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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Serack on April 02, 2012, 10:16:12 PM
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Who fixed LC is a topic that typically gets a lot of mileage around here. Especially since LC is a pet theory hot topic for some around here *looks significantly at the quacker.* So sorry if this has already been thoroughly rehashed, and sorry that I dedicated this to it's own topic, but I spent a bit of time klobbering it together so I wanted it to stand alone.
Having read through PG a couple weeks ago, I had something jump out at me during this most recent reread since I was thinking about LC. This is a rather Doylist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist) analysis (TvTropes warning)
(ch. 15) Harry takes Mouse and Bob with him first thing in the day after his interrupted attempt to use LC to track black magic. However, Harry doesn't take Bob out of his pack until he sets up the spell to tag the phage summoner in his hotel room shortly before sundown(ch. 23). And all Bob does is offer an opinion on the spell, nothing big. Harry has only taken Bob along on a case 3 other times. In GP, Bob is crucial in leading Harry through the NN. In Changes, Harry took Bob out to help guard against the will of the LotON, and significantly from a Doylist perspective, he took Bob out to Murph's in DB only to have him become vulnerable to being stolen by Cowl.
Here's the thing though. In chapter 15, Murph gives Harry a ride to the hospital to examine the victims of the previous night's phage attack only to bring him right back to the apartment in chapter 18. From Harry's motivations the only thing accomplished by going back to the appt. is the chance to walk Mouse before having to call a cab to go right back out to Mac's to visit with the Summer Knight. Really there isn't much good reason for Harry not to just skip the cab fare and get Murph to drop him off at Mac's in the first place.
So here's the Doylist conclusion:
Either Jim removed a laundry list of potential hurdles to having someone come in and fix LC at the beginning of the day's events, and then as an afterthought had Harry come back for the sole purpose of catching Thomas on his way out, with the return having nothing to do with the timing of LC's fixing... Or Jim had Harry pick up Bob (and Mouse) early in the day and lug him around the hospital despite him planning on coming right back to the appt because he deliberately wanted LC to get fixed while Harry was at the hospital. The only reason why I can think of for needing it to happen during this time frame is because Thomas was in the appt while Harry was at the hospital, and thus Thomas was involved in the fix (probably by letting whoever did it in).
[Edit: Don't fixate on Thomas letting the perp in. That's a /possible/ reason. The true theory/conclusion is that Jim needed Thomas there when it happened, letting the perp in is a resonable guess as to why]
P.S. Thanks wyltok (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php?action=profile;u=3906) for giving me a term for "theorizing from a writing perspective rather than from an in story perspective"
Edit:
Some extra thoughts posted in follow up posts (mostly mine unless otherwise noted):
- Looking at Thomas's actions in Backup, my secondary conclusions are that if Thomas let the "fixer" in without explaining it to Harry, he did it for very good reasons, and with good intentions.
- This gets me thinking... Whoever Thomas could have let in would have to be someone that doesn't care about a WCV living with Harry or flat out knows their relationship.
Still, Jim is pretty good at keeping his books lean and relevant. If something isn't necessary for a book, why put it there? The Doylist argument of "He just figured this [time travel] out and wanted to show it off" doesn't hold up to me. I don't think he'd contrive to include a "this is how time travel works" treatise in PG if time travel wasn't crucial to the events of that novel.
- Also, the fact that Thomas greeted Harry with the sawed off Shot Gun at the beginning of Ch 18 when he is coming in the door made me think that maybe he was particularly jumpy at the time, and wonder how that flavors this theory. I started going down the train of thought that maybe the perp was still in the appt at the time, but if so, Mouse would have probably keyed in on a veiled exit.
- Super Summary: The doylist point isn't necessarily that whoever did the fixing needed Thomas to let him in, although that was said to be a possible conclusion. The doylist point is that Jim needed Thomas in the appt when the fixing was done
11/9/2015 edit:
In a recent reading I took note that immediately after Molly's interrupting his aborted attempt to use LC to sniff out black magic on the first evening of PG, he ended up bringing Mouse with him to "bail out" Molly. Doylist thoughts on this:
- The weak given reason for bringing Mouse is that Mouse gave a hopefull look and batted the leash (basically asked to come). Jim worked in a joke around a comment immediately before that about being "a sucker for a pretty face" with respect to his damsel in distress button being pushed, and commented on Mouse's desire to come with, "You ain't pretty, furface."
Although funny, the joke seems a little forced, possibly in an attempt to cover the lame excuse to bring Mouse? - Bringing Mouse seems to have accomplished very little, but not nothing.
- Proxy friendliness to the cabby ("Mouse has better people skills than me.")
- Warning growl about the white tail car (later attributed to Thomas supposedly)
- Initial negative reaction towards Molly.
- Up front establishment that Mouse would be along for most of the case.
Just some thoughts. Together with the original theory, they show that Mouse getting out of the Appt. the next morning isn't as outlying, and that if the mystery fixer was actually in the Appt. while Harry was dealing with Molly that night, then Bob was there too.
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Intriguing! Having Thomas at the apartment to let in the Mysterious Fixer widely expands the suspect pool. "Ability to get past Harry's wards" was one of the primary restrictions, in my mind.
Of course, that adds in another variable: If Thomas let someone in Harry's apartment, wouldn't he have mentioned it? The endless string of girls Thomas has been bringing back to Harry's apartment suddenly got a good deal more suspicious. :D
P.S. I love the concept of Watsonian vs. Doylist analyses. I'll have to start using the terms!
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Of course, that adds in another variable: If Thomas let someone in Harry's apartment, wouldn't he have mentioned it? The endless string of girls Thomas has been bringing back to Harry's apartment suddenly got a good deal more suspicious. :D
Like he told Harry about the Oblivion War? Or his activities during White Night? ;)
Good post, Serack.
Edit:
What I'm saying is that Thomas doesn't tell Harry everything--although Thomas usually has good reasons as to why (Oblivion War: Harry would make it worse. WN: Justine was under the gun. Salon: Embarrassment. Etc.) He was raised in a 'family' that prides themselves on deception, manipulation, and catspaws.
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Intriguing! Having Thomas at the apartment to let in the Mysterious Fixer widely expands the suspect pool. "Ability to get past Harry's wards" was one of the primary restrictions, in my mind.
Of course, that adds in another variable: If Thomas let someone in Harry's apartment, wouldn't he have mentioned it? The endless string of girls Thomas has been bringing back to Harry's apartment suddenly got a good deal more suspicious. :D
P.S. I love the concept of Watsonian vs. Doylist analyses. I'll have to start using the terms!
Looking at Thomas's actions in Backup, my secondary conclusions are that if Thomas let the "fixer" in without explaining it to Harry, he did it for very good reasons, and with good intentions.
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Like he told Harry about the Oblivion War? Or his activities during White Night? ;)
Good post, Serack.
Edit:
What I'm saying is that Thomas doesn't tell Harry everything--although Thomas usually has good reasons as to why (Oblivion War: Harry would make it worse. WN: Justine was under the gun. Salon: Embarrassment. Etc.) He was raised in a 'family' that prides themselves on deception, manipulation, and catspaws.
Oh, I wasn't leaving that out of the equation. At least, I wasn't in my head. :D Looks like I didn't manage to include that potential avenue on paper! I suppose "why wouldn't he have mentioned it?" is a more fitting question.
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How the heck would Thomas be convinced to let someone play with Harry's volatile magic equipment in the basement that they by all rights should not know exists?
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Who fixed LC is a topic that typically gets a lot of mileage around here. Especially since LC is a pet theory hot topic for some around here *looks significantly at the quacker.* So sorry if this has already been thoroughly rehashed, and sorry that I dedicated this to it's own topic, but I spent a bit of time klobbering it together so I wanted it to stand alone.
I hope you aren't talking about me.
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How the heck would Thomas be convinced to let someone play with Harry's volatile magic equipment in the basement that they by all rights should not know exists?
If it's a Venatori thing, he'd hide stuff even from Harry.
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If it's a Venatori thing, he'd hide stuff even from Harry.
Yeah, he hides things from Harry, now why the hell would he trust someone in Harry's basement in the first place?
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Yeah, he hides things from Harry, now why the hell would he trust someone in Harry's basement in the first place?
That's my only problem with it. Who would he have to let in to work on LC? The only people that would fix it (Mab, Leah, Future Harry, Eb, Elaine) would already have the ability to let themselves in.
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That's my only problem with it. Who would he have to let in to work on LC? The only people that would fix it (Mab, Leah, Future Harry, Eb, Elaine) would already have the ability to let themselves in.
You are forgetting LC itself.
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P.S. I love the concept of Watsonian vs. Doylist analyses. I'll have to start using the terms!
I agree very much, as someone who has consciously made both Watsonian and Doylist arguments at various times on these boards (though I was unfamiliar with the terminology at the time).
On the broader point, this was a good catch, Serack; I think your logic is convincing.
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Wow – good catch Serack.
I’m inclined to believe one of two things about the timing of Thomas leaving as Harry gets back from the hospital visit.
1. Thomas let the Gate Keeper in (either knowing or unknowing). The Gate Keeper then fixed LC. This all hinges on the Gate Keeper’s pre-cog abilities and the fact that the Gate Keeper got Harry pointed in the right direction. Maybe the Gate Keeper was even working with/for Mab as it seems much of what else that happened in PG was of Mab’s design. So I don’t see it as a stretch that Mab and the Gate Keeper were in cahoots with each other.
Or
2. It was meant to be a red herring for us reads to suspect Thomas had something to do with fixing LC. However much to JB’s surprise, few of us actually noticed the red herring until now.
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I love this (and TVTropes). I love using the idea of "what was the author thinking" when trying to predict plot twists.
Another thing that I like reminding people is that it is in Proven Guilty where we first learn the basic theory of the rules of time travel. Don't cause paradoxes, predictions have to be vague because otherwise they'll invalidate the prediction, etc.
But the thing is, the plot of Proven Guilty essentially has NOTHING to do with time travel. The Gatekeeper didn't have to use oracular powers to warn Harry.
There are two possible Doyalist (out of character) reasons time travel is brought up (and discussed for a few pages, even):
1. Jim was writing the Dresden Files RPG at the time, and had just formalized the rules himself, and wanted to show them off.
2. Jim was laying groundwork for the time travel book we KNOW is coming, and therefore had had to formalize the rules, at least for himself.
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1. Thomas let the Gate Keeper in (either knowing or unknowing). The Gate Keeper then fixed LC. This all hinges on the Gate Keeper’s pre-cog abilities and the fact that the Gate Keeper got Harry pointed in the right direction. Maybe the Gate Keeper was even working with/for Mab as it seems much of what else that happened in PG was of Mab’s design. So I don’t see it as a stretch that Mab and the Gate Keeper were in cahoots with each other.
Or
Intersting. This gets me thinking... Whoever Thomas could have let in would have to be someone that doesn't care about a WCV living with Harry or flat out knows their relationship. It also inspires some other thoughts that if expressed, I fear could lead to derailment. I'd rather hear more opinions like this one first.
Edit: Also, the fact that Thomas greeted Harry with the sawed off Shot Gun at the beginning of Ch 18 when he is coming in the door made me think that maybe he was particularly jumpy at the time, and wonder how that flavors this theory. I started going down the train of thought that maybe the perp was still in the appt at the time, but if so, Mouse would have probably keyed in on a veiled exit.
I love this (and TVTropes). I love using the idea of "what was the author thinking" when trying to predict plot twists.
Another thing that I like reminding people is that it is in Proven Guilty where we first learn the basic theory of the rules of time travel. Don't cause paradoxes, predictions have to be vague because otherwise they'll invalidate the prediction, etc.
But the thing is, the plot of Proven Guilty essentially has NOTHING to do with time travel. The Gatekeeper didn't have to use oracular powers to warn Harry.
There are two possible Doyalist (out of character) reasons time travel is brought up (and discussed for a few pages, even):
1. Jim was writing the Dresden Files RPG at the time, and had just formalized the rules himself, and wanted to show them off.
2. Jim was laying groundwork for the time travel book we KNOW is coming, and therefore had had to formalize the rules, at least for himself.
Jim didn't write the DFRPG, he just read over it and told them things like, "You can't use that, I won't be revealing it until much later in the series." However, seeing their writeup might have motivated him to flesh out the points for your #2.
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Intersting. This gets me thinking... Whoever Thomas could have let in would have to be someone that doesn't care about a WCV living with Harry or flat out knows their relationship.
It would also have to be someone Thomas trusts enough to let them risk Harry's life by fiddling around with his equipment.
Jim didn't write the DFRPG, he just read over it and told them things like, "You can't use that, I won't be revealing it until much later in the series." However, seeing their writeup might have motivated him to flesh out the points for your #2.
Reading this, I have to wonder, did they get to look at notes detailing various concepts and backstories of creatures in the dresdenverse to make so many accurate guesses about future content?
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It would also have to be someone Thomas trusts enough to let them risk Harry's life by fiddling around with his equipment.
I added a few extra thoughts in an edit to that post. I hope you don't miss em.
Reading this, I have to wonder, did they get to look at notes detailing various concepts and backstories of creatures in the dresdenverse to make so many accurate guesses about future content?
Yes and no. Since Iago says he has been sitting on the spoiler for the event at the conclusion of Changes since before the books were published, I get the idea that he was probably privy to Jim's original notes on the series that he wrote during his "writing a series" class. However Iago didn't do most of the writing for the books.
Here's something Iago said about the Watsonian PoV of the DFRPG books:
It is not Word of Jim, but it's close. The blacked out stuff that folks can discover in the PDFs are 4th wall breaking stuff, mainly an in joke for people who figure out how to read it. Beyond that there are elements of the text that are at least slightly inaccurate or more often incomplete because the rpg as presented is being filtered through Billy -- a version of Billy who was more clued in prior to Turn Coat, so the rpg itself is at least a little alternate universe in its conceit. But regardless we made it as close to the spruce material as we could manage, because we wanted the setting parts of it to work as a legitimate fan guide too.
I take this to mean that pretty much the main source material for the DFRPG books is the case files themselves up to TC, with a little bit of interpolation and spin put on it by the writers from the perspective of Billy.
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Intersting. This gets me thinking... Whoever Thomas could have let in would have to be someone that doesn't care about a WCV living with Harry or flat out knows their relationship. It also inspires some other thoughts that if expressed, I fear could lead to derailment. I'd rather hear more opinions like this one first.
Ooh, good point.
Jim didn't write the DFRPG, he just read over it and told them things like, "You can't use that, I won't be revealing it until much later in the series." However, seeing their writeup might have motivated him to flesh out the points for your #2.
While it's true that Jim didn't "write" the DFRPG, he answered a LOT of questions for the team, clarifying points that were unclear or thusfar undefined. A LOT. STAGGERING amounts of text. He also provided a lot of answers to questions they didn't ask, providing huge, wonderful insights into the Dresdenverse. (Good lord, how I wish I could see all that correspondence! And all the future developments Chad figured out from text alone that Jim made him remove from the published version! Covet!) I think the DFRPG provided an excellent catalyst for him to solidify concepts in his mind he may not have taken the time to complete worked out.
Still, Jim is pretty good at keeping his books lean and relevant. If something isn't necessary for a book, why put it there? The Doylist argument of "He just figured this out and wanted to show it off" doesn't hold up to me. I don't think he'd contrive to include a "this is how time travel works" treatise in PG if time travel wasn't crucial to the events of that novel.
Also, while I know the DFRPG was in progress at the time Jim was writing Proven Guilty, I don't know how actively Jim was contributing at the time. I didn't become a beta until just after White Night was published, so my Behind The Scenes-foo was weaker.
Since Iago says he has been sitting on the spoiler for the event at the conclusion of Changes since before the books were published, I get the idea that he was probably privy to Jim's original notes on the series that he wrote during his "writing a series" class. However Iago didn't do most of the writing for the books.
Nah, Jim just likes tormenting those close to him. :D He told me the first line of "Changes" over a burger at New York Comic Con two years before the book came out, because he wanted to see my flailing reaction. XD While Fred is certainly the non-Butcher person who knows the most about what's going to happen in future books (unless it's Debbie Chester), I don't think it was because Jim let him see his notes. I think it was because Jim had to share his evil genius plan with someone. :D
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Ooh, good point.
While it's true that Jim didn't "write" the DFRPG, he answered a LOT of questions for the team, clarifying points that were unclear or thusfar undefined. A LOT. STAGGERING amounts of text. He also provided a lot of answers to questions they didn't ask, providing huge, wonderful insights into the Dresdenverse. (Good lord, how I wish I could see all that correspondence! And all the future developments Chad figured out from text alone that Jim made him remove from the published version! Covet!) I think the DFRPG provided an excellent catalyst for him to solidify concepts in his mind he may not have taken the time to complete worked out.
Still, Jim is pretty good at keeping his books lean and relevant. If something isn't necessary for a book, why put it there? The Doylist argument of "He just figured this out and wanted to show it off" doesn't hold up to me. I don't think he'd contrive to include a "this is how time travel works" treatise in PG if time travel wasn't crucial to the events of that novel.
Also, while I know the DFRPG was in progress at the time Jim was writing Proven Guilty, I don't know how actively Jim was contributing at the time. I didn't become a beta until just after White Night was published, so my Behind The Scenes-foo was weaker.
Nah, Jim just likes tormenting those close to him. :D He told me the first line of "Changes" over a burger at New York Comic Con two years before the book came out, because he wanted to see my flailing reaction. XD While Fred is certainly the non-Butcher person who knows the most about what's going to happen in future books (unless it's Debbie Chester), I don't think it was because Jim let him see his notes. I think it was because Jim had to share his evil genius plan with someone. :D
You mind if I pin some of this down in my "Word of Mods (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21772.msg947688.html#msg947688)" section? I ask because I don't want you to constantly feel like you have to self edit because you are considering what might be claimed for posterity.
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Edit: Also, the fact that Thomas greeted Harry with the sawed off Shot Gun at the beginning of Ch 18 when he is coming in the door made me think that maybe he was particularly jumpy at the time, and wonder how that flavors this theory. I started going down the train of thought that maybe the perp was still in the appt at the time, but if so, Mouse would have probably keyed in on a veiled exit.
This is a very clever point; what do you think of this explanation? (The following would be consistent with Mab as the culprit.)
Thomas let someone into the apartment (random girlfriend, perhaps?), and then something happens that demonstrates she wasn't who Thomas thought she was. Suppose she managed to...outlast Thomas's WCV endurance and then cased the place while he was all happy and comatose. She fixes LC and then exits the apartment through a portal to the Nevernever starting in Harry's basement and ending in Lea's garden. Thomas wakes up before Harry gets home and is freaked out by the fact that he fell asleep leaving a stranger in the apartment, and the stranger is gone leaving everything bolted shut from the inside. When Harry returns, Thomas thinks it might be "mystery girlfriend" back for round two, and while he's OK with part of that idea, he'd really like some answers first. Hence the shotgun.
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You mind if I pin some of this down in my "Word of Mods (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21772.msg947688.html#msg947688)" section? I ask because I don't want you to constantly feel like you have to self edit because you are considering what might be claimed for posterity.
Sure thing. I appreciate you asking first!
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This is a very clever point; what do you think of this explanation? (The following would be consistent with Mab as the culprit.)
Thomas let someone into the apartment (random girlfriend, perhaps?), and then something happens that demonstrates she wasn't who Thomas thought she was. Suppose she managed to...outlast Thomas's WCV endurance and then cased the place while he was all happy and comatose. She fixes LC and then exits the apartment through a portal to the Nevernever starting in Harry's basement and ending in Lea's garden. Thomas wakes up before Harry gets home and is freaked out by the fact that he fell asleep leaving a stranger in the apartment, and the stranger is gone leaving everything bolted shut from the inside. When Harry returns, Thomas thinks it might be "mystery girlfriend" back for round two, and while he's OK with part of that idea, he'd really like some answers first. Hence the shotgun.
Hmmmm. This idea fixes the issue I had with it being one of the fae. If Thomas had knowingly helped one of the fae into the appt, that would have been a favor that would have made said fae indebted to him. However if she tricked him into it, and gave him a wild ride... well problem solved.
However, I have two things that work against this. Firstly, the things Harry had to say about Thomas's recent habits made it sound like he wasn't leaving the appt wrecked from wild sex much lately.
"He's been very distant lately. And gone almost all of the time. Day and night. He sleeps and eats here but mostly when I'm at work. And when I do see him, it's always like that-in passing. He's in a hurry to get somewhere."
Also, Harry wasn't gone from the appt terribly long, and didn't notice any coma inducing mayhem having been induced upon his apartment when he got back and found Thomas leaving (for a 2nd time that morning, since Thomas also left shortly before Harry left for the hospital)
1 concept for and 2 arguments against... I'm not throwing it out, but I'm calling it unlikely.
Keep em coming, I'm having a lot of fun here :)
Edit: I was going to add that Thomas might have had trouble feeding off of something supernatural and thus would have noticed something fishy with said mystery girl, however, he did feed off the supernatural baddy in Backup.
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Has anyone considered wether or not Harry met Thomas in his apartment?
Suppose another wizard finessed his (or her) way in past the wards once the house was emptied and started fixing LC. (S)he takes a couple of hours to deconstruct and repair the spell matrix and starts packing up to leave. While heading for the exit they hear Harry opening his door and cast a quick glamour to look like Thomas. Now, this mystery mage would be waiting for the other shoe to drop, not knowing if the glamour would hold. Since a wizard trying to secretly fix LC and help Harry would not want to risk leaving any magical clues (or break the first law) (s)he levels a shotgun as a last line of defense in the event that Harry notices the deception and attacks.
If we account for time travel it could have been Harry talking to himself disguised as Thomas while he was trying to escape from his own appartment after fixing his own broken spell. (has your head exploded yet?)
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Just for clarification, was Bob removed from the lab at any time between him noticing the flaw and it being repaired. If he wasn't, and it was someone Thomas let in, wouldn't Bob notice such a creature?
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My solution is so much easier you don't have to worry about bob or Thomas. If it fixed itself it wouldn't need to get in, because it was already there.
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Has anyone considered wether or not Harry met Thomas in his apartment?
Suppose another wizard finessed his (or her) way in past the wards once the house was emptied and started fixing LC. (S)he takes a couple of hours to deconstruct and repair the spell matrix and starts packing up to leave. While heading for the exit they hear Harry opening his door and cast a quick glamour to look like Thomas. Now, this mystery mage would be waiting for the other shoe to drop, not knowing if the glamour would hold. Since a wizard trying to secretly fix LC and help Harry would not want to risk leaving any magical clues (or break the first law) (s)he levels a shotgun as a last line of defense in the event that Harry notices the deception and attacks.
If we account for time travel it could have been Harry talking to himself disguised as Thomas while he was trying to escape from his own appartment after fixing his own broken spell. (has your head exploded yet?)
Mouse came in with him, and is typically immune to glamours. Even if it were future Harry, I think Mouse would have had something other than a nonreaction. And Thomas /did/ move out.
Just for clarification, was Bob removed from the lab at any time between him noticing the flaw and it being repaired. If he wasn't, and it was someone Thomas let in, wouldn't Bob notice such a creature?
the point of the OP is that Bob was out of the appt when Thomas was alone. Well the point is a little more intricate than that, but reading the OP should give you that much.
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If we account for time travel it could have been Harry talking to himself disguised as Thomas while he was trying to escape from his own appartment after fixing his own broken spell. (has your head exploded yet?)
If you're going down the "time travelling Harry" alley, I'd simply say that Future Harry revealed himself to Thomas and made him promise not to say anything to Current Harry "or the universe will explode".
+ This would explain the nervousness Thomas has upon meeting Harry -- He's worried about paradoxageddon.
+ Heck, Thomas may even be the person who crashed that battleship of a car into Harry to prevent him from using LC earlier.
- The only weakness I see with this theory is that according to Priscellie's timeline thread (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1592.msg28576.html#msg28576), "Backup" happens after PG, and Thomas there doesn't seem to be too knowledgeable about what LC does, something you'd think he would have required Future Harry (or anyone else) to 'splain before letting him do his stuff.
P.S.
Thanks for the original analysis, Serack. Very good way of looking at things sideways.
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Having just reread this section of PG, I am struck by Thomas's reaction to Harry coming back in and by the fact that Thomas was getting ready to move out.
To me this suggests that Thomas was home alone, both Bob and Mouse were out, and someone came took down the wards and started banging the broken door open. Except it was not Harry. This is why he's spooked when Harry does the same thing.
Up thread someone made the stipulation that who ever was "let in" by Thomas was okay with he and Harry being roommates. I don't think was the case. I think this person knew Thomas was a vamp and told him to move out. In short I think it was Eb stopping by for a visit. He might have stopped by to just confront Thomas, but it also gives a window of time for Eb to be the fixer of LC.
Lets also rememeber that we find out that Eb is Harry's grandfather in Changes, and there is that WoJ about after Changes we have all the clues to who fixed LC. Having Eb be family could give him the added motivation to keep an eye on Harry.
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In short I think it was Eb stopping by for a visit. He might have stopped by to just confront Thomas, but it also gives a window of time for Eb to be the fixer of LC.
How did Ebenezar get past Harry's wards? How did he know how to fix Little Chicago (stated that you would need intimate knowledge of the design process IIRC)? And wasn't Thomas getting ready to move for a while?
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Having just reread this section of PG, I am struck by Thomas's reaction to Harry coming back in and by the fact that Thomas was getting ready to move out.
To me this suggests that Thomas was home alone, both Bob and Mouse were out, and someone came took down the wards and started banging the broken door open. Except it was not Harry. This is why he's spooked when Harry does the same thing.
Up thread someone made the stipulation that who ever was "let in" by Thomas was okay with he and Harry being roommates. I don't think was the case. I think this person knew Thomas was a vamp and told him to move out. In short I think it was Eb stopping by for a visit. He might have stopped by to just confront Thomas, but it also gives a window of time for Eb to be the fixer of LC.
Lets also rememeber that we find out that Eb is Harry's grandfather in Changes, and there is that WoJ about after Changes we have all the clues to who fixed LC. Having Eb be family could give him the added motivation to keep an eye on Harry.
Interesting. There /was/ a lot of really awkward body language and uncomfortable silences. I think Thomas was already planning on moving out though... hence the $ included with the note. Another possibility for extra tension might be hinted at with the beer being cold. There is some extra unknown and important qualities to Mac, so maybe he had something to do with it, and hence Thomas commenting about Mac not being happy if he found out about the beer being kept cold.
2009 Dayton Book Signing @3:25
Could MacAnally possibly be a son of Dionysus?
He's not a Greek god nor a scion of the gods, I'll tell you that much, but we will probably won't get to see much about MacAnally until the big trilogy at the end.
2011 DC signing
Is Mac ever going to speak more than ten words?
Not for a while. He's not a man of many words, as most truly dangerous people are.
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Going back to the Doylist idea and looking at the writer's reasons, rather than character reasons, I believe such an analysis lends credence to the idea of a time-travelling Harry.
Consider the knowledge of time travel to be a Chekov's gun. It was placed in Proved Guilty as a interesting side note, but not critical to that plot. However, once seen, it can be called upon when it is critical to the plot later.
Consider this: For whatever reason, Harry has to change something in the past, around the time of Proven Guilty. He knows when he will be gone, so he goes back to his apartment to use LC. He runs into Thomas and pretends to be current Harry, in a hurry. He fixed LC and gets the info he needs. But on his way out, he lets something slip that sets Thomas on edge. Thus Thomas greets Harry with suspicion later on in PG.
As far as a reaons, well, this was the book that showed the aftermath of someone's attack on Arctis Tor- another big event that occurred "off camera". Perhaps not forever...
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He runs into Thomas and pretends to be current Harry, in a hurry. He fixed LC and gets the info he needs. But on his way out, he lets something slip that sets Thomas on edge. Thus Thomas greets Harry with suspicion later on in PG.
I like this explanation. It also covers why Thomas is not knowledgeable about LC in "Backup".
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your doylist explanation needs more doylist explanations ;D
1-if it was future harry, why does he need thomas to let him in?
2- the discussion about time was not about time travel; it was about predicting the future. its about how someone who can see the future, must act in twisty turny methods if they wish to change it.
2b- thus, if your assumption is corect, a person fore saw that harry would not be there then, and that thomas would be, and then had to talk thomas into letting them in, (since its not future harry, he would not need that coincidence) and its not Eb (he was busy). So how did the gatekeeper talk his way past thomas, a person he had never met before? (and a whampire as well?)
2c- youre ignoring the car hit at the begining of the book. by doylist analysis, that must be crucial as well.
3- does not explain: the incidents with LC in turn coat, or his headaches in TC
3b- this is important because at some point jim needs to solve most of these mysteries. the list is now long enough that either many of them have one single solution, or hes is going to have a similliarion of his own attached to book 20.
3c- while a 700 page 'mysteries solved' would be awesome, i dont see it selling well. ;D
simpler doylist explanation: Mab. the time travel discussion is about how she foresaw the future, and why she needs to use very twisty methods ( bring molly to AT, to bring harry, etc..) to change it.
doylist within the doylist: unless LC was fixed, mab's plan would not work. ergo, she , prior to implementing her plan, made sure all parts were operational.
DwD2- this explains the exact wording she used in her bargian with harry in sk.
- also the clues given in TC, SmF, C, and GS
(I dont mind doylist analysis. I just think if youre going to do it, you need to to do it on all the books as one piece. too many of the mysteries depend on clues in prior or later books.)
- the quacker.
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your doylist explanation needs more doylist explanations ;D
1-if it was future harry, why does he need thomas to let him in?
If you look at the original post, nobody is saying it must be Time-travelling Harry. Any sort of "Thomas let them in" is possible.
2c- youre ignoring the car hit at the begining of the book. by doylist analysis, that must be crucial as well.
A Doyle explanation for the cab ride does not need to explain every other point in the book. (e.g. fixing little Chicago does not necessarily have to do with the assault on AT)
3- does not explain: the incidents with LC in turn coat, or his headaches in TC
It certainly doesn't need to explain things in other books. There can certainly be other (Doyalist or otherwise) explanations for those things (e.g. Demonreach making its presence known).
3b- this is important because at some point jim needs to solve most of these mysteries. the list is now long enough that either many of them have one single solution, or hes is going to have a similliarion of his own attached to book 20.
Some of the outstanding questions in the books may have combined solutions, but to reject this theory just because it doesn't fit 3 specific incidents that you decided *must* be connected is a little harsh IMO.
simpler doylist explanation: Mab. the time travel discussion is about how she foresaw the future, and why she needs to use very twisty methods ( bring molly to AT, to bring harry, etc..) to change it.
(I dont mind doylist analysis. I just think if youre going to do it, you need to to do it on all the books as one piece. too many of the mysteries depend on clues in prior or later books.)
- the quacker.
Sorry, but this theory isn't really "Doyalist" in that it doesn't really address the orignal Doyalist issue at all. Namely:
Why did Jim have Harry to go back to his apartment (in Murphy's car) only to take a cab to the convention?
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You are forgetting LC itself.
Ya the similarities between little chicago and always struck me, but I doubt anything will ever come of it. It was presumably destroyed after all.
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@knn-
no, because I think thats just filler. it does however, adress other issues:
- why did JIM have Mab steal the rod and mess with his memmories? it wasnt for plot or tension, having mab say "you are being traced by your fire magic; therefore, you may cast no evocations" would have done that better and easier.
- why the long discussion- not on time travel, btw, but on precognition- and the rather extreme lenghts you would have to go to change a propechy? - Because Mab is the one changing time.
- why the refences in TC to a tarp? or a headache caused by 'two icicles shoved in my brain?'
-thomas let someone in does not buy it for me. who? and why would he let them in? Thomas is a whampire lord- they dont get much more paranoid than that. I cant see gatekeeper coming up with some explanation thomas would accept. About the only person wed let in would be Justine, and she wasnt doing much at the moment.
-any future harry, thomas, or maggie jr would not need to be let in.
-Jim has mentioned that one of the reasons not to do a story from Mouses' pov is that he knows toom much. what, exactly? How about what the person who did it smelled like?
-and yes, i do think you need to consider the books as a whole, Take the belts for example- the clues about the erlking were not until much later. and it still is not resolved as to WHY ek may have done it. hence the other clues about marcone, hendricks, and odin.
-perhaps thomas let someone in. who? why? how did they get past? what clues have been dropped? were all the clues in PG? Somehow I doubt the last one.
- the quacker
who thinks mab did it, not for personal reasons, but because of the wieght of evidence.
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what if it is future Thomas that tomas let in. Thomas uses an amulet to get in and it probably stopped working after harrys place burns down. so who ever sends him back tells him how to fix lc but he needs his younger self to get in. thats why thomas is so broken up after harrys death. his future self came back to save harry once where is he this time
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if 'lord thomas raith' from the future needs someone to let him in, hes not a good enough wizard to fix the darn thing.
also goes for maggie jr,etc,etc..
the PG story was rewritten, i believe, because its out of order- it was supposed to be before dead beat, but the editor wanted the trex for the first hard back. cant say i blame her.
;D
thus, it may be a story artifact. or filler, for a scene that was cut. or backstory- perhaps its part of the thomas become a hairdresser joke.
by itself, it doesnt answer any questions- whoever went in would still have to:
-know about the LC
-know how to fix it
-know about mab's plans
-foresee the future
-want to risk changing a prophecy to do so
-get past thomas now, instead of harry's wards, which in many ways, beign dumb, are easier to get past
- that still leaves us with two real options:
Mab
Gatekeeper
of all of these, I think Mab walking in the hidden door in the basement is a lot more likely. In whcih case, your analysis is just the time she did so, and has nothing to do with thomas at all.
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but what if future thomas goes back with future bob. they meet thomas there because they need him for what ever else they go back for.
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no, because I think thats just filler.
Nevertheless, this was point that started this whole thread. Saying "nah, it's just filler" is kinda anti-doyle IMHO.
- why did JIM have Mab steal the rod and mess with his memmories? it wasnt for plot or tension, having mab say "you are being traced by your fire magic; therefore, you may cast no evocations" would have done that better and easier.
One could say the same thing for Mab fixing LC - why not simply tell Harry?
- why the long discussion- not on time travel, btw, but on precognition- and the rather extreme lenghts you would have to go to change a propechy? - Because Mab is the one changing time.
1) At the risk of repeating myself, the OP was just about seeing Thomas.
2) You seem to be contradicting yourself - it can't be about time travel because the conversation is about precog, but then Mab changed time?
- why the refences in TC to a tarp? or a headache caused by 'two icicles shoved in my brain?'
Tarp - simpler way of saying "I tried using LC but it didn't work". Same way he mentions "that clear shelf with a skull and steamy novels" every time he goes down to the lab.
Mouse-Headache - Someone controlling his brain. Remember, he had been having those headaches for the last couple of months. If you want to say it's Mab, you'll have explain why he had the headache the morning before Morgan dropped in on him.
-thomas let someone in does not buy it for me. who? and why would he let them in? Thomas is a whampire lord- they dont get much more paranoid than that. I cant see gatekeeper coming up with some explanation thomas would accept. About the only person wed let in would be Justine, and she wasnt doing much at the moment.
Thomas letting someone in is one explanation for the scene. The Doyle part doesn't say anything more than "meeting Thomas at the front door is important".
Other possibilities:
- As pointed out, Future Harry might have fooled Thomas long enough.
- Murhpy - Thomas knows her. She could vouch for someone else (say Molly?)
- Heck, Future Thomas could have showed up with someone in tow.
-any future harry, thomas, or maggie jr would not need to be let in.
True, but all we're trying to solve is why that scene with Thomas was written. If e.g. Future Harry meets Thomas, (on the way out), and we read about it in some later book, then this scene makes sense (first foreshadowing of future encounter).
-Jim has mentioned that one of the reasons not to do a story from Mouses' pov is that he knows toom much. what, exactly? How about what the person who did it smelled like?
I believe that's stretching it. You're are really saying that the only reason Jim couldn't write a Mouse POV story is because Mouse happened to have smelled who came in to fix LC? I think it would be simple for Jim to simply not have that specific memory/thought come up during the course of the story.
More likely, it's that Mouse is clued in to any number of important facts, and it would be hard to write something from Mouse's POV without bringing up any of those.
-and yes, i do think you need to consider the books as a whole, Take the belts for example- the clues about the erlking were not until much later. and it still is not resolved as to WHY ek may have done it. hence the other clues about marcone, hendricks, and odin.
First of all, many - maybe even most of the books have multiple little-connected plots running through them (e.g. Ortega and Nic). Not everything has to connect.
Secondly, I personally don't give much credit to the Erlking == hexunbelts theory. The only thing going for it is the NN-proximity of the local FBI building to Erl's domain, something that can be explained by congruence. Against this you've got:
- Erlking doesn't really seem the type to use these sneaky types of plans.
- Someone explicitly warned the FBI agents about the White Council, and about shifting the blame to Loupy. I simply don't see the Erlking caring.
- Hexunwulf are black magic type items. While it wouldn't surprise me much if the Erlking
could make such a belt, his magic seems "natural" - i.e. just like the fear generated by the Fetches - I don't think it's black magic. Furthermore, they tap into demons for control. It doesn't feel correct.
-perhaps thomas let someone in. who? why? how did they get past? what clues have been dropped? were all the clues in PG? Somehow I doubt the last one.
Not sure what you're saying here. I also doubt the clues were all in PG. Same as for your theories - the clues are spread out over the books.
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-want to risk changing a prophecy to do so
What prophecy are you talking about?
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Going back to the Doylist idea and looking at the writer's reasons, rather than character reasons, I believe such an analysis lends credence to the idea of a time-travelling Harry.
Consider the knowledge of time travel to be a Chekov's gun. It was placed in Proved Guilty as a interesting side note, but not critical to that plot. However, once seen, it can be called upon when it is critical to the plot later.
Consider this: For whatever reason, Harry has to change something in the past, around the time of Proven Guilty. He knows when he will be gone, so he goes back to his apartment to use LC. He runs into Thomas and pretends to be current Harry, in a hurry. He fixed LC and gets the info he needs. But on his way out, he lets something slip that sets Thomas on edge. Thus Thomas greets Harry with suspicion later on in PG.
As far as a reaons, well, this was the book that showed the aftermath of someone's attack on Arctis Tor- another big event that occurred "off camera". Perhaps not forever...
Addressing this first then knnn and Duck's responses
Overall I like your ideas, however in TC Harry got a pretty impressive facial scar that would make it hard to pass himself off as his PG past self.
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your doylist explanation needs more doylist explanations ;D
1-if it was future harry, why does he need thomas to let him in?
The doylist point isn't necessarily that whoever did the fixing needed Thomas to let him in, although that was said to be a possible conclusion. The doylist point is that Jim needed Thomas in the appt when the fixing was done.
2- the discussion about time was not about time travel; it was about predicting the future. its about how someone who can see the future, must act in twisty turny methods if they wish to change it.
So maybe it's a Chekov's temporal hand grenade rather than a Chekov's laser sighted sniper rifle.
2b- thus, if your assumption is corect, a person fore saw that harry would not be there then, and that thomas would be, and then had to talk thomas into letting them in, (since its not future harry, he would not need that coincidence) and its not Eb (he was busy). So how did the gatekeeper talk his way past thomas, a person he had never met before? (and a whampire as well?)
Good point about Eb. As for your point about the GK, that's why I pointed out that whoever it was had to already be comfortable with Thomas living there, or know the reason. And as to how he talked Thomas into letting him past the threshold (because that would be the point of Thomas being there for the GK) I'm not going to tell Jim that that's theoretically impossible. It would take some doing to make it work, but it's Jim, and this is all theory craft at the moment.
2c- youre ignoring the car hit at the begining of the book. by doylist analysis, that must be crucial as well.
I haven't got a good answer for that. I didn't know it was crucial to explain that one detail to maintain the rest of the analysis. Look a rabbit! Ok now the rest of your analysis doesn't work! I don't think so.
3- does not explain: the incidents with LC in turn coat, or his headaches in TC
Although I am not going to pin down a definitive reason for this as I don't know for sure how relevant the timing of the fix is to these, I can say that if lt_murgen's tie-in his time travel Harry theory with the Arctis Tor raid is a good idea, then it's easy to see how there could be another tie in with Mab messing with Harry's head and such to keep him from breaching that temporal anomaly.
3b- this is important because at some point jim needs to solve most of these mysteries. the list is now long enough that either many of them have one single solution, or hes is going to have a similliarion of his own attached to book 20.
3c- while a 700 page 'mysteries solved' would be awesome, i dont see it selling well. ;D
simpler doylist explanation: Mab. the time travel discussion is about how she foresaw the future, and why she needs to use very twisty methods ( bring molly to AT, to bring harry, etc..) to change it.
doylist within the doylist: unless LC was fixed, mab's plan would not work. ergo, she , prior to implementing her plan, made sure all parts were operational.
DwD2- this explains the exact wording she used in her bargian with harry in sk.
- also the clues given in TC, SmF, C, and GS
(I dont mind doylist analysis. I just think if youre going to do it, you need to to do it on all the books as one piece. too many of the mysteries depend on clues in prior or later books.)
- the quacker.
I am going to have to heartily disagree with you here. Each time I make a supposition based off of another supposition, to explain another detail that Jim fleshed out 3 years later, I am risking following further down a possibly wrong trail. I can still use doyalist analysis to gently thread down different small parts of theory to attempt to get meaningful explanations for partially isolated issues before I attempt to fit them into the grand scheme.
Even if it ends up that these few "puzzle pieces" don't fit together in this manor, I might glean some insight on the overall puzzle by this close scrutiny of the relationships between those pieces even without getting them to fit together on this attempt. So summary dismissal of the technique is... preemptive.
Edit: I'll have to step away for a bit before I decide if I want to address further arguments like this one.
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Ms Duck,
I have read your stipulations, and the only rebuttal I have to your conclusion that Mab is the only possible choice is the fact that the theory I posted earlier in the thread fits all of your stipulations and does not conclude that Mab had to do it. I will allow the possibility that Mab may have done it, but based on your own requirements, there are multiple possible perpitrators who could have done the deed including (but not limited to) Mab, time traveling Harry, time traveling Molly, the Gatekeeper, Lara Raith, any member of the Oblivion War vouchsafed by Lara, Michael Carpenter acting under orders from the archangels, the Burger King after offering Thomas a post-coital breakfast sandwich, Mister, Mac, or any mage talented enough with glamours to confuse Thomas.
I am concerned that you may be insisting that this particular conspiracy ties in with other conspiracies because it reinforces your theories regarding the other conspiracies if it is true, not because of any evidence that the conspiracies are related.
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So then by this logic who ever it was that fixed lc needed someone to let them either past the wards and/or past the threshold (at least so they could use magic while in harry's apartment) AND was either someone Thomas trusted or could fool him into letting them in.
Oddly enough it makes Mab (or Lea) more likely than future Harry baring some special rule about time travelers and thresholds. but it also means any witch or wizard who are decent at illusions or transformation would have been capable, notable examples being Elain or Joe (or if your in need of a time travel fix future molly ;) ). however the pool of people thomas would have trusted AND would be capable(ability and knowledge) and interested in fixing it is remarkable small.
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the Burger King after offering Thomas a post-coital breakfast sandwich
I ship it.
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^It would explain the shotgun. ;)
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^It would explain the shotgun. ;)
*snicker*
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So then by this logic who ever it was that fixed lc needed someone to let them either past the wards and/or past the threshold (at least so they could use magic while in harry's apartment) AND was either someone Thomas trusted or could fool him into letting them in.
it makes this likelyThe doylist point isn't necessarily that whoever did the fixing needed Thomas to let him in, although that was said to be a possible conclusion. The doylist point is that Jim needed Thomas in the appt when the fixing was done.
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Possibly another way to reframe the Doylist point in this case is to say that Jim wanted the reader to see Thomas acting strangely, so he inserted "Harry needs to return to his apartment because Mouse needs a walk" in order to give Harry the opportunity to see Thomas acting strangely.
Remember, one of the significant limitations of the novels is that they are limited to Harry's PoV. If something significant happens and Harry isn't there to see it, the only way the reader finds out about the significant event is for someone else to tell Harry about it--and JB can't use this technique too often, or it's a violation of "show, don't tell" and the story gets bogged down in character-dialogue about past events.
So, from the reader's perspective, what do we learn from Harry's interaction with Thomas? Thomas was jumpy and paranoid, and unusually so. This may be related to someone coming in the front door, so we might guess that the apartment had a visitor while Harry was out and Thomas was home alone. We don't know whether the visitor pounded the front door down or talked his or her way in, but either way, Thomas knew something was wrong by the end of the visit, and thought that he should have been more prepared earlier, leading to his later paranoid reaction to Harry coming back home.
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or, your interpretation could simply be that JIm wanted harry and bob out of the house while the fixing was done.
there is, at that time period, a secret door into the basement that harry did not know of, but that lea and mab did; furthermore, it is one they both had keys too.
and as tot he discussion about looking at the books individually or as a whole; to solve your mystery you are also looking at it as a whole- just tkaing one puzzle piece and then speculating from there without referncing any other books still requires refernecing other books.
for example, the discussion about time travel requires referncing wojs about future books that have not even been written yet; the assumption that 'thomas let some else in' requires an entire chain of specualtions without any woj whatsoever- as there is no one, I am aware of, in woj or written books that implies any conection between thomas and the gatekeeper.
-any connection between thomas and eb isnt confirmed until GS, much later, again a conection from outside PG. so youre going to have to build your specualtion chain.
-as to the car, im not saying it does have anything to do with LC. persoanlly, i doubt it. but its just as likely as harry stepping outside to do so- both got harry out of the house for a while; and unlike his just stepping out at least if your suspect hit him with the car theyd know hed be out of the house for a while, and stay there.
id assume that fixing LC took time, and a fair amount of care. I would want to make sure harry was going to be gone and stay gone for a while.
(which is why i always figured mab did it when they were asleep.)
but again, getting past thomas is no more easy than getting past harrys wards. for any of your suspects, its almost cetainly harder:
future harry could just unlock the wards
future molly could as well
Elaine could probably pick the wards more easily than talking her way past thomas
(she has before)
Eb was busy
futue maggir jr? shell be what, 13 when book 19 rolls around?
The gatekeeper? the assumption going for him is that he is a super good wizard with precog abbillities and divination skills that can not only foresee that the table will be needed, is flawed, can fix it, but cant pick the locks on harrys wards, but despite being a seven foot tall wizard whom thomas has never met, not a friend of harrys, can still talk his way past thomas, fix things, and get thomas not to talk in under an hour or two?
ok, i see one way. justine had a rather miraculous recovery after BR. if it turns out the gatekeeper contact thomas before hand, and cut some cort of deal with thomas for justine's health, ill buy it.
or if someone can think of something equivalent.
;D
so.. the hallmark of a good theory is that it predicts things, and is later proven corect ( my mab thoery predicted the end of GS, and was pretty darn close. even tho i wrote it several years before.)
ergo.. what the prediction for a thomas/justine/ gatekeeper theory?
best I can think of is : inn the next few books, justine meats the gatekeeper and recognizes him. or mentions a magiacl healing potion thomas found for her..