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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Tallyrand on March 15, 2011, 10:53:05 PM
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Ok, so one thing that I'm finding difficulty with in games is the lack of variation in combat speed. It doesn't matter if you're the Flash or a sloth, everyone gets one action per round. I know that putting extra actions as a flat bonus for the speed powers would unbalance things but I would like to try to find a solution to this. Currently in my game I've suggested the rule that with a Fate Chip and an appropriate aspect (or power) you can at any time take an action, even out of turn order. This works for most normal situations, but still doesn't quite fix the problem to my satisfaction.
Does anyone else agree that this is a problem? Has anyone used house rules in there game to allow for multiple actions per round?
(Note: While this is of course primarily for speed and its effects in the DFRPG I'd love to see how people have used it or seen it used in hacked systems as well, as I think that with this fix Fate would be great for representing Shadowrun or a Super Hero genre game.)
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Ok, so one thing that I'm finding difficulty with in games is the lack of variation in combat speed. It doesn't matter if you're the Flash or a sloth, everyone gets one action per round. I know that putting extra actions as a flat bonus for the speed powers would unbalance things but I would like to try to find a solution to this. Currently in my game I've suggested the rule that with a Fate Chip and an appropriate aspect (or power) you can at any time take an action, even out of turn order. This works for most normal situations, but still doesn't quite fix the problem to my satisfaction.
Does anyone else agree that this is a problem? Has anyone used house rules in there game to allow for multiple actions per round?
(Note: While this is of course primarily for speed and its effects in the DFRPG I'd love to see how people have used it or seen it used in hacked systems as well, as I think that with this fix Fate would be great for representing Shadowrun or a Super Hero genre game.)
The main alternatives to a flat initiative system is either a tick system (Exalted TM) or a multiple action power (celerity etc) the problem with a tick system is that it is complicated and abuseable when stacking low tick attacks with speed reducing powers. The problem with a celerity power that provides extra actions is that anyone without this power is left in the dust as action are the ultimate resource in any game. Given also that part of the charm of fate is that it has a simple and quick combat system adding in extra actions powers could considerably slowdown the game.
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Do you really only get one action?
Or is it that you only get one ROLL?
Sure, you can have your character stand still, fire one bullet from his fully-automatic high-powered assault rifle, and call it a day (make a Guns attack against an enemy)...
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OR...you can somersault over the heads of a dozen ghouls, your assault rifle blazing, kick off the wall of the alley they're likely now cowering in, and land, triumphant, on the roof of the building opposite (zone-wide spray attack against an adjacent zone modified by athletics with a supplemental action to move to a third zone adjacent to the other two - overcoming a significant barrier, no doubt)
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I've given this some thought, but I don't have a good answer. So far, this has not been much of a problem. But it did shut down my Shadowrun-to-DFRPG conversion idea.
Anyway, one fate point is almost certainly too cheap. Actions are a big deal.
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Do you really only get one action?
Or is it that you only get one ROLL?
Sure, you can have your character stand still, fire one bullet from his fully-automatic high-powered assault rifle, and call it a day (make a Guns attack against an enemy)...
...
OR...you can somersault over the heads of a dozen ghouls, your assault rifle blazing, kick off the wall of the alley they're likely now cowering in, and land, triumphant, on the roof of the building opposite (zone-wide spray attack against an adjacent zone modified by athletics with a supplemental action to move to a third zone adjacent to the other two - overcoming a significant barrier, no doubt)
QFT. WIN!
Gain 1 Prose Point, if you collect such things!
-EF
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Do you really only get one action?
Or is it that you only get one ROLL?
Sure, you can have your character stand still, fire one bullet from his fully-automatic high-powered assault rifle, and call it a day (make a Guns attack against an enemy)...
...
OR...you can somersault over the heads of a dozen ghouls, your assault rifle blazing, kick off the wall of the alley they're likely now cowering in, and land, triumphant, on the roof of the building opposite (zone-wide spray attack against an adjacent zone modified by athletics with a supplemental action to move to a third zone adjacent to the other two - overcoming a significant barrier, no doubt)
But outside of the slight different in movement distance none of that has anything to do with the character and Sloth Man could pull of the same trick if his player decided to describe it as such.
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But outside of the slight different in movement distance none of that has anything to do with the character and Sloth Man could pull of the same trick if his player decided to describe it as such.
Sloth Man probably would get a Compel to be slothful.
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But outside of the slight different in movement distance none of that has anything to do with the character and Sloth Man could pull of the same trick if his player decided to describe it as such.
A fast character gets a bonus to the roll to overcome barriers between zones, and will likely have at least one aspect that can be invoked for a bonus on the basis that all of that action will be easier for someone who can move faster. They also are more likely to receive a bonus to the attack-modified-by-athletics both from receiving a bonus to athletics and having a better justification simply for having a high athletics.
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Does anyone else agree that this is a problem?
Not really, no. If someone wants to be faster than other folks, they should spend some refresh.
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Do you really only get one action?
Or is it that you only get one ROLL?
Sure, you can have your character stand still, fire one bullet from his fully-automatic high-powered assault rifle, and call it a day (make a Guns attack against an enemy)...
...
OR...you can somersault over the heads of a dozen ghouls, your assault rifle blazing, kick off the wall of the alley they're likely now cowering in, and land, triumphant, on the roof of the building opposite (zone-wide spray attack against an adjacent zone modified by athletics with a supplemental action to move to a third zone adjacent to the other two - overcoming a significant barrier, no doubt)
You get awesomness points. I have no problem with having only one attack per turn. It speeds thing up. That always bothered me in d&d, you have four players and each player has about 4-5 attacks(or even more) and in that case combat lasts for hours and hours... Fate is simple and fun,and you can do things you couldn't do in d&d :D
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You get awesomness points. I have no problem with having only one attack per turn. It speeds thing up. That always bothered me in d&d, you have four players and each player has about 4-5 attacks(or even more) and in that case combat lasts for hours and hours... Fate is simple and fun,and you can do things you couldn't do in d&d :D
Eh? I have never played D&D to such levels that my character had multiple attacks, apart from CRPGs based on D&D.
But in other game systems where I had characters with multiple attacks, combat was short and brutal. One of the fastest combat I recall was against a horde of zombies with the Mirumoto trained Hida making multiple attacks a turn.
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Not really, no. If someone wants to be faster than other folks, they should spend some refresh.
Oh, without a doubt, the problem is that currently there is no way to spend refresh on this.
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You get awesomness points. I have no problem with having only one attack per turn. It speeds thing up. That always bothered me in d&d, you have four players and each player has about 4-5 attacks(or even more) and in that case combat lasts for hours and hours... Fate is simple and fun,and you can do things you couldn't do in d&d :D
There is certainly a balance that must be reached, otherwise combat does bog down with multiple attacks. Honestly I'm just looking for some well balanced ideas on how to allow for say one or two characters in a group of 5 to have two actions a round.
For villains I find this very easy to balance, I just create two guys and then put them both in the same body, I'd just really like to find a balanced way to do this for players and I'm drawing a complete blank.
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How about allowing people with speed powers to make spray attacks/maneuvers regardless of what weapon they are using.
Maybe something like:
Inhuman Speed: Spray attacks allowed, Bonus of +1
Supernatural Speed: Spray Attacks allowed, Bonus of +2
Mythic Speed: Spray Attacks allowed, Bonus of +3
I suppose this would increase the refresh cost of speed powers by -1 refresh.
Balancing would have to be tested of course.
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My group never really experiences a problem with this. We're very clear that the characters in the game are built to reflect how a narrative unfolds, not to reflect a simulation of their actual abilities. So the reason The Flash and Sloth Man get to both have the same mechanical number of actions, regardless of description, is because the story is about how the two work together as a team, not about how The Flash takes out 6 thugs while Sloth Man only manages to take down 1.
It's similar to how, when a Conflict starts, you break it up into groups like "The Flash vs 3 vampires" and "Sloth Man vs the evil wizard", and even if The Flash beats those 3 vampires before Sloth Man has beaten the evil wizard, he can't interfere, because his part of the story for that Conflict was about him fighting the vampires. Fighting the evil wizard, at that point, is Sloth Man's part of the story.
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With the Spray attacks and Supplemental Actions already a part of the DFRPG rules, one effectively DOES have the capacity for multiple actions. They just require what may appear to be ridiculous skill penalties.
I've been gambling with the Fists/Guns skills of my enemy NPCs, using Spray attacks on all of the party members (bringing down each individual skill check to only +1 in the process), and they are still doing some damage to the party, and effectively increasing the tension.
So if you want to reflect a character's ability to perform multiple actions, boost the skills which come into play: either the primary attack, or any limiting Supplemental skills like Athletics. And also take Stunts which increase the skill rolls for applicable attacks/maneuvers/etc.
As for spending Refresh: I opt to use Refresh to lower the Time/Duration of a particular supernatural attack (1 Refresh to go from Full Round to Supplemental, or 2 Refresh to make it a Free Action).
Also, in the RAW, Stunts can be designed to decrease the Time/Duration of applicable noncombat skill rolls: how do folks feel about them making certain combat actions Supplemental or even Free?
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But outside of the slight different in movement distance none of that has anything to do with the character and Sloth Man could pull of the same trick if his player decided to describe it as such.
Alright, question: What prevents sloth man also describing his attacks as laser beams coming out of his eyes (assuming he doesn't have such a power, and that the description has the same mechanical effect as something he can actually do in the situation)? I'm not being sarcastic or rhetorical. It's really important to know how you'd answer this question to address your concerns.
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Alright, question: What prevents sloth man also describing his attacks as laser beams coming out of his eyes (assuming he doesn't have such a power, and that the description has the same mechanical effect as something he can actually do in the situation)?
Because eventually this will happen at the table:
Kyle: Okay, hang on guys, I'll use my special power to see into the future, and find out where we should head next.
Cartman: Hold on you guys, I actually have another power. I can see into the future too, but better than Kyle. Let me try.
Kyle: God damn it, Cartman, you can't keep making up powers!
Stan: Yeah, dude, that's like the fifth power you've come up with!
Cartman: I am Bullrog, and I have lots and lots of powers.
Kyle: No, [expletive deleted]! From now on you only get to have one power! So what is it?
Cartman: I have the power to have all the powers I want.
Kyle: That doesn't count, [expletive deleted]!
Stan: Yeah, that's it, Cartman, now you don't get to have any powers!
~ South Park, "Good Times with Weapons" [8.1]
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Because eventually this will happen at the table:
Which is amusing, but misses the point. I'm asking what actual procedures or aspects of the social contract prevent that from happening in the OP's group. This is with the understanding that nothing would prevent sloth man from going into super parkour mode, given the OP's statement as such earlier.
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Which is amusing, but misses the point. I'm asking what actual procedures or aspects of the social contract prevent that from happening in the OP's group. This is with the understanding that nothing would prevent sloth man from going into super parkour mode, given the OP's statement as such earlier.
His character concept. If his character concept is "I can shoot eye beams" and the rest of the party/DM is ok with that, then fine he can shoot eye lasers.
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If the rest of the group has a problem with Sloth Man's actions, then the rest of the group should speak up. That's how FATE works. If they don't have a problem with it, then...it's not a problem, now is it?
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Heres how I'd design it to try and keep balance:
-1 stunt: Multi attack.
1. Multi attacks up to the lesser of (weapon skill ), alertness
2. Weapon rolls no longer generate shifts only weapon damage is applied, if weapon damage is 0 instead assume it is 1.
IE defense roll 3 attack roll 5 with a weapon 3 gun inflicts 3 damage, the shifts from the skill roll only serve as a qualifier if you hit or not.
3. Keep making attack rolls vs the first defense or newly rolled defense for a second target until you choose to stop, have no more attacks left or if a counter-attack stunt comes into play.
4. Subtract the following from your defense rolls until your next turn.
1 per additional attack over 1
1 per additional target over 1.
So sure take 5 attacks in one round but you might be hurting for it. At higher numbers it doesn't make sense to take -10 defense but hey I came up with this in 5 minutes.
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How about allowing people with speed powers to make spray attacks/maneuvers regardless of what weapon they are using.
Gun to my head, I'd suggest this is the most elegant, easiest way forward, if you absolutely have to have this feature.
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Gun to my head, I'd suggest this is the most elegant, easiest way forward, if you absolutely have to have this feature.
It doesn't provide much benefit to attack the same target twice however.
IE, split up an 8 shift attack to +4 +4. say the opponent miraculously gets two +3 defenses.
With weapon
1: 4dmg
2: 6 dmg
3: 8 dmg
4: 10 dmg
But if you didn't "spray it" and opponent had +3 defense still you'd have
1: 6dmg
2: 7dmg
3: 8dmg
4: 9dmg
Plus with the sprayed attack you have a chance to fail and not do damage entirely on the second hit. All that for nothing? It should be a gamble to do but the rewards should be just as profound as the failures. But it is the quickest way to a solution.
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If you read his whole post, he suggested that Speed-powered folks would get some kind of a bonus on the split, to increase the potential benefits. While I don't have time to fine-tune that, I think probably this is the closest thing to the right track.
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It doesn't provide much benefit to attack the same target twice however.
IE, split up an 8 shift attack to +4 +4. say the opponent miraculously gets two +3 defenses.
With weapon
1: 4dmg
2: 6 dmg
3: 8 dmg
4: 10 dmg
But if you didn't "spray it" and opponent had +3 defense still you'd have
1: 6dmg
2: 7dmg
3: 8dmg
4: 9dmg
Plus with the sprayed attack you have a chance to fail and not do damage entirely on the second hit. All that for nothing? It should be a gamble to do but the rewards should be just as profound as the failures. But it is the quickest way to a solution.
It's not meant to be used on a single target, on a single target you can simply describe your one attack as being multiple attacks.
No benefit in damage for single target, that's true, but then again multiple actions only get really interesting when there are multiple targets involved, and that's what my idea was supposed to make possible.