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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: noom777 on December 14, 2011, 05:08:00 PM

Title: Magic circles.
Post by: noom777 on December 14, 2011, 05:08:00 PM

How does a magic circle works?Is it like a threshold?
Can it be broken by physical means?I have read the books but I can't remember how it was used.The only example I remember is when the frog demon(Storm Front) attacked Dresden in his house.Why the demon couldn't drop a chair to break the circle in the basement in which Dresden and Susan have found shelter?

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: computerking on December 14, 2011, 07:15:20 PM

Quote from: noom777 on December 14, 2011, 05:08:00 PM

How does a magic circle works?Is it like a threshold?
Can it be broken by physical means?I have read the books but I can't remember how it was used.The only example I remember is when the frog demon(Storm Front) attacked Dresden in his house.Why the demon couldn't drop a chair to break the circle in the basement in which Dresden and Susan have found shelter?

It is like a threshold, though how much so I am not sure, there's a lot of people who know more about that than I do. but for the final question (And note that this isbased on some passages in the novels, and not Rules from the RPG books), circles like that can only be broken by Mortal acts,  So the Demon couldn't get through.

(click to show/hide)

Also, in the same book, Harry broke Victor Sells' circle by throwing a film container across it.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: UmbraLux on December 14, 2011, 08:05:37 PM

Quote from: noom777 on December 14, 2011, 05:08:00 PM

How does a magic circle works?Is it like a threshold?
Can it be broken by physical means?

Circles are somewhat equivalent to zero point thresholds unless you've also added a block or ward.  They can be broken, though what breaks them tends to change from one group to another. 

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: wyvern on December 14, 2011, 08:57:12 PM

My normal ruling on circles: a circle is a lore-based maneuver, placing an aspect on the scene of "magic circle".  That aspect can then be used to trigger a compel to, for example, hold off a demon, or cause a spellcaster's magic to fail.  Of course, it's easy enough for a mortal to break a circle; I'd tend to rule a supplemental action would be sufficient if you're in the same zone.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: archmagelite on December 14, 2011, 09:21:03 PM

I might allow for a magic circle to be a conviction or lore based block against supernatural creatures. With the caveat that if they break the block your defenceless. Great for spirits and the odd magical manuever, but try it against anything with a physical form...

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: sinker on December 14, 2011, 09:28:48 PM

As far as the game is concerned, circles are thresholds and work exactly the same.

Mechanically there are a few ways that you can deal with them. You could treat them as an aspect, requiring someone to maneuver, and then invoke for effect. This makes it entirely up to the GM how effective the circle is, but is the easiest way to do it. You could also treat them as a lore based block against supernatural stuff. Also relatively easy, but a little off. Finally you could treat them as a ward ritual that falls under the common ritual trapping of lore. That one's a little harder to do, but has a much more concrete effect.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: ways and means on December 14, 2011, 09:31:30 PM

I allow circles to be used for wards on the fly (either with evothaum or enchanted items).

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: sinker on December 14, 2011, 09:39:27 PM

Meh, to be honest I'm starting to think that the common belief that thaumaturgy can't be used in conflict is something that we've actually made up here on the boards. I'm starting to catch a couple of references in the book that lead me to believe that as long as it requires no preparation (or requires no prep at that time) then it can be don in a similar time frame.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 14, 2011, 10:59:51 PM

As far as I know there are no actual rules for magic circles.

The entry for Thaumaturgy on YS page 181 says:

Quote

Thaumaturgy can't ever be used quickly enough to be much use in a fight.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: Becq on December 14, 2011, 11:16:14 PM

Circles are tough.  The fact that Butters can make one implies that they don't require much in the way of training, but their effectiveness is pretty strong.

I think wyvern is very close, though.  The one thing that's missing is that the compel that's triggered is against the monster's high concept.  So creating the circle is a maneuver creating a 'circle' aspect.  That aspect is then triggered for effect -- with the effect being that other characters who try to cross the circle are affected as appropriate to their high concept.  Mortals trying to cross?  No problem, and the effect ends because the circle was broken.  Ghosts trying to cross?  This would trigger a compel against their high concept.  Trying to resist this compel would probably require a Fate point and something along the lines of a test of the ghost's Discipline (or Conviction?) against the circle creator's Lore or Conviction (as archmagelite suggested).

And all this actually fits within the rules as written, too...

Summary: Drawing a circle is basically an invitation for the GM to compel affected creature's high concepts.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: sinker on December 15, 2011, 12:12:54 AM

@Santcaphax And yet there are examples of thaumaturgic rituals taking place in conflict. Weird.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 15, 2011, 12:28:08 AM

The rules are not totally consistent. It`s to be expected from an RPG of this size.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: zenten on December 15, 2011, 02:57:37 AM

@Sanctaphrax it says be of much use, not that it can never be done or that it will never be useful.  Using the default equipment that comes from your base Lore would be very difficult in a fight, and pulling off the sort of stuff required to raise the complexity would be even harder.

But if a wizard wants to spend a bunch of fate points invoking various aspects to raise the complexity above zero and roll at a rate of one roll per exchange I see nothing wrong with using thaumaturgy in a fight.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: ARedthorn on December 15, 2011, 08:48:19 AM

Simplest solution- Conviction based block against all non-mortal forces.

This is, in terms of game effect, much like a ward, without being high-magic.
Lets mortals throw one off if they know how, and have the focus of mind to do it.
The various references to summoning (both in the books and in the rpg book) suggest strongly that circles aren't perfect- sometimes, things can break through if your attention wavers or your will simply isn't up to the task of what's being held in... as a block, it can fail, but rarely will... and is perfectly suited to conviction (maybe discipline?).
Anything that gets past a block negates it completely- so mortal will + physical action across the circle breaks it just like a block.

I might go a step farther and let it get some bonuses from things like blood (inflict P stress on self to improve block), or perhaps even a flat +2 to block strength to represent that you don't need a massive Knight-of-the-Cross level Conviction score to be able to fend off a lower demon with one.


The problem with handling it in terms of a maneuver is that you only get one free compel against the critter's supernatural high-concept... and then you're pretty well boned. While this can represent the "circles can fail" mentioned above, I don't think it does so well, or fairly... especially in circumstances where there are several attacks against the circle at once from multiple weak sources, as opposed to a single massive blow from an arch-demon.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: noom777 on December 15, 2011, 02:18:54 PM

Is it possible for a circle to be broken by a throwing object?For example a demon thowing a chair to the occupants of the circle.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: computerking on December 15, 2011, 03:08:49 PM

Quote from: noom777 on December 15, 2011, 02:18:54 PM

Is it possible for a circle to be broken by a throwing object?For example a demon thowing a chair to the occupants of the circle.

A demon? I think only if it's strong enough (As per whatever Circle strength conventions your group agrees on). A mortal should be able to do it easier.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: Silverblaze on December 15, 2011, 05:23:07 PM

I think it may be important to look at types of circles.

In Fool Moon we learn of three.

Circles against beings made of flesh.

Circles made against beings of spirit.

Circles made of things that are both spirit and flesh. (very complex according to Harry)

We also know a magic circle can be set/made/drawn to stop magical energies.

I have contemplated the possibility of a circle against inanimate objects only. I could see how marcone might want one to stop bullets etc.  (Not sure if it is possible, but i don't think that it would break a game or destroy the feel of the game.)

We also know circles are easiest broken from the inside.  In Storm Front harry tells Susan not to cross the barrier of the circle.

I also wonder if a circle has a "roof" or a "floor".

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: devonapple on December 15, 2011, 06:01:18 PM

Quote from: Silverblaze on December 15, 2011, 05:23:07 PM

I also wonder if a circle has a "roof" or a "floor".

I visualize them being vaguely lozenge shaped, with a domed roof and floor extending maybe 10 feet in either direction.

I imagine that if they didn't have a roof or floor, canny supernatural creatures with flight would be bypassing them regularly, and such circles would have ceased to be a reliable form of defense.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 15, 2011, 07:04:54 PM

Personally I like the idea of combat Thaumaturgy. But the idea that it isn't possible has a sound basis.

No matter what method you use, the rule there says that the result has to be more or less useless.

I'd be inclined to ignore that, though.

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: Richard_Chilton on December 15, 2011, 10:54:20 PM

Quote from: noom777 on December 15, 2011, 02:18:54 PM

Is it possible for a circle to be broken by a throwing object?For example a demon thowing a chair to the occupants of the circle.

No - at least not in the setting as written.

There are many spots where Dresden mentions that a being that can be imprisoned in a circle cannot throw something through it but anyone with freewill can - and that breaks the circle.

Spoilers for Turn Coat:

(click to show/hide)

The encounter with Binder in Turn Coat comes to mind.  Surrounded by summoned things that can't cross a threshold the circle is safe, but their summoner (Binder) could break the circle.  And if Murphy shot from the circle, that would break the circle.

Then every summoned being is treated as if it had just crossed a threshold because a circle was established around them - destroying them. 

And yes - there are a few things in the early books that break the rules here (Bob tossing a potion through an active magic circle) but the first three books... well, they have consistency problems (including how one of the characters changed her name between her appearance in book 1 and discussion about her in book 3).  There are WoJs out there to effect of "Oops - I missed a few things back then".

Then there are the problems that editors created.  In my copy of Grave Peril it clearly says that the While Council was the group behind Stroker - but later printers have it corrected to White Court.

Richard

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: Tedronai on December 16, 2011, 12:20:51 AM

Quote from: Silverblaze on December 15, 2011, 05:23:07 PM

We also know circles are easiest broken from the inside.  In Storm Front harry tells Susan not to cross the barrier of the circle.

That's not a matter of 'inside' vs 'outside', but of Free Will.
Susan, a creature with Free Will, could break the circle, but the demon could not (at least not easily).
If the circle had been drawn around the demon instead of around Susan, the situation would have been no different.

Further, most circles seem to be designed (possibly by intent only, with no physical representation) to protect only from a particular direction.
ie. a given circle might hold something in, or it might hold something out, but it will not do both (though concentric circles might)

Title: Re: Magic circles.
Post by: Becq on December 16, 2011, 01:52:55 AM

Quote from: ARedthorn on December 15, 2011, 08:48:19 AM

The problem with handling it in terms of a maneuver is that you only get one free compel against the critter's supernatural high-concept... and then you're pretty well boned. While this can represent the "circles can fail" mentioned above, I don't think it does so well, or fairly... especially in circumstances where there are several attacks against the circle at once from multiple weak sources, as opposed to a single massive blow from an arch-demon.

Not exactly.  You only get one free tag to represent a momentary advantage, but if it's a scene aspect, it stays on the scene and can have impact through GM compels.  In this case, the scene aspect represents a "game fact" that the GM should take into acount via compels as appropriate.

For example, let's say I performed a maneuver to start a fire in a field of dry grass.  This would set up a scene aspect "Brush Fire!", and this aspect's effects would not be limited to a single free tag, after which the fire has no effect.  The originator would get a free tag to reflect a momentary advantage, but the aspect would stay on the scene, potentially generating GM compels against everyone present as the fire began to spread out of control.  Appropriate compels might be fear-based reflecting self-preservation urges to avoid the fire, and environmental damage might well be appropriate for anyone who chooses to stay in the burning field.  All of this for the cost of a maneuver and a match or lighter; no Fate cost at all.

I would model circles similarly.  Basically, you use an action to draw a circle, conting this as either a maneuver or as justification for a declaration to create the scene aspect "Magical Circle Drawn Around Us" or something like that.  The aspect now represents the fact that there is a circle protecting those inside it from entities that are affected by circles.  At this point, the protection of the circle has little to do with the aspect, instead it is a function of the high concept of those creatures who by nature have issues crossing magical boundaries.  So you don't need to tag the aspect to ward off, for example, a ghost -- the GM should be expected to compel the ghost's high concept to reflect that it can't cross the circle.  The ghost might move on, looking for easier prey, or it could choose to lurk nearby until the circle weakened (in about a scene's worth of time).  Non-supernatural creatures would be entirely unaffected by the circle, because their high concepts do not include any such weakness.  They could also break the circle.  Creatures in between -- with more substance but enough supernatural nature to be repelled by circles -- could either accept the compel and be held at bay or flee, or might be able to buy off the compel.  (If the creator of the circle had been concentrating on holding the circle, it might not be unreasonable to rule that this counts as a (standard, not evocation-style) block, based on the creator's Lore.  Until the block breaks, those in the circle would be aided by the block against affected creatures that attacked them.  (Alternatively, Conviction or Discipline might be allowed instead of Lore.)

What gives someone this capability?
* One option is to treat this as a common ability costing nothing to do -- ie, you're just drawing a circle, and if your maneuver/declaration roll works, then the circle has power over creatures that don't deal well with such things.
* You could also rule that the circle on its own is just chalk, and that powering it requires 'will' in the form of 1 mental stress (like casting a spell).
* Or you could treat this as a case of 'borrowing' a lesser version of Thaumaturgy (call it "Minor Ritual [-1]" granting access to a single ritual -- in this case a Thaumaturgical maneuver creating the scene aspect above).  In this case, you'd spend a Fate point to borrow the power, then use it to cast the spell creating the circle.
* Or it's a stunt (allow people to spend a Fate point to borrow it) that adds a trapping to Lore, allowing it to make magic circles via declaration (possibly requiring mental stress as well).

I think that any of these are 'valid', its up to the group to decide which feels best.  I think I like the last option, which (when simplified) means that you spend a Fate point, mark off a mental stress box, and make a Lore declaration, then the GM compels creatures that should be compelled.  (If you fail the declaration, you can keep trying at the cost of additional mental stress; the Fate point already spent grants access to the 'stunt' for the scene.)  I'd also probably allow Conviction or Discipline to be used instead of Lore.  As an option, characters could actually buy the stunt (and not need to spend the Fate point to borrow it), but I wouldn't expect this to be common.