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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Salacia on September 13, 2011, 07:22:23 PM
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So. Your name is Lasciel. You’re a fallen angel imprisoned in a blackened denarius. You’ve just learned that the Harry Dresden has outsmarted your mental construct. You’ve lost face with your fellow evil cohorts, and Hell hath no fury like a Fallen scorned. What do you do next? Why, you make the wizard as miserable as possible, and then you kill him. How does one accomplish that? Here’s my theory.
I’d like to make the case that Lasciel has been whispering thoughts into Harry’s head since Turn Coat. Harry’s reliability as a narrator sometimes comes into question, but his narration style doesn’t change. Up until Turn Coat, I can find no instances where his inner monologue includes an unnamed voice whispering in his head. Yes, Lasciel’s coin whispered to Harry at the end of Death Masks, Lash had mental conversations with Harry, and the Merlin gave psychic instructions to everyone at the end of TC, but in each of those instances, Harry is consciously aware that his thoughts aren’t his own.
I believe it’s possible for something to be inside Harry’s head undetected. Molly got a good look around in there in SmF, but since then, her experience has been limited to penetrating Harry’s defenses and doing a Darth Vader impression. And at the end of TC, Harry mentions all of the younger wardens getting brain checks, but never mentions that he himself is examined.
I don’t know how Lasciel got into Harry’s head, but I’m guessing that the process was painful for Harry and gave him migraines. The migraines have disappeared by the end of TC, which is after Harry has heard the voice for the first time. Harry and Bob are discussing what shagnasty did with Thomas during TC.
“He’s alive,” I said quietly. “Or at least I’m going to proceed on that assumption.
Bob somehow managed to look baffled. “Why?”
Because you need your brother to be all right, whispered a quiet voice in my head. “Because anything else isn’t particularly useful in resolving this situation,” I said aloud.
And the voice causes Harry momentary despair.
Then there are four separate instances of a voice whispering in Harry’s head during Changes, not including the one that Molly erased. The first time happens when Harry is going after the RC vamps in his office, right before he decided to forgo steath mode and attack the vamps.
And why, exactly, a voice somewhere within the storm in my chest whispered, should I be hiding from these murdering scum in the first place?
This could be amusing for Lasciel. Will this idiot act on what I say? Why yes, he will. Muahahahahaha.
In the second instance, Harry is running out of options and contemplating possibilities. Option one, get friends killed trying to save Maggie. Option two, do a smash and grab against the whole RC. Option three, become a tardbeast.
But Maggie might survive it. If I did it right—only to be orphaned again, in one way or another.
I felt so tired.
Maybe there isn’t a way, whispered a voice in the back of my head.
I snapped the water off and reached for a towel. “Screw that kind of thinking, Dresden,” I ordered myself. “There’s a way. You’ve just got to find it.”
And the voice causes Harry momentary despair.
The next instance isn’t mentioned in Changes, but results in Harry putting a hit on himself. Solid proof that one of the fallen is whispering in Harry’s thoughts. But even if he is going to die, there’s still more misery to be had. When Harry is contemplating becoming the Winter Knight, this happens.
It was the least evil path, I told myself. Whatever else I might have done would have turned me into a monster in truth. Because of Lloyd Slate, I knew that whatever Mab might say, she did not control her knight completely. Slate had defied her power and influence.
And look where it got him, a little voice whispered in my head.
And Harry feels despair.
The last instance of voices in his head mentioned in Changes is when Harry is in the Erlking’s domain fighting the Ick and it doesn’t look like the Ick can be defeated.
It howled and lifted both arms above its head, ready to smash them down on my skull. I didn’t have much time to use my death curse, said the little sane voice in my head.
And then another voice in my head, one far louder and more furious, screamed denial. My few glimpses of Maggie whirled through my mind, along with images of her death—or worse—at Arianna’s hands. If I died here, there would be no one to take her out of darkness.
I had to try.
My interpretation of this is that Lasciel sees another opportunity to kill Dresden and takes it. And then Uriel intervenes because Mab wouldn’t be able to get to him if he died in the Erlking’s domain.
So there you have it. Getting into Harry’s head caused the headaches in TC, and Lasciel’s been getting her revenge by steering him towards suicide.
Significant Replies
Vairelome's support summary (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28970.msg1289738.html#msg1289738) (Reply #63)
Vairelelome's analysis of Lasciel's (possible) "tags" (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28970.msg1290447.html#msg1290447) (Reply #80) Jim's explenation of "tags" (http://jimbutcher.livejournal.com/1698.html)
Tie-in Thread "The Voices in my head" (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27028.0.html) (Reference of all the times a disembodied voice spoke to Harry)
Here is another thread with many parallels (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28050.0.html)
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I don't know if I'd say she's in his head, but the picture you paint is fairly compelling. A quick run through the rest of the series (my check was by no means comprehensive, and I'll bow to anyone who can offer contradictory evidence) reveals no conspicuous mentions of that sort of voice in the books after Lasciel/Lash took up residence in Harry's head. Given that Jim never does anything accidentally (at least, never admits to doing anything accidentally), I'd say this is worth remembering and keeping an eye out for.
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Well the main problem I see with this theorie is that those actions were all Lasciel plan to prepare Harry for the suicide would allow Uriel more counter-balance than only the seven words.. And he speaks nothing of it...
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Well the main problem I see with this theorie is that those actions were all Lasciel plan to prepare Harry for the suicide would allow Uriel more counter-balance than only the seven words.. And he speaks nothing of it...
I see no reason to suspect Uriel would tell Harry if he had more intervention planned.
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Neurovore is right there. Uriel and Harry are operating on different planes of existence. It's like that conversation in Flatland when a two dimensional shape is speaking to a three dimensional solid. Harry can't comprehend what's going on with Uriel, because his brain isn't set up to do so. Plus, Uriel is as close as Jim can get to actually being in the books himself, and we all know how Jim delights in not telling us things.
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I see no reason to suspect Uriel would tell Harry if he had more intervention planned.
Sorry neuro, but in your view of Uriel you see no reason for him to do anything and everything according to some master plan he hides from everyone because in true hes not such a nice guy...
I personally belive that since these Lasciel actions, would be all part of the final whispering with the objective of getting Harry suicide, and that Harry was the object of the cheating and such information would be important to Harry making a fully informed and free decision in the end of GS I feel Uriel as guardian of the mortals free will would feel comppelled to share it.
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Not necessarily. The only reason Harry got a tour of his loved ones is because he backed Uriel into a corner (as much as he could) and demanded it. Before that, Uriel was already pushing him to go ahead and make a decision. There's nothing in the text or in a WOJ that I can personally bring to mind that tells us Uriel has, is, or ever will act with Harry's best interests at heart. Harry is one human being; a rather important one, true, but still only one guy. Uriel's tasks and responsibilities extend to....Well, basically everywhere, as an archangel. So Heaven's Spook wouldn't have any particular reason to feel compelled to tell Harry anything just because.
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Not necessarily. The only reason Harry got a tour of his loved ones is because he backed Uriel into a corner (as much as he could) and demanded it. Before that, Uriel was already pushing him to go ahead and make a decision.
Uriel could still have said no, to this, but being a 'good guy' decided that it didn't hurt anything. But, if Lash/Lasciel, did need more balancing, this could have been part of that as well.
There's nothing in the text or in a WOJ that I can personally bring to mind that tells us Uriel has, is, or ever will act with Harry's best interests at heart. Harry is one human being; a rather important one, true, but still only one guy.
I expect that Uriel will act with Harry's best interest at heart, when it serves his plan(s). Soulfire for instance, yes that helps Harry, but when the long game plays out, I bet it helps Uriel more.
Uriel's tasks and responsibilities extend to....Well, basically everywhere, as an archangel. So Heaven's Spook wouldn't have any particular reason to feel compelled to tell Harry anything just because.
None of the 'major players', read that as Sidhe Queens, Jim, Angels, Fallen, Jim, Odin, Senior Council, did I mention Jim?, give any knowledge away for free. Knowledge is power, the more Harry has, the more powerful he becomes.
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The only Fallen that we know to operate as a shadow is Anduriel, and I could see him and Nicodemus wanting to get Harry out of the picture.
Yes Lasciel's story isn't done per WoJ. My bet is that Lash was the 'Inez construct' that was seen in Graceland, and that we haven't seen Lasciels nicklehead yet.
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Well the main problem I see with this theorie is that those actions were all Lasciel plan to prepare Harry for the suicide would allow Uriel more counter-balance than only the seven words.. And he speaks nothing of it...
Well, in only one of those cases does Harry listen to the voice and act differently because of it. He ignores the voice about Thomas, even if it saddens him, and going in to slaughter rampires is hardly against his style (and he still veiled himself in silence on the stairs). He basically tells the voice to shut up in the shower, and then doesn't throw his death curse at the Ick (I see the other voice there as Id Harry more than Uriel, but ymmv).
I like this idea - those little voice mentions had been bothering me, but I hadn't come up with a good explanation. Thank you, Salacia!
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I think only the times that resulted in a loss of Harry's free will actually matter as far as retaliation goes for Uriel.
On another note, I'm pretty sure that Uriel wanted Harry to die, considering that Uriel has intellectus and he spoke to Harry after the incident in the church occurred. If he could look at Harry and know about his daughter, he would have known that Harry was going to commit suicide too. He just decided to save his seven words for later. Uriel is like Jim, he gets to torture Harry for the supposed benefit of others.
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I got the impression that the only voice speaking to Harry's head from the coin is the Lash imprint. Lash's imprint couldn't directly talk to Harry until he first started wielding hellfire consciously. Prior to that, there wasn't any direct contact. Lasciel never communicated directly with Harry.
I agree the headaches are suspicious, as are the memory lapses, but the headaches can be explained as his brain healing in the section that got burned out by Lash's sacrifice in WN.
I think that the shadow whispering to Harry in the church in GS is from Nick's coin, which we know A) appears in the form of a shadow, B) has motivation for revenge due to Harry's attack on Nick in TC, and C) his contact with Harry would be against the rules, since he hasn't taken up that coin, and therefore has no right to communicate or influence him, therefore allowing Uriel to act as well.
As for multiple, ongoing illegal influences allowing Uriel free reign to act beyond what he did in Changes, I doubt that the Fallen are unaware of his restrictions. They probably play by the rules more to keep the good guys from wielding more power rather than any limitation they put on themselves.
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I think only the times that resulted in a loss of Harry's free will actually matter as far as retaliation goes for Uriel.
I'd actually go a bit farther than that. I think Uriel will only do the intervention/retaliation/balance thing when the free-will-compromising action on the part of the Fallen results in a "forced choice" that directly causes the death of the person compromised.
I don't have the precise text in front of me, but Harry questions Uriel directly on this point, with regard to the truly horrific things the naagloshi did to Thomas. Harry thinks this is a pretty damn direct analogy, since a powerful supernatural force brutalized Thomas into despair and embracing the monster. Uriel's response is that Harry's mostly right, but the naagloshi's actions that compromised Thomas' free will did not result in Thomas' death, so he was not permitted to balance the act.
Also, I think you did a really solid job at laying out this theory. I think the second voice in the Ick incident might not be Uriel, but other than that, I find it very persuasive. :)
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A very well thought out theory. I'm impressed. Kudos! As I re-read the series, I'll look out for other "whispers".
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This is a well-thought out theory. I've never considered the headaches other than fallout from Lash taking the psychic bullet, but maybe I should reconsider... Things to think about then re-reading the series.
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I'm almost positive i've read theories on this board before about the headaches being harry's mind healing itself over time (in similar fashion to how his hand is slowly healing itself beyond normal human limits)
and that, as his mind heals itself, so to might lash be able to be returned (reborn?) in his mind.
iirc, at the end of death masks before harry buried the coin he was hearing whispering and a voice.. i don't think that was lash, i think that was the full fallen angel lasciel... only now, harry no longer has the coin sealed away in his basement.
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Sorry neuro, but in your view of Uriel you see no reason for him to do anything and everything according to some master plan he hides from everyone because in true hes not such a nice guy...
You don't treat Bob's reaction at the end of SmF - directly warning Harry that Uriel is not a nice guy - as relevant information, then ?
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I see Bob's warning as that Uriel can be a very dangerous entity, and as a way to warn Harry that only because he's an archangel dosent mean he is all nice and sweet, that he can be harsh when he must/want to.
I take all we have seen from Uriel, is that as long as is inside his limitations, and it does not go against his/the WG plans and rules if he can help people he does.
The fun part of it, is that does not how much we try we could not understand him. I mean we could have a lot of information that points towards that he could be manipulating everyone in the series, but in his POV he's not, thats just the way he is.
You can take the GS passage when Harry demands from him to know how he friends were. And he says something like that
- Well, I belive that if we see from your perspective your right.
Not that he desagree from Harry, just that for who/what he is he never thougth on that possibility before. And the fact the he is willing to admit and act upon it, I belive shows part of his character.
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Neuro and I aren't trying to imply Uriel is evil, but think of him as a far more powerful and slightly more benign version of John Travolta's character in Swordfish, especially as far as the "You could cure all the world's diseases, but the cost is killing an innocent child. Could you kill that child?" question Travolta poses goes. Uriel is concerned with the GREATEST good, not just the greater good. Given that he exists on multiple levels of reality simultaneously, has intellectus, and has watched the rise and fall of literally all of humanity, there's absolutely no way we can truly understand his motives. Think about what Uriel said about the Fallen that whispered in Harry's ear. Something that Harry (and most of us, myself included) missed there: Uriel has that same advantage, as far as understanding humanity goes.
As I said before, Uriel is as close as Jim can come to acting personally within the series, which is the same thing as saying Uriel kind of is Jim. Assuming that Uriel has entirely benign motives, or that he's acting with only Harry's best interests at heart is worst than silly, it's verging on willful foolishness. While Mab would throw Harry away in a heartbeat if it was necessary to fulfilling her purposes as the Winter Queen, Uriel is far more dangerous. He'd likely allow Harry to become the scary evil tardbeast Harry is so afraid of becoming, IF it served the greatest possible good to allow that to happen. Simply put: Uriel has supported Harry in the past, and has helped him, yes. BUT (in huge flashing neon letters, that does not by any stretch of the imagination make Uriel Harry's friend or ally.
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Neuro and I aren't trying to imply Uriel is evil
I think that does depend rather a lot on how you define evil. I see it as entirely possible that Uriel's ultimate motives might not map well onto anything that could be described as good on the human scale.
As I said before, Uriel is as close as Jim can come to acting personally within the series, which is the same thing as saying Uriel kind of is Jim.
I'm disinclined to see this, fwiw, because i am a long way from believing Uriel is categorically more informed and capable than Odin or the Mothers.
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Rogue, the nature of Uriel is a discussion I'm having for the third time with neuro I think.
So I can say I know how he neuro (sorry again) sees Uriel (and I'll boldly try to explain it):
We dont have enough information to know if Uriel is a good guy, and characters that we can "trust" like Bob (rarely wrong) and Mab (cant lie) have said he is dangerous. He has a goal that we have no idea at all and it's probally does not concede with Harry best interests. For all evidence we have he's not helping Harry, but manipulating him to achive his own goals.
Or something close to that, correct me if I'm wrong Neuro.
While, I belive that even if we dont have enough information, or ever will, to understand uriel motives, all the evidences we got of him so far shows a good character that will try to do the less damage possible to people in order to achive his goals/orders/master plan. And if it is inside his limitations there is a chance of helping the "good" guys he will. And I addmit he is "cold" enough to take some high risk tattics to achive his goals ( like sending harry out as a soul) thats why he is represented in the series as Heavens Spooky or Heavens Special Operation.
Ok, there are two really resumed descriptions...
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That's exactly what I was getting at. Lash herself brought up in White Night that Harry couldn't possibly understand what she was created for:
"I was brought to life by the Word of the Almighty himself, for a purpose so complex and fundamental that you could not begin to comprehend it."
Given that Lasciel was a lower order of angel, I'd imagine that Uriel's purpose is like that, only squared to the fifth dimension when it comes to Harry (or us) understanding it.
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This is an interesting idea. Of course, I subscribe to the opposite idea - that Lash isn't 100% gone, and has in fact been recovering slowly (and with Knighthood, completely).
Here's my thought process:
-Harry had access to Hellfire. This is an incredibly rare resource; effectively only available to evil angels and those that access their powers.
-Harry has access to Soulfire. This is an incredibly rare resource, from what we've heard. Angels are confirmed to use it, and I don't recall anyone else short of god-like beings having had it.
I don't have the books handy, but Harry was told he was given Soulfire access because he resisted the shadow. What if it's more than that? What if, by resisting the shadow, he turned the shadow to the Light again, enough that the entity tried to sacrifice herself to save Harry? The entity of Lash could have survived in the damaged brain - and has been trying to return.
Fastforward to Ghost Story, at the end. Harry was kept alive by a group of 4 entities: Demonreach kept him fed/watered, Mab gave him breath, Uriel protected his soul, and "the parasite" kept his heart beating. Why would the Fallen that convinced him to kill himself do that? It makes little to no sense - but if he had two fallen shadows? One light (Lash), one dark (Lasciel)? That would make some sense.
(Please, tear this theory apart)
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We have confirmation that Uriel was the one who granted Harry Soulfire for one.
We also have him possibly channeling Hellfire on the way to the White Council chambers in Changes.
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Sorry to derail this but......
So. Your name is Lasciel. You’re a fallen angel imprisoned in a blackened denarius. You’ve just learned that the Harry Dresden has outsmarted your mental construct. You’ve lost face with your fellow evil cohorts, and Hell hath no fury like a Fallen scorned. What do you do next? Why, you make the wizard as miserable as possible, and then you kill him. How does one accomplish that?
Did anyone one else read this and think "whisper words into an author's ear"?
Otherwise... it is a great idea
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Did anyone one else read this and think "whisper words into an author's ear"?
So that's why Harry's life sucks so much.
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It's a good theory, and fits well with canon. Uriel only had the power to act because the Shadow lied, which it didn't do in those three examples.
Also, it helps to know that Lasciel turned up in the last book, presumably as the Shadow. Lash also turned up and was likely the Parasite that kept Harry's heart going during his out of mortality experience. So we can assume that whispering into Harry's head may not have taken a mental link in order to occur.
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Just to mention, after scorching Tessa in SF, Harry heard a whisper, like that of a calm old man, essentially laying out his current situation and telling him to run. This occurred while holding onto the handle of Fiddelichius.
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You don't treat Bob's reaction at the end of SmF - directly warning Harry that Uriel is not a nice guy - as relevant information, then ?
Uriel isn't evil, but he is an archangel, powerful beyond comprehension if he chose to use it. Bob was merely warning Harry of that fact, you might say like Michael warning him about Mr Ferro..
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Uriel isn't evil, but he is an archangel, powerful beyond comprehension if he chose to use it. Bob was merely warning Harry of that fact, you might say like Michael warning him about Mr Ferro..
I agree. As an example, was Gandolf in TLotR evil for getting Bilbo on the path to help the dwarves take out the Dragon and unite the Elves, Dwarves, Men vs the big Goblin army? Or Frodo going into Mordor to save the world? Would it have been better for Gandalf to leave them safe (for now) in the Shire then watch them die in the end when the world burns? Sure, Bilbo and Frodo were put at risk and danger but they were not forced to go and it helped countless lives and helped save the world. I view Uriel sort of doing the same thing with Harry. It has been mentioned in Ghost Story without Harry everyone on the planet is at risk, so Harry has to travel the path of danger to save the world and himself.
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A well researched and thought out theory. Nicely done. There are, however, two holes I can put in it and both are somewhat subjective.
Hole One: Lasciel is a very ancient and very powerful entity. We have word from Lash that patience among the Fallen is something of an art form. If Lasciel is really miffed at this upstart mortal who thinks he can not only defy her, but can actually turn her shadow away from her, then she is going to want to make him suffer for a good long time. Lasicel is described as the Deceiver - a style that by nature involves stealth, planning, and time. She is not a thug or a brute like Magog who would be more inclined to smash an upstart mortal into dust as soon as possible. The couple years in the timeline you lay out with the whisperings seems far too short from plan inception to Harry's death to be believable as the ultimate vengeance dreamed up by a Fallen Angel.
Hole Two: In the instances you cited, other than some mild discomfort to Harry or brief despair, there was very little pain inflicted on Harry. The voices and the words spoken in your citations were not the most uplifting or positive things in the world, but they do not seem like the best suffering and personalized pain Lasciel was able to inflict on an unwitting mortal. Plus, Harry was able to overcome the words and use them for strength in the moments without too much effort.
To me, if Lasciel were really behind those voices, she would want to turn the knife in his belly for decades at least and really make those decades absolute torture for him for having the gall to think he could not only defy, but in a way defeat, one of the witnesses to Creation itself. Dresden is a wizard, and with their enhanced lifespans, she could stretch that torture out for centuries if she did it right. Nicodemus was hesitant to give Lasciel to Dresden, not only because she didn't always follow his lead, but because she was at least powerful enough to oppose him if she so chose. That would put her probably in the top 5 of the most powerful Fallen. With great power usually comes great ego, and for an affront to her like what Dresden did, the only viable solution for her would be a very long period of very awful torture. Not a few whispers of despair to convince him to kill himself a few short years of relative peace afterward. Actually, given that the words usually galvanized Harry into taking necessary actions, it almost seems like the work of Lash, taking on the role of that drill sergeant/high school football coach who likes to call people maggots and worthless and weak as motivation to prove him wrong.
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To me, if Lasciel were really behind those voices, she would want to turn the knife in his belly for decades at least and really make those decades absolute torture for him for having the gall to think he could not only defy, but in a way defeat, one of the witnesses to Creation itself. Dresden is a wizard, and with their enhanced lifespans, she could stretch that torture out for centuries if she did it right. Nicodemus was hesitant to give Lasciel to Dresden, not only because she didn't always follow his lead, but because she was at least powerful enough to oppose him if she so chose. That would put her probably in the top 5 of the most powerful Fallen. With great power usually comes great ego, and for an affront to her like what Dresden did, the only viable solution for her would be a very long period of very awful torture. Not a few whispers of despair to convince him to kill himself a few short years of relative peace afterward. Actually, given that the words usually galvanized Harry into taking necessary actions, it almost seems like the work of Lash, taking on the role of that drill sergeant/high school football coach who likes to call people maggots and worthless and weak as motivation to prove him wrong.
I have to disagree, if that shadow was Lasciel goading Harry to suicide, while she didn't prolong his torture, she did twist the knife in the most painful way. Knowing Harry as she does, through Lash, and just knowing her subjects, she understands Harry's over active sense of thinking he is responsible for everything, his quickness to assume guilt where none exists, though he dances with the darkside his desire to avoid it.. There is nothing she could do to him that would cause greater pain than to say, "and it is all your fault.." Accomplish two things or maybe three depending on how you look at it. 1] Cause great pain and suffering for Harry, to the point where he wishes to end his life. I do not buy it was just to avoid becoming Mab's monster, but to punish himself for what went down. We have evidence of that in GS. 2] To rid the Denarians of a very powerful foe, revenge also may be a factor. 3] To deprive Heaven of a soldier in the up and coming battle.
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Depriving Heaven is a great motivation, but wouldn't it be better in the long run for her side to turn Dresden? The delicious pain from having him lose everything he holds dear, from constantly forcing him into having to choose between bad and worse, and of him having to watch helplessly as he slides further and further away from what make him Harry is a far better punishment. It'd be like Vader Syndrome, in reverse.
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No books in front of me to confirm this, but wasn't there a distinctly female guiding voice in Storm Front? Right outside the Lake House? I'm fairly certain. If so, this means there's been a voice hanging around since the very beginning, and there need be no connection to Lasciel at all.
--- Magis
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Depriving Heaven is a great motivation, but wouldn't it be better in the long run for her side to turn Dresden? The delicious pain from having him lose everything he holds dear, from constantly forcing him into having to choose between bad and worse, and of him having to watch helplessly as he slides further and further away from what make him Harry is a far better punishment. It'd be like Vader Syndrome, in reverse.
Except she didn't succeed, Harry dug up the coin and had Father Forthill take it away. Harry resisted the shadow and rejected the coin successfully, we have the word of Uriel on that. That is why he was gifted with Soul Fire. There was a female voice sometimes in
Storm Front, Harry thought it was his mother.
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First off, let me give you my own opinion on who the shadow was. Lucifer, (or Lucy, if that's your preference).
Why? In Ghost Story, we learn that it wasn't a Fallen Angel exactly (per Jack). Lucy, in my mind fits this. In the same way that Alvin isn't exactly one of the Chipmunks. And yet, at the end of the book, Uriel states that what got Harry was once an angel.
I believe we have WOJ that Uriel has intellectus (trying to find the quote). So I'm willing to attribute it to Lucy as well. Which, in my thinking would go a long way to explaining how the entity, knew exactly what to say & when to say it, to Harry.
Harry would have thwarted Lucy, himself in Small Favor, so this would have certainly been a result of him thinking of the best time to strike at Harry.
Also, I'm willing to bet that it would take a major hellion, to lie to Harry within the confines of the church.
I acknowledge that there is a WOJ, that the Fallen can extend their influence beyond the coins, but it still doesn't feel right:
What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet. :)
Not to say that I couldn't be wrong, but I don't like the idea of Lashiel, being able to get into Harry's head, with both a church & distance standing in her way. Plus, last we knew she was still in church hands & I also dislike the idea that both Lea & Lashiel were put in action at the same time.
So, I fall back on my own interpretation, that it was Lucy. I've seen nothing that makes it clear either way. And since I've seen some WOJs that confuse Lash & Lashiel, I'm not prepared to say that its impossible that Jim messed up in saying that Lash & Lashiel were both in Ghost Story, since the only time I've seen a quote on the matter, it wasn't entirely clear (to me) that he intended to mean both.
Kevin
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No offence, but not accepting canon because you don't like it doesn't make it any less a part of canon. Jim has stated that both Lasciel and Lash showed up in Ghost Story, which if we use deductive reasoning leaves only the Shadow and the Parasite as possible candidates for their appearance. Lash is obviously the parasite because she's stated as using Harry's soul as a battery during White Night (plus, Lasciel is an independent entity, no parasitism there). Lasciel therefore must have been the Shadow who whispered into Harry's ear.
That's about as much confirmation as you can get without it being directly stated that Lasciel was the Shadow.
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No offence, but not accepting canon because you don't like it doesn't make it any less a part of canon.
I've read at least one or two direct quotes from Jim that makes it seem, like he has some issues keeping the two straight. (Understandable, since the name Lash was used for less than a half of a book.) Other than that, all I've heard is second hand stuff that attributes things to Jim, but aren't anything like a direct quote.
In the WOJ compilation it only states that Lash was in Ghost Story, not Lashiel.
Is Lash coming back?
Lash actually appeared in Ghost Story, although not under that name.
So, from what I've seen, what you accept as cannon is at best a fishy sounding rumor to me. And does not absolutely state that that the entity is Lashiel in any case.
People have only told me that Jim supposedly said that he stated both Lash & Lashiel are in GS, but the only thing I've seen is the Lash comment. Until, I see something concrete, I stick to my own read of the scene. Placing Lashiel there seems forced.
I grant I might be wrong, but I also know that people jump to conclusions. That might be the case here.
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So, from what I've seen, what you accept as cannon is at best a fishy sounding rumor to me. And does not absolutely state that that the entity is Lashiel in any case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlMVQrrmgnw&feature=autoplay&list=PL29F6E08FB4FB0E75&playnext=1
Its about a minute in, both Lash and Lasciel were in Ghost Story but not under those names.
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Beside, while Jack say it was kind of a fallen angel, Uriel confirms it was a fallen angel. One could say that Lucifer is a fallen angel, but one also could say that is actually a fallen Archangel, what would remove him of the pool of candidates for the whispering shadow...
After a lot of discussing, re-reading, interpreting woj, I'll keep with the theorie of Lasciel = Whispering shadow and Lash the parasite. And that the headaches he had in TC was the damaged part of his brain healing up. And that it has finished healing by the end of GS, but not by Mab in changes, since he asked to restore his body to health, and that can be interpreted in a thousand ways..
Edit: Also aganst Lash being the shadow there is Uriel word that the shadow was an angel a long time ago, While lash has never been an angel, but a construc made by Lasciel..
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlMVQrrmgnw&feature=autoplay&list=PL29F6E08FB4FB0E75&playnext=1
Its about a minute in, both Lash and Lasciel were in Ghost Story but not under those names.
That is more definitive. Prior to now, the occasion was described to me in terms that were less concrete. As such, Lashiel being the whisperer makes more sense.
I concede the point, but hope the reason why Lashiel was there at that exact moment, could be fleshed out.
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Not to say that I couldn't be wrong, but I don't like the idea of Lashiel, being able to get into Harry's head, with both a church & distance standing in her way. Plus, last we knew she was still in church hands & I also dislike the idea that both Lea & Lashiel were put in action at the same time.
For all we know Lasciel's coin may still be in St. Mary's. It may not have been that much of a distance for Lasciel to send out her shadow to Harry. We really don't know. Besides that, we know the denarians can have influence here on earth beyond their coin via WoJ.
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I (as usual ;D) see things slightly differently.
Inez is where I see two branching possiblities... one is that she is Mab in disguise, the other is that she is Lashiel in disguise. Inez tries to make Harry believe he will be a Monster, and that being a Monster is a good thing. They would say the same things because it is in their best interest to push Harry into darker states of mind. Mab wants to make Harry easier to manipulate, Lashiel wants him to be easier to corrupt.
Since GS is all about proxies(SP) that mean that one of them is represented by Inez. Mab can just as be represented by Lea, Lashiel could be the shadow that tricks Harry, but I see Lucy or Nicky's shadow as more likely... UNLESS Lashiels coin has already found itself a new holder. Then I guess I can see a whole Spiderman/Venom thing happening.
But as a whole I don't really buy into the whole scorned Fallen Angel angel. Lash wasn't tied to the to coin, she was free to develop unless Harry touched the Coin again. If that had happened Lash would have been consumed by Lashiel, at which point the Fallen would have gained all the personal intel some of you seem to think she has on Harry. I dont think Lashiel has current access to Harry's state of mind, what she has is a book of Harry that covers everything he remembers of his own life until he shields the coin (NOT the same thing as everything that's happened to him, and assuming she's still in the coin). Now if she was picked up by a new wielder they/she could investigate to see what Harry's doing , and potentially get pissed at being put off and plotting revenge.
What others have said may be right, but if anything I put forth give people other avenues of thought to explore I'm happy.
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Inez is where I see two branching possiblities... one is that she is Mab in disguise, the other is that she is Lashiel in disguise.
We have WoJ that Mab had a proxy at each conversation at the graveyard.
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The WoJ say that both Demonreach and Mab had a proxy in both conversation at Harry's grave, so we can take conversation number 1 Inez = Mab Proxy, Eternal Silence = Demonreach Proxy. Conversation number 2 Lea = Mab Proxy, Eternal Silence = Demonreach.
So it kind rules out Lash or Lasciel being at those scenes. Of course, Lash or Lasciel could be Inez while being proxy for Mab, possible, but I find hard to belive. Lasciel especially.
So I'll keep idea that Lash = Parasite, Lasciel = Whispering Shadow.
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I believe one of the consequences of Lasciel being the whispering shadow is that her coin must not be locked away behind a warding circle. It's at least strongly suggested that one of the effects of Lasciel's coin being buried in the concrete floor of Harry's lab was that Lash could diverge in personality and motivation from Lasciel. If Lasciel had been able to check up on the process while still being locked in two circles and buried, I don't think Harry could have had as strong an influence over time on Lash as he clearly did.
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I believe one of the consequences of Lasciel being the whispering shadow is that her coin must not be locked away behind a warding circle. It's at least strongly suggested that one of the effects of Lasciel's coin being buried in the concrete floor of Harry's lab was that Lash could diverge in personality and motivation from Lasciel. If Lasciel had been able to check up on the process while still being locked in two circles and buried, I don't think Harry could have had as strong an influence over time on Lash as he clearly did.
The coin was dug up at the end of White Night and given to Father Forthill.
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If Lasciel is really miffed at this upstart mortal who thinks he can not only defy her, but can actually turn her shadow away from her, then she is going to want to make him suffer for a good long time.
Not only does the upstart think he can defy her, he did. Harry might be the first person to ever cast off the shadow of a Fallen and he is almost certainly the first to ever cast off Lasciel's shadow and to reject the coin. Lasciel wants to nullify that victory as soon as possible.
Lasciel is probably uncertain how many more opportunities she will have to influence Harry and terrified that Harry might outmaneuver her again. I don't think Lasciel would risk the consequences of hatching long-run plans, she would look for the earliest and best opportunity to claim victory. Manipulating his suicide was probably the safest plan she could hatch to restore her pride; she can't risk failure a second time.
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The coin was dug up at the end of White Night and given to Father Forthill.
Right, but at some point, the coin went from "effectively warded" in Harry's basement (whatever "effective" means, it permitted the creation of Lash as a separate entity) to "not effectively warded" wherever it is right now. I don't think that was part of Harry's/Father Forthill's plan.
At some point, a mistake was made, allowing Lasciel to influence Harry in a way she wasn't capable of while buried in Harry's basement. The first possibility is that Father Forthill's methodology was flawed, and whatever precautions he took just weren't sufficient--Lasciel broke herself out. The second possibility is that somehow, at some point, Father Forthill's methodology was compromised, and Lasciel was able to affect Harry again, apparently without Father Forthill knowing of this security failure--someone else broke Lasciel out. (The third possibility is that Father Forthill is actually a bad guy; I don't think this is true, but I'll list it for completeness.)
Oh, regarding Lasciel's motivations and how that would affect her choices regarding Harry, note the (very appropriate) title of this thread. Lasciel may be a subtle temptress normally, but the implications of the relevant WoJ is that she is currently motivated by FURY. Forcing Harry into what he thinks is suicide fits that combination pretty well, in my opinion.
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Right, but at some point, the coin went from "effectively warded" in Harry's basement (whatever "effective" means, it permitted the creation of Lash as a separate entity) to "not effectively warded" wherever it is right now. I don't think that was part of Harry's/Father Forthill's plan.
At some point, a mistake was made, allowing Lasciel to influence Harry in a way she wasn't capable of while buried in Harry's basement. The first possibility is that Father Forthill's methodology was flawed, and whatever precautions he took just weren't sufficient--Lasciel broke herself out. The second possibility is that somehow, at some point, Father Forthill's methodology was compromised, and Lasciel was able to affect Harry again, apparently without Father Forthill knowing of this security failure--someone else broke Lasciel out. (The third possibility is that Father Forthill is actually a bad guy; I don't think this is true, but I'll list it for completeness.)
Oh, regarding Lasciel's motivations and how that would affect her choices regarding Harry, note the (very appropriate) title of this thread. Lasciel may be a subtle temptress normally, but the implications of the relevant WoJ is that she is currently motivated by FURY. Forcing Harry into what he thinks is suicide fits that combination pretty well, in my opinion.
I think shadow Lash seperated from Lasiel before Harry had a chance to ward the coin. I strongly doubt Forthill is a bad guy. He had an Angel Of Death vouch for him and willing to protect his Soul if he died to make sure he went upstairs. Nick said they recover about half the coins from the church, so either so church guards get corrupted or Nick and company send people in to get them back.
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I think shadow Lash seperated from Lasiel before Harry had a chance to ward the coin.
Yes, obviously. My point was different: we can also infer that Harry's warding of the coin was effective at keeping Lasciel from influencing him directly while the coin was buried in his basement. If Lasciel had been able to whisper in his ear whenever she wanted to during that period, I think it's not at all likely the Lash-personality would have been able to diverge at all. Since Lash clearly became something other than merely Lasciel's proxy, I think we should draw the conclusion that Lasciel was not supervising during this time.
Assuming that Lasciel was the whispering shadow, clearly something changed about Lasciel's containment that permitted her to reach out of the coin and whisper to Harry. We know that Harry dug up the coin and gave it to Father Forthill for safekeeping. It seems pretty likely that the containment failure occurred after that--my question is when, how, and who was responsible for un-blocking Lasciel's ability to communicate with Harry.
If the answer turns out to be that Nicodemus walked into St. Mary's and walked out with Lasciel's coin, and has had it for some time, I think that would be a pretty big deal, don't you?
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Yes, obviously. My point was different: we can also infer that Harry's warding of the coin was effective at keeping Lasciel from influencing him directly while the coin was buried in his basement. If Lasciel had been able to whisper in his ear whenever she wanted to during that period, I think it's not at all likely the Lash-personality would have been able to diverge at all. Since Lash clearly became something other than merely Lasciel's proxy, I think we should draw the conclusion that Lasciel was not supervising during this time.
Assuming that Lasciel was the whispering shadow, clearly something changed about Lasciel's containment that permitted her to reach out of the coin and whisper to Harry. We know that Harry dug up the coin and gave it to Father Forthill for safekeeping. It seems pretty likely that the containment failure occurred after that--my question is when, how, and who was responsible for un-blocking Lasciel's ability to communicate with Harry.
If the answer turns out to be that Nicodemus walked into St. Mary's and walked out with Lasciel's coin, and has had it for some time, I think that would be a pretty big deal, don't you?
Who said the coin was at St. Mary's? Would you want a really evil, dangerous and powerful coin being where lots of innocent people go to church and pray or would you put it in a hidden stronghold? Nick and company has family retainers that are mortal and serve him. A group of them could have found out where the coin is hidden and gotten it or hired a groups of mercenaries or monsters to get it. It is also possible the church containment of the coins is not so good and a guard was corrupted. It could be as simple as they see who is a guard. Capture that guard's loved ones and offer a trade. We don't know.
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I find it interesting that everyone assumes that lash is gone. As far as I can tell all we have to base this on is HARRY'S thoughts that she is no longer there. Are there any outside confirming factors that she is no longer in his head and didn't use the "psychic bullet" as a ploy to retreat further into his mind and begin a second stage of temptation. For that matter, why are you assuming that there even WAS a convergence between Lash (the shadow) and Lasciel (the fallen)? There is probably a good reason that she is known as a temptress and subtlety is her strong suit.
My counter is this: Lash is a controlled construct of Lasciel that was implemented specifically to seem to come to the "good" side altering Dresdens ability to differentiate between "good" and "evil". Lash's "conversion" was a staged event specifically targeted to soften him up. Now going into the second phase of a premeditated plan of conversion, having already offered him the carrot of a "Nice" fallen angel, she is using the stick of guilt and self-doubt to goad him into acts that he might not go along with otherwise.
If you allow that Lasciel is one smart cookie, as was stated, then why is it not beyond her to manipulate him at a distance while at the same time giving him a false sense of triumph that he "beat" a fallen angel. This just serves to give her a stronger point of attack using surprise should she ever actually decide to lock him down as Nicodemus ordered her to, that option is still on the table imho, but it will wait until the time is right for Lasciel to benefit the most from it, not another fallen angel.
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everyone assumes that lash is gone.
We don't, we have WoJ she is still alive and appeared in Ghost Story.
Lash's "conversion" was a staged event specifically targeted to soften him up.
We have WoJ Harry changed her.
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Lash, like Polka, will never die (unless Jim kills her :'()
I also don't think he would have been awarded Soulfire for getting suckered by a Fallens shadow.
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For all we know Lasciel's coin may still be in St. Mary's. It may not have been that much of a distance for Lasciel to send out her shadow to Harry. We really don't know. Besides that, we know the denarians can have influence here on earth beyond their coin via WoJ.
Actually, we have WOJ, that the coin is *NOT* at St Mary's anymore...
“3.) Where are the coins kept? Does Father Forthill keep them at St. Mary’s or are they sent to the Vatican?”
Neither. :)
- Source (http://www.bittenbybooks.com/45367/author-jim-butcher-guest-appearance-qa-and-contest-live-here/)
This, and the fact that I'd read a older WOJ quote that has Jim, actually stumbling over the distinction between Lash & Lashiel, I wasn't certain if the quote wasn't mangled (since I only hear 2nd hand vague indications). This thread was the first time I ran into the actual quote.
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What I've been trying to get at is that the Lasciel-as-whispering-shadow theory (which I think is true) has consequences as far as the plot goes.
1) It means that Lasciel's coin is not in a secure location right now--middle of Changes through the end of GS.
2) If Salacia's reasoning is correct, and I found it quite convincing, Lasciel's coin hasn't been in a secure location for some time--since TC.
3) As best we can tell, neither Harry nor Father Forthill know this is the case! They think that wherever Father Forthill put the coin is still secure.
So the question is, did Father Forthill merely fail to ward the coin sufficiently (doubtful, given his position as KotC support), or has someone stolen the coin or compromised the wards such that Lasciel can now influence Harry? And if so, who did it?
By the way, if Salacia is right that "Because you need your brother to be all right" was the first whisper from Lasciel, that would support a Nicodemus-stole-Lasciel's-coin theory sometime between the end of SmF and the middle of TC. Remember, Nicodemus finds out that the Denarian hole card of Lasciel's shadow in Harry's brain doesn't work at the end of SmF. Since Nicodemus is terrified of Harry (WoJ) and his Lasciel-plot has clearly gone awry, he'd be very motivated to recover the coin and we know he has extensive experience in recovering coins from Church custody.
That doesn't mean that Nicodemus/Anduriel would know about Lasciel's revenge plot against Harry. At the end of SmF, Harry told Nicodemus, "Lasciel's shadow doesn't live here anymore." We find out later that Harry was wrong about this, but it was what Harry believed at the time, and I'm quite sure Nicodemus was able to note Harry's sincerity. I think it's pretty likely that if Harry actually had found a way to permanently remove Lasciel's shadow, that would have the effect of breaking his connection to Lasciel's coin, possibly by severing the principle of contagion permitting Lasciel's whispering communication. If Nicodemus compromised Church security (...again...) and stole the coin, Lasciel may well have decided not to tell Nicodemus that her line of communication with Harry was back open--we're told that Lasciel and Anduriel generally don't work together.
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3) As best we can tell, neither Harry nor Father Forthill know this is the case! They think that wherever Father Forthill put the coin is still secure.
Considering that the church thought Lasciel's coin was in a monastery in Chile when Nicodemus offered it to Harry, I would say that it is quite possible that Nicodemus stole it again while no one was looking and gave it to someone else.
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Considering that the church thought Lasciel's coin was in a monastery in Chile when Nicodemus offered it to Harry, I would say that it is quite possible that Nicodemus stole it again while no one was looking and gave it to someone else.
Don't you get the feeling that at some point Harry is going to have a conversation with Lasciel, I mean Lasciel and whatever poor fool took up her coin?
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Don't you get the feeling that at some point Harry is going to have a conversation with Lasciel, I mean Lasciel and whatever poor fool took up her coin?
This assumes that Lasciel has bound another host. I don't think Lasciel can do that and still be able to whisper to Harry, though that's a pure guess on my part. Assuming Lasciel is the whispering shadow, that would mean she still had a whisper-link connection to Harry midway through Changes.
1) If Lasciel can only form a connection to one host/potential host at a time:
1a) Lasciel might have bound another host after forcing Harry to commit "suicide," and no longer maintains a whisper-link to Harry.
1b) Lasciel might still be bound only to Harry.
2) If Lasciel can form a connection to multiple hosts/potential hosts at a time:
2a) Lasciel might have bound another host before whispering to Harry.
2b) Lasciel might have bound another host after whispering to Harry, and still has a whisper-link to Harry.
We don't have enough information to know which of the above is the case. I think 1) is more likely to be true than 2), but I don't recall any specific text/WoJ evidence for or against it. I also think 1b) is specifically the current case, but again, I don't know of evidence either way.
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I don't think Lasciel can do that and still be able to whisper to Harry
We have WoJ they can whisper to people other than their host if they have a host, it also says their range in doing so is limited to earth only.
Don't you get the feeling that at some point Harry is going to have a conversation with Lasciel,
Probably, there'll probably also be a Harry and Lash vs. Lasciel and her new host fight.
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That doesn't mean that Nicodemus/Anduriel would know about Lasciel's revenge plot against Harry. At the end of SmF, Harry told Nicodemus, "Lasciel's shadow doesn't live here anymore." We find out later that Harry was wrong about this, but it was what Harry believed at the time, and I'm quite sure Nicodemus was able to note Harry's sincerity. I think it's pretty likely that if Harry actually had found a way to permanently remove Lasciel's shadow, that would have the effect of breaking his connection to Lasciel's coin, possibly by severing the principle of contagion permitting Lasciel's whispering communication. If Nicodemus compromised Church security (...again...) and stole the coin, Lasciel may well have decided not to tell Nicodemus that her line of communication with Harry was back open--we're told that Lasciel and Anduriel generally don't work together.
Harry was right, Lasciel's shadow didn't live in his head anymore, she had become "Lash." She had changed, and even if she was still there, at that moment she was still gravely wounded..
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Harry was right, Lasciel's shadow didn't live in his head anymore, she had become "Lash." She had changed, and even if she was still there, at that moment she was still gravely wounded..
No, that's not what Harry meant. At that point in SmF, Harry believed that Lash had effectively committed "suicide" to save him in the Raith Deeps, and was therefore "dead" and gone (for whatever values "dead" has for an angelic shadow/mental construct).
Harry believed that Lash was not pining for the fjords; she'd passed on; this shadow was no more; she had ceased to be. Lash had expired and gone to meet her Maker; she's a stiff; bereft of life, she rests in peace. If she hadn't been a mental construct that lived only in Harry's head, she'd be pushing up the daisies; her metabolic processes are now history; she's off the twig; she's kicked the bucket; she's shuffled off her mortal coil; run down the curtain and (re-)joined the choir invisible. Lash is an ex-parrotshadowy resident of Harry's mind.
But now she's back, though Harry may not realize it yet, depending on whether he correctly deduced the identity of the "parasite" mentioned in the cave on Demonreach.
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While I personally belive a denarian shouldn't be able to influence a possible host, beside the construct they put in their mind to tempt them. We have no proof of it. So maybe we are doing a lot of noise about Lasciel not being able to whisper for Harry, when it's possible that it's completely under her power to do so..
Also, there are a lot of explanations that could allow Lasciel do whisper like that, Nic and the other nickleheads could have helped her by recovering her coin and making some kind of spell, Lucifer could have helped the Denarians again...
I don't think there is such thing as the church not warding the coins right.. While it was under Harry wardens, he could acces hellfire and Lash and Harry kept saying that if he wanted he could summon the coin at any momment... So, I dont see Harry warding of the coin doing any good... Maybe only stopping other person to pick up the coin..
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Well, here's the logical chain supporting the theory:
We have WoJ that Lasciel was in GS, but not referred to by name. The majority theory is that Lasciel was the whispering shadow, both because you can construct a logical set of motivations that would cause Lasciel to act in that way, and because there aren't any alternative appearances that make more sense. Therefore, for what follows, we are assuming that Lasciel was the whispering shadow.
Logically, if Lasciel was the whispering shadow, she would have to actually have the ability to whisper in Harry's head. Yes, this is obvious, but it's also important. If you go back and check the scene at the end of DM from Harry's first contact with Lasciel's coin up to the point where he encloses it in the circle and buries it in his basement, I seem to remember rather a lot of Lasciel talking in his head, even when he no longer had skin contact with the coin. This mental contact abruptly cut off when the warding circle closed around the coin.
(The counterargument would be that this was all proto-Lash, the shadow Lasciel had just stuck in Harry's head, and the whispering cut off as part of the shadow's long con, tricking Harry into thinking--wrongly--that his direct, whisper-link connection to Lasciel had been cut off by the effects of the warding circle. This doesn't work, however, because it would completely undercut the entire Lash plotline, and JB has been quite clear that the Lash plotline was legitimate--Harry did manage to change Lasciel's shadow into Lash. Therefore, we can conclude that Harry's ward was effective, and it did cut off direct contact between him and Lasciel.)
Now, if Harry's ward was effective, and Lasciel's shadow was able to transform into Lash in the absence of Lasciel's supervision, how was Lasciel later able to contact Harry again in Changes? If Salacia's theory at the beginning of this thread is correct, Lasciel's whispers began in TC, and continued until the missing scene in Changes that was revealed in GS. Logically, we must conclude that Lasciel's coin was no longer behind a working warding circle, potentially as far back as sometime during TC.
We know that Harry dug up the coin after Lash "died" in the Raith Deeps at the end of WN, and handed it over to Father Forthill for safekeeping. We don't know its exact movements from that point, but since Father Forthill has been KotC support for many years and knew very well the significance and danger of the coin, we should expect that he was extremely careful. On the other hand, Nicodemus has made a hobby of recovering coins from the Church for about 2000 years, with moderate success.
Nicodemus first learns that his plot to corrupt Harry using Lasciel's coin has completely failed at the end of SmF, when he tries to use Lasciel's shadow to defeat Harry just off the shore of Demonreach. Harry tricks him into thinking it worked for a moment, and then utterly horrifies Nicodemus by revealing that the shadow isn't there anymore. Harry works really hard at finishing him off right then, but we have WoJ that Nicodemus escaped, and we'll see him again in the book after CD.
So. You're Nicodemus at the end of SmF, and you've just discovered that Lasciel's coin did not do the job of removing Harry from his current mission--"saving the world, one act of random destruction at a time." We have no text or WoJ evidence to tell us what Nicodemus was up to after the end of SmF, so this is all purely conjecture. However, it would make sense for Nicodemus to do what he's done before, infiltrating the Church to recover one of the coins. If he did so, and was successful at removing Lasciel's coin from whatever warding circle held it, the timing makes perfect sense for Lasciel to start whispering to Harry again midway through TC, as in Salacia's theory.
To be sure, this chain of logic involves guesswork and supposition as far as the activities of Nicodemus and Lasciel. On the other hand, I don't think there's any suggestion in the books or WoJs that it's NOT right (please let me know if you think of any), and all of the actions taken in the theory are consistent with the known knowledge, motivations, and past practices of the entities involved, as far as I can tell.
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A thought, what are the odds that Nicodemus has been focusing on getting coins back since Death Masks? He was down to having Diedre as the only Denarian following him, what are the odds he got Lasciel's coin back in the time between White Night and Turn Coat?
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I still don't like to place Lashiel there, but if the shadow was her, it might also explain the resurgence of Lash. Maybe just having contact with Lashiel rebooted her. (Some think the headaches, in TC, were related, but because of the tarp over Little Chicago, I'm personally leaning towards the mental tampering myself.)
Also, while I didn't recall this, but only recently ran into it, apparently angels have Intellectus, per Harry's conversation in Turn Coat. And would explain why Harry was able to resist the temptation of a coin.
If Lashiel's shadow had access to Intellectus, she'd be more likely to know how to get to Harry. However, since Harry locked off the coin, the shadow (Lash) couldn't confer with her progenitor. Ergo, Harry only had to contend with the copy.
Not a copy that could get advice from the original.
Kevin
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I do not recall any whispering in Harry's head in Turn Coat. The last whisper Harry hears from Lash comes at the end of White Night, after supposedly Lash was dead.. That is when he dug up the coin and gave it to Father Forthill. The coin was rejected, end story, because if you go on that theory, Sanya should also still be under the influence etc, because he actually took up the coin and worked under the influence till he rejected it and became a Holy Knight. We have the WOJ that Harry changed Lasciel's shadow, she became Lash.. So she was no longer there to take over in Turn Coat, the shadow had been changed and the coin rejected.
I find it troubling that a shadow of the Fallen could turn up on Holy ground to begin with, I thought that was impossible. People like to point to Lasciel's shadow, but when she was there before it was in Harry's head, not independent. If the coin was close by in protected so no one could get to it, I think it is possible that Lasciel still could project herself, especially since Harry had been in contact with her before. Remember her shadow became Sheila and then took up residence in Harry's head while still buried and in the circle that Harry tried to shut her up in.
Now one has to ask the question, if that was indeed a projection of Lasciel whispering to Harry in Changes, why did she push for his suicide rather than try to get him to take up the coin? Harry was desperate enough to become Winter Knight, was he also desperate enough to trade his soul to save little Maggie? If so, why not offer? Or was Lasciel rejecting Harry now as a host, going instead for revenge because she was so soundly rejected.
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Or was Lasciel rejecting Harry now as a host, going instead for revenge because she was so soundly rejected.
Considering the "woman scorned" WoJ we have about her......
I find it troubling that a shadow of the Fallen could turn up on Holy ground to begin with, I thought that was impossible.
Technically, it was Lasciel proper (assuming the Lasciel=whispering shadow theory is correct) whispering to Harry, and the Fallen can go into churches, they just don't like to according to Harry in Small Favour.
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Now one has to ask the question, if that was indeed a projection of Lasciel whispering to Harry in Changes, why did she push for his suicide rather than try to get him to take up the coin? Harry was desperate enough to become Winter Knight, was he also desperate enough to trade his soul to save little Maggie? If so, why not offer? Or was Lasciel rejecting Harry now as a host, going instead for revenge because she was so soundly rejected.
I find it pretty simple actually Mira, Uriel says in GS that the creature knew enough of mankind to know exactly what kind of decision it would take. So Lasciel (Assumin she was the whispering shadow as I belive) would know that if Harry needed power he would go first for Mab. Since she was the lesser evil, and if you analize it the option with best probability of succes. She would heal him at the moment and could provide help instantly. While the Denarian were hardly all together somewhere in the world where Harry could call them instantly... And the Darkhallow, would take to long to make, plus since wouldn't be done on hallowen, without the spirit borders being weakned and without the erlking being summoned, would give much a smaller booster than it was mentioned in DB. So both Darkhallow and the Denarians would actually need time to pull it off, that if you analize, Harry did not have.
So Mab was the logical conclusion, and Lasciel knew Harry would go for her. Even if he bluffed Mab about the Denarians and the Darkhallow. So she knew that the best she could acomplish was get him to kill himself..
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I do not recall any whispering in Harry's head in Turn Coat.
This was from the first post in this thread, and it's part of Salacia's theory that the whispering shadow revealed in GS wasn't the first time Lasciel had whispered in Harry's head, it was just the time with the biggest effect.
Harry and Bob are discussing what shagnasty did with Thomas during TC.
“He’s alive,” I said quietly. “Or at least I’m going to proceed on that assumption.
Bob somehow managed to look baffled. “Why?”
Because you need your brother to be all right, whispered a quiet voice in my head. “Because anything else isn’t particularly useful in resolving this situation,” I said aloud.
And the voice causes Harry momentary despair.
The italicized bit is rather telling, I think. Salacia searched for similar phrasing, and only found that line in TC and a few specific lines in Changes, which would fit the timeline I suggested above. Re-read her post at the beginning of this thread; it's quite well done.
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This was from the first post in this thread, and it's part of Salacia's theory that the whispering shadow revealed in GS wasn't the first time Lasciel had whispered in Harry's head, it was just the time with the biggest effect.
And the voice causes Harry momentary despair.
The italicized bit is rather telling, I think. Salacia searched for similar phrasing, and only found that line in TC and a few specific lines in Changes, which would fit the timeline I suggested above. Re-read her post at the beginning of this thread; it's quite well done.
I respectfully disagree, I believe you are reading too much into it. Actually there are examples all though the series, going back as far as Storm Front where Harry talks to himself in exactly that tone.
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Hmm, I seem to have phrased my point poorly. I didn't mean that the content of the italicized part was telling, I meant that its description was telling.
Because you need your brother to be all right, whispered a quiet voice in my head.
Given the significance of mental manipulation in the series, and specifically the nature of the Lasciel/Lash plotline, we should not quickly dismiss "a quiet voice whispering in Harry's head" as merely being part of Harry's normal internal thought processes.
I don't remember examples from Storm Front (or other books) where we're told "a quiet voice whispered in Harry's head," and we were meant to conclude that this was Harry thinking to himself. Can you provide examples from the text?
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Hmm, I seem to have phrased my point poorly. I didn't mean that the content of the italicized part was telling, I meant that its description was telling.
Because you need your brother to be all right, whispered a quiet voice in my head.
Given the significance of mental manipulation in the series, and specifically the nature of the Lasciel/Lash plotline, we should not quickly dismiss "a quiet voice whispering in Harry's head" as merely being part of Harry's normal internal thought processes.
I don't remember examples from Storm Front (or other books) where we're told "a quiet voice whispered in Harry's head," and we were meant to conclude that this was Harry thinking to himself. Can you provide examples from the text?
I can, but that will have to wait a while, I am up to my arm pits in holiday baking. However I will point out that Harry also had whole dialogues with himself when asleep and when injured, even an alternate Harry appearing in his vision before Lasciel ever became part of the picture, Fool Moon comes to mind. So even though I hear what you are saying about the image of the "quiet whisper" I do not think it is as straight forward.
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I seem to remember rather a lot of Lasciel talking in his head, even when he no longer had skin contact with the coin. This mental contact abruptly cut off when the warding circle closed around the coin.
There was no Lasciel/Lash talking before the coin was put in the circle. That was the first thing Harry did after picking up the coin. It was only much later (after he chose to use hellfire) that he had an actual conversation with what became Lash. You could argue he never communicated with Lasciel.
Logically, if Lasciel was the whispering shadow, she would have to actually have the ability to whisper in Harry's head. Yes, this is obvious, but it's also important.... If Salacia's theory at the beginning of this thread is correct, Lasciel's whispers began in TC, and continued until the missing scene in Changes that was revealed in GS. Logically, we must conclude that Lasciel's coin was no longer behind a working warding circle, potentially as far back as sometime during TC.
Of course, this also assumes that the fallen in the coins would be allowed to "break the rules" an awful lot. You have to remember that that communication from the fallen angel to Harry was in some way a breaking of the rules that allowed a reply by Uriel. Somehow, I don't think a Denarian lying to their coinholder counts as breaking the rules. Once someone has chosen to open themselves up to a Denarian, they are allowed to talk/lie/ to their holder. So if this was Lasciel using her connection to Harry, then the lie may not have counted as a breaking of the rules.
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There was no Lasciel/Lash talking before the coin was put in the circle. That was the first thing Harry did after picking up the coin. It was only much later (after he chose to use hellfire) that he had an actual conversation with what became Lash. You could argue he never communicated with Lasciel.
I remember there being communication on some level, though, because Harry found it difficult to bury the coin due to Lasciel's influence. I'd have to re-read the scene to sort it all out.
Of course, this also assumes that the fallen in the coins would be allowed to "break the rules" an awful lot. You have to remember that that communication from the fallen angel to Harry was in some way a breaking of the rules that allowed a reply by Uriel. Somehow, I don't think a Denarian lying to their coinholder counts as breaking the rules. Once someone has chosen to open themselves up to a Denarian, they are allowed to talk/lie/ to their holder. So if this was Lasciel using her connection to Harry, then the lie may not have counted as a breaking of the rules.
The "breaking the rules" bit wasn't the fact of the communication itself, or the lie as such. It was specifically a lie told in circumstances that would force mortal's "choice" such that he could not exercise his free will, and that "choice" led to the mortal's death. The key points are the breaking of a mortal's free will, and that mortal's death as a direct consequence. (Uriel clarifies this when Harry asks why Shagnasty's horrendous torture of Thomas--including specifically the breaking of his free will in forcing him to kill repeatedly--did not count as "cheating/breaking the rules." According to Uriel, this was not sufficient because Thomas did not die as a result.)
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I remember there being communication on some level, though, because Harry found it difficult to bury the coin due to Lasciel's influence. I'd have to re-read the scene to sort it all out.
Actually if you read the end of Death Masks, Harry had no trouble at all burying the coin. The coin did whisper softly, "Harry," but Harry sang songs to himself to counter it as he chipped away the concrete to dig the hole to bury it, then he put a magic ring around it and the whispering was cut off.. However it wasn't as effective as Harry thought it would be, because in Dead Beat, Lasciel had broken through as Shelia..
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Lasciel had broken through as Shelia..
It was Lasciel's shadow creating the Shiela illusion, not Lasciel herself.
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I have to say OP, this is an excellent piece of deductive work. The picture you've assembled is awesome, and I'm pretty much convinced that this is what's going on. it makes perfect sense. Good job! ;D
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A thought, what are the odds that Nicodemus has been focusing on getting coins back since Death Masks? He was down to having Diedre as the only Denarian following him, what are the odds he got Lasciel's coin back in the time between White Night and Turn Coat?
Actually, that may not be completely true. With cassius, it was the mortal body that Nic thought was weak, not the fallen inside the coin. If Nic looted any coins from the church (besides Laschiels,) he could have Ursiel and the other (I don't remember the name of Cassius' fallen right now) with him next time.
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With cassius, it was the mortal body that Nic thought was weak, not the fallen inside the coin.
Where did I say that Nicodemus thought Saluriel (Cassius' Fallen) was weak?
he could have Ursiel and the other (I don't remember the name of Cassius' fallen right now) with him next time.
Don't forget the other 2 coins held by the church in Death Masks, he'll probably have them as well (Nicodemus supposedly runs around with 6 Fallen including himself, we've seen 4).
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The relevant bits from DM, from the last three pages of the book (underline added by me, other emphasis from the original text):
I panicked abruptly and lunged out ahead of him, slapping my hand down over a polished silver coin before the child could squat down to pick it up. I felt a prickling jolt shoot up my arm, and had the sudden, intangible impression that someone nearby was waking up from a nap and stretching.
...
I left the cookout without saying good-bye, and headed home. I heard something the whole time, something whispering almost inaudibly. I drowned it out with loud and off-key singing, and got to work.
Ten hours later, I put down the excavating pick and glowered at the two-foot hole I had chipped in my lab's concrete floor. The whispering in my head had segued into "Sympathy for the Devil" by the Stones.
"Harry," whispered a gentle voice.
I dropped the coin into the hole. I slipped a steel ring about three inches across around it. I muttered to myself and willed energy into the ring. The whispering abruptly cut off.
The underlined phrasing is consistent with the description of the examples Salacia gave in the original post. "whispered a quiet voice in my head," "a voice somewhere within the storm of my chest whispered," "whispered a voice in the back of my head," and "said the little sane voice in my head" all have some combination of the specific phrases "whisper[ed/ing]," "voice," and "in my head." In each case, the content of the whisper is something that would induce despair or self-destructive action on Harry's part, consistent with the eventual effect of the whispering shadow's seven words.
There is reason to think this is not an accident. We know that JB's writing style uses "tags," or specific, repeated phrases linked to a given character that are meant to evoke the memory of that character. In this case, the scene in DM would be setting up a tag of "anonymous whispering voice in Harry's head" as a marker of Lasciel's influence. This wouldn't mean that every whisper Harry hears would be Lasciel, but in order for the tag system to work unambiguously, other whispers would have to be linked to a specified not-Lasciel speaker. So phrases like "I said to myself" would not be at all the same thing, because that indicates a conversation that was purely internal to Harry.
Here's what would disprove, or at least weaken, the theory: an example of an anonymous whispering voice in Harry's head that is later clearly established to be someone other than Lasciel. "Hush, now" is a possibility (the second whisper at the very end of Changes), because that's often believed to be Mab, but in the context revealed later in GS, it's possible that it was Lasciel--either explanation makes sense, though the meaning would be very different.
what are the odds he got Lasciel's coin back in the time between White Night and Turn Coat?
It would definitely be the sort of thing Nicodemus has done before, though the timing for Lasciel's coin would have to be "after Small Favor" not just "after White Night." Remember, at the end of SmF, it comes as a huge shock to Nicodemus that Lasciel's shadow doesn't take over Harry's body, and I'd expect that he'd know this if he had already recovered Lasciel's coin. I think that Harry's reveal at the end of SmF was what caused Nicodemus to seek out and recover Lasciel's coin. He may well have been hunting other coins before then.
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The underlined phrasing is consistent with the description of the examples Salacia gave in the original post. "whispered a quiet voice in my head," "a voice somewhere within the storm of my chest whispered," "whispered a voice in the back of my head," and "said the little sane voice in my head" all have some combination of the specific phrases "whisper[ed/ing]," "voice," and "in my head." In each case, the content of the whisper is something that would induce despair or self-destructive action on Harry's part, consistent with the eventual effect of the whispering shadow's seven words.
Except that in the final page when he buries the coin, he talks about what he is doing to combat the whisper, there is also a sense of determination to bury the coin. If it was inducing despair or self destruction, it wasn't at that moment.. On the contrary, we see the character and strength with in Harry that ultimately lead to his rejection of it even in the face of madness or death in White Night.
That isn't to say the Lasciel didn't show up to whisper those seven words to Harry in Changes, or that she didn't know the right buttons to push in her the intended victim of her revenge.. However it was outside influences that brought Harry to this vulnerable state, not any continued whispering of Lasciel. Harry fought against the odds as he always does, trying to get a coalition together to try and save his little girl, it wasn't till he was paralyzed with a severed spinal cord, on a back board in Father Forthill's back room with no more options left, that he gave into despair, that is when evil pounced as evil always does, "and it is all your fault..."
The words were malevolent, with no other intention than to destroy Harry, to drive him to suicide. The past influences of Lasciel or her shadow was to manipulate Harry into accepting the coin, to do her will to do evil to others not himself. Harry had thrown that off he had rejected her and she was pissed. It may be that just because the coins are taken out of circulation, it doesn't mean the fallen trapped within is still without some ability independent of it.
Notice also that when Uriel showed the playback, the image was beside Harry whispering, if it came from inside his head, I do not think he could have seen anything, nor do I think if Lasciel had remain an influence at all, that Uriel would either have appeared to Harry or give him Soul Fire.
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Except that in the final page when he buries the coin, he talks about what he is doing to combat the whisper, there is also a sense of determination to bury the coin. If it was inducing despair or self destruction, it wasn't at that moment..
Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry? Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him. The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait.
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Except that in the final page when he buries the coin, he talks about what he is doing to combat the whisper, there is also a sense of determination to bury the coin. If it was inducing despair or self destruction, it wasn't at that moment.. On the contrary, we see the character and strength with in Harry that ultimately lead to his rejection of it even in the face of madness or death in White Night.
I should have said, "in each of the examples Salacia quotes." Of course Lasciel wasn't trying to induce despair or (directly) self-destructive action in the section I quoted from DM. She didn't have the motive to do so yet. I quoted the section from DM to lay out the argument that JB was setting up a tag to identify Lasciel's influence later in the series, and then showed how the sections Salacia quoted from TC and Changes were consistent with that tag. Salacia's four quotes were also consistent with each other by evident motivation, which would tend to support the conclusion that they were from the same source, as they happened reasonably near each other in time (one from TC, the others from Changes).
However it was outside influences that brought Harry to this vulnerable state, not any continued whispering of Lasciel.
How do you know this? We've presented a reasonably compelling argument that Lasciel had in fact been whispering to Harry over a period of time before he broke his back. There were certainly several other large factors that contributed to Harry's very painful overall situation, but I don't see why you're assuming that Lasciel's whisper was a one-time event when there is evidence to the contrary.
Notice also that when Uriel showed the playback, the image was beside Harry whispering, if it came from inside his head, I do not think he could have seen anything, nor do I think if Lasciel had remain an influence at all, that Uriel would either have appeared to Harry or give him Soul Fire.
It sounds like you are making an argument here that Lasciel wasn't the whispering shadow. If that's your argument, and if you're right, where did Lasciel appear in GS?
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Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry? Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him. The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait.
The point is she failed. Her shadow fell in love with Harry and took his side and helped him.. The moment Lasciel's shadow truly becomes Lash, not just Harry's nickname for her, she says pointedly, softly, shaking her head, "She doesn't deserve you.." So not just Harry scorned Lasciel, but her own shadow did. Also remember what distressed Lasciel/Lash so much was when her host Harry died, she died.. So the fallen angel's revenge wasn't just on Harry it was on her shadow, Lash as well, both scorned her.
How do you know this? We've presented a reasonably compelling argument that Lasciel had in fact been whispering to Harry over a period of time before he broke his back. There were certainly several other large factors that contributed to Harry's very painful overall situation, but I don't see why you're assuming that Lasciel's whisper was a one-time event when there is evidence to the contrary.
No, we have no facts, it is never said that it was, those are merely guesses. Since Lasciel's shadow had been doing all of the whispering and she got transformed back in White Night, she also got transformed into Lash by her love for Harry. She became independent of Lasciel, there is evidence shortly after in White Night when she says "all that I can my host..." after Harry plays and just before he digs up the coin and gives to to Father Forthill, that Lash whispered to Harry. That wasn't Lasciel, we also have the WOJ if you believe him that the only appearance of Lasciel after that was in Changes.
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It sounds like you are making an argument here that Lasciel wasn't the whispering shadow. If that's your argument, and if you're right, where did Lasciel appear in GS?
Oh Lasciel did appear in Changes and was the whispering shadow we see in GS. My argument is she is not the one who is whispering anything to Harry in Turn Coat.. There is no evidence of it.
Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry? Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him. The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait.
Except back in Death Masks through to that point in White Night, she was trying to seduce Harry to take up the coin.. He didn't, in the cave in White Night, her shadow tried desperately to get Harry to take up the coin, to save both their lives. Harry refused.. Then Lasciel becoming Lash, says " she doesn't deserve you." At that moment the fallen angel Lasciel became the woman scorned. Not just by Harry, but by her own shadow because of Harry. At that point she wanted them both dead. And yeah, revenge is a dish best served cold.. She waited, till Harry reached his lowest point, along with facts he could not argue against.. 1] he was helpless. 2] He was little Maggie's father, while how she got into trouble maybe wasn't his fault, the fact that she was in the world, was. "And it is all your fault.." Those are not the words of seduction, those are the words of revenge.
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The point is she failed. Her shadow fell in love with Harry and took his side and helped him.. The moment Lasciel's shadow truly becomes Lash, not just Harry's nickname for her, she says pointedly, softly, shaking her head, "She doesn't deserve you.." So not just Harry scorned Lasciel, but her own shadow did. Also remember what distressed Lasciel/Lash so much was when her host Harry died, she died.. So the fallen angel's revenge wasn't just on Harry it was on her shadow, Lash as well, both scorned her.
All the examples of whispering Vairelome posted happen after White Night. After Lash has sacrificed herself. After Lasciel's coin was dug up from its place in Harry's basement. Lasciel found out what had happened either at the moment the circle was broken (since Lash is still there she'd have had a link, albeit a weak one) or after she was recovered by Nicodemus (if she was).
No, we have no facts, it is never said that it was, those are merely guesses. Since Lasciel's shadow had been doing all of the whispering and she got transformed back in White Night, she also got transformed into Lash by her love for Harry. She became independent of Lasciel, there is evidence shortly after in White Night when she says "all that I can my host..." after Harry plays and just before he digs up the coin and gives to to Father Forthill, that Lash whispered to Harry. That wasn't Lasciel, we also have the WOJ if you believe him that the only appearance of Lasciel after that was in Changes.
It's not being said that Lash was the one doing the whispering. We're saying that after Lasciel's coin was unburied she became the one to whisper in Harry's ear the depressing thoughts that have already been posted.
Oh Lasciel did appear in Changes and was the whispering shadow we see in GS. My argument is she is not the one who is whispering anything to Harry in Turn Coat.. There is no evidence of it.
There are educated guesses. The series isn't finished so we can't look back with hindsight, only post our theories from the evidence we have in the released books. This seems like a semi-solid theory to me with decent evidence to back it up.
Except back in Death Masks through to that point in White Night, she was trying to seduce Harry to take up the coin.. He didn't, in the cave in White Night, her shadow tried desperately to get Harry to take up the coin, to save both their lives. Harry refused.. Then Lasciel becoming Lash, says " she doesn't deserve you." At that moment the fallen angel Lasciel became the woman scorned. Not just by Harry, but by her own shadow because of Harry. At that point she wanted them both dead. And yeah, revenge is a dish best served cold.. She waited, till Harry reached his lowest point, along with facts he could not argue against.. 1] he was helpless. 2] He was little Maggie's father, while how she got into trouble maybe wasn't his fault, the fact that she was in the world, was. "And it is all your fault.." Those are not the words of seduction, those are the words of revenge.
True enough, we're just arguing that Lasciel possibly whispered more than once. Think of it as following a marked path to a river, rather than hoping to find an oasis. Chances are Harry would have found himself at the lowest point he could at some point, and Lasciel would be there, but it's also true that continued whispering would make him more likely to take the course of action that would result in his death. Besides, it fits Lasciel's MO to give subtle nudges every so often, rather than one big strike.
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I apologize if this point has been brought up before, but this is a long thread.
I don't see why Lasciel would want to destroy Harry in the first place. She's the Web Weaver, the Deceiver, she's been around since the dawn of time. She isn't human, in any sense of the word. All that Harry has done so far is proven himself to be more powerful than any other host that she has ever dealt with. Keep in mind the sense of scope we're talking about here: Since the dawn of time, Harry is the only one to have not taken up the coin already.
Harry is unique, to her. Not in the human sense of the word, where everyone's a special snowflake or whatever, but truly unique, in the I've-been-alive-since-the-dawn-of-time-and-you're-the-only-one sense of the word. Why would Lasciel go for the short-term vindication of destroying someone so truly special? In the sense of scope that she plays in, why waste what is such a truly epic resource?
Tl;Dr: Lasciel plays long term. Why settle for a short-term, destructive goal?
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Tl;Dr: Lasciel plays long term. Why settle for a short-term, destructive goal?
Hell hath no fury for scorned woman?? They dont tend to be pratical in these situations, especially since as Mira pointed, she is probally also furious with Lash.
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So two thoughts:
-- Lasciel, being a cosmic being and all, just she know that Uriel can intervene if she whispers those 7 words? Why doesn't she take into consideration that Harry's death won't take? Or maybe she *did* take it into account...
-- What do you guys think of Lasciel's coin being stored at the Carpenters? I mean, it's apparently a more secure place to store Maggie Jr. than any other place in whole with the angel guards and Mouse and all.
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Tl;Dr: Lasciel plays long term. Why settle for a short-term, destructive goal?
What Paladino said, with the added point that the title of this thread comes from the following WOJ concerning Lasciel's current motivations:
2009 Chicago signing:
Q: Will we see Lash or Lasciel again?
A: Lasciel’s story is not over. And keep in mind what’s said about ‘a woman scorned.’ Also keep in mind that Lasciel is NOT Lash; Lasciel did not reabsorb the entity that Harry actually changed. (Yes, he use those words “that Harry actually changed.”)
JB is referring to the proverb, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." The clear implication is that Lasciel has discovered that her shadow has failed in its mission--to get Harry to claim Lasciel's coin--and is furious at Harry's rejection of her. IF she is aware that her shadow not only failed, but also switched teams and is not "dead," then Mira is right in that Lasciel would be furious at Lash as well as Harry. (There's a chance that Lasciel was told that her shadow had been somehow destroyed, and has not yet found out otherwise. Certainly, once she discovers the truth about Lash, Lash will be right at the top of Lasciel's hit list.)
-- Lasciel, being a cosmic being and all, just she know that Uriel can intervene if she whispers those 7 words? Why doesn't she take into consideration that Harry's death won't take? Or maybe she *did* take it into account...
Lasciel is described as a temptress, a webweaver, a deceiver of great subtlety. However, according to the author, she is now in a state of fury, and furious people tend not to be cautious, even if they are normally so. They tend to disregard reasons for not smashing whatever it is that they are furious at. In this case, Lasciel probably did not consider the downsides--Harry Dresden dared to reject her, and for that he must die. Her tendency to subtlety and manipulation came through in the manner that she engineered his death, which was to force him into committing "suicide."
-- What do you guys think of Lasciel's coin being stored at the Carpenters? I mean, it's apparently a more secure place to store Maggie Jr. than any other place in whole with the angel guards and Mouse and all.
Well, the daycare center above the police station is a very safe place to keep your kids, but that doesn't mean you'd want to store nuclear waste in the same building.
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All the examples of whispering Vairelome posted happen after White Night. After Lash has sacrificed herself. After Lasciel's coin was dug up from its place in Harry's basement. Lasciel found out what had happened either at the moment the circle was broken (since Lash is still there she'd have had a link, albeit a weak one) or after she was recovered by Nicodemus (if she was).
But we do not know if Nick recovered Lasciel's coin, so it is all guess work.
JB is referring to the proverb, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." The clear implication is that Lasciel has discovered that her shadow has failed in its mission--to get Harry to claim Lasciel's coin--and is furious at Harry's rejection of her. IF she is aware that her shadow not only failed, but also switched teams and is not "dead," then Mira is right in that Lasciel would be furious at Lash as well as Harry. (There's a chance that Lasciel was told that her shadow had been somehow destroyed, and has not yet found out otherwise. Certainly, once she discovers the truth about Lash, Lash will be right at the top of Lasciel's hit list.)
Exactly, added to that, one of the shadow's fears until she became Lash was death. She openly admitted, Harry dies she dies as well, part of trying to get Harry to take up the coin in White Night was for her own survival. And yes, Lasciel would maybe want to wipe out Lash even more than Harry. Because Lash was part of her, and she betrayed her by taking up Harry's interest over hers. Also, Lasciel might know if Lash wasn't completely dead, even if Bob thought she was. We do have that quiet whisper in White Night that says that Lash might have survived.
I don't see why Lasciel would want to destroy Harry in the first place. She's the Web Weaver, the Deceiver, she's been around since the dawn of time. She isn't human, in any sense of the word. All that Harry has done so far is proven himself to be more powerful than any other host that she has ever dealt with. Keep in mind the sense of scope we're talking about here: Since the dawn of time, Harry is the only one to have not taken up the coin already.
But she is totally pissed, her own shadow betrayed her, her own shadow was changed by Harry, by her love for him. Lasciel doesn't want any part of Harry any longer unless it would be to twist the knife in his gut and cause him more pain.. However she cannot do that unless he agrees to take up the coin. If that was her aim, the time to seduce him with that was when he was flat on his back with no hope of saving little Maggie. However she didn't go for that, she went for, "and it is all your fault.." Best revenge Harry crippled with the knowledge he daughter died and he was helpless to save her.. Or she understood the spell that the Red King was going for, and figured Harry would die anyway, with the agony that he couldn't save his little girl on his mind. She underestimated Harry, he did figure a way, I do not think she figured on Uriel taking counter measures when she whispered those words.