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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Rubycon on August 26, 2011, 06:16:18 AM
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Hi,
I'm thinking a lot about how to deal with the weapon laws in Germany (only for my DF-campaign, that is... ;)). In the books as well as in YS, wepaons are an integral part to defend (or to attack) your enemies. In the US, this seems plausible, because you have the right to own weapons and it is relatively easy to carry a weapon. In Germany, even owning weapons is strictly prohibited and carrying a weapon in the public is illigal for everyone (besides the police). So I fear that using weapons will bring the characters some trouble. On the other side, it's a part of the game - most people have no other choice to fight the monsters, haven't they?
So, any suggestions how to handle this or some experience from european players?
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Sounds like a great compel to me. . .
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First we have this from wikipedia on Gun Politics in Germany
Firearms carry permit
Firearms carry permits (Waffenschein) entitle licensees to publicly carry legally owned weapons, loaded in a concealed or non-concealed manner. A mandatory legal and safety class and shooting proficiency tests are required to obtain such a permit. Carry permits are usually only issued to persons with a particular need for carrying a firearm. This includes some private security personnel and persons living under a raised threat-level like celebrities and politicians. They are valid up to three years and can be extended. Carrying at public events is prohibited. Licensed hunters do not need a permit to carry weapons while hunting.
[edit]Small firearms carry permit
A small firearms carry permit (Kleiner Waffenschein) was introduced in 2002. It can be obtained without having to demonstrate expert knowledge, necessity or a mandatory insurance. The only requirements are that the applicant be of legal age, trustworthy and personally adequate. It entitles the licensee to publicly carry gas pistols (both of the blank and irritant kind) and flare guns. These types of firearms are freely available to adults; only the actual carrying on public property requires the permit. Similarly to the "real" or big permit, carrying at public events is proscribed.
And second gas weapons can be tinkered to their non gas analog if you realy need this.
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I'd just do whatever provides the most entertainment, to be honest. If all movies & action novels out there had heroes or villians who followed their country's laws to the letter, there'd be a lot of boring movies out there.
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Options:
-Player characters who are police or have friends among the police
-Skills like burglary, stealth, and deceit for hiding your weapons or convincing people you're licensed to carry them
-Power like channeling, evocation, claws, and strength that allow a solid damage output without needing a weapon
-Compels to get in trouble with the law, 'cause getting extra fate points is often welcome
I had a game where one player was a pure mortal gunslinger named Rain (think Kincaid, but nicer, happier, and with hippie parents). He took an aspect "as legal as I can" or something like that, and would invoke it to declare that he had permits and licenses for whatever huge weapons he was using that day, or for bonuses on social rolls to get the cops to leave him alone.
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@aardvark: That's ggod news, thank you...! :)
@Arcteryx: In most cases, I woul agree with you. However, as in most cases even the possesion of weapons in Germany is illegal, this can bring up many problems. And for some of these problems a simple refuse of a compel doesn't work IMO.
But I think if one of the characters has a license because of his background, most other stuff is up to roleplaying and smart using of the weapons...
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I´m from Germany and there are enough people who possess weapons. I´m surely no expert, but I think small halfautomatic weapons are ok for private persons if you have a license and there some shootingclubs. At home you must store your weapons and your ammunition in two different and closed cupboards.
But you´re right that the german police would get crazy if you run around with a gun in public. I think there is a cultural dependency on this whole topic. Don´t want to offend anyone, but as I know weapons are more common in the USA, because in former times the settlers had to defend themselves. It´s some kind of proud tradition. Please correct me if I´m talking bullshit.
In Germany there was (at least the last 200 years or so) always some kind of strong ruling power and the normal guy didn`t really need a weapon. I´m telling this because perhaps you could make this some kind of theme for your campaign. Something like: "Look officer, he has a gun!". Then you could always compel this in certain situations. Even when the character has a license, it will cost him time to discuss with the police etc.... And if the character pays a fate point to circumvent the compel, the random guy in public didn`t saw it.
@Rubycon: Are you also german or is there a special reason, why you wan`t to play a story there?
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No, I'm from Germany and I'm planning my camapign in Aachen. More of it shortly, I need some help anyway... ::)
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You could use slingshots or crossbows. Those are legal in Germany...
Or you could just have your PCs be breaking the law. That might add story ideas too.
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The police will only catch you if they see the gun. So don't make it visible when in public. The bad guys won't want to either, and they won't want to be using their powers in an obvious public way.
Now, if the issue is getting one in the first place that I'm less sure on, but since I know there are countries in Europe with much more lax gun laws it can't be that difficult to smuggle them in, right? That's basically how illegal guns get here in Canada, they get smuggled accross the hard to defend border.
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I've been playing in a Bonn based game for a while, and we mostly ignored the issue up to the point where it was interesting for the story to have the police confiscate weapons and such.
One point to keep in mind is that Weapon laws here in Germany not only apply to the PC's, but the NPC's as well.
(Knowledge of American Gun law is mostly based on tv, so please correct me if i'm wrong)
In America it's fairly easy to get a Gun. Unless you have a criminal record it is your right to have one. Correct me if i'm wrong, but Rifles don't even require waiting time as far as i know. Heck, you can buy a Gun at Walmart.
Here in Germany any and all Gun purchases (except for very weak ones) require you to get a special permit.
The idea that someone has his own "army" of armed mercenaries is basically inconceivable here. There are no paramilitary groups around here. At least none that i know of.
What I'm trying to say. Yes, the PC are limited by German Gun Law. But so are most NPC if they want to avoid drawing attention to themselves.
If they send a group of Mercenaries to assault someone, even if it's in a rural area, the police will maybe not catch them in the act, but it would be something so outlandish that it will draw national news coverage and major investigations.
(I guess that's probably the same in the US. Again, my knowledge is mostly TV based, and that's not quite reality...*g*)
Or think of something like Marcone's "place to conduct noisy business". I don't know how Americans view that in terms of realism. But for me it's totally absurd. The same goes for something like the Raith Deeps.
Ok, I'm starting to get very off topic here, but let me add one last thing.
Generally it's way more probable for something to happen unnoticed in the USA than in Germany.
The USA have about 300 million people, Germany has about 80 million. But Germany is waaay waaaay smaller.
Population density in the US is an average of 32 people per square kilometer, in Germany it's at 229.
Anyways. All that is not really important. If you want your Private Investigator PC working in Aachen or any other German City to be armed, go for it.
The Dresdenverse is not our world. There are different rules there.
If you want to really crack down on Guns and such, give your Campaign an Aspect like "Really Strict Gun Laws" and compel the hell out of your PC's. It'll be a ready source of Fate though, if you plan to present them with a lot of combat. Be ready for a lot of things like this:
GM: that biker is walking towards you, he want's a fight.
PC: Oh if i only had a Gun... Fate point please
Ok, i gotta stop now before i totally go off the rails with this post.
So long.
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American gun laws are a mess. They vary by state and some times by city/municipality. I live in the city of New York and it is somewhat difficult to get a permit to own a gun here and almost impossible to obtain a concealed carry permit. Meanwhile, in Louisiana you can buy rifles and shotguns with no license, waiting, or background check. It's actually easier than buying liquor.
If you're concerned about realism yet some of your PCs need guns you might want to lean on some of the other elements of the setting. For instance, we know relatively little about the Venatori, so if you attach a gun-wielding PC to them you/he could sculpt the organization to his character's needs and infer from their reputation for government influence that they can swing getting him the proper authorizations.
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@Arcteryx: In most cases, I woul agree with you. However, as in most cases even the possesion of weapons in Germany is illegal, this can bring up many problems. And for some of these problems a simple refuse of a compel doesn't work IMO.
But I think if one of the characters has a license because of his background, most other stuff is up to roleplaying and smart using of the weapons...
I totally get that. And if that's an entertaining state to impose on the game and the players, cool. But I'm betting any action movie with awesomesaucetm that takes place in Germany - and was made there - probably conveniently misplaced this section of the criminal code.
Hey, I'm not saying gratituous violence and a high body count is the only way to inject some fun & games into a game, but sometimes when you have to send in the ninjas (see reference in Spirit Of The Century), their ninja-foo might come off a bit weak without some arguments of the sharp-pointy-and-leadcoated persuasion.
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(Knowledge of American Gun law is mostly based on tv, so please correct me if i'm wrong)
In America it's fairly easy to get a Gun. Unless you have a criminal record it is your right to have one.
As DFJunkie said, it's a mess, especially with regards to concealed carry...
Illinois (and especially Chicago, Dresden's hometown) has some of the strictest firearms regulations in the U.S. It's a "no-issue" jurisdiction, meaning hand gun permits are not issued to civilians, nor are they recognized. In Illinois, you cannot even "open carry". This last spring, there was a vote on a state law to lift Illinois' concealed carry ban, which failed. The NRA is now suing the state government over the constitutionality of the current law, saying that it violates the 2nd and 14th Amendments of the U.S. Constitution... Whether they are right or wrong about that is left for the United States District Court to decide.
Oddly enough, it is generally considered easier to get a hold of a (illegal black market) firearm if you are a criminal, than if you aren't in Chicago... The firearms laws in Germany are far less restrictive than they are here in Illinois.
There's actually some good articles about gun laws on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws).
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But, let's give the government some leeway...
I'm going to avoid the politics and just point out there are some significant, if subtle, differences in culture between the US and Europe. One difference which drives some of the views you mention is a fairly endemic mistrust of "government". Prior to 2008 the US didn't really have state sponsored corporate actors - instead of a Deutsche Bank or a Siemens dominating an industry for over a century we've had a fairly mutable corporate landscape where corporations merge, split, and even fail. A significant driver behind that is the "laissez faire" approach to government control of the economy. That approach is driven in part by the cultural mistrust of government.
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Look at the novels. Dresden has to hide his revolver from the police a number of times, in a way that would be a compel. Murphy has a gun as a cop, but anything higher power she has to get illegally, and it takes quite a few books before she's willing to do that. Beyond them very few of the good guys ever use guns. The bad guys do, but those are usually organized crime or organized supernatural crime with mind control powers, so concealed carry permits are not an issue.
Canada looks like it has pretty similar gun laws to Germany. I live in a bad neighbourhood, like probably the worst neighbourhood in the city. One night my wife and I heard what sounded just like gun shots. We called the police. About an hour later the police showed up. That gives plenty of time for the heroes and the monsters to leave after a firefight. They were also highly skeptical that there were guns fired, and insisted that we just heard a car backfire or heard something on TV.
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But, let's give the government some leeway, they're only just beginning to allow views that contradict the Bible in schools... The Constitution is way newer, so we'll give them some time to catch up to the fact that some things are written in the spirit of that time :p
On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
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Quite right, quite right, but the "trouble" is that Washington won't simply acknowledge that the reasons why everyone had a right to own a gun was a product of the times they lived in back then. Saying that you have a right to own a gun and thus need to own a gun because you can and nothing should stop you from that is just insane. I believe that is about what NRA wants, right?
Let's avoid the politics and stick to facts.
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Let's avoid the politics and stick to facts.
Argh, it's the gas they spray from airplanes that made me do it! Sorry, I'll behave now :D
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Gas? All this time I thought it was the Thought Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police)! :)
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If there ever was an organization that does little else but make me laugh or groan at its stupidity, it is the NRA. Mind you, I'm Dutch and so the entire debate about weapons seems silly to me. But, let's give the government some leeway, they're only just beginning to allow views that contradict the Bible in schools... The Constitution is way newer, so we'll give them some time to catch up to the fact that some things are written in the spirit of that time :p
We're supposed to stay away from touchy topics on these boards. Just fyi.
But also fyi, you're not an American so perhaps you aren't aware of this. The whole point of the second amendment is to guarantee that civilians have access to military-style weapons; allowing them the power to challenge the government by force.
I don't comment about Dutch politics or make value calls with very little information. I suggest you follow suit with other countries as well.
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The whole point of the second amendment is to guarantee that civilians have access to military-style weapons; allowing them the power to challenge the government by force.
Stop. Who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see.
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Actually, you've got it a little bit backwards, there... In this instance, it's the government that's seemingly contradicting the Constitution, and it's the NRA that wants a more literal interpretation.
You can't talk about being literal and constitutional law in the same sentence. It's seriously not allowed. I mean, the text of the 2nd Amendment is:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Where is the well regulated militia part? Nowhere to be found. The Supreme Court has ruled that the militia bit is just sort of there and has no effect on the intention of the law, which is now legally considered to be the right to own firearms.
Never mind of course that the law doesn't even explicitly mention firearms. So now, even thought something like a big knife is a piece of armament, you can't carry one on you in some places.
The weapon laws in the States are just nuts. They spring from a law that obviously intends that there be some form of regulated militia system, but which doesn't detail it in the least. Then half of that law is ignored. Then you get to the state level, and more stuff happens to regulations. Then you get to the municipal level and more stuff happens. It's schizophrenic.
(And lest you read any opinion one way or the other in regards to gun rights into what I said beyond, "They're in disorder and stated unclearly," I have stated no such opinion.)
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Is it just me, or is most of this board from either Texas or Germany?
It certainly feels that way.
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Hey, folks?
More with the "here's how you can make this relevant in your game" talk, less with the political hip-shooting (pun intended), please.
Thanks.
-Lenny
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I'd say it depends on how experienced the players and GM are. In my group, this is the first game any of us have ever played. So I (as GM) make up laws as we go along, and the law is applicable from the time it is made up. Having your character have to avoid police and such might be great for compels, but it adds a layer of complexity that is not always needed - especially if the players are new.
However, making the game real makes it more submersive, and so long-term players might like it more.
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Hey, folks?
More with the "here's how you can make this relevant in your game" talk, less with the political hip-shooting (pun intended), please.
Thanks.
Sorry... ::)
First, note that YS 322-323 already have some loose guidelines for adjudicating the purchase of restricted or illegal items... Restricted and illegal items will be harder to find and more costly and time-consuming to acquire.
That said, once you know, even in a vague way, one way to handle these sorts of items and weapons is to use the item itself as target for temporary aspects. For example, a police officer with a good enough Awareness might spot that handgun in its shoulder holster underneath your jacket. Treating it like a maneuver, he might slap you with a temporary aspect like, "Do You Have a Permit For That Sir?"
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Is it just me, or is most of this board from either Texas or Germany?
It certainly feels that way.
<--- Texan with German blood and a NRA LIFE MEMBER
Where's the Downside ;D?
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Just wondering how hard is it too get guns in the US, for a story point of view in the UK I require contacts 2 resources 2 to get illegal fire arms (pistols) in terms of skill how hard would it be to gets guns in the US? Out of curiosity do they really sell guns in supermarkets in the US?
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Just wondering how hard is it too get guns in the US, for a story point of view in the UK I require contacts 2 resources 2 to get illegal fire arms (pistols) in terms of skill how hard would it be to gets guns in the US? Out of curiosity do they really sell guns in supermarkets in the US?
Gun in supermarkets, lol, kinda.
I mean the Wal Mart near me sells HUNTING Rifles and Shotguns, but they also have a Hair Dresser, McDonald's, Mechanic, Electronics, Clothing, Tools, and Groceries. It's like a Small Town or Mall.
You still have to go through a Federal Background check that they can do over the phone right there. So if you arent here legally, have a shady background (mental issues, criminal convictions, restraining orders ect) you aint getting one.
There is an age restriction of being 21 for some kinds of Weapons unless you are in the Military.
Honestly it's not "HARD" but why should it be? It's one of our RIGHTS, Right after Freedom of Speech and Religion, and before the Right to a trail.
Then it changes depending on what State you are in ect.
But here in Texas the requirements are Don't be a Scum Bag, be 21.
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Just wondering how hard is it too get guns in the US, for a story point of view in the UK I require contacts 2 resources 2 to get illegal fire arms (pistols) in terms of skill how hard would it be to gets guns in the US? Out of curiosity do they really sell guns in supermarkets in the US?
It depends entirely on where you are. In some places it's harder to get a beer than a shotgun. In others you have to go through a number of hoops to be sure that you're licensed and not a criminal, then you've got to wait a certain period, etc.
It also depends on exactly what sort of gun you're looking to get in the specific spot. Pistols are generally harder to get than shotguns, because pistols are much easier to hide and thus easier to use for crimes.
Check out the NRA web site. It's got a pretty extensive guide to gun laws by region. Pay particular attention to "shall issue" versus "may issue," as that makes quite a difference in how the different states handle gun acquisition.
As for getting guns illegally, I don't know about that. I imagine that you could follow the advice for city creation and Google [city name] + "illegal firearms" or the like.
My guess is that the price is going to vary a lot by what type of gun you're talking about. A new, high quality pistol purchased legally can set you back in the ballpark of a grand. An older revolver (but not old enough to gain value as an antique) is much less expensive. I would tend to imagine that the price you'd pay when purchasing such a thing illegally would tend to scale with the legal price roughly, unless the seller was desperate to offload them quickly.
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Politics, including opinions about the value and merit of any gun laws, be they strict or lax, is a No Go. Verbotten Lieb and all that. A plain statement explaining Chicago, Holland, or Texas gun laws is fine for purposes of providing background information for storytellers, but it must NOT contain personal editorial regarding any perceived merit or flaw in that law.
"The city of Snarkopolis gun laws are such that XYZ" is fine. You don't walk into a pawn shop or sporting goods store and legally buy a handgun in Chicago. Into any shop, for that matter. So Storytellers benefit from knowing that sort of detail. But whether that's Constitutional, wise, foolish, whatever, is No Go Territory. On the map, it's marked "Here there be Moderators.
The same goes for critique of organizations pushing this or that sociopolitical agenda on either side of any sociopolitical issue. I'm going to ask everyone who's gone into editorial opinion on gun laws, be you Right or be you Left, Conservative, Progressive, Masticationalist, whatever... to head back to your post and kindly edit that material out. Same goes with intent on the 2nd Amendment. I've got lots of opinions on that, based on the body of law the framers were using and their own writings on the matters of states, sovereignty, and tasty morning beverages.
:-X
That's me, keeping those opinions for discussion elsewhere. We can't go there people, it's Politics and it leads to pissing matchs of the sort that Jim and Iago don't want in their house.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Would you like to know more? Click here for the link to the rules...
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23096.0.html
Specifically,
Forbidden Discussion Items:
Include, but are not limited to:
Theft of intellectual property
Stalking
Politics
Religion outside of Book Canon
Personal Attacks
Sex, Sexism
Other Touchy Topics
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It's my humble opinion that we should probably start this thread over again for discussing this topic.
The cat's kind of out of the bag for this one. I don't have a good feeling about it. Even if we all edit our posts, -somebody- is going to jump in a month from now, read something that rubs them the wrong way, post something TT-y and possibly cause problems.
I suggest the OP or another poster start the thread over again with "revisited" or something in the title and leave this one die.
:P
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Just wondering how hard is it too get guns in the US, for a story point of view in the UK I require contacts 2 resources 2 to get illegal fire arms (pistols) in terms of skill how hard would it be to gets guns in the US? Out of curiosity do they really sell guns in supermarkets in the US?
In nearly every state you can go down to Wal-Mart and pick up a rifle or shotgun and ammo, pay the price, and walk out. You may have to show ID to prove you're old enough. "Old Enough" varies by state but is always <= 21. Handguns have a waiting period and background check (no felons, no crazy people). I'm not sure how long, I haven't bought one since the waiting period came into effect. Three to fifteen days I think. Concealed/open carry and transportation is another story entirely and varies extremely widely by state; no two are exactly the same.
Yes, they sell guns in supermarkets if you consider super wal-marts and such to be supermarkets since they have roughly 1/3 of the store dedicated as a supermarket and the other 2/3 selling the same things the non-super versions sell.
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I've gone and removed my own posts on this subject matter and, seeing as I am somewhat the instigator of this whole mess, I apologize for spouting my views here, in this inappropriate place.
To make up for it, I can tell you what I know about Dutch laws :)
If you join a gun club, you can legally purchase weapons after being a member for 1 year, this includes rifles. Of course, there is a background check and such.
A friend of mine works for the Koninklijke Marechausee, sort of the Military Police, and while he is allowed to bring his sidearm home with him, he is never equiped with more than 9 (nine!) bullets at any time, unless the brass sees reason for it.
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I've gone and removed my own posts on this subject matter and, seeing as I am somewhat the instigator of this whole mess, I apologize for spouting my views here, in this inappropriate place.
To make up for it, I can tell you what I know about Dutch laws :)
If you join a gun club, you can legally purchase weapons after being a member for 1 year, this includes rifles. Of course, there is a background check and such.
A friend of mine works for the Koninklijke Marechausee, sort of the Military Police, and while he is allowed to bring his sidearm home with him, he is never equiped with more than 9 (nine!) bullets at any time, unless the brass sees reason for it.
This is all very interesting. Thank you for educating me. I like it when I can learn a few things every day. :)
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A big, very big part of the Dresden Files is "The Mortals can't know". That means that if you're walking around loaded for bear the mortal authorities will want to know why - and you can't tell them.
Or if you do tell them (like Butters did) you could end up in a rubber room (like Butters did).
Keeping everything (including weapons) on the QT is one of the challenges that makes this game so fun to play.
Richard
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I know in rural New York state at least (note this isn't New York City, I only point it out because I know way too many people that aren't from around here that get seriously confused that the state is much bigger then the city) it's legal to get a longarm or a shotgun at 18 if you also have passed a firearm safety class which is usually accompanied by getting a hunting license. And assuming you own the gun legally you can carry them around in your car as long as they're unloaded and the ammo's somewhere else (usually the trunk) and since it's usually assumed you're out hunting....something most cops won't say anything about the guns unless there was recently a shooting or they're asking if you got anything while you were out. Walmarts and some sporting goods stores around here will sell basically any kind of rifle or shotgun and the ammo needed to shoot them though I can't say if there's a waiting period since I got all my guns second hand as gifts and such. Fully automatic weapons aren't sold however and are generally illegal.
Pistols are harder to get and more illegal to own requiring permits and background checks and waiting periods since they're viewed more as weapons for killing people then for use as hunting implements. The ammo's easier to come by though.
Bows and crossbows are legal to own and shoot though you'll likely get odd looks carrying them and some people won't recognize a traditional bow for what it is as they've only seen the more advanced compound bows with the pulleys and laser range finders and such.
As far as I know most of the rural US has similar outlooks on guns if not the actual laws. Mind a lot of that is more anecdotal evidence then actual readings of the laws involved. I also know that when you get closer to bigger towns and cities the local police tend to get more attentive as to what's legal for you to be toting around then out in the country.
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I also know that when you get closer to bigger towns and cities the local police tend to get more attentive as to what's legal for you to be toting around then out in the country.
There's also "what's legal" vs "what will get you hassled by a cop" to consider. Arizona has unlicensed open/concealed carry, for instance, but that's not to say you won't catch the occasional bit of heat for having a six-shooter on your hip like in the old west. If you just want a good resource to check state laws, try OpenCarry.org (http://opencarry.org). The site is pretty politically motivated but the maps can tell you at a glance which state has what sort of laws.
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In general, the cops in urban areas are most hostile to civilians packing heat on the street. Cops in the suburbs or especially rural America are a good deal less so. The reasons are political and cultural, and not really relevant to these boards.
This is even more true in Chicago than most other large cities in the U.S. I'd say Chicago and Washington, D.C. are the two cities where (official) private gun ownership is least common and the local police are most opposed to firearms in civilian hands.
Also, in the U.S., gun laws are generally organized on a state-by-state basis. So if your campaign takes place entirely within the state of, say, Missouri, then the same gun laws will apply no matter where you go. Even within a state, though, enforcement and/or attention from the police will vary somewhat by jurisdiction. Some states require gun licenses; others don't. The states that require licenses may automatically grant them once you've filled out the necessary paperwork and passed a background check (generally speaking, convicted felons are not permitted to own guns); or they may grant or withhold licenses on the judgment of the local county Sheriff. (The former are called "shall issue" states; the latter are "may issue" states, describing whether or not the local Sheriff has the power to deny a license at his discretion.)
Another factor to consider is time. If your game is set in the present year, then all you have to do is look up the current laws. But if your game is set several years or even decades ago, both laws and attitudes could be substantially different. For instance, Britain has essentially banned private gun ownership, and this has been true for a few decades. However, if you were setting your game in Britain during the early twentieth century, around the time of WWI, let's say, guns would be everywhere in British society.
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Call of Cthulhu has some great books detailing Britain in three time periods - 1880 (Cthulhu by Gaslight), 1920-30s (Cthulhu), and various editions of Cthulhu now. In them they point to the paradox of British gun laws in the past:
1) You didn't need a license for many sorts of guns.
2) This didn't mean that you could walk around with guns.
Putting it another way, not needing a license to carry a gun means that you aren't licensed to carry it, leaving decisions up to the local law. Any police officer who sees a character with a weapon could decided that he was "carrying a weapon dangerous to the public peace" and arrest him - and later decide if he was going to charge the character.
Carrying rifles in the country side was usually okay, unless you were on someone else's estate - then it was clear that you were there for poaching. Carry a weapon on a city street and you better have a reason to have it or the police can and will act. Of course, since things were more class conscious back then, the better you were dressed the better your chances of carrying it. "His Lordship" might be taking a gun to show someone, but those disreputable looking people were probably up to no good.
In Canada, you can still be charged with carrying a weapon dangerous to the public peace. Private citizens have a very hard time getting permission to transport a gun if they aren't going to a shooting club or hunting, but the law says "weapon" not gun. Carrying a crowbar when you don't have a reason to, or a baseball bat when you aren't heading to a ball game, or anything along those lines could get you picked up - or not. It all depends on if a cop feels that you having that item right there and then is dangerous to the public peace.
This has led to some interesting court cases. Locally, there's a case from a couple of years ago that sticks in my mind. A guy who went to a bar with a pair of spiked hooks - they were tools that you hook into logs to move them. He got picked up and charge for carrying weapons and on his court date he represented himself and explained to the judge that they were tools, not weapons, and then reached into his coat and brought out a pair of them to show the judge. Him flashing them, well, it caught the attention of everyone in the courtroom. Luckily he agreed to give them to a bailiff and then judge explained that things have context.
In the woods those items were tools. Working around logs in general they were tools. In a bar or a courtroom they were weapons. No, the item didn't change, but the probable use for them changed even if he hadn't intended to use them as weapons. All of which meant that he was guilty as charged.
Carrying a walking stick is okay in my city. Carry a walking staff and the police might want to talk to you about the staff. Odds are they'll just talk and if you carry enough they'll come to know you one of the harmless guys who carry staffs. Walk around carrying a 2x4 and they will definitely talk to you and if they don't hear a good story they will take you into custody "to sort things out". Get caught carrying a knife of a certain size and you be charged. Carry a different size one and if the police see it as 'dangerous to the public peace' you will be charged.
Here's a web page that does a good job of explaining the non-gun weapons laws in Canada. http://ejmas.com/tin/2004tin/tinart_agnew_0104.html (http://ejmas.com/tin/2004tin/tinart_agnew_0104.html)
Richard
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Internally, the gun laws can vary within any given state. (Talking about the US here.)
Pennsylvania has a set of state level requirements regarding ownership and carry. It's a "Shall Issue" state where if you apply for a permit to carry, the state must have a reason to deny you such as a record felony, domestic abuse, involuntary mental institutionalization or something that the Sheriff could take to court to say he had solid cause to think a person was a danger, such as a guy screaming into his cell phone that "I'm getting my permit right now, then I'm gonna get a gun and come shoot your cheatin' ass." There's a mandatory background check for firearm purchases, but no waiting period other than how long it takes for the instant check. The fee is about $15, just enough to defray the costs of the paperwork.
Pennsylvania's state constitution has a supremacy clause which prohibits local jurisdictions from enacting restrictions on gun ownership and carry which would superscede or contradict the established State laws. That means Philadelphia or Pittsburgh can't enact a waiting period or ban on ownership, purchasing or carry, nor could they go the other way and declare that no permit was required for concealed carry. So a permit to carry is good anywhere in PA outside a business where the owner says "no guns in my place" or various government buildings, schools, and the like. As a result, you know where you stand as far as the law goes when you're in the anywhere in PA.
California, on the other hand, allows municipalities to enact their own laws, so long as they are not less strict than the state standards. So you could be in one county where it's legal to carry with a permit, and drive through a town where you're breaking the law the moment you pass through the corner of it's jurisdiction. To carry or even transport firearms safely and legally in that state, you must literally research the laws of every county, city, town or borough which you expect to travel through. So if your characters are traveling in one of these states, your GM has a golden opportunity to hand you a real Bag of Dicks if he's that sort of nasty minded GM that's always the most fun to game with.
Many states have reciprocity agreements with other states that hold the same standards for a permit to carry. 15 or so states will honor my Pennsylvania permit, no questions asked. But driving thought the states between those states could be a problem. In some states, you might be fine simply unloading and securing the weapon in a locked box in your trunk with the ammo stored separately... but in others like Maryland, even that would be No Go. Monster hunting roadtrip a la Supernatural? See above, Bag of Dicks if your GM is so inclined.
GM's can also use (and gleefully abuse) the fact that the Law isn't always what happens when the police are involved. One cop might ignore the sawed off (Federal felony) shotgun behind the bar in Old Lady Johnson's house so long as the owners keep their nose clean. And another cop might decide to be a Plot Complication even though the player characters might be toeing the line of the law in the instance.
As has been noted earlier in this thread, what's legal and what this or that police officer thinks is legal aren't always the same thing. I was jacked up for Walking While Goth during the post-Columbine 20-20 fueled fear mongering about "the Gothic movement, violent and black!" and the "dangerous Goth Gangs..." and I was given the third degree about why I was carrying. I replied politely that I have the required permit. The policeman claimed it wasn't valid in Pittsburgh, and I responded politely that the commonwealth's constitution forbade local bans. I didn't mouth off or give him attitude, but I made it plain I was aware of the law and my rights in the state. He wasn't happy about it and said so... but he didn't have much choice unless he wanted to try to fabricate a crime right there.
Now, on the flip side, almost every other cop I've talked to were fine, once they saw my permit. I've had a few particularly sharp officers spot that I was carrying (holster lines, don't you know) and inquire if I had a permit. I'm sure they were eyeballing my attitude and demeanor as much as the permit (is he sweating, stammering, otherwise worried about our interest?). And these encounters always ended amicably, usually with both parties scribbling down the address of a good range or shop with good prices. So, GM's, apply the Gamer version of the Skippy test and ask yourselves "do either of these scenarios bring to mind plot complications that make me giggle for more than 8 seconds? And will it make my Players cry for more than 8 minutes?"
So if a Storyteller wants to use gun laws as an opportunity for complications, or an opportunity for his characters... and villains... to gear up, it's easy to check a given state or country's gun laws. Wikipedia can give you general info most any country and state. For those setting games in the US, you can check out the NRA's website. Like the Open Carry site, it is a site belonging to a sociopolitical faction pushing it's own agenda (and we'll not discuss that agenda here)... but it does have a convenient map where you can check the specifics of any state's gun laws. So your Chicago based characters can run into a whole world of complications and gun culture shock if they head to Dallas Texas or Allentown, PA, and vice-versa.
And remember, a gun permit won't generally let you carry a concealed sword, axe or mace. That Warden's sword could land 'em in a heap of trouble even if the players have a "concealed weapons permit."
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Here (http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/ptfire.pdf) is pdf of the gun laws in Illinois. Of special note for Dresden Files RPG is Sec. 24-2 "Exemptions", and especially Sec. 24-2(a)(5)...
Persons licensed as private security contractors, private detectives, or private alarm contractors, or employed by an agency certified by the Department of Professional Regulation, if their duties include the carrying of a weapon under the provisions of the Private Detective, Private Alarm, and Private Security Act of 1983, while actually engaged in the performance of the duties of their employment or commuting between their homes and places of employment, provided that such commuting is accomplished within one hour from departure from home or place of employment, as the case may be. Persons exempted under this subdivision (a)(5) shall be required to have completed a course of study in firearms handling and training approved and supervised by the Department of Professional Regulation as prescribed by Section 28 of the Private Detective, Private Alarm, and Private Security Act of 1983, prior to becoming eligible for this exemption. The Department of Professional Regulation shall provide suitable documentation demonstrating the successful completion of the prescribed firearms training. Such documentation shall be carried at all times when such persons are in possession of a concealable weapon.
...which explains how Private Detectives can be exempted from the ban on carrying concealed handguns.
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Here (http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/ptfire.pdf) is pdf of the gun laws in Illinois. Of special note for Dresden Files RPG is Sec. 24-2 "Exemptions", and especially Sec. 24-2(a)(5)...
...which explains how Private Detectives can be exempted from the ban on carrying concealed handguns.
Mind you, I'm pretty sure Dresden had a plot complication type deally with regards to his handgun in one of the novels. Although he might have just not had his documentation, I'm not sure.
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to show you how it works in Texas
I picked up a Glock 22 on my way to picking up Tacos, took 15 minutes.
Showed my Texas CHL, filled out some paperwork, paid and left 15 minutes
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I've got an "old school" brainlock about Glocks. Reliable, sit real nice in my hand... but the "trigger only safety" bugs me. The rational mind knows that "safety is all in the head," but I still like a manual safety on the gun or a decocking lever. FN P9's my favored, decock and you can fire the first round double action, or manually cock the hammer back if time permits.
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I got a Hi Power or two laying around, but I carry cocked and locked, safety off. I just dont see the need for them.
I was raised with the finger is your safety school of thought
(http://us.cdn2.123rf.com/168nwm/meawpong3405/meawpong34051105/meawpong3405110500051/9575060-man-index-finger-pointer-as-white-isolate-background.jpg)
I practice drawing and flipping the safety off from the holster now and then, but it just seems like wasted time.
Those FN9s look purdy though (I LOVE Their 45ACP in the Earth Tone with the Red dot, that thing is sexy and the future of Pistols) , just looking for something to go with my glock 26 (gonna get a conversion barrel for the 22 so I can fire 9mm and 40)
Gonna get a Glock 27 one day so I can do the same, and give the 26 to my friend.
Back on topic. In Texas you can give or sell a firearm to someone if you know they are not a felon, drug addict, not here legally or going to use it for something illegal. So if I put an ad on craigslist and say Hey looking to sell XYZ for ABC amount, get an email from someone, meet them somewhere, and exchange gun and money, and thats it. All legal.
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I'm not familiar with gun laws in Germany, but if there is a heavy debate about them in Germany like there is here in the U.S I think that the GM could use that to make an epic social battle. Compel the PC to slip up and get arrested for carrying an illegal weapon, have the other PC's try to rally support for the guy, other groups get involved on both sides, and of course in the Dresden universe at least a few of those groups will be supernatural in nature and have some reason they are pushing one way or another. The PC's could run around prior to the case turning up evidence, festering out corruption, trying to gain support from different groups, getting into fights with thugs sent by one group or another, and all kinds of other stuff. Then in the court room the PC's would get called to the stand and do social battle with the opposing attorney, trying to put maneuvers on the jury to get them to vote one way or the other, maybe they get jumped in the bathroom and have to balance fighting effectively and fighting silently. I'm not sure how plausible this is and the GM would have to think of something for the PC who got arrested to do (have him make bail would be the easiest), but if the players are willing to suspend some disbeleif and roll with it I think it could result in an exiting and unique climax to a campaign.
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Be a lot of work though. To do it right, the GM will have to research not just the existing laws in Germany, but their court system as well as their governmental system, specifically what mechanisms exist to challange and change a pre-existing law, and what sociopolitical factions are involved. Issues like that particular population's traditional cultural attitudes towards not just the individual issue, but also towards things like authority/vs individual rights will also come into play.
If the GM and his/her players are really, really into politics it could be interesting, but I know that in the US at least, overturning or implementing a drastic change in laws regarding fundamental rights generally requires a nationwide campaign that lasts for years or decades.
(Personaly, I like debating and just plain arguing politics with a pint in my hand, but for gaming, I want to be killing mosters and putting the smackdown on some Supernatural Big Bad.)
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But...it would be cool if the Us supreme court were actually a group of badass monster hunters. I named a Shotgun Justice Scalia once.
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Only if they ride motorcycles, with the song Desperado as their theme.
My Bushmaster M4 varient is named "Snuggledoodles."
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Um, do you mean the Alice Cooper song or the Eagles' song - or do you mean another song all together?
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/desperado-lyrics-alice-cooper/aa79166552f7a49e48256c480008298f (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/desperado-lyrics-alice-cooper/aa79166552f7a49e48256c480008298f)
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eagles/desperado.html (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eagles/desperado.html)
Personally I prefer Alice Cooper's one.
Richard
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Actually I think I made some song soup in my head.
The song I want is "Dead or alive" by Bon Jovi, because they all have to wear flappy coats and ride motorcycles. And retired Justice John Paul Stevens gets to be a hologram that follows them around giving them advice on how to get to the next episode.