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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Rubycon on July 24, 2011, 06:50:06 PM

Title: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Rubycon on July 24, 2011, 06:50:06 PM
Hi,
a question came to my mind when I read through the laws of the white council: Is a mindreading a breaking og the third law, if the person whose mind ist read agrees to this?
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: UmbraLux on July 24, 2011, 06:55:01 PM
Quote from: Rubycon on July 24, 2011, 06:50:06 PM
a question came to my mind when I read through the laws of the white council: Is a mindreading a breaking og the third law, if the person whose mind ist read agrees to this?
By the letter of the law, yes.  It might not get you the lawbreaker stunt but wardens probably wouldn't care...
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on July 24, 2011, 08:19:22 PM
First, define "agrees".  Is it informed consent and if so how does the volunteer know what to expect?

When you enter another's mind you can leave pieces of yourself there while taking pieces of them out with you.  That mingling seems to be unavoidable and the basis for the lawbreaker effects of this law.

Also, what level of mind reading are we talking? Unless the person doing it is an expert (in a field that the White Council doesn't teach) there could be problems learning only certain things.

"Hi.  Would you mind opening your mind to me so I see something.  Oh, and while I'm there I might stumble upon your worse fear, your most embarrassing moment, your most repressed fantasy, and other things you don't want to dwell on, much less let someone else know." - I can't see many people saying yes to this, can you?


So if the person doesn't know (or understand) about the 'leaving parts' problem or the control issues, how they give informed consent?

Richard
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: noclue on July 24, 2011, 08:53:44 PM
Quote from: Richard_Chilton on July 24, 2011, 08:19:22 PM
Also, what level of mind reading are we talking? Unless the person doing it is an expert (in a field that the White Council doesn't teach) there could be problems learning only certain things.
not to mention psychic damage.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: tetrasodium on July 24, 2011, 10:11:41 PM
Id say  it's a poentially strong yes based on how hypnosis works.  I've done a bit of naughty* hypnosis in the past where one of the first things you want to  is a metaphorical safety net ("anchor"/"trigger") you can yank on to help the subject calm down and relax into a nice safe state where they are calm and relaxed in case you trigger an "abreaction"**. and need to ease them back into a relaxed state quickly.  The more you work with someone, the easier t is to push them into the right sort of hypnotic state needed to do stuff. one person I haven't worked with in years (still a friend) i can still just say /relax/ in he right tone of voice/pacing to visibly relax them when they are stressed out.  They started dating someone else and got them interested in hypnosis enough to try it, the first thing they did was quickly undo most of the safeguards I had to keep others from being able to trigger them into things like hysterical laughter/orgasm/freeze in place all on command.  There was a lot of one off stuff I was able to do with this person simply by suggesting it in the right tone of voice after a while as well.  It definitely changed our relationship dynamic at the time.  I can only imagine how different it could have been if the subject's free will could not have stepped in to override suggestions they were not ready for/willing to do (it can and will with hypnosis!)

*bedroom fun & games style naughty not Evil/criminal style
** imagine triggering memories of rape/child abuse /other traumatic event or phobia the subject was hiding from you aand sending them into a state of panic where they might be a danger to themselves or others
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Farbot on July 25, 2011, 04:45:55 AM
It seems from the strong negative reaction in the books to any sort of toying with the mind that all mind manipulation, no matter how well intentioned, is a no no. This would presumably be from the abovementioned complications of exchanging parts between reader and read-ee or other such complications.

Though if the only worry is repercussion from the white council... well then if you're very careful and the other participant is willing... then who's to say that it actually happened, right?
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Rubycon on July 25, 2011, 10:56:51 AM
I simply thought about some scenes where it could be very important to get some informations where the one having these informations doesn't remember everything in detail and is willing to take the risk. "Informed consent" is the keyword, however. At least, when the White Counsil will take a look at it later...
What the White Council could do to discover such volunteered mindreadings? They simply find some out-of-their-mind people...

Could there be done anything to avoid the traces in one other's mind? Or could there be different levels of mindreading?
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Discipol on July 25, 2011, 11:08:56 AM
You don't understand what mind reading means. Your mind enters his brain so it must hold two consciousnesses. This will create like brain lessons, and probably develop split personalities, or perhaps part of your mind gets cut or copied in his. Its not like Prof. Xavier. Think of it like two computers. To hack one, you go inside and leave a mark. Your computer has firewalls if you are volunteer or not. And those have to be taken down, the hacked computer has fewer resources to sustain the intruder.

Remember that mind magic + transmuting bodies are against the law specifically because its unnatural.

A soulgaze is different. The souls get to meet and poke each other, and even in this event leaves marks on each other's souls, forever. But the mind is fragile, and the body needs to function properly.

So even if I would volunteer, the process would leave me scarred and become a victim, where as the caster would have a stain on his soul of inflicting this damage on my mind.

If you want to read someone's mind, just ask him since he is a volunteer. If he is not, use some red vampire saliva on him. best trust detector out there, or put maneuvers on him via intimidate/rapport or break/shoot one of his arms until he is taken out your way. And you define he spills the beans.


From a game system point of view, mind reading is game breaking, leaving social mechanisms useless, plus you as a PC can get mind raped by major powers like the fey queens. Secrets have power and you wouldn't want that power stolen, would you? :D
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Rubycon on July 25, 2011, 11:46:01 AM
Seriously, I don't get you.
As mind reading is not possible in our world, I certainly cannot understand what it means. As for this, I can discuss the consequences of mindreading for the (read: my!) game.
In the game (rulebook), two things are clear: First, mindreading is forbidden by the third law and second, mindreading is dangerous for both the reader and the "victim", be it a volunteer or not. Dangerous, however, does not mean "automatic" consequences, so  it would be interesting if there are ways to limit the dangers associated with mindreading.

And, last thing: mind reading is game breaking? uhh?
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Radijs on July 25, 2011, 12:08:35 PM
'truth magic' and by exstention mind reading can have wide implications for an investigative game.

The most basic example: You're talking to the killed and ask 'did you kill mr X' and your lie detector goes *BEEP!* the mystery's over.
The same works for mind reading magic, you just rifle through the man's memories and turn up the incriminating evidence.

Of course without consent, its black magic in Dresden files.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: DFJunkie on July 25, 2011, 12:51:13 PM
Quote
'truth magic' and by exstention mind reading can have wide implications for an investigative game.

Only if you assume that the word "reading" is literal rather than metaphorical.  If the viewer has to access memories as direct sense impressions rather than abstract thoughts it would probably be a lot more subjective, as well as a great deal more confusing and potentially stressful.

I'd say this is a good subject for discussion.  If the GM is good at trippy Kafkaesque dream sequences and is prepared for the possibility that some of his NPCs might get mind read I think it could add enjoyment to the game without crippling the plot, and if you don't want an NPC mind read just have him or her say "no."
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Radijs on July 25, 2011, 01:07:18 PM
Hence why I said can have wide implications. :)
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: SunlessNick on July 25, 2011, 01:58:50 PM
Quote
By the letter of the law, yes.  It might not get you the lawbreaker stunt but wardens probably wouldn't care...  -  UmbraLux
I don't know that's true.  The letter of the Law is "invade," which by definition excludes permission.  Unlike the first Law, the third is written in a way that implies a manner and motive.  It still crosses the same lines of self/world either way, but I could see mind-reading with permission as a case where the Wardens might be more lenient than the Lawbreaker stunt.  So long as they believe you only looked at what you were permitted to of course.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: noclue on July 25, 2011, 02:59:34 PM
Quote from: SunlessNick on July 25, 2011, 01:58:50 PM
I don't know that's true.  The letter of the Law is "invade," which by definition excludes permission.  Unlike the first Law, the third is written in a way that implies a manner and motive.  It still crosses the same lines of self/world either way, but I could see mind-reading with permission as a case where the Wardens might be more lenient than the Lawbreaker stunt.  So long as they believe you only looked at what you were permitted to of course.
Sounds like a game to me.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Discipol on July 25, 2011, 03:26:02 PM
A person's mind is not like a radio transmitter, you just need a radio station to get the info. Its more like entering a room with dirty feet, taking something then leaving, soiling the floor :) Even a powerful white wizard like the librarian guy from the books left his mark on the warden leader, and he sure did try to cover his tracks.

Yes, reading the mind is gamebreaking. The example the top dude is a good one. If batman could read minds there would hardly be a need for detective-ism, would it?

Also any high power could read your mind without any repercussions, since you either volunteer or die.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: DFJunkie on July 25, 2011, 03:31:33 PM
Quote
If batman could read minds there would hardly be a need for detective-ism, would it?

This is true, except Batman doesn't have Lawbreaker to worry about.  There's no question that, outside a person saying "yes, please take a rummage around in my memories" accessing their mind is a violation of the Law.  If the GM doesn't want an NPCs mind read, just have that NPC decline.  If the PCs somehow convince him to do so through social conflict, well, they could have just stated the Taken Out result is "the NPC comes clean." 

Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Farbot on July 25, 2011, 03:49:13 PM
Ultimately it's your game and you and your players can do what you like. But I would offer this:

1) Define "mind reading" for your self and your PC's, then make it abundantly clear to your PC's the effects and consequences of the act of reading another characters mind.

2) Don't make reading the NPC's mind the only option open for the PC's to get the info that they need. Leave them the option of getting the information some other way, even if that other way is the extremely hard way :P (it would make a good test of character for the PC's)

And as for people finding out, I would think that a soul gaze or looking at some one with the sight would reveal damage done or traces left. Some may be more visible than others. I would make the "gazer" roll for it depending on how obvious or subtle the damage is.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: ARedthorn on July 25, 2011, 06:50:01 PM
If I can draw a parallel... another law forbids diddling with someone else's body, but at least one member of the senior council is adept at healing through magic. Conceivably, his magic could operate by accelerating the natural healing processes of the body, but even that has consequences... and any more in depth healing would definitely be a violation of the second law, if it weren't mastered completely, carefully done, entirely beneficial, relatively safe, and consensual.

I imagine there are at least a handful of wizards who know their way around psychic healing/exploration, if only for the sake of being able to identify psychic damage or alterations and stabilize minds... in fact, I'm pretty sure the same senior council member says that he can do as much, but only very very carefully.

I'd say that makes it possible, but... very... very... unlikely. Like- the kind of unlikely where you'd need his specific oversight to confirm your methods and motives are completely safe, 100% of the time, to the degree that he would stake his life on it.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Rubycon on July 25, 2011, 07:10:45 PM
I like your comments, Redthorn and Farbot... ;)

by the way: I didn't start this thread because I want my players to be able to mindread and by no means I wanted to discuss if it is dangerous - it is! But I think every rule has his exceptions, even for the White Council and volunteering along with a very good cause could be one in my opinion. That doesn't make it any easier or less dangerous. I do, however, think that such a good and plausible cause would result in getting the character no Lawbreaker power. At least, if the results are not too much devastating...
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Discipol on July 26, 2011, 10:42:24 AM
AHA!
Healing magic is not transmutation. She didn't mend his flesh together, she just stimulated the body's natural healing. Just like removing the salt from a wound through washing.

And he was a volunteer lol, even if he didn't say it, she was a hot chick wanting to play magical touchy-touchy on him :D
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: NicholasQuinn on July 26, 2011, 11:11:57 AM
Whilst the White Council might, and even then I'm doubtful, over-look such an act, I believe personally that it would still warrant the Lawbreaker Stunt. Just because somebody has given permission, does not mean you aren't breaking down metaphorical doors/windows to get into their mind. Human minds are our inner sanctums, and are locked (biologically, and in a way mentally) from others. I just don't see how, even with consent, you could enter their mind and not leave damage; it isn't like they can open the door to let you in, at least, as far as I'm aware. If they were of the magic persausion, they could do something similar; broadcast their thoughts, such as Harry and Elaine do to eachother. But to actively read someones mind would count as an Invasion regardless of intent or consent, IMO.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: ARedthorn on July 26, 2011, 12:52:42 PM
I actually wasn't referring to her- but to
(click to show/hide)
(not sure if that deserved spoiler text, but not taking a risk).
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Discipol on July 26, 2011, 12:56:41 PM
I think in the end its the backend side. It is YOU who chooses to go into someone else's mind.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Farbot on July 26, 2011, 04:46:58 PM
I think everyone has valid points on the subject of consequences. Whether or not to hand out the lawbreaker stunt in this case is tricky in that both sides of the argument are correct. Those who say that if it's done with consent and good intentions believe that they would be acting within the spirit of the law and those who say that any fiddling with the mind whatsoever is an unequivocal NO, believe in the letter of the law. In light of this stalemate I would suggest that the result should be dependent upon the play group. A discussion of morals and consequences would point you to the climate of the groups feelings and then the game can proceed with whatever's agreed upon. Because after all it's about the story and everyone enjoying themselves, the rules are just there to facilitate.  
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: zenten on July 26, 2011, 05:15:55 PM
Quote from: ARedthorn on July 26, 2011, 12:52:42 PM
I actually wasn't referring to her- but to
(click to show/hide)
(not sure if that deserved spoiler text, but not taking a risk).
(click to show/hide)

Mind you, who's to say that he doesn't have the Lawbreaker power?
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Rubycon on July 26, 2011, 05:16:48 PM
Ive read in the rulebook that the 6 Laws of the White Council is about the spirit of these laws...
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: SunlessNick on July 26, 2011, 06:57:43 PM
Quote
Those who say that if it's done with consent and good intentions believe that they would be acting within the spirit of the law and those who say that any fiddling with the mind whatsoever is an unequivocal NO, believe in the letter of the law.  -  Farbot
But the letter of the law is still "invade" - a word that presupposes a lack of consent and ill-motive.  The first two laws say "never take a life" and "never transform another," neither of which account for motive - that the third law is phrased in a way that does imply manner and motive, as opposed to saying "never read the thoughts of another" or "never enter the thoughts of another," seems like it should matter, not least because we're talking about things that have magical consequence as well as legal.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Radijs on July 26, 2011, 07:22:29 PM
Quote from: ARedthorn on July 26, 2011, 12:52:42 PM
I actually wasn't referring to her- but to
(click to show/hide)
(not sure if that deserved spoiler text, but not taking a risk).
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: noclue on July 27, 2011, 01:04:29 AM
Quote from: SunlessNick on July 26, 2011, 06:57:43 PM
But the letter of the law is still "invade" - a word that presupposes a lack of consent and ill-motive.  The first two laws say "never take a life" and "never transform another," neither of which account for motive - that the third law is phrased in a way that does imply manner and motive, as opposed to saying "never read the thoughts of another" or "never enter the thoughts of another," seems like it should matter, not least because we're talking about things that have magical consequence as well as legal.
Sounds like something your PC could argue during the trial. Good social conflict there.
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Michael Sandy on August 03, 2011, 10:46:06 AM
I had been thinking of some background for a wizard who had been involved in shutting down the CIA's mindreading and other psychic phenomena program in the 1960s.  I am trying to come up with a good aspect relating to his training, that he basically trained against what he expected to face.  So he and a couple other apprentices were trained on how to resist mind probes and domination, and to do that, they also had to learn how to do mind probes and domination type mental attacks.

Basicly they had little mental duels, where they would write down a 'secret' on a scrap of paper, and their opponent had to somehow find out that secret within a short time period, then they would switch roles for a period, and so on.

Maybe the aspect would be "My training gaves me nightmares... here, let me share them with you"
Title: Re: mindreading with a volunteer?
Post by: Rubycon on August 03, 2011, 02:50:47 PM
or, maybe an aspect like "I have seen things I didn't want to and neither shouldn't" as a reference to the program where the wizard occasionally found more in the minds of his peers than a single word...