my opinion two refresh to expensive probably 3 refresh.
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I don't see anything in the power stating that the bonus is non-optional. To my reading, using any of the powers is optional. A wizard doesn't have to throw evocations, a White Court Vampire can hold back on the speed and strength to keep from triggering their hunger, so why should a Hexenwulf not be able to choose to hold back for the sake of their own sanity?
That would certainly be more consistent with the established narrative of the setting, but it's not how I read the power strictly as written.
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Then don't get hung up on reading the power strictly as written. If the power doesn't say that every roll has to have the bonus, then every roll doesn't have to have that bonus.
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Actually, every applicable roll receiving the bonus is inherent to the text. Stating that such is mandatory would be superfluous.
To put it another way, I like your houserule, but I was discussing RAW.
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Actually, I think I have to agree with Tedronai on this one; that does seem to be how the power is written. Almost every other power I looked at is careful to specify that it grants an "ability" or that the character "may", but a couple of powers seem to deliberately not make themselves optional. Spirit Form and Hulking Size are two others. Of course, they can potentially be toggled on/off via (for example) a Shapeshifting Power. As can Demonic Copilot -- but when in your "powered" form, you get the benefits and penalties of the Demonic Copilot when the conditions apply, like it or no.
Which makes the power even worse than I thought it was.
Then again, any time this is a disadvantage, you could argue a self-compel, also per the RAW.
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Well, the intent behind Demonic Co-Pilot is less to create a perfectly balanced addition to the system and more to emulate the advantages and drawbacks of things like the Hexenwulf belts.
In my estimation, balance is the fourth-worst problem with Demonic Co-Pilot.
The worst is that it's not fun to play.
The second-worst is that it makes little sense in a number of ways, as Tedronai said.
The third-worst is that it doesn't actually emulate things like the Hexenwulf belts very well.
The fourth-worst is that its functioning is totally dependent on arbitrary interpretation.
The fifth-worst is balance.
Fortunately, this whole whack of issues can be avoided by using Sponsor Debt.
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The third-worst is that it doesn't actually emulate things like the Hexenwulf belts very well.
It doesn't? Constant mental attacks, quickly ramping up to Taken Outs and Extreme Consequences that change the person into some kind of blood thirsty beast sounds pretty much exactly like what the FBI guys went through in Fool Moon.
Remember, after using the belts for only a few days before the book starts, three of them were outright addicted to it and the fourth had to hide the belts to keep them from indulging.
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In my estimation, balance is the fourth-worst problem with Demonic Co-Pilot.
The worst is that it's not fun to play.
The second-worst is that it makes little sense in a number of ways, as Tedronai said.
That's what you get when you mix powers intended for NPCs in with the rest of the powers. We disagree about how well the power represents the FBI agents - and that said I cannot think of any PC who would have this "power". NPCs? Sure - it would help explain why they are psychotic. It could also paint a tragic picture, that of someone who tried to be good by was corrupted by the powers he thought he needed, making the villain a bit more sympathetic (but no less villainous).
Richard
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It doesn't? Constant mental attacks, quickly ramping up to Taken Outs and Extreme Consequences that change the person into some kind of blood thirsty beast sounds pretty much exactly like what the FBI guys went through in Fool Moon.
Remember, after using the belts for only a few days before the book starts, three of them were outright addicted to it and the fourth had to hide the belts to keep them from indulging.
The problem is that after using the belt for a short time, all someone would need to do is poke them and they'd keel over, having no consequences left to sacrifice. I still hold that a Sponsor Debt-style system would be more fun, more playable, more balanced, and better reflecting the "reality", so to speak.
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That's what you get when you mix powers intended for NPCs in with the rest of the powers.
You mistake my meaning.
I mean, it's not fun to play as the GM, with it on an NPC. That's how I used it, and it was quite annoying.
In a game, "not fun" is the biggest problem around.
Anyway, the poor representation problem is from the fact that Demonic Co-Pilot isn't really a threat to a disciplined character unless they use it for things they're good at. Your average Wizard could make Fists attacks all day with it, but a trained martial artist would have enormous trouble doing the same thing. Even if he had excellent Discipline.
That seems like a poor simulation to me.
Plus, using a hexenwulf belt to transform actually does not trigger Demonic Co-Pilot at all. The FBI guys have nothing to fear unless they start sprinting or fighting or something.
And Demonic Co-Pilot does not simulate things like the FBI peoples' psychotic aggression in human form or their addiction to transformation. At least, it doesn't simulate them well. You could hack things with take-out narration and consequence Compels, but neither method is as effective as Sponsor Debt.