I'd disagree. Butters has, in Dead Beat, given some thought to comparing magic to science, and created psuedo-theory about it. Whether or not a Faraday Cage works is up to you, but I think it's an interesting idea, and Jim has certainly opened the door with Butters 'electro-magnetic-like field' thing to the fact that magic is in some way scientifically quantifiable.
they also don't account for why Harry is more likely to jam an automatic than a revolver, despite the fact that the automatic may be a simpler machine. Go figure.
Wizards have been around a lot longer than technology, and certain technologies were new at one point or another.
What I see is that it seems to be based on how the wizard regards technology. I suspect that if a wizard was your typical computer geek, then we'd see them having trouble with basically no electronics.
Well yes, it has been done before. But how would it work within the magic system for the Dresden files, is what I'm asking.
Well, we don't conclusively know that. The only wizard we've seen anywhere near high tech stuff is Harry, and we know he's not a fair representative for all magedom.Not conclusively, but...
Except that Harry apparently does have a decent layman's understand of technology. If you'll recall, the GPS is Harry's idea, because he read about it in magazine in the library. So while Harry certainly wouldn't have much "hands-on" knowledge about technology, it appears that he probably has at least a decent amount of "book-learning" about it.
He understands that it works, but nothing about it that we know of. The difference is huge. If he had decent "book-knowledge", he would know about the EM physics involved and such. What he has is a vague knowledge that it exists.If Harry only read a couple of magazine articles on GPS units and suchlike, chances are the articles would not go into great detail on their inner workings because such articles are written as overviews of technologies and what applications they could have, not the theory and implementation therof.
As Harry's magic comes from life itself, brains are probably no going to affected by the ambient field ;)
It's not like anyone is gonna beat you to death with the game books for going off the beaten path.
QuoteIt's not like anyone is gonna beat you to death with the game books for going off the beaten path.
.... Clearly you have never played witha true rules lawyer DM.
Industrial Force Field
Industrial Case Evidence
An invisible force field has been experienced as a by-product of a particular industrial process in a 3M manufacturing plant in the south eastern United States. This occurred in August 1980 at its polypropylene plant around a large film-slitting machine with usually a temperature of about 80 degrees Fahrenheit with a relative humidity of 75-80%.
David Swenson of 3M Electrical Specialties Division in Austin, Texas was called in to investigate the problems with contamination of wide web film as it was being run at high speed, converted (split) into “film jumbos” with a width of 3’ x 5’ for coating with adhesive to make tape.
The Polypropylene web was 21 feet across – with the film running from one roller up 20 feet to another roller; across 15 feet to a third roller; down 20 feet to a splitter; and was then wound onto two rolls. It formed a huge dynamic “tent”. Swenson was there to measure the static electricity inside the web tent . As he approached the tent, his static field meter recorded a 200kV @ 12” The amount of static electricity was in the Mega volt range. The force that engaged him inside the tent was invisible and impenetrable, certainly making him unable to move further forward.
This was Coulomb’s Forces – the law of static attraction and repulsion – Static Electricity can cause some very strange and often difficult to explain phenomena. It is easily controlled if a commitment is made. This nuisance can be reduced to a non-nuisance level by proper analysis and installation of suitable equipment, at a very low cost.
To get rid of the effects at the plant an induction static eliminator was installed across the web at the unwind. The static electricity was immediately reduced throughout the process to less than 50kV (from MV’s). It was then possible to make measurements in the rest of the area. Additional induction units were also installed at the jumbo wind-up areas, which resulted in less than 5kV at conclusion.
Would gunpowder be considered technology?
Would gunpowder be considered technology?
The argument could be made that gunpowder is an alchemical compound.
Would gunpowder be considered technology?
The argument could be made that gunpowder is an alchemical compound.
Yep. It is part and parcel to the ferromancy that Mab talked about in DB.
-LN
One man's magic is another man's science.
We do know that the more wizards there are, the less likely technology is to hold out. (SK)
We do know that technology shorts out in the presence of just about ANY supernatural occurance, even if wizard's aren't involved (FM, SK, I think it's mentioned in GP)
We do know that the emotional state of the wizard seems to have some effect on whether the technology will work (Several books, the best reference is DM).
We do know that if lots of magic is flying around, it's more likely that technology will fail, and that mages can focus their hex to some degree.
We do know that magic's effect on technology can be warded against and spells can be used to mitigate it. (DM, DB)
This indicates to me that the effect of magic on technology is a direct result of magic itself rather than the magician.
This is a bumpy issue. very curious. i would like to see butter's quantify the particle of magic though. That would be amusing. I have faith Butcher will do the issue justice in the books, as he's a sci-fi nerd as well as fantasy. good luck with the rules ironing.
Here's the thing. I'm a computer programmer. Have been for over a decade. That means that I not only am familiar with computers, but that I often have to "think like" a computer.
Wouldn't that suggest that I might think "Gee... I should be able to enchant my computer to protect it from magic, no matter what my teacher says."?
What about something like a grounding strap, that the wizard can put on to use tech normally? Maybe Harry's could be made of copper discs... :D
I have the impression that you can't put wards on technology. I imagine that the magic involved either the act of creating the ward or the functioning of the ward itself would mess up the technology. If it could be done, I would have expected Harry to put wards on the Blue Beetle by now.You know, I wonder if wireless/bluetooth keyboard and mouse would work through a summoning circle. you could shield the pc, but still surf the web using the easily replaceable keyboard and mouse.
If understanding the technology mitigates the disruptive effects of magic, then we must ask what level of understanding is required? Would you need to know the tolerances of all the transistors and wires, the circuit board design, and so forth? If so, then very few people could reach the level of understanding necessary to safeguard even simple modern technology from magic.
However, you could put your computer in a circle (see Dead Beat), maybe a permanent one such as the summoning circle in Harry's lab. That would let it function even with a strong magic user in the room, but wouldn't let the magic user sit down and browse the web.
You know, I wonder if wireless/bluetooth keyboard and mouse would work through a summoning circle. you could shield the pc, but still surf the web using the easily replaceable keyboard and mouse.
IMO – there shouldn’t be a way to keep technology safe from magic in this particular game. It starts to get too WoD and munchkin if you’ve got the magic/technology détente going on. In this game, if you want magic, you give up telephones and iPods. If you want iPods, you give up magic.
And, of course, it wouldn't help either the Blue Beetle (you can't drive a car and keep it inside a circle)
QuoteQuote from: Samldanach on April 11, 2007, 10:14:01 AMWhy not?
And, of course, it wouldn't help either the Blue Beetle (you can't drive a car and keep it inside a circle)
Why not?SamldanachEr, I mean Slife, how would you keep the car in a circle while driving?
cybrgrl
Weld a steel circle along the undercarage.
Thus encircling the engine, I assume. But, the wires, tubes, mounts and things would stick out from the engine to the rest of the car, thus breaking the circle.
If you welded on a circle large enough to encompass the whole car, then you may indeed block out magic. However, a magic user in the car would make the whole construct moot at best. Circles hold magic in just as well as they hold it out. Anyway, parking would be hell.
cybrgrl
Thus encircling the engine, I assume. But, the wires, tubes, mounts and things would stick out from the engine to the rest of the car, thus breaking the circle.
Not if the circle was made out of car parts.
A quote from jim (http://www.jim-butcher.com/bb/index.php?PHPSESSID=d1998cdc05fd74843bd8ca207bc71458&topic=1942.msg37964#msg37964) about circles here.
So, creating a box around the car would probably work. You would tend to have issues at the four corners, where the energy would bleed off, possibly with visible effects. But, for the level of working you're talking about, it should hold together. (Of course, as cybrgrl pointed out, it still wouldn't actually help. I don't think there's any way to create a circle that would separate the driver from the engine.)
That would only work if you kept your hands inside the circle, wouldn't it? Reaching for the steering wheel would break it, either by your hands crossing the line or the wheel doing it.
Again, if the circle was made of car parts the steering wheel wouldn't interfere.
Hmm, taking the "static strip" idea, what if you bled the excess energy into a special container, rather than out into the environment. Kind of like Harry's ring that stores up kinetic energy. There would be no way to make it perfectly efficient, but you might be able to significantly lessen the effects. And, as a bonus, you're charging up a magical battery for later!
But, the steering wheel would be inside the circle. So would the drive train under the car. So, the car itself can't be insulated from the mage through the use of a circle.But it's a steering wheel. What could go wrong with it? Dresden doesn't have problems with his shoes, does he?
But it's a steering wheel. What could go wrong with it? Dresden doesn't have problems with his shoes, does he?
And I assume the drive shaft would be outside of the bottom of the circle.
But that begs the question; how far up, and how far down do circles go?See this conversation (http://www.jim-butcher.com/bb/index.php/topic,1825.0.html).
But it's a steering wheel. What could go wrong with it?
So just get a couple of extra bumpers to attach to the doors to make a full circle of bumpers. And it would be extra safe if someone tries to run Harry off the road.
If nothing else, the fact that one one has done it in the books yet is a pointer to the chances of success.
Just had a funny thought...
If Harry wanted to work around computers, he'd probably need a circle for any long period. And the circle would probably have to be made out of the same things a computers to allow him to use keyboards and stuff. So what's a computer made of? Silicon, plastic and copper wiring. Of course, he'd have to find a way to use it without any hands...
"Harry, is that-"
"It's my portable murphionic field dampening device. Very sophisticated."
"It looks like a hula hoop with some wires taped on."
He could just use a handful of ribbon wires connected end to end.What about the magical equivalent of telekinesis? He might not be able to touch type, but he might be able to manage point-and-click (as opposed to search-and-destroy).
He could just use a handful of ribbon wires connected end to end.
What about the magical equivalent of telekinesis? He might not be able to touch type, but he might be able to manage point-and-click (as opposed to search-and-destroy).
What if you bought an EMP hardened computer?
It is not clear that the murphyonic field that Wizards put out is EM based. The problem is that every tool they use to test for it gets fried. Butter seems to think that perhaps the field is EM. But we don't really know the cause.But we do know that some electronics are more resistant to magic than others. IE.The lights in the cave in White Night are a good example. Harry even mentions how they must have spent some good money on the lighting system to last so long.
-LN
But we do know that some electronics are more resistant to magic than others. IE.The lights in the cave in White Night are a good example. Harry even mentions how they must have spent some good money on the lighting system to last so long.
Sure, it is a question of simplicity of moving parts. The more comlex the tool, the fast it fries. We still don't know why, though...
-LN