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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: noom777 on December 06, 2011, 10:28:44 AM

Title: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: noom777 on December 06, 2011, 10:28:44 AM
Good evening!
I am a new GM at the DFRPG and I have a question about a player who wants to create a focused parctitioner character.
My question is:is it possible when you create the focused practitioner at the Up to your Waist power level with 7 refresh to buy channeling(one of the musts) and thaumaturgy to start with or a practitioner doesn't have access to thaumaturgy and evocation till he grows up by exercising?
Also,if for example a player uses a fireball spell to attack a monster, what skilla the monster will roll for defence?
Thank you very much for your support!
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: citadel97501 on December 06, 2011, 11:53:10 AM
Happy to help.  Well lets start by organizing your questions a bit so their easier to answer. 

Question 1
Can you make a character that improves Channeling, to Evocation; or Ritual to Thaumaturgy. 

Answer 1
Yes although not mentioned in the books, this is usually how you would define someone who is nearly done with their apprenticeship.  I believe this may be in Molly Carpenter's side bar in the Our Story book. 

Question 2
Which defense do you use versus spells. 

Answer 2
Whichever seems the most logical for the spell, dodging a fireball is probably Athletics, however you can get any number of odd spell effects such as requiring Endurance to be the defense against a sleep spell, or Might to resist against a spell to make someone so heavy their bones shatter. 

This is one of those great things about Evocation. 
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Watson on December 06, 2011, 11:53:44 AM
Hello and welcome to the DF forum!

Accordign to the rules, a Focused Practitioner is not allowed to take Thaumaturgy (or more specifically, the template "Focused Practitioner" is not allowed to do so). But what is allowed and not allowed at your table is up to you - I as a GM would allow it.

The default defence skill for most physical attacks (including Evocation) is Athletics.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Richard_Chilton on December 06, 2011, 02:11:59 PM
It depends on how seriously you take the Template system.  In the Rules as Written (usually called RAW on this board) and in the setting as written, most focused practitioners don't go beyond their starting plateau.  There's even a scene in Dead Beat where Harry is listing off a bunch of the regulars at Mac's and he includes a bunch old men who were okay with spells but would never hit White Council level because they lacked the inborn talent to get their magic to that level.

So using the RAW and setting, a Focused Practitioner's magical advancement is limited.  But if you want to use the template as a starting point and say "because we're starting at this level and you can't start as a wizard I'll let you expand your powers later" then that's fine.  It works to the spirit of the rules, just not the letter.

As for defending, it depends on what they're defending against.  Is there really much of a difference between defending from a bullet and defending from a blast of fire? No, so the defense for both is the same.  You might want to look through the spells in the book - most of them have a "defended against by" bit in their write up and that should give you an idea of what skill to use when spells are being tossed around.

Richard
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: noom777 on December 06, 2011, 05:02:30 PM
Thank you very much all of you!!!
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: citadel97501 on December 11, 2011, 05:46:33 AM
I would also point out that the book Ghost Story, specifically shows that Harry Dresden had been underestimating a certain Focused Practitioner quite a bit. 
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Tedronai on December 11, 2011, 05:56:24 AM
Further, given that that particular Focused Practitioner has featured prominently in Dresden's analysis of the capabilities of such individuals, that the novels are based off of Dresden's observations, that the RPG is based off of the novels not including the events of Ghost Story, nor of the reassessments that Harry was forced to undertake as a result, it is safe to assume that the RPG restrictions on focused practitioners might be an inaccurate portrayal of their hypothetical capabilities within the canon setting.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: UmbraLux on December 11, 2011, 05:34:16 PM
My question is:is it possible when you create the focused practitioner at the Up to your Waist power level with 7 refresh to buy channeling(one of the musts) and thaumaturgy to start with or a practitioner doesn't have access to thaumaturgy and evocation till he grows up by exercising?
Templates are starting points to assist character creation.  They are not limits on character growth or advancement.  (D&D style classes don't exist in DFRPG.)  In other words, yes it is possible to buy powers not on your starting template's list.

Quote
Also,if for example a player uses a fireball spell to attack a monster, what skilla the monster will roll for defence?
In general, you roll the skill which fits the situation.  For most ranged attacks it's going to be Athletics to dodge.  However, if a character is hiding and an attacker is throwing out random area attacks, you might well choose to use Stealth as the defense.  Just one possibility of many...
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Katarn on December 11, 2011, 06:09:21 PM
If you're trying to strictly follow Dresden's progressing narration, then I see one of two routes:

The Apprentice.  You're learning your first element (ie Harry learning Fire from Justin), and you have Channeling.  As he gets older, he learns more elements (upgrade to Evocation).  Storywise, this makes a lot of sense w/ game progression.

Set in My Ways.  If you're playing an older character, it's a reasonable assumption that they are "set" in their ways, and cannot learn more diverse magic (like trying to learn an additional language when you're older is harder).  THIS IS COMPLETELY GM/PLAYER's DISCRETION.

Basically, look at how far the game is going to progress, and in what direction, and if the player may want to diversify, and decide if "Set in My Ways" fits your campaign.  If it doesn't, drop it.  Your Game, Your Rules.


(as for the defense, basically what others have said- Atheletics to dodge, endurance to brush off the hit, counterspell if applicable)
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Richard_Chilton on December 11, 2011, 08:29:10 PM
Templates are starting points to assist character creation.  They are not limits on character growth or advancement.

Are you sure about that? Maybe I've missed something in the rules (it's been a while since I carefully went over the creation rules) but Templates are Templates.  That said, as long as the table agrees to stretch things then what's the harm?

Richard
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: UmbraLux on December 11, 2011, 08:54:54 PM
Are you sure about that? Maybe I've missed something in the rules (it's been a while since I carefully went over the creation rules) but Templates are Templates. 
Yep, don't think templates are even mentioned in the character advancement section.  Yet it does mention the potential of completely rewriting characters, including high concepts.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: zenten on December 11, 2011, 09:40:38 PM
In my game there was a PC that started out as a focused practitioner.  She later upgraded to sorcerer, and now is a wizard (although according to the White Council she hasn't finished her apprentaceship yet).
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: sinker on December 11, 2011, 11:50:19 PM
At the very least there are cannon examples of people breaking away from their template. As of the most recent books Billy no longer fits the Were-form template.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: citadel97501 on December 12, 2011, 03:10:46 AM
At the very least there are cannon examples of people breaking away from their template. As of the most recent books Billy no longer fits the Were-form template.

When the hell did that happen?  Give me a page or chapter, I may need to re-read Ghost Story?
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Katarn on December 12, 2011, 05:07:13 AM
When the hell did that happen?  Give me a page or chapter, I may need to re-read Ghost Story?

"Aftermath" Side Jobs.  He has an ability that isn't in the original template- I wouldn't call it a total deviation from the Werewolf, merely a new trick.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Richard_Chilton on December 12, 2011, 05:10:24 AM
He added modular abilities - where he can be fast OR heal.  Still in the shapeshifting family of power.

Richard
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: sinker on December 12, 2011, 05:43:41 AM
Yes, but not technically part of the were-form template, as firstly modular abilities is not an optional or a must, and secondly the template allows only two of inhuman speed/strength/toughness/recovery.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: devonapple on December 12, 2011, 10:51:13 PM
I agree that Templates are guidelines. They are *good* guidelines if you want to portray something in the fictional setting, mind you, and I'm seldom if ever going to recommend a player pick and choose which Musts they are going to honor. But even then, they are just starting points, and should never be considered a limitation on what a character can eventually build themselves up to be.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Becq on December 12, 2011, 11:05:54 PM
Some thoughts:

First, templates *are* supposed to be fairly solid.  That is, your template (and high concept) are supposed to govern which powers you have access to.  A Werewolf that gains some spare refresh (or who has some to spare to begin with) can opt to take on appropriate 'optional' powers listed on the template with very little justification -- those powers are options for the template.  But the same Werewolf can't simply sprout Evocation, regardless of how many refresh have been gained.

That said, you have several options for going beyond the templates.  One option is to change to a new template or add a second template to your character.  This would require a roleplay justification, and would also require you changing your high concept to fit your new template(s).  So you might start as a Focused Practitioner, then meet a Sorceror who agrees to mentor you; add the Sorceror template as

A second option is to use custom templates.  In some cases this might look a lot like the first option.  For example, an 'Apprentice Magician' template might have the same powers as a Focused Practitioner listed as "Musts", and the "Must" powers from the Sorcerer or Wizard template as "Options".  I would only allow the powers listed as "Options" on the second template to be bought after filling out all of the "Musts" on that template.  So the Apprentice Wizard couldn't start buying Refinements until he finishes learning all of the fundamentals -- or in other words, until he could legally replace his Apprentice Wizard template with the full Wizard template.

One thing to be careful of when creating templates is to keep a semblance of balance.  So no jack-of-all-trades templates with "Musts: whatever I feel like paying for now" and "Options: anything I feel the need to train later".
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: UmbraLux on December 12, 2011, 11:38:49 PM
First, templates *are* supposed to be fairly solid.  That is, your template (and high concept) are supposed to govern which powers you have access to.  A Werewolf that gains some spare refresh (or who has some to spare to begin with) can opt to take on appropriate 'optional' powers listed on the template with very little justification -- those powers are options for the template.  But the same Werewolf can't simply sprout Evocation, regardless of how many refresh have been gained.
While I realize some groups play this way, I haven't seen any support for it in the text.  Have I missed something?  As noted previously, I wasn't able to find any mention of templates in the character advancement section at all.

The book does state templates are "crucial" to character creation...but they don't seem to matter much afterwards.  Which makes sense given the growth of characters in later novels. 
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: sinker on December 12, 2011, 11:50:08 PM
Oddly enough if you strictly stick to the templates there's actually no way to create something that many of us have done at least once and is considered cannon: The scion. There is no template appropriate for a scion. Changeling is closest, but technically not right as their one must relates to the fey specifically.

To be completely honest I stopped caring about templates after my first game. My last few characters have been without one. Generally one's high concept is fine for guidelines, as all powers must relate directly. They don't really do anything beneficial unless you're new and unsure what you might want to play.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Becq on December 13, 2011, 08:19:57 PM
While I realize some groups play this way, I haven't seen any support for it in the text.  Have I missed something?  As noted previously, I wasn't able to find any mention of templates in the character advancement section at all.

The book does state templates are "crucial" to character creation...but they don't seem to matter much afterwards.  Which makes sense given the growth of characters in later novels.
Here are a couple of quotes:
Quote from: YS66
You must take all of the powers that are mandatory for the character template you’re using, so make sure you have those figured out first. After that, you may only take powers that fit your character template and the high concept selected for your character—a vampire can take powers that would give him supernatural strength and speed, but a wizard cannot.
Quote from: YS158
Supernatural powers also come at a greater price beyond the simple math of your character’s refresh rate. No supernatural ability may exist in a vacuum—it must come about due to specific reasons rooted in your character’s concept. At the very least, this usually means that the supernatural abilities must clearly derive from your character’s high concept (page 54), but other requirements may exist as well—see the Types & Templates chapter starting on page 72 for the particulars for each character type. The end effect is that all supernatural abilities have requirements that must be fulfilled before they can be added to your character; these are usually outlined in the template you have chosen for your character.
As to Scions, they are a custom template, with the Changeling presented as an example.  And even "Changeling" is more of a meta-template; any given Changeling doesn't necessary have access to all of the options listed in the Changeling template (which is why the options section says the following, in effect requiring the Changeling template to be further tailored:
Quote from: YS74
During character creation, you and your GM must work out a set of supernatural powers that the character could inherit from his faerie parent (usually by looking at the list of musts and options for the appropriate faerie template in What Goes Bump).
Other Scions templates would behave the same way: you create a list of potential powers that are appropriate to the Scion based on his heritage, and the Scion can choose powers from that list to start with, and draw further powers from them later as the Scion's heritage begins to make itself more apparent.

And, as I pointed out before, another option is to add a further template to your character; I see this as starting by adding an 'apprentice' version of the template, with all of the 'musts' treated as 'options' and the 'options' unavailable until the 'musts' are filled out.

Note: the following paragraph contains some possible spoilers for those still reading the series.  I've put spoiler marks on the information that this board considers to be spoilers, but those still reading the series might want to skip the following anyway.

For example, Dresden has dabbled with several added templates.  In Summer Knight, he effectively borrowed (temporarily) from the Emissary of Power (Winter Court) or Knight of a Faerie Court (Winter) template, taking the Marked by Power -- and Mab offered to make it a more permanent arrangement.  I think it was in Dead Beat that he began using Hellfire; he was basically delving into a template that would probably count as either Emissary of Power (The Fallen).  In Small Favor, he moves on to Emissary of Power (Uriel), learning Soulfire.  And later, in Changes,
(click to show/hide)
  In Ghost Story, of course,
(click to show/hide)

End possible spoiler zone.

So to summarize, my take is that each templates is meant to be fairly firm, but that there is lots of room for flexibility in creating new templates (which in turn should be firm and reasonably created), and also in taking multiple templates.

@sinker: To a large extent, high concept = template.  So long as you're reasonable in what powers you consider "related directly" to your high concept, then you are basically implementing a template; after all, template creation is basically a matter of making those decisions in advance and writing down the results.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Tedronai on December 13, 2011, 11:15:47 PM
That 'other requirements may exist' (bolding added) is hardly strong evidence that templates are meant to be absolute, and, as said, the prior quote comes from character creation, not advancement.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Becq on December 13, 2011, 11:56:32 PM
That 'other requirements may exist' (bolding added) is hardly strong evidence that templates are meant to be absolute, and, as said, the prior quote comes from character creation, not advancement.
Did you read the entire quote?  The portion you quoted was the exception to the general rule given in the previous half of the sentence, which was that, "supernatural abilities must clearly derive from your character’s high concept".

Here's another quote, by the way, from the advancement section:

Quote from: YS92
Keep in mind that, just because you’re volunteering to take your refresh to zero or beyond, it doesn’t mean that all of Supernatural Powers becomes a shopping list. The restrictions of your high concept still apply

Given that this is taken from the extreme end of advancement, "Going Off the Deep End", its hard to see how the same rule wouldn't apply to earlier stages of advancement.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: UmbraLux on December 14, 2011, 01:33:43 AM
Here are a couple of quotes:
Neither quote is about Character Advancement.  The first is from the Character Creation section where it does call templates "crucial".  The second quote is from the Supernatural Powers section and appears to be targeted at concepts more than templates.  In any case, it's a positive "must justify" statement and not a proscriptive one.

Don't think the Scion stuff was addressed to me...if it was, let me know.

Functionally, I'm not sure there's much difference between 'templates only being a starting point' and 'being able to freely add or switch out templates'.  If not, are we just disagreeing over terminology?
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Anher on December 14, 2011, 01:37:39 AM
I think the templates are merely places for you to start and not a be all end all list of what you can and can't do. Even under the Power Level list under Submerged (YS 54) it says; '...or a Werewolf who can do earth evocations, or a Red Court Infected who becomes an Emissary of the Buddha...'. So, yeah, I seriously think they're just a place to begin the character and not a straight jacket for advancement.

Now, on to the first question, yes, you certainly can start with Channeling and/or Rituals and step up to Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy. Heck, it mentions that starting as an FP is a good way to portray an apprentice Wizard in the sidebar on page 86 of YS.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: zenten on December 14, 2011, 03:46:53 AM
I see templates as defining what you can take, but you can change templates or have multiple ones.  The difference is that the GM is much more likely to say no to a custom template than taking powers allowed within one.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Tedronai on December 14, 2011, 04:19:28 AM
Did you read the entire quote?  The portion you quoted was the exception to the general rule given in the previous half of the sentence, which was that, "supernatural abilities must clearly derive from your character’s high concept".

Did you read my entire post?  Did you note that the issue of high concept was in no way addressed, nor at all affected, by the point(s) made therein?
I only stated that the provided quotes are not strong evidence for templates being strict limits.  Justification under high concept is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Becq on December 14, 2011, 09:17:05 PM
Did you read my entire post?  Did you note that the issue of high concept was in no way addressed, nor at all affected, by the point(s) made therein?
I only stated that the provided quotes are not strong evidence for templates being strict limits.  Justification under high concept is another matter entirely.
Right back at you.  In my original post, I stated my view that high concept = template.  You must link your high concept to you template (or each of your templates, if you have multiples).  All a template is is a written list of all of the powers that are justified for a particular concept.  So saying that templates aren't strict limits but that high concepts are is semantics; the 'Wizard' template comprises a list of all of the powers that a 'Wizard' high concept justifies.  Its kind of a chicken and egg relationship.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: sinker on December 14, 2011, 09:35:45 PM
To be honest Becq it does seem odd to me that you would insist on having a template, but then be ok with custom templates (which could in theory be just as unbalanced as not having one) and multiple templates.

But your goal seems fine to me. As far as I can tell you just want people to define what they want before hand so that you can plan for it or compare it to others in your group. The only real difference for me is that I know my group is on top of that on their own, so I don't worry about it.

They're both valid viewpoints, and will work better or worse depending on the group.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Becq on December 14, 2011, 09:52:01 PM
Neither quote is about Character Advancement.  The first is from the Character Creation section where it does call templates "crucial".  The second quote is from the Supernatural Powers section and appears to be targeted at concepts more than templates.  In any case, it's a positive "must justify" statement and not a proscriptive one.
If you move down two posts, you'll see a quote from YS92, which is indeed Advancement.  It makes it very clear that a new power that takes a character to 0 refresh can only be chosen from the same, 'justified' list of powers (aka template).
Quote
Functionally, I'm not sure there's much difference between 'templates only being a starting point' and 'being able to freely add or switch out templates'.  If not, are we just disagreeing over terminology?
To some extent.  However, adding a new template requires changing your high concept to include the new template, and might also have some additional prerequisites, depending on the template.  And in Fate, a simple change to high concept can have a significant impact.  There's a huge amount of difference between these three (very simplified)characters:

Quote
HC: Pyromancer
-2 Channeling (Fire)
-2 Inhuman Strength
Quote
HC: Pyromancer Squire to the Winter Knight
-2 Channeling (Fire)
-2 Inhuman Strength
Quote
HC: Biomancy-Enhanced Pyromancer
-2 Channeling (Fire)
-2 Inhuman Strength
The first one (which I believe to violate the game design) gives no indication what the source of one of the character's powers is.  We know he is a practicioner of mortal magic, but the strength has no justification.

The second one creates a link to a source of the inhuman strength.  This character not only has mortal magic, but also owes a measure of allegiance to the Winter Court.  His high concept can be compelled to hex tech items, and can also be compelled to provide service to the Winter Knight (and on the positive side can be used to boost rolls that involve either Pyromancy or his role/training as a squire).  Furthermore, as Squire to the Winter Knight, he has justification (and possibly even a responsibility) to begin learning other powers that a full Winter Knight must know (ie, the Knight template).  In time, him might become the Winter Knight (taking on that full template and adjusting his high concept).

The third one shows that the character has been subjected to Biomancy.  But from whom, given that he has no Thaumaturgical knowledge?  Wardens might be very interested to find out.  And Biomancy doesn't always produce results that are fully as reliable as those produced by nature (or rather, supernature).  Both of these factors might produce compels.

Three characters, all with the same powers, but who play very differently.  This is (in my opinion) why the template and high concept designs shouldn't be simply brushed off and ignored.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Becq on December 14, 2011, 10:11:53 PM
To be honest Becq it does seem odd to me that you would insist on having a template, but then be ok with custom templates (which could in theory be just as unbalanced as not having one) and multiple templates.
They absolutely can be, and peer review is the answer to that.  Ie, the GM/table judges whether or not the custom template is reasonable.  Existing templates should be used as guidelines.

For example, a template that is basically a Focused Practitioner but with unlimited Refinement and the option to take Red Court Infected powers without requiring Feeding Dependency and the forced upgrade to full RCV ... well, that is probably not a reasonable template (or even combination of templates) even with a high concept that covers all of that stuff.

As a less extreme example, an "Apprentice Wizard" template that has the musts of a Focused Practitioner plus the Wizard template musts as options is probably reasonable ... but the Wizard options (ie, Refinement) shouldn't be 'justified' until all of the Wizard musts are bought.

Writing down the custom template in advance is useful because it guarantees that everyone is on the same page from the very start.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: UmbraLux on December 14, 2011, 10:18:12 PM
@Becq - Your character's High Concept does (or at least should) guide choices of powers available.  I haven't said differently.  But High Concept != template.  You appear to be conflating the two.  Page 92 requires new powers to fit the concept...if it mentions templates I'm still missing it.  (Quite possible at the moment, I'm working off a pdf.) 
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 14, 2011, 10:18:37 PM
I don't care about templates at all.

Adding an extra element to the balance of the game strikes me as a foolish idea. This is not a class system the way that D&D is, and I don't think you should try and make it into one.

The benefits of the template system listed by Becq can also be obtained from the basic rules for aspects and powers.

And worrying about the balance of custom templates is mildly insane given the incredible freedom of the Scion, Emissary Of Power, and Changeling templates and the incredible potential power of the Focused Practitioner template.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Quackerjack on December 14, 2011, 10:53:47 PM
Templates are a good guideline, but nothing more in our group.
Title: Re: Focused Practitioner.Defending against a spell.
Post by: Tedronai on December 15, 2011, 01:12:53 AM
Page 92 requires new powers to fit the concept...if it mentions templates I'm still missing it.

No, he's just conflating the two.