Yeah. It sure looks that way from here, don't it. Smiley
But to correct some minor stuff: the fetches aren't even /close/ to her strongest servitors. They're her couriers, harassers, spies and occasional assassins. Captain Kudzu was a being that was deemed more-or-less sufficient on the badassometer, but nothing to write home about. The fetches main use, to Mab, isn't as battlefield thugs. She's got /plenty/ of other things for that. Another mild correction: who says Mab /lost/ the battle at Arctis Tor, before Harry and Company arrived? At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress--but you didn't see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya. Smiley Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments--exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.
(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn't infallible. Just way closer to infallible than us.)
See above regarding "the question is *why*?"
Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in. What chain of events did that set in motion? What secondary effects came about because of it?
It may not have been a rope-a-dope, totally. Could be that Mab was trying to manipulate Harry into being there when the BC attacked, but he was a bit slow on the uptick to get there in time. Either way, Harry knows the nickleheads were involved in attacking her.
Here's something that bothers me about the BC attack on Arctis. The BC must have known that the only thing keeping the Summer court from helping the council against the vamps was that winter was on summers borders. So why would they attack Arctis and risk winter pulling back to defend its own territory, thus leaving Summer open to help the Council just as it did when harry 'attacked' Arctis?
Some speculation about the importance of Molly:
I'll leave the really crazy theories to the "quacks", but I think we have some evidence that Molly is important.
- Lea attempts to bargain with Michael for Molly in PG.
- Father Forthill's "hunch" at the end of PG -> it implies that the WG wanted Harry to teach Molly.
- The fact that there was a BC operation targeting her.
Here's my final thought:
- We know that Harry is an "outsiderbane".
- We have the WoJ that he's not that unique and that there are others.
What if all it takes to make an outsiderbane is a Mother who is a Wizard and a Father who is a "Good Man"?
- It makes sense from a wizard+cleric dnd point of view
- That would certainly make Harry an outsiderbane (it's certainly explains why people keep telling Harry "Your father was a good man")
- It would make Molly an outsiderbane, and therefore doubly attractive as a BC recruit...
…I asked him the question :)
The full question was if he had stated in the past, during an interview, that Elaine also was a candidate to have the potential to wield power over Outsiders. His longer answer was yes, he had said that before, that Harry and Elaine are just a few months apart age wise so for all intensive purposes the same age. He then told me that was one of the reasons that Justin had picked both of them to adopt, it wasn't just random kids with power. The key word in my question and his answer was potential.
First, I've gotta say that this is an awesome theory. You did a great job of laying out the evidence, and coming up with a new and innovative way of explaining what's going on in the background. Bravo.
Now as to your speculation at the end, I have a few holes to poke. I think they are patchable, I just have to point some things out.
Leme quote what we have on this WoJ (directly from the forum member that asked the question of Jim, emphasis added)
Thanks Serack. Coming from you, that is a great compliment.
I was actually looking for that specific WoJ you quoted, as I wanted to see if it helps my case in any way.
As you pointed out, it doesn't. :P
Isn't there another, more general WoJ saying something like "there are other potential Outsiderbane candidates" floating around somewhere?
Or, I can always revise my theory to be "Molly is special because she is Mab"... ;)
Perfect solution, except for one thing....
Harry accidentally blows up the wellspring of Winter during the fight - wounding Mab (that's right, Harry wounded Mab, not the Hellfire attack), and calling back the hosts of Winter.
Wow - why didn't I see this earlier?
This is awesome-good theoretical work knnn!
To throw a little more fuel on, consider this...
If we extend that future vision just a little bit, it makes more sense to me that Raschid would be more concerned with saving massive quantities of WC casualties/fatalities than he would be concerned about one still very minor warlockette.
By moving the pieces just so, he* arranged for Michael to accompany a whole lot of WC personnel thru the NN back to Chicago - thus preventing the RCV+ Outsider ambush from becoming a rout & a slaughter.
In PG, Eb himself seems to think that the RCVs combined with the outsiders they encountered would have been much more deadly without a KOC there to deal with 'tentacles and things'.
While I'm certain (from his actions / word choice) that Raschid was offended by what the Merlin was intent on doing to Molly, IMO the real goal was probably to save all those young wardens - and the experienced wizards accompanying them. It was also an effective action against outsiders, which is admittedly something that Raschid has a professional interest in... :)
So, I'm positing that the Gatekeeper was warning Harry about black magic as part of a goal to save WC lives AND act against outsiders. Saving Molly may have been just a nice bonus...
It is a case of wheels within wheels...
*As food for thought: Were two seemingly unrelated plans (Mab and Gatekeeper) that just happened to wind up supporting each other quite well a mere coincidence?
It is possible I suppose, but if there is some kind of communications channel between the Gatekeeper and Mab (which I have suspected at least somewhat since the Gatekeeper turned up with that chunk of stone table AND when Mab recognized his anti-Fae eye-unguent) then I think it hangs together somewhat better...
*As food for thought: Were two seemingly unrelated plans (Mab and Gatekeeper) that just happened to wind up supporting each other quite well a mere coincidence?
It is possible I suppose, but if there is some kind of communications channel between the Gatekeeper and Mab (which I have suspected at least somewhat since the Gatekeeper turned up with that chunk of stone table AND when Mab recognized his anti-Fae eye-unguent) then I think it hangs together somewhat better...
I'll have a lot more to say within the week, but there's another dimension here for the "communications channel" in that I'm pretty sure that Michael was already leaving Chicago on a calling before Harry even spoke with him after getting the Gatekeeper's message. Implying that someone on that side of things had a toe in the mud too.
Other possible WG touches:
- The whole "Molly coincidentally interrupted me before I could disastrously use Little Chicago" seems very WG in flavor.
- Father Forthill's hunch at the end of PG ("You're being prepared for something").
Based on the thing you and Piotr have suggested, it sounds like nearly every major power in the DV had a hand in the events surrounding Molly's abduction. This makes it *much* more plausible to me that "Molly is Special" is a valid theory.
P.S. Serack.
I'm interested in seeing what else you come up with after your re-read. Let me know!
I think it's possible that a large part of any special value Molly has is defined by her value to Harry, both as a means of catalizing his magical development, and as a resource later in the series/in the BAT.
It could also be her association, (-1) to a dragon. Charity had talent, Gregor was making deals with a dragon to gain more power. It could be that there was an unknown, or heck maybe even Gregor she never says he died, that is playing around in the background.
I'll have a lot more to say within the week, but there's another dimension here for the "communications channel" in that I'm pretty sure that Michael was already leaving Chicago on a calling before Harry even spoke with him after getting the Gatekeeper's message. Implying that someone on that side of things had a toe in the mud too.Maybe more than one toe. <LOL>
Welcome to the boards, it's what we do :D
brief pause while i post to remember this thread....
now back to your regularly scheduled theory-gasms.
:)poppyhead
By moving the pieces just so, he* arranged for Michael to accompany a whole lot of WC personnel thru the NN back to Chicago - thus preventing the RCV+ Outsider ambush from becoming a rout & a slaughter.This seems to fit with Bob's explanation of sending messages back in time, The Gatekeeper couldn't tell Harry what he needed to know to save the WC but he could tell Harry what he needed to know to save molly and as a side effect save the WC.
In PG, Eb himself seems to think that the RCVs combined with the outsiders they encountered would have been much more deadly without a KOC there to deal with 'tentacles and things'.
While I'm certain (from his actions / word choice) that Raschid was offended by what the Merlin was intent on doing to Molly, IMO the real goal was probably to save all those young wardens - and the experienced wizards accompanying them. It was also an effective action against outsiders, which is admittedly something that Raschid has a professional interest in... :)
So, I'm positing that the Gatekeeper was warning Harry about black magic as part of a goal to save WC lives AND act against outsiders. Saving Molly may have been just a nice bonus...
Agravaine you are assuming that the assault failed in its goals, but the only bodies Harry & co. find are those of trolls so apparently no one from the assault team died, if no one died in the attempt it makes no sense to withdraw before completing your goal, I think the most likely reason for the attack was as a jail break..
What if it wasnt an attack, it was a recue?
Lea was still encased in ice at the time wasnt she?
Winter forces were at the border, leaving Arctis Tor mostly undefended.
Mabs powerful but I really struggle to believe shes click my fingers and armies die powerful, we did see her at war once remember....
2) I've had a theory that Harry's father was a retired Knight of the Cross. A stage magician would be an excellent cover for a retired Knight considering the church's views on magic. It would help to conceal him from both supernatural predators ad the church itself.Couldn't Malcolm be a vanilla mortal, and just a decent person who had to take care of his talented son?
But Mab has growing doubts about her top lieutenant and she sends the fetches to take Molly. So now Lea leads the attack on Arctis Tor to try an seize Molly for her own.Lea was already unavailable in DB, sorry.
But when you think about it, other than Molly's mind-control stuff, is there any other Black Magic going on in Chicago? What exactly is the Gatekeeper trying to prevent?
I've seen the various theories that they had some hold or bargain over Mab, or that maybe this was a strike to remove the Athame from Mab's possession (heck, I made that one myself at some point), but then this never really explained why Harry needed to come to Arctis Tor - the real attack was already defeated.
- Madrigal is a known cats-paw for the BC. Someone invited him over a year before the convention started. Speculation is that he covering for **something**
that the general BC mode of operation is to give powerful-but-dangerous black magic tools to various people and let them run loose:
- Victor Sells
- Hexunwulf FBI
- Kravos
1) Scarecrow is not that important to her that she wouldn't risk him in an attempt to gain something.
Harry accidentally blows up the wellspring of Winter during the fight - wounding Mab (that's right, Harry wounded Mab, not the Hellfire attack), and calling back the hosts of Winter.
Oops...
I bold-faced the part that I think implies that Harry's "pour Summer Fire into Winter's heart" was not by design.
- Lea attempts to bargain with Michael for Molly in PG.
- Father Forthill's "hunch" at the end of PG -> it implies that the WG wanted Harry to teach Molly.
Harry accidentally blows up the wellspring of Winter during the fight - wounding Mab (that's right, Harry wounded Mab, not the Hellfire attack)
Yes, but do you really think Mab couldn't dispose of any bodies she wanted to?
We have seen her against Summer, with her exact equal Titania countering everything she did. The Queens balance each other, and The war between the Fae court really boils down to the small pieces. (like Toot in SK :))
The question would then, be, why would she not want to dispose of the trolls and goblins ?
I rose and nudged a smaller skull with my staff. "The littler ones were goblins," I said. "Foot soldiers."
But goblins are the Erlking's subjects, no? They wouldn't be defending Mab's stronghold. So, is this a clue that the Erlking was one of the attackers, or is Harry just mistaken?
I had not thought of that before. Good point. I thought the remains were there were all defenders, but I do not recall where I got that impression.
I think from what we see in SK that any wyldfae can be recruited by Summer or Winter if need be, so them being Winter goblins is not a problem for me. The trolls definitely are Winter, Harry gets a memory flash from one of them IIRC.
Good point about the Courts recruiting wyldfae, but I still find Mab Calling the Erlking a bit odd.
This is the second time that you mentioned that there were dead goblins on Arctis Tor, so I just had to check, and that is indeed what Harry says (Proven Guilty, paperback pg. 357):QuoteI rose and nudged a smaller skull with my staff. "The littler ones were goblins," I said. "Foot soldiers."
"I..." I shuddered. "I think they're goblins."
"You think?"
"I've never seen one before," I replied. "But... they match the descriptions I've heard."
"Shouldn't we be able to handle, like, a million of them?"
I snorted. "You liked those movies too, huh?"
Her reply was a smile, one touched with sadness.
"Yeah, I was thinking of you when I saw them, too."
Another troop of battered, lantern-jawed, burly humanoids with wide, batlike ears, goblins, dragged their dead and some of their wounded over to the sylphs
There you go.
Continuity error or mind whammy. You be the judge.
Continuity error or mind whammy. You be the judge.
Probably not, but if you'll be the actress I can be the bishop.
That's a new feeling...
"How did you know where I was"
"Sandra." he [BF Nelson] said."I called her cell. She told me you'd checked in."
"Their summoner is going to draw them in," I finished, following the line of reasoning. "It's like... I could blanket the surrounding area in fog, but if they have someone on this end, the phages will have a beacon they can use to home in on the hotel."
...Streamers from the lure whipped out along the lines of power that constituted my detection web, brushing lightly at the entities, attracting their attention, giving them a whiff of rich sustenance.
And somewhere in the middle of all that, I felt a single, quiet, quivering pulse- A living presence that could only be the phages' summoner and beacon.
#2
If Glau was another cutout for who set Madrigal Raith up to take the fall for the Fetch attacks, and the Scarecrow took him out to silence him, then that implies that Mab was involved in that setup.
#3
Someone directed Harry's wammy reversal to detect Molly from within his web on the Theater.
I get the impression from this and BR that that may be a standard White Council defensive practice
i could be wrong but doesnt Bob actually say something right along those lines????
Bob’s eyelights brightened even more. “Ooooooo, classic White Council doctrine. When the phages come through, you point them straight at the guy who summoned them. Give him a dose of his own medicine.”
#3
Someone directed Harry's wammy reversal to detect Molly from within his web on the Theater.
In the last Fetch attack on the Theater, Harry had his web up to detect the entrance of the phages, and to detect their summoner.Quote from: PG ch.25...Streamers from the lure whipped out along the lines of power that constituted my detection web, brushing lightly at the entities, attracting their attention, giving them a whiff of rich sustenance.
And somewhere in the middle of all that, I felt a single, quiet, quivering pulse- A living presence that could only be the phages' summoner and beacon.
I'm projecting here, but maybe someone with a thomatalogical (msp) link to Molly had their own little spell going, and dangled that link out in Harry's web for him to latch his lure onto. I say this, because Molly wasn't inside his web, she was at her parent's home. Maybe Mab couldn't send the Fetches to "fetch" Molly, but if another mortal sent them after her that would get the trick done.
"Their summoner is going to draw them in," I finished, following the line of reasoning. "It's like... I could blanket the surrounding area in fog, but if they have someone on this end, the phages will have a beacon they can use to home in on the hotel."
But to correct some minor stuff: the fetches aren't even /close/ to her strongest servitors. They're her couriers, harassers, spies and occasional assassins. Captain Kudzu was a being that was deemed more-or-less sufficient on the badassometer, but nothing to write home about. The fetches main use, to Mab, isn't as battlefield thugs. She's got /plenty/ of other things for that.
#2
If Glau was another cutout for who set Madrigal Raith up to take the fall for the Fetch attacks, and the Scarecrow took him out to silence him, then that implies that Mab was involved in that setup.
ok so i reread this section again it seems to ME that the "web" is a warding spell to detect when the phages cross over from the never never and is linked to the ward candles and is simply used for Timeing a SEPERATE spell the one he is activly holding ready to cast at the beacon of fear he senses.
idk if that clear an makes sense or not but basically your dealing with two seperate spells NOT one
1 is the warding spell he already cast with playdoh an candles and requires no aditional effort
2 is the spell he is holding ready in the circle useing his own fear to create a thalmaturgic link to the summoner/beacon who is also useing fear
Not necessarily. Assuming the Scarecrow was working for Mab(which I think is likely, now), all this point shows is that Mab didn't want Harry to know whatever it was that Glau might have been able to tell him. And since the fetches had just snatched Molly and taken her to Mab's Winter wonderland on the parapet, it would seem to indicate that that's where Mab wanted Harry to be. If Glau had started talking about some third party's involvement, Harry might have gotten sidetracked and not even noticed that Molly was gone until after he'd become entangled in some Black Council mess.
further reading makes me think maybe ur onto something but i stand by the fact that he cast 2 spells not one
I was just going to say that maybe Glau was the practitioner who was behind a lot of the stuff I am theorizing about, but I just remembered that he was the one on the computer in the Fool Moon garage.Except it does still work, Glau wasn't human and non humans don't have the tech problems.
Except it does still work, Glau wasn't human and non humans don't have the tech problems.Glau is half human like Kincaid. We don't know how it works out in these cases.
#1If Sandra Marling is non-human (or potentially half human) that would answer the cell phone use issue.
Sandra Marling is usually pointed to as the main orchestrator for all things nasty that happened at Splattercon since she motivated Molly to use fear, and people point out that she didn't touch Harry. However, if she were powerful enough to knock out the lights and set up the cold wards around the Fetch attacks, she might have trouble using a cell phone:
This doesn't definitively show that she wasn't the one throwing around magic but. It's a strike against her, and indicates there was another player in the background, that might have been using her as a cutout.
kincaid has no magical talent tho so that not really a good comparisonWe actually don't know scions with magical talents.
#1
Sandra Marling is usually pointed to as the main orchestrator for all things nasty that happened at Splattercon since she motivated Molly to use fear, and people point out that she didn't touch Harry. However, if she were powerful enough to knock out the lights and set up the cold wards around the Fetch attacks, she might have trouble using a cell phone:
This doesn't definitively show that she wasn't the one throwing around magic but. It's a strike against her, and indicates there was another player in the background, that might have been using her as a cutout.
#2
If Glau was another cutout for who set Madrigal Raith up to take the fall for the Fetch attacks, and the Scarecrow took him out to silence him, then that implies that Mab was involved in that setup.
#3
Someone directed Harry's wammy reversal to detect Molly from within his web on the Theater.
In reality of course, Mab sent the Fetches specifically to pick up Molly, so that it was never the fault of Harry's spell. It just hit one of the BC wizards, who managed to deflect it.
Whatever the larger strategic situation, that has a superfluous moving part.
Harry's defence against the phages is standard Council doctrine, we've established that. Mab knows how it's supposed to work. Mab sending fetches in a way that she knows will interact with Harry doing the standard Council defence for the apparent situation to give her Molly still seems to need no deflection, from my perspective, even if getting Molly is the whole point.
- Then Harry sets up his spell to turn the Fetches on "however is summoning them", and maybe hits one of the BC members, who manages to deflect it. Unfortunalty fetches then seemingly go and abduct Molly instead of the hypothetical BMW they believe are messing with their plans.