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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Rubycon on August 24, 2011, 12:21:37 PM

Title: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Rubycon on August 24, 2011, 12:21:37 PM
Hi,
simple question: Was HP Lovecraft trying to do the same to outsiders as Bram Stroker to Black Court Vampires by writing stories about them...?
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: DFJunkie on August 24, 2011, 12:42:00 PM
Well, there is WoJ that Lovecraft was On To Something, and it got him killed.  Also, that the Gatekeeper is the one who took out Abdul Alhazred, so at least part of the whole Cthulu mythos applies to the Dresdenverse.  I think Harry also mentions the Necronomicon as a book of rituals the WC broadly disseminated in nerf its power, but I can't remember which book (I think it was either BR or DB.)
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Masurao on August 24, 2011, 12:48:08 PM
Hi,
simple question: Was HP Lovecraft trying to do the same to outsiders as Bram Stroker to Black Court Vampires by writing stories about them...?

Don't mistake Bram Stoker for the instigator, he got that book published and popularized because the White Council wanted it to. I think that Lovecraft was either an unwitting Outsider puppet, spreading knowledge to the populace, or he accidentally stumbled upon said knowledge and thought it might make a good story :)
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Drulinda on August 24, 2011, 02:30:06 PM
Don't mistake Bram Stoker for the instigator, he got that book published and popularized because the White Council wanted it to. I think that Lovecraft was either an unwitting Outsider puppet, spreading knowledge to the populace, or he accidentally stumbled upon said knowledge and thought it might make a good story :)
One of jims last posts confirms it was actually the White Court that had Dracula published, though the poor blampires weren't aware of this until well after the fact.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: TheMouse on August 24, 2011, 03:05:55 PM
Well, Outsiders as a group don't seem to have a weakness the way that the Black Court does. This makes it really difficult to out them to the world in order to take them down.

Then of course there's the fact that the things in Lovecraft's stories are rarely defeated. A witch here or a wizard there might be killed, but the horrible things from beyond the Earth are rarely even inconvenienced. Most of them barely seem to notice that humans are present at all.

Combine these two facts, and it seems exceedingly unlikely that Lovecraft was trying to out the Outsiders. If he was, he did a genuinely awful job of it. As a method of instruction, his stories were mostly how to die when something terrible decides to kill you. Thanks, Howard. I think I could have managed that myself.

I think that the path of least resistance goes one of 3 ways:

1. He was an author who wrote fiction. If he managed to hit any truths related to the Outsiders, it's more or less happenstance.

2. Either on his own or at the behest of someone else, Mr. Lovecraft was trying to put information out there as part of a plan to help one or more Outsiders enter the world. Whether this was successful or not is up in the air.

3. He was trying to warn people: Mess with this stuff, and it will go very poorly for you.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Masurao on August 24, 2011, 03:12:10 PM
One of jims last posts confirms it was actually the White Court that had Dracula published, though the poor blampires weren't aware of this until well after the fact.

Oops, must've mixed one WC up with the other... :0o
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 24, 2011, 03:16:29 PM
You didn't.  In the original printing of the book in question it said White Council.  Since it was the same book that Jim accidentally changed the name of a character from book one, I can see him saying "I meant White Court" and meaning it.

Richard
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: DFJunkie on August 24, 2011, 03:18:10 PM
Quote
Well, Outsiders as a group don't seem to have a weakness the way that the Black Court does. This makes it really difficult to out them to the world in order to take them down.

Kinda yes, kinda no.  Most of the Mythos stories do end with catastrophe being averted by human action.  His stories could absolutely be a warning not to mess with this Stuff, but also a call to man up and stop other people from messing with Stuff.  Sure, you'll probably lose your sanity and/or be quietly assassinated by a vast and mysterious cult, but it beats the alternative. 
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Masurao on August 24, 2011, 03:31:37 PM
You didn't.  In the original printing of the book in question it said White Council.  Since it was the same book that Jim accidentally changed the name of a character from book one, I can see him saying "I meant White Court" and meaning it.

Richard

Now I'm just curious: which character? If I've spotted this, then I've forgotten about it altogether :)
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: TheMouse on August 24, 2011, 04:46:52 PM
Most of the Mythos stories do end with catastrophe being averted by human action. 
I'd say that it mostly only looks that way from a human time scale. You can't objectively say that you averted a catastrophe when the things that intends to carry it out has -- from their perspective -- more or less hit the snooze bar and opted for 9 more minutes of sleep.

The best that you can really fairly say about the stories is that the protagonists sometimes manage to foist off the problem on future generations.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: devonapple on August 24, 2011, 05:03:29 PM
While the White Council's modus operandi is to widely publish rituals to dilute their effectiveness, in "Backup" we find that
(click to show/hide)
, so if HPL *was* On To Something, then
(click to show/hide)
.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: DFJunkie on August 24, 2011, 07:45:53 PM
Quote
The best that you can really fairly say about the stories is that the protagonists sometimes manage to foist off the problem on future generations.
If you assume the Mythos is true that's the best possible outcome.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Rubycon on August 24, 2011, 07:48:43 PM
Hehe... ;D I like that thread!

So, assuming themouse is right and Lovecraft intended to warn others not to mess with outsiders, maybe he did that because at that time, the White Council thought of it as agood idea only to reverse it later...?
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 24, 2011, 10:00:16 PM
Now I'm just curious: which character? If I've spotted this, then I've forgotten about it altogether :)

In book one, Harry leaves before a very angry Red Court Vampire attacks him and she summons one of her assistants / working girls / lovers to her.  That woman is killed and the Red Court Vampire blames Harry for her death - "If you hadn't had made me angry I wouldn't have killed her so it's all your fault".  Which is why in book 3 the vampire sets Harry up - she's being used as a pawn but for her it's personal.

The name of the woman who died? It depends on the book.  Jim got it wrong in book three and his editor didn't catch it.  There are several posts from him pointing out this mistake and that because of that he pays more attention to continuality.

Richard
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: devonapple on August 24, 2011, 10:30:38 PM
I automatically filled in the right name at the time I came across it, IIRC, but I was reading them in rapid succession as I played catch-up: I can see that having been disconcerting back when the books were several years apart.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: TheMouse on August 24, 2011, 10:47:28 PM
If you assume the Mythos is true that's the best possible outcome.
Yes, and I'd hardly call that crisis averted or victory for the good guys. Everyone's still doomed. Just, you know, a little bit later than previously.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Masurao on August 24, 2011, 11:02:15 PM
In book one, Harry leaves before a very angry Red Court Vampire attacks him and she summons one of her assistants / working girls / lovers to her.  That woman is killed and the Red Court Vampire blames Harry for her death - "If you hadn't had made me angry I wouldn't have killed her so it's all your fault".  Which is why in book 3 the vampire sets Harry up - she's being used as a pawn but for her it's personal.

The name of the woman who died? It depends on the book.  Jim got it wrong in book three and his editor didn't catch it.  There are several posts from him pointing out this mistake and that because of that he pays more attention to continuality.

Richard

I know exactly who you're talking about, but I didn't catch the mistake :) Perhaps because I read the first book in Dutch and then, after finishing it, ordered 2-11 in English ;) Plus, I didn't read them all in order...
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 25, 2011, 06:15:15 AM
I read the series as it was written and I noticed the problem when I was reading book 3 - that the name seemed off - and pulled out the first book to double check.  After a bit of head scratching I assumed that the first name was the woman's "working name" and the second one was her real name.

Then I came across posts where Jim admitted the mistake.

Checking out the other boards I've found that the first three books... Well, they are canon but lesser canon. If something in a later book contradicts one of the first three then the later book is considered correct.  If you raise a point that depends on something in those first three books people will shrug a bit and point to admitted errors in those books, or to Words of Jim where he says that he would do X differently or how Y doesn't fit with the rest of the books.

Take that demon that Harry summoned - in the book it was clear that Harry was flirting with the seven law there (bring this post back on topic!), yet later there's a clear division between "native demons" and outsiders.  That the being who Harry summoned had more in common with the Fallen than He Who Walks Behind.  In that book Harry was all "technically I'm not letting into the world" where the real problem would be he had researched how to summon it in the first place.  And that's basically an editing mistake.

Richard
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Onkel Thorsen on August 25, 2011, 12:02:35 PM
Looking at an Outsider like He Who Walks Behind and comparing him to Lovecraft's Yog-Sothothery, they don't seem to compare very well.
Lovecraft's alien-gods are keen to invade our world, but they don't Hate the way the Walker does. And they generally don't give a Tinker's cuss about humans.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: DFJunkie on August 25, 2011, 01:18:21 PM
Looking at an Outsider like He Who Walks Behind and comparing him to Lovecraft's Yog-Sothothery, they don't seem to compare very well.
Lovecraft's alien-gods are keen to invade our world, but they don't Hate the way the Walker does. And they generally don't give a Tinker's cuss about humans.
Remember, everything we know about HHWB and his attitude towards reality is filtered through Harry's brain.  It's possible that Harry couldn't comprehend HHBW's feelings and understood them in more familiar terms. 

Also, IIRC the Outsiders (like HHBW) are servants of the Old Ones (Yog Sothoth and company), not old ones as described by Lovecraft.  If the Outsiders were created to destroy humanity they could be more similar to us than their masters are.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: The Mighty Buzzard on August 25, 2011, 01:26:09 PM
Looking at an Outsider like He Who Walks Behind and comparing him to Lovecraft's Yog-Sothothery, they don't seem to compare very well.
Lovecraft's alien-gods are keen to invade our world, but they don't Hate the way the Walker does. And they generally don't give a Tinker's cuss about humans.

Eh, HWWB is kind of pansy compared to Yog-Sothoth and company anyway.  Walkers are only the lieutennants of the Outer Gods/Old Ones.  You can tell by how nobody goes mad, blind, or just flat dies by just looking at HWWB.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Pbartender on August 25, 2011, 01:39:32 PM
Apropos of nothing...

Last spring, I found a paperback copy of the Necronomicon at a garage sale.  ???  I keep meaning to read it, but haven't found the time yet.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: polkaneverdies on August 25, 2011, 02:03:22 PM
Don't read it out loud when you get around to it. Especially  not "Klaatu barada nikto"
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: TheMouse on August 25, 2011, 02:53:27 PM
Lovecraft's alien-gods are keen to invade our world, but they don't Hate the way the Walker does. And they generally don't give a Tinker's cuss about humans.
Well, some are keen to invade, and others aren't. Their motivations get more and more incoherent the more powerful they get, to the point where Azathoth doesn't seem to have any motivations at all, certainly not ones we could understand.

But, yeah. Most of them don't even seem to notice that humans exist, never mind have any intentions toward us. They're only going to incidentally wipe us out without realizing that we even exist.

Apropos of nothing...

Last spring, I found a paperback copy of the Necronomicon at a garage sale.  ???  I keep meaning to read it, but haven't found the time yet.
Just remember to never read the name of the King In Yellow out loud. For realsies.
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Richard_Chilton on August 25, 2011, 04:32:33 PM
Looking at an Outsider like He Who Walks Behind and comparing him to Lovecraft's Yog-Sothothery, they don't seem to compare very well.
Lovecraft's alien-gods are keen to invade our world, but they don't Hate the way the Walker does. And they generally don't give a Tinker's cuss about humans.

Spoiler for a recent book or short story:
(click to show/hide)

Richard
Title: Re: Outsiders and Lovecraft
Post by: Drulinda on August 26, 2011, 02:26:42 AM
You didn't.  In the original printing of the book in question it said White Council.  Since it was the same book that Jim accidentally changed the name of a character from book one, I can see him saying "I meant White Court" and meaning it.

Richard
Are you referring to SF or GP becuse i dont remember it being mentioned who was behiend the publication of dracula untill BR... am i just forgetting something?