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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JediDresden on September 24, 2011, 06:32:35 PM
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I believe that not all wizards take cold showers and such. A water Mage, or even a fire mage,could figure out a way to heat up water with out modern technology. A air Mage could probably figure out a way to harness lightning for power even. Anyone done things like this before. The whole candlelight thing is ok, but I just cannot imagine not having a hot shower. Any ideas on how to do this? I am looking for more background stuff for my wizard in an upcoming game. I just need to exlain how he can take hot showers.
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Well, a simple boiler would do. A water tank that is preheated and then you can mix hot and cold water in the shower, no big deal. You could heat it simply with a wood fire, or maybe a modern gas oven or some kind of magical heat transfer system. For example some copper rings embedded in the back of the fireplace linked to copies of them on the water tank, so they transfer excess heat from the fireplace to the water heater.
I kind of see Harry not doing so more as a form of self punishment than him actually not being able to get a hot shower. Despite an electrical water heater, there should be no problem whatsoever for other wizards.
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Damn, someone got there first. Same thoughts (coal would work better than wood), I figure Dresden's just lazy.
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Or you could just replace the water heater every so often. A wizard with more control than power and a bit of disposable income should have no problem with that.
Harry is exceptionally hex-prone and poor to boot. His situation is worse than what I would expect of an average young wizard.
So I wouldn't require any special justification.
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Use gas. Gas water heaters, gas lighting, gas stove, etc. It's technology that's been around for centuries and is still used today.
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Or maybe live somewhere that the water heater is far away from you? 3rd Floor walk-up sounds like adequate distance, if the heater's in the basement...
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The technology necessary to get hot running water is pretty minimal. You could go with some sort of raised cistern with a way to heat it and some sort of valve to regulate the flow. The rest is gravity. The sort of stuff you need has been around for centuries.
If you're in a warm and sunny enough environment, you can rely on the fact that sun light will heat up a metal cistern coloured black. You'll be restricted to using warm water at certain times of day, and it's not exactly going to spray out near boiling, but you can use this to take warm showers.
Or boil water in a pot over a fire and put it into a tub. The technology to do that has been around for a very, very long time. You don't even need moving parts to do this. If you can hex a pot or a tub, more power to you.
As for convenience, there are a number of options. The least convenient is to just do it yourself. If you're wealthy, hire someone. Or since you're a wizard, make a bargain with some wee faeries.
If you're comfortable using a wood stove for heat and boiling your hot water, you should be able to live a relatively modern life, even as a wizard. It's just going to look a little odd to normal people.
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Yeah he has a small bungalow on a beach in hawaii. Maybe a utility shed away from the house.
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This is where NatGeo is your friend :)
I saw a show a few years back about some kind of 'green housing' thing for students.
There they put together 3 shipping containers and insulated them all quite thoroughly. From that point on they heated the whole unit with a simple wood burning stove. And the pipes for the boiler also went through the stove heating the water without moving an electron (So to speak).
So yeah, hot water, definately possible even without using spells.
I'd not trust a modern boiler, even a gas one. There's quite a few nifty electronical bits in there that would muck things up pretty badly if they failed. Almost all that where made in the last 2 decades that I know of have a sort of thermal cutoff switch, which turns off the gas flow when the pilot light goes out. Jam that up and the next time you try to take a hot shower your house blows up.
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Take a bath instead.
Either heat the water on the stove or knock the chill off with evo.
Or thaum a rock to heat any water it comes into contact with to your preferred bath temperature, give it a reasonable duration, and renew it every so often. Just wait till the tub's full so you don't have to constantly deal with running water issues and store it either in a sealed box or outside so it doesn't heat the air by heating the water vapor in it.
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For that matter, a bit of thaumaturgy can go a long way if you're not worried about keeping your solution mundane. That heated rock could last years. So could a block of 'elemental' ice or a glowing crystal.
It may be emphasizing the fantasy more than many groups want...but it is a viable solution within the rules.
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If all else fails, raise your Resources way up and live in a swank hotel where you don't have to worry about it. You're far enough from the water heater it'll probably be fine for ages and anything that blows out in your suite will get replaced by the hotel. Well, maybe not multiple 50+" TVs but lightbulbs shouldn't be an issue.
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In most books Harry admits that he could live a much more comfortable lifestyle - but he won't use magic for little things or to get rich.
How could a wizard have amenities? A series of Thaumaturgy rituals to make life better. Of course, if you're spending your time doing that then you're not working on killer wards or potions or getting the practice in for your next "got to save the world" fight. You're just slacking off and enjoying yourself. I can't see Harry enjoying living life that way - if I had magical powers I might do that, but not Harry.
So, as tangent, what Thaumaturgy spells could do you? I'm thinking:
- illusions spells that fool you into thinking that food you're eating is much better quality. Actually, illusions are good for many things - like the one Lash did so Harry's shower felt just right.
- conjuring up some good furniture (with durations to last a week - so if I have 14 pieces of nice furniture I'm only conjuring two a day).
- do a few of those "get rich quick" things so you can buy creature comforts.
- Thaumaturgy powered water heater. Maybe an enchanted item?
- Thaumaturgy to clean house.
- conjuring something to clean your house.
- conjuring your wardrobe; while buy a $10, 000 suit when you can conjure an epic one.
If Harry didn't work for a living (i.e. put himself out there so people needing help could get it) then Harry could devote his time and powers to giving him the good life - but that wouldn't make a good story, would it?
Richard
(who's now thinking of doing up a PC like that)
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Harry is a self-flagellating martyr. He seems to think that "having hot showers" is the top of a slippery slope that terminates with "AND NOW TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!!!!"
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Harry's a magic nerd. How many of you would spend time and money on the latest fashion trends rather than the newest book/piece of tech/game? Harry takes that to an extreme.
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A few things have come to mind about Harry and his relative lack of modern amenities.
The first is that a number of the suggestions provided so far would either not work, or could potentially work but might cause other problems.
One of the suggestions was to utilized a gas-fired hot water heater. I forget which of the later books it was, but Harry quite specifically mentioned it being too risky for him to have a gas-fired hot water heater, because there was a risk of explosion. As has been observed repeatedly, Harry tends to hex things, and he's therefore rather hard on modern appliances. This includes hexing mechanical devices like automatic weapons. With the example of a gas-fired heater, there is the possibility that the pilot light could snuff out, and there would be a build of gas, or any of the other potentially very bad things which can happen with such a volatile fuel.
For the example of staying in residential hotel, the wizard is most likely still going to be in close proximity to the hot water tank, or the hotel might very well use a tankless system, with the heating elements relatively close to the individual showers and faucets which would draw hot water. This is the case (both in terms of hot water tanks and tankless systems) because there is a limit to how far hot water can be moved from the heating source to the end point of use, and have the water stay within an acceptable temperature range (~120 degrees F) Now the greater the distance, the more material the water would come into contact with to draw heat from the water. This could be gotten around but increasing the water temperature at the tank, but then those showers and faucets closer to the tank would get hot water which is too hot, potentially 160+ degrees F (the temperature of a hot cup of coffee)
Now for Harry's issue of taking cold showers, I suspect that is a bit self-inflicted. The ancient Greeks and Romans had showers, and for a long time, various types of baths were available for people to use which could be heated. Unfortunately for Harry, he lives in a basement apartment of an old Chicago rooming house, and he has neither the money nor the craftsmanship to buy, modify or build some of the systems which could allow him to regularly take hot showers.
Consider this, Harry has a fireplace which he uses to heat his apartment. If there were a series of circulation pipes running between a water tank and the back of his fireplace, Harry could both heat his apartment, and have a source of hot water. Taking things further, by having a large tank of heated water in his apartment, it would actually help regulate the temperature of his apartment, since water is slow to both heat and cool. In order for his to be able to actually use this though, there would need to be a certain amount of re-plumbing the pipes...
For those looking for other, non-magical and non-technical ideas, look at how current groups like the Amish manage to live with, or some of the ancient civilizations like the Greeks and Romans. Some of the earliest examples of indoor heating and plumbing can be from such societies.
-Cheers
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Thanks for your ideas everyone. Yeah i seemed to remember those things about Harry's philosophy on life, and he is busy saving the world and does not have a lot o of time to come up with things that might make his life easier.
I was just wondering how other magic users live when they are not saving the world all the time. Thanks again.
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Consider this, Harry has a fireplace which he uses to heat his apartment. If there were a series of circulation pipes running between a water tank and the back of his fireplace, Harry could both heat his apartment, and have a source of hot water. Taking things further, by having a large tank of heated water in his apartment, it would actually help regulate the temperature of his apartment, since water is slow to both heat and cool. In order for his to be able to actually use this though, there would need to be a certain amount of re-plumbing the pipes...
Redoing the pipes in your apartment and ripping apart the chimney at the same time is going to be really expensive. If you do it yourself, you're going to need to know what you're doing, and then it's going to take a while (especially if people keep attacking you while you're doing it). Either way, it's really resource intensive.
It's way easier to just take a bath. Fill the tub part way with cold water. Heat a pot of water over the fire and add it to the tub. Repeat until it's full.
Those times you're really gross, you can either rinse off in the cold shower, or you can wipe off the worst of the grime with a wash cloth and then dump some water over your head. Then rinse out the tub and proceed as above.
Yeah, it's a bit of a stop gap. On the other hand, you don't need to redo the plumping in your whole apartment and rip apart your chimney while you're doing it.
If you're dead set on taking a hot shower, you can always rig something up. Put a hook into the ceiling that can easily hold 50 pounds. Fill a 5 gallon bucket with a combination of tap water and hot water. Put it on the hook (which can hold it, because it's only 40 pounds). Attach a hose to it somehow (and there are lots of ways to do that). Let it rip.
I mean, a 5 gallon shower isn't going to be record-settingly long, but it's better than an ice cold one. And you can rig up this sort of system in 20 minutes. Better yet, the highest tech thing involved is a spigot, and the rest runs on gravity.
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Redoing the pipes in your apartment and ripping apart the chimney at the same time is going to be really expensive. If you do it yourself, you're going to need to know what you're doing, and then it's going to take a while (especially if people keep attacking you while you're doing it). Either way, it's really resource intensive.
It's way easier to just take a bath. Fill the tub part way with cold water. Heat a pot of water over the fire and add it to the tub. Repeat until it's full.
Those times you're really gross, you can either rinse off in the cold shower, or you can wipe off the worst of the grime with a wash cloth and then dump some water over your head. Then rinse out the tub and proceed as above.
Yeah, it's a bit of a stop gap. On the other hand, you don't need to redo the plumping in your whole apartment and rip apart your chimney while you're doing it.
If you're dead set on taking a hot shower, you can always rig something up. Put a hook into the ceiling that can easily hold 50 pounds. Fill a 5 gallon bucket with a combination of tap water and hot water. Put it on the hook (which can hold it, because it's only 40 pounds). Attach a hose to it somehow (and there are lots of ways to do that). Let it rip.
I mean, a 5 gallon shower isn't going to be record-settingly long, but it's better than an ice cold one. And you can rig up this sort of system in 20 minutes. Better yet, the highest tech thing involved is a spigot, and the rest runs on gravity.
Th chimney wouldn't need to be torn apart to get hot water piping into the back of the chimney, the pipes would just come out the front of the chimney and lead back to the water tank.
Heck, this could be done with a modified beer keg and some welded copper piping and two shutoff valves.. Makes a great portable hot water heater and can be pressurized with a pump...
For that matter, many camping stores and wilderness outfitters sell solar showers, which perform a similar function as a suspended bucket of hot water.
Incidentally, the whole issue is with a wizard being able to use modern appliances to heat/store hot water for later use. Meaning that there wouldn't normally be such water "on tap".
Now from my experience, having at least one or two characters in a group that have some decent Craftsmanship is valuable, as it can let players build things they want/need to have, even if it's mostly used 'off camera'.
-Cheers
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Okay.
As noted previously, modern wood burning (or "pellet" burning) stoves are easy to find, relatively inexpensive to purchase ($2,000 or less, typically), and can be surprisingly efficient... With the right duct work, they can keep even large houses toasty warm. Plus, conversion kits that allow you to use a wood burning to heat water for storage in an otherwise disconnected gas or electric water heater (they're just loops of stainless steel pipe that run through the heater box of the stove) are not terribly expensive (a few hundred bucks) or difficult to find, either.
Harry lives in a cold apartment with no hot water, not because there is no alternative but because he hasn't bothered to look for alternatives.
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And then there's the option of having a thaumaturgical replacement for an outside-the-copper-line water heater. As long as you're putting the spell on something outside the copper pipe, the running water inside may not affect the spell too badly. You could even do this as a scene-long evocation maneuver and have it only operate long enough for you to grab a quick shower.
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Yeah the wizard I am doing background stuff for is for a game in Hawaii. I am not really worried about him getting to cold, it would just be nice to look into ways to have some hot water. I looked into some solar powered 'passive systems', basically a holding tank that is black letting the sun heat it up - like was mentioned above. It would give him enough for a shower everyday and what not, I really just want his significant other to be somewhat comfortable when she spends the night. I was also thinking like an outdoor shower area that are at some beach houses where you can rinse off the saltwater and sand after a day on the beach, which probably would not have to heated that much.
Probably keeping things cold would be harder in a tropical environment. I like the idea of ice from winter's realm or an enchanted crystal with Thaumaturgy to stay cold.
I agree Harry just has not taken the time to research anything better than cold showers, I just shudder at that thought for the rest a wizards life.
It is for a NPC character more or less soa as long as it is half way believable it should fly with the GM.
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Probably keeping things cold would be harder in a tropical environment. I like the idea of ice from winter's realm or an enchanted crystal with Thaumaturgy to stay cold.
Why not strike two vampires with one satellite? Create a link between the icebox and the water tank, and you could simply move heat away from the icebox and use that heat in the water heater. Like when Harry froze the lake, only you don't do it quite that sudden and you don't just throw all that energy away. They don't even have to be physically linked, just a pair of crystals, one placed in each should do.
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A few things have come to mind about Harry and his relative lack of modern amenities.
The first is that a number of the suggestions provided so far would either not work, or could potentially work but might cause other problems.
One of the suggestions was to utilized a gas-fired hot water heater. I forget which of the later books it was, but Harry quite specifically mentioned it being too risky for him to have a gas-fired hot water heater, because there was a risk of explosion.
All depends on where you live and whether you own the building.
Oil and coal are both urban fuel sources that could also be used to heat water. The real problem with a modern hot water heater is not as much the gas as the pressure value failing and the unit turning into a bomb (think Mythbusters, then a wizard accidentally hexing the pressure valve). If you have the room a larged raised open vat can be heated via coal or wood then mixed with cold water. What's the problem?
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Haru,
I like the idea of the linked crystals.
Everyone/Anyone,
I am not familiar enough with the crafting rules. If I wanted to stat it up how would you do it? Would it be a thaumaturgic ritual placing 2 aspects of the crystals and a duration? It seems to simple, but when I tend to over-think things too much and complicate it.
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I've written up a wizard who likes the good life - it's at http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29167.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29167.0.html). Feel free to comment.
Richard
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Haru,
I like the idea of the linked crystals.
Everyone/Anyone,
I am not familiar enough with the crafting rules. If I wanted to stat it up how would you do it? Would it be a thaumaturgic ritual placing 2 aspects of the crystals and a duration? It seems to simple, but when I tend to over-think things too much and complicate it.
It's not crafting, it's just a long running spell. I tend to go with Harry's explanation on spells placed on objects. It's easy to make them work at home, being able to take them on the road takes more effort. So, if it's something for just around the house, I don't charge EI slots for it.
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That's what I was kind of thinking after reading the thread about Jake that Richard started.
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I pose a question similar to amenites, but not quite.
Can a wizard keep tattoos or peircings long term. I know Molly has plenty of both, but will Wizards Constitution slowly heal all of it?
(both are technically wounds and scars/permanent wounds [that aren't permanent on a wizard])
By extension can someone with recovery powers have those above body alterations?
Would that depend on the flavor of the recovery power?
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Define long term.
Most tattoos need to be retouched and older ones fade. I might be wrong but I don't think that a 50 year old tattoo would be anything but a blue of ink. As for piercings, as long as the ring (or whatever) is in they should be okay, but I've known people whose piercings have healed over because they left the ring/stud/whatever out for too long.
Richard
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On piercings, what Richard said. Even a non-wizard human body will heal up piercings eventually. It depends on how long it was used regularly for the most part.
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I agree with TMB and Richard on piercings. I'm less sure about tattoos...they do tend to a) fade with time and b) become distorted by changes in body composition, but I don't think they ever fade completely away. (IRL, there are preserved tattoos allegedly centuries old which still look reasonably good.) As for tattoos interacting with recovery powers - the tattooing process inserts a foreign substance (ink). So it would require rejection and not simply healing for the recovery power to erode the tattoo.
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@ umbralux: So recovery powers do not reject bullets or poisons?
In regards to wizard Con: So wizard constitution + tattoos etc. = fine?
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Haru,
I like the idea of the linked crystals.
Thanks
Everyone/Anyone,
I am not familiar enough with the crafting rules. If I wanted to stat it up how would you do it? Would it be a thaumaturgic ritual placing 2 aspects of the crystals and a duration? It seems to simple, but when I tend to over-think things too much and complicate it.
I wouldn't stat it up at all. Let me ask you this: are any of the stats EVER going to come up during play? Most likely not. So it is a mundane effect, and it should be treated as such. A simple "magical heat conductor" aspect on the wizards place should be enough, no numbers or roll needed.
@silverblaze
No, they do not. you still get them, but they heal pretty quick. In fact, it might even be reasonable for a character with a recovery power to say, the wound closes before the bullet is completely gone through him.
As for tattoos and piercings: Piercings should not be a problem, they stay open as long as the piercing is in place. A character with a very high recovery power will probably have problems getting through airport security without the holes closing up. You could however also say, that a recovery power lets the flesh grow over the piercing and "spit" it out. The way it works should be on the players discretion, you should not punish him if he thinks a character with recovery and piercings is cool. little things (the airport security for example) might be fun, and the character might simply not care and push them back in, making new holes that close in a matter of seconds.
Come to think it, it should be the players choice with tattoos as well. Maybe he thinks it would be fun to have new tattoos every 2 weeks, do the power removes them, or he wants them to last, so it doesn't. He would still be able to cut of his skin and have it heal in a matter of moments, if he wanted to remove them.
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@ umbralux: So recovery powers do not reject bullets or poisons?
That's open to interpretation isn't it? :) (Specifically, do recovery powers eject foreign objects / material or simply heal wounds?)
I'd probably use the recovery power as a block against creating the tattoo but have the tattoo permanent once created. That's just one possible answer though...
In regards to wizard Con: So wizard constitution + tattoos etc. = fine?
Wizard constitution is essentially a recovery power...just a very slow one. So I'd use the answer given above.
Edited for clarity.
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Fair enough. Was just trying to gather a general consensus. Thanks.
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@Silverblaze: A very, very slow one, yup.
Rough guestimate? You'd have to have them touched up twice as often as a plain mortal. So every five or so years if you want to keep them looking good. Depends on how much detail there is, what kind of needle was used, which inks were used, your personal metabolism, and several other factors.
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Hmm, This brings to mind a thought: The idea of Tatoos as either Focus or Enchanted Items. How would you consider the process of making these, narratively? Would the wizard in question focus their will on the tattoo (repeatedly, for weeks) once it's done, or on the ink beforehand? And then there's Tattoo potions. Faster to make, but does the tattoo disappear when used? And what does a Tattoo EI look like when used? The ideas just flow....
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Harry notes a few times that it's very easy to make money as a wizard, and that he chose exactly how he lives. That has to mean that there's a way for wizards to live in modern luxury. As someone pointed out, at the very least it's easy to heat water without technology or even magic.
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Hmm, This brings to mind a thought: The idea of Tatoos as either Focus or Enchanted Items. How would you consider the process of making these, narratively? Would the wizard in question focus their will on the tattoo (repeatedly, for weeks) once it's done, or on the ink beforehand? And then there's Tattoo potions. Faster to make, but does the tattoo disappear when used? And what does a Tattoo EI look like when used? The ideas just flow....
See: Susan's tattoos. It also stands to reason that since you can inscribe quick wards with something like ink or paint, that you could scribble one on your arm and get such an effect. As far as I can remember, the physical inscription doesn't disappear when the energy is used (thinking of the "random scrawlings" in GS that lit up but I don't remember a mention of them vanishing).
When I play other games and make magic users, they usually invoke magical tattoos, which is a relatively common idea. I would venture that if I ever made a magic-oriented DFRPG char, he would be a magic tattoo scribe and would be able to whip out an enchanted pen and throw down forumlae/symbols instead of casting direct spells.
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Hmm, This brings to mind a thought: The idea of Tatoos as either Focus or Enchanted Items. How would you consider the process of making these, narratively? Would the wizard in question focus their will on the tattoo (repeatedly, for weeks) once it's done, or on the ink beforehand? And then there's Tattoo potions. Faster to make, but does the tattoo disappear when used? And what does a Tattoo EI look like when used? The ideas just flow....
I think I'd pass on making tattoo focus items. Remember what happened to Harry's shield bracelet when he overtaxed it and consider that happening to something under your skin.
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I think I'd pass on making tattoo focus items. Remember what happened to Harry's shield bracelet when he overtaxed it and consider that happening to something under your skin.
There's a great "tattoo man vs wizard" battle in A Madness of Angels. Without giving spoilers, it's a way that a wizard using a freestyle magic system (DFRPG, Mage, etc) can neutralise tattoo based magic.
Richard
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I think I'd pass on making tattoo focus items. Remember what happened to Harry's shield bracelet when he overtaxed it and consider that happening to something under your skin.
In one of the other games I play, with a tatto'd magic user, that actually happens. He has protective tattos and if he gets hit hard enough, they overload and burn him and burn their outline in his clothes. In a giant battle he actually had his shirt reduced to ashes because he was hit so often. I think it's both a great side-effect of such a powerful always-on ward and a really cool image.
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In one of the other games I play, with a tatto'd magic user, that actually happens. He has protective tattos and if he gets hit hard enough, they overload and burn him and burn their outline in his clothes. In a giant battle he actually had his shirt reduced to ashes because he was hit so often. I think it's both a great side-effect of such a powerful always-on ward and a really cool image.
Yep, that happens in Larry Correia's Hard Magic too; overloading a regen or durability brand causes it to heat up and burn the bearer. I imagine that's why most wizards stick with foci.