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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Watson on September 30, 2011, 10:34:15 AM

Title: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Watson on September 30, 2011, 10:34:15 AM
How would you model the redirection spell that Harry tried out (the one that was prevented by a certain female character)?

PS. Is there any thread where more spells from the books are modelled in the game (like the examples in the rule book)? If not, it would be a perfect thing to do - might even be perfect as a Resource. DS.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Tsunami on September 30, 2011, 10:46:45 AM
Quote from: Watson on September 30, 2011, 10:34:15 AM
How would you model the redirection spell that Harry tried out (the one that was prevented by a certain female character)?
A little more to go on would be nice.



Generally i would model something like redirecting an incoming spell as a redirected block.
Use a Block to defend against the incoming spell, then redirect the block energy into an offensive spell.
Describe at leisure as a redirected hostile spell.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Watson on September 30, 2011, 10:53:58 AM
Quote from: Tsunami on September 30, 2011, 10:46:45 AM
A little more to go on would be nice.

Absolutely - When Harry tries to redirect the...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Tsunami on September 30, 2011, 11:25:26 AM
Quote from: Watson on September 30, 2011, 10:53:58 AM
Absolutely - When Harry tries to redirect the...
(click to show/hide)
Oh, that's simply a ward. Read up on Wards on YS:276.
That's straight up what wards do, they block an incoming attack and bounce it back on the source.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: devonapple on September 30, 2011, 05:15:32 PM
Quote from: Tsunami on September 30, 2011, 11:25:26 AM
Oh, that's simply a ward. Read up on Wards on YS:276.
That's straight up what wards do, they block an incoming attack and bounce it back on the source.

Wards are indeed the right effect, but if we stick to the RAW, they may not have been an option in that scene, owing to a potentially absent threshold.

I forget: did Harry address whether or not he was able to satisfy the "threshold" requirement of a ward in that scene when he put that thaumaturgical effect together?
Should we take it as read that he did the same in that scene, but it was off-camera?

I know later in the series, Harry made a big deal about laying a metaphysical framework to substitute for a natural threshold to which he could attach the wards he put on the shelter he had built.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: sinker on September 30, 2011, 06:02:19 PM
Meh, as we've discussed recently in another thread, a ward doesn't need a threshold (as defined as the boundary built up around a home by those living in it) necessarily, it needs a boundary. I'd say that the walls of a building constitute a boundary.

Evil Acts (the just released DFRPG casefile) spoilers:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: devonapple on September 30, 2011, 07:12:22 PM
Quote from: sinker on September 30, 2011, 06:02:19 PM
Meh, as we've discussed recently in another thread, a ward doesn't need a threshold (as defined as the boundary built up around a home by those living in it) necessarily, it needs a boundary. I'd say that the walls of a building constitute a boundary.

Cool. I have been away from the boards for a few weeks owing to gaming convention craziness. Can you link me to that article, please?
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: computerking on September 30, 2011, 07:40:01 PM
Quote from: devonapple on September 30, 2011, 07:12:22 PM
Cool. I have been away from the boards for a few weeks owing to gaming convention craziness. Can you link me to that article, please?

We're talking about it in this thread:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29204.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29204.0.html)
And we're also talking about "Conceptual Boundaries". For example, what if Harry had used the conceptual boundary between the "real world", and the artificial, imaginary world of a movie set (Even a porn set requires a little bit of suspension of disbelief)...
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on September 30, 2011, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: devonapple on September 30, 2011, 05:15:32 PM
I forget: did Harry address whether or not he was able to satisfy the "threshold" requirement of a ward in that scene when he put that thaumaturgical effect together?
Should we take it as read that he did the same in that scene, but it was off-camera?

Wards can be anchored to things other than threshold - but they are most effective when anchored to a threshold.  The chalk lines were anchoring the ward and when they were removed the ward was rendered useless.

Richard
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: devonapple on September 30, 2011, 07:52:48 PM
Quote from: computerking on September 30, 2011, 07:40:01 PM
We're talking about it in this thread:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29204.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29204.0.html)

Are you sure sinker wasn't perhaps referring to another thread? This one doesn't seem to me to be about the same thing.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: UmbraLux on September 30, 2011, 08:22:18 PM
I think he was referring to the "Noob Questions" thread.  It wanders into wards several pages in.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: sinker on September 30, 2011, 08:38:11 PM
Sorry Devonapple, the ward talk specifically starts right here.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28950.msg1250164.html#msg1250164
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: devonapple on September 30, 2011, 08:43:52 PM
I remember that thread now - thank you!
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on September 30, 2011, 10:19:26 PM
How would people model the specific-ness of this ward? It seems to me that reflecting a single spell only ought to be easier than providing broad protection.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: UmbraLux on September 30, 2011, 11:33:21 PM
Since you don't need it to last long, it wouldn't be too difficult.  Being thaumaturgy, it also has the advantage of not (necessarily) causing stress.

That said, it would be nice to have a similar capability with evocation.  What do you think Reflection should cost?  A two shift add on to a block?  Two shifts might be enough if the block still has to beat the attack's power (as a ward does), but not sure.  On the other hand, two shifts per spell reflected seems a bit much.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on October 01, 2011, 01:27:43 AM
Quote from: UmbraLux on September 30, 2011, 11:33:21 PM
Since you don't need it to last long, it wouldn't be too difficult.  Being thaumaturgy, it also has the advantage of not (necessarily) causing stress.

That said, it would be nice to have a similar capability with evocation.  What do you think Reflection should cost?  A two shift add on to a block?  Two shifts might be enough if the block still has to beat the attack's power (as a ward does), but not sure.  On the other hand, two shifts per spell reflected seems a bit much.

It would be nice but ward-like reflection is a bit overpowered for evocation.  If you had to aim it, like Harry's bank shot with bullets trick in the Deeps, that would be another story entirely.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: devonapple on October 01, 2011, 02:30:23 AM
Neither of these suggestions are particularly RAW-compatible, but they may be acceptable stretches:

I wonder if the best way to emulate Spell Reflection with the purpose of returning the attack to the original caster would be to allow an Evocation spell to simultaneously produce a Counterspell (to keep from getting hurt by the original spell) and a Maneuver (to tag for a bonus to make casting the "reflected" spell easier, or to tag to say the spell automatically hits, or something).

Otherwise, one could use EvoThaum to produce a temporary Ward to do the same thing.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Belial666 on October 01, 2011, 11:32:27 AM
1) Baleful Transposition; a spell that targets you and the caster and forcibly moves one in the place of the other. Ready an action to do it vs spells, put it on a defensive item or use thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation to put it as a ward/landmine. It has the added advantage that you don't need to beat the enemy attack; only make a strong enough spell to move them around.

2) Insidious Redirection; use mindmagic to make the other wizard think he's attacking you when he's attacking himself and think he's attacking himself when he's attacking you. That could be a mental block. It could also be a veil deceiving all senses, if you got enough shifts for it. Or even a takeout with mind magic - but if you've taken someone out, why do you need to deceive them that way?

3) Hijack Magic; you use transformation magic on an oncoming spell (usually requiring thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation or a prepared landmine). If you beat both its power and control, you can transform it in some way. For example, you may control its target instead of the caster. Or, you can leave the target the same but transform the effect from an attack to a defensive buff.

4) Spell Turning; you got warding at the speed of evocation and thus can cast wards at a moment's notice. So you ward yourself vs magic, reflecting any magic weaker than your own ward.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on October 01, 2011, 12:50:56 PM
1) Thaumaturgy, not fast at all.

2) Fine with some tweaking but will get you Lawbreaker

3) Might actually be workable with some refining

4) The worst possible way you could do it without making magic reflection an always on power.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Belial666 on October 01, 2011, 01:06:44 PM
Actually, you can move people around with Evocation. All you need is a Might effect (strong wind, kinetic blast, magnetism, gravitic force) to push them around. You split the spell effect in two, applying only two shifts or so to yourself since you are not resisting it and the remaining shifts on the enemy. 6 shifts are almost certainly enough to forcibly move wizards around due to their usual lack of Might.

So #1 is the simplest, fastest way to do a reversal. You just don't reverse the attack but the position of the targets.  8)
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: ARedthorn on October 01, 2011, 02:45:17 PM
I like #3 best- hijacking- it gives some plot options (redirecting magic- like say, a massive bloodline curse), arguably cozies up with the reshaping magic sidebar (like turning a shield offensive if it hasn't been used yet), and could replace counterspelling with something a bit more useful, practical, and classically cinematic (it's a bit cliche turning an incoming fireball into a flock of doves, but it does make an impression).

It does need tweaking though to make it... well, both usable and not broken.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: devonapple on October 01, 2011, 04:18:34 PM
It could also just be easier to start with the existing RAW (specifically, the reshaping magic sidebar). If you are starting with a Shield that is:
a) strong enough to stop the incoming spell, and
b) has enough duration to last, then
c) you can end the spell early on the following round in order to redirect that energy.

The problem with (also, the desired effect of) spell reflection is getting something for free or incredibly cheap. In other game systems, spell reflection is a pretty powerful spell or ability. What folks usually want is one or more of the following:
a) an instant counterattack
b) preferably one that automatically hits
c) no personal energy expended
d) no personal skill involved (acts like a mirror)

As such, perhaps a GM could simply charge a premium in shifts for one or more of those advantages, on top of one's Shield spell. Or let the player pay those shifts out of the spell he's burning.

So, let's say Terry Preston has a Shield 8 up, with two rounds of effect (a 10-shift spell!), when Jerry Clanston attacks with an Evocation spell that only manages to scrape the shield (a 3-shift spell, and a Discipline check of 4 for a combined effect of 7 shifts - not enough to bypass T's Shield). T could opt to (for example):

Sacrifice 0 shifts of his Shield spell to simply counterattack next exchange with an Evocation:8 effect.
Sacrifice 2 shifts of his Shield spell to buy the ability to counterattack right now (moving one up on the Time chart).
Sacrifice 3+ shifts of his Shield to buy the Aspect "Surprise Counterattack" which he can tag to drop J's defense to 0.
Sacrifice X shifts to get other benefits.

So, T could instantly counterattack by burning his 8-shift Shield spell this exchange to get a 6-shift Evocation, and a 2-shift premium allowing him to attack this same exchange.
Or, T could have a better chance to hit by burning his 8-Shield spell next exchange to get a 5-shift Evocation, and a 3-shift premium to buy the Aspect "Surprise Counterattack" which he can tag to drop J's defense to 0.

How does this look?
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: MegaPuff75 on October 01, 2011, 06:09:50 PM
actually the first option goes against RAW. the reshaping magic sidebar refers to turning a spell with duration into a different kind of spell if it hasn't been used already that turn. As for the spell referred to in the OP I would probably model it as two separate spells one as a ward that only redirects the spell, maybe 4 or 5 shifts, and a second that reflects the spell, the price of which would be difficult to determine, but probably only like 10 shifts.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: devonapple on October 01, 2011, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: MegaPuff75 on October 01, 2011, 06:09:50 PM
actually the first option goes against RAW. the reshaping magic sidebar refers to turning a spell with duration into a different kind of spell if it hasn't been used already that turn.

::rereads that section:: That is the case. Thank you for the reminder.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on October 01, 2011, 08:34:21 PM
You'd really be better off just allowing a Lore (possibly assisted by Alertness) roll to notice when someone starts casting a thaumaturgic spell targeted in the immediate vicinity.  That way you're not having to reinvent the wheel in evocation since you have whatever time it takes the other caster to get your own bit of thaumaturgy to counteract it.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Tsunami on October 01, 2011, 08:43:57 PM
Quote from: UmbraLux on September 30, 2011, 11:33:21 PM
That said, it would be nice to have a similar capability with evocation.  What do you think Reflection should cost?  A two shift add on to a block?  Two shifts might be enough if the block still has to beat the attack's power (as a ward does), but not sure.  On the other hand, two shifts per spell reflected seems a bit much.

With evocation you'd need to, at the very least, sacrifice an action to do something like that.
If you really need something like that (personally i think it's a bit out of place) take a look at how Riposte works, and go from there.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on October 02, 2011, 02:50:31 AM
The thing that bugs me about the approaches suggested here is that they all require you to beat the power of the reflected spell. That seems incompatible with the book scenario, and it essentially means that making a ward to reflect one spell is a moron move.

After all, if you can create the 40ish shift ward needed to reflect a killing curse, are you really going to let it fade away after that one spell is dealt with? Heck no. Put some shifts into duration and you've got an incredibly strong fortress.

I think that wards made to stop/reflect one spell should be significantly easier than ordinary wards.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on October 02, 2011, 06:11:51 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on October 02, 2011, 02:50:31 AM
The thing that bugs me about the approaches suggested here is that they all require you to beat the power of the reflected spell. That seems incompatible with the book scenario, and it essentially means that making a ward to reflect one spell is a moron move.

After all, if you can create the 40ish shift ward needed to reflect a killing curse, are you really going to let it fade away after that one spell is dealt with? Heck no. Put some shifts into duration and you've got an incredibly strong fortress.

I think that wards made to stop/reflect one spell should be significantly easier than ordinary wards.

Fair point, unless you're warding something other than your home.  I could see circumstances where Harry might ward Casa de Wraith but he certainly wouldn't leave them the protection any longer than was necessary.

The book scenario wasn't a proper reflection though, it was a redirection.  I could see rule of thumbing redirection to half of the power of the incoming spell but have it be an instantaneous effect rather than a durable thing like a ward.  Or a quarter of the power and require a Discipline based contest between the two casters involved.  Give it standard thaumaturgic rules.  Line of sight unless you have some other means of targeting the redirected spell, etc...
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: Belial666 on October 02, 2011, 11:04:25 AM
OR, you could say reducing the base duration of a ward from one day to less will also decrease its cost. So reducing the duration from 1 day to a few moments reduces the power requirement by 9 shifts.
Title: Re: How to model the redirection spell from Blood Rites?
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on October 02, 2011, 12:05:08 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on October 02, 2011, 11:04:25 AM
OR, you could say reducing the base duration of a ward from one day to less will also decrease its cost. So reducing the duration from 1 day to a few moments reduces the power requirement by 9 shifts.

Really depends on if you're going for the ward Harry was trying to set up or the redirection he ended up using instead.  In the case of a ward, yeah it might very well make sense to allow reducing the duration in exchange for shifts.

For the redirection, it works easier if you think of it as an independent spell rather than a ward.  Wards default to a day but there's no reason a redirection should.  In fact, there's no reason it should default to anything but instant if you're essentially completing the spell as the bad mojo arrives.  Likewise, it doesn't make sense to have to pump as much power into nudging an incoming spell to a nearby target as you have to to oppose it power vs power.