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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Sanctaphrax on March 13, 2011, 06:06:28 AM

Title: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 13, 2011, 06:06:28 AM
As some of you may remember, I started a player's guide for this game some time ago. It's been languishing in obscurity for a while, though, because I got caught up in other things.

I'm coming back to it now.

For this player's guide I'd like to have a compilation of house rules and homebrew bits. So I've made this thread to gather and summarize the various rules changes that this board has come up with.

For homebrew rules bits, I've got:

crusher_bob's thaumaturgy system
Devonapple's conjuration table
The summoning systems thread (summary partially done)
Vehicle rules (summary done)

For houserules and optional rules, I've got:

Spin
Rolling for Initiative
Self-inflicted harm automatically satisfies catches
Spells and mental stress have a weird relationship
Lawbreaker can boost spells that resonate thematically with a law without breaking it
Lawbreaker adds to power and complexity as well as control
No Refinement on IoP
Weapon 4+ evocations are always considered lethal force
Fate points are transferred from character to character at the end of the scene
You can take consequences to convert a failed roll into a successful one if the margin of error was less than or equal to the consequence's value.
Some weapons have AP ratings, letting them ignore (AP rating) points of armour.
Spellcasters can evoke as a reflexive defence.
Attacking beyond your maximum range imposes a -2/zone penalty rather than being impossible.
Strength adds one/two zones of range to muscle-powered weaponry per level.
Extra shifts on a sprint action made to move into someone's zone subtract from the number of zones that that person can move next turn.

I'll be summarizing the homebrew threads over the next few days.

So, does anybody have any house rules or homebrew that they want to share?
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: crusher_bob on March 13, 2011, 11:43:34 AM
There's my thaumaturgy declaration mod, found here (http://dresden-sanfran.wikidot.com/sample-thaumaturgy).  There were also a few threads about ways to limit refinement + foci stacking for evocation that may be worth looking at, but I don't remember where they were right now.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 13, 2011, 07:46:11 PM
Thanks, bob. I really should have remembered that.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: crusher_bob on March 13, 2011, 11:51:05 PM
There's also:

Creating several aspects at once, usually with evocation or potions (example: power 9 potion used to create 3 fragile aspects at once)

Using a maneuver to put an aspect on everyone in a zone individually, by using 2 shifts to make it have a zone wide effect (example: knocking everyone in a zone off their feet)

Both of these rules should probably get the Champions "stop!" sign, since they can seriously bork up the action economy but it looks like some people use one or both of them; so adding a section to explain the common implementation and what's dangerous about the rules would be handy.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: MijRai on March 14, 2011, 02:01:00 AM
I agree with most all of it. The only problem with what you have is the hombrew of no mental stress attacks with magic. I mean, that is sort of what you do to break into a mind or enthrall them. You inflict Mental Stress until you Take them Out, and use that as the effect.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 14, 2011, 03:02:11 AM
Good point, MijRai.

Personally, I don't know exactly how to handle enthrallment without letting spells inflict mental stress.

Actually, I have no problem with Thaumaturgical mental attacks. But mental Evocation makes a mockery of Toughness powers.

Maybe mental evocations could just have a maximum control equal to their power and no weapon rating. That's not a carefully calculated ruling; it's just thinking out loud.

And crusher_bob's contributions have been noted.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Tedronai on March 14, 2011, 03:14:04 AM
Almost any evocation (or thaumaturgy, for that matter) mental attack is going to be an instant lawbreaker, and really is the only way to model the preferred methods of a certain Disciple of Kemmler

capping the control and removing the weapon rating seems to be a particularly harsh treatment of the practice
I could see imposing a -1 or -2 power tax to make an attack deal mental stress, though
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 14, 2011, 03:37:20 AM
It's meant to be harsh. Even with this houserule, a 3-shift evoker can one-shot Sue the zombie T-Rex. And the Laws don't apply to nonhumans.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Tedronai on March 14, 2011, 04:00:55 AM
I think the problem there is with the statline of Sue, and similar 'creatures' (in that a zombie T-Rex, et al, really should probably have some significant resistance, if not immunity, to mental stress), not with the evocation attack mechanics when dealing with mental stress tracks
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: MijRai on March 14, 2011, 05:46:47 AM
A mental Take-Out doesn't have to be full incapacitation. It could be loss of control, turning into a bloodthirsty monster nothing can reason with.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 14, 2011, 06:00:00 AM
@MijRai: But the attacker gets to narrate the takeout.

@Tedronai: That's a good point. But I don't want to add Conviction and Discipline to the list of necessary combat skills. I like that you can make a mentally weak but physically threatening monster in this game.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Tedronai on March 14, 2011, 06:08:55 AM
Actually, what I was intending was something more along the lines of toughness powers for mental stress being handed out to things like demons, zombies, and other entities of sufficiently alien or resilient mentalities
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: MijRai on March 14, 2011, 06:10:30 AM
@MijRai: But the attacker gets to narrate the takeout.

And the attacker is in all likelyhood an NPC. Unless you are letting mind-rapists run arouund in your game. Besides, the character/NPC itself has some say in the take out as well.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Eunomiac on March 14, 2011, 06:19:53 PM
Metagaming solutions aside, it does seem to cast light on an apparent oversight in the rules: If evoking for mental/social stress was such an easy way of side-stepping physical immunities, then we'd have seen many more examples of this in the books.

There are a few ways to house rule this that might make thematic sense:


But there are plenty of ways to work within the rules, too (though I agree that some changes need to be made to prevent a Minor Talent from being able to drop Sue with a wave of the hand, even in theory):

Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: sinker on March 14, 2011, 07:50:10 PM
I think it's really important to remember that different types of stress aren't always appropriate in all types of conflict. Mental stress is most often used to reflect your emotional well-being. Social stress is intended to represent your reputation and status. To use sue as an example, sue is an animal. Sure animals have emotions. Anyone who has owned a pet knows that they get depressed, or stressed or afraid. If an animal is depressed it's less likely to start a fight. If an animal gets depressed in the middle of a fight it's not going to stop defending itself or run against it's predatory nature. For that matter Sue could care less about her reputation. Neither of these tracks are going to effect her in physical conflict.

Fear is the one thing I could see effecting physical combat (just as intimidation is the only applicable way for a mortal to deal mental stress in combat) but even then something's fear response is not always flight. As has been pointed out the person/thing that gets taken out does have some say in how they are taken out by the clause that it has to be within their nature. If it's not within sue's nature to run in fear then she's not going to, though I suppose that just means she get's to retreat in a different way.

To get back to the original post though, I use SotC's spin rules (add an aspect instead of just a +1 to the next action).
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 16, 2011, 06:01:39 AM
Spin. I use that too. Why didn't I remember it?

Anyway, this mental stress thing is clearly not settled. I'll just list every proposed solution in the guide, with a short note explaining the issue.

And now I'm going to summarize the vehicle combat rules.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 16, 2011, 06:41:05 AM
And here's the summary. Actually, it's more like a revision since I changed some things. Feedback is mandatory. (Or at least strongly encouraged.)

Vehicle Combat Rules Summary:

             The following rules govern the use of vehicles in combat. In general, they treat vehicles as equipment rather than characters. When one character rides another, a similar but not identical ruleset will be used. (That still needs to be written. Shouldn't be hard.)

             Vehicles, like characters, are located inside zones. Characters who share a zone with a vehicle may use their action to enter that vehicle, acquiring an appropriate aspect in doing so. This requires no roll unless some force (locked door, uncooperative driver, etc) is preventing the character’s entry.
 
             Some vehicles are large enough to contain entire zones. This does not significantly affect the rules that govern them.

             Characters in vehicles are either drivers or passengers. Each vehicle may only have one driver, but the maximum number of passengers depends on the vehicle. The driver must take a supplemental action each turn in order to operate the vehicle. If he does not, then he becomes a passenger and the vehicle has no driver. Simply ignore any rules that reference the driver in that case, or assume a value of 0 for his skill when that is not possible.

             Characters cannot move while inside a vehicle. However, the driver of a vehicle may move the vehicle a number of zones equal to the result of a Driving skill check each time he takes an action. When a vehicle moves, everyone inside moves with it.

             Vehicles provide armour and can be used as weapons like other equipment. The armour applies to everyone inside, but the vehicle can only be used as a weapon by the driver. Attacks with vehicles use the Driving skill.

             All those inside a vehicle have their skills modified by the Driving skill of the driver. In addition, the driver can substitute his Driving skill for the defence skill of anyone inside the vehicle against melee attacks made by those outside the vehicle.

             Each vehicle has two statistics not possessed by most equipment. These are Durability and Maneuverability. Maneuverability modifies the driver’s Driving skill for all purposes. Durability dictates the difficulty to hex (or otherwise sabotage) a vehicle and that vehicle’s stress capacity. Some vehicles also possess the equivalent of Toughness powers and/or innate armour.

             Vehicles can be attacked just like characters. They defend against attacks with their driver’s Driving skill. They take stress and consequences just like characters. The effects of a vehicle’s destruction upon its inhabitants are highly variable and should be determined on a case-by-case basis.

             Living mounts may also be treated as vehicles. Use Survival instead of Driving in that case. A mount’s Maneuverability is equal to its Athletics skill, and its Durability is equal to its Endurance skill.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: LCDarkwood on March 16, 2011, 08:59:52 PM
Anyway, this mental stress thing is clearly not settled.

Hey, 'Phrax? What sort of evo did you envision would be able to cause mental stress in the RAW? Spirit's really the only thing that might qualify, and spirit attacks are pretty explicitly limited to force applications, usually in the form of telekinetic pushing and solid shields. Veils are an edge case, but they also operate on purely physical principles - bending light and whatnot. It's not a mental whammy.

So, I'm confused as to why a house ruling on this would be necessary. Which isn't to say it's not. I'm just curious.

To contribute to the thread, I have a house rule that I sometimes use, sometimes don't, about fate point transfers in a conflict. RAW states that if you spend a fate point to use someone else's aspect to their detriment, the fate point goes to them at the end of the exchange. Sometimes I'll wait until the end of the conflict to dole those out. It's just a slight change in flow and creates a grittier atmosphere - yeah, you're going to get paid out, but not until after you've gotten your ass kicked.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Tedronai on March 16, 2011, 09:04:24 PM
Hey, 'Phrax? What sort of evo did you envision would be able to cause mental stress in the RAW? Spirit's really the only thing that might qualify, and spirit attacks are pretty explicitly limited to force applications, usually in the form of telekinetic pushing and solid shields. Veils are an edge case, but they also operate on purely physical principles - bending light and whatnot. It's not a mental whammy.

So, I'm confused as to why a house ruling on this would be necessary. Which isn't to say it's not. I'm just curious.

To contribute to the thread, I have a house rule that I sometimes use, sometimes don't, about fate point transfers in a conflict. RAW states that if you spend a fate point to use someone else's aspect to their detriment, the fate point goes to them at the end of the exchange. Sometimes I'll wait until the end of the conflict to dole those out. It's just a slight change in flow and creates a grittier atmosphere - yeah, you're going to get paid out, but not until after you've gotten your ass kicked.

Harry's notes in the margin of YS255
"Plus mental
magic, emotions,
ghosts – that
sort of stuff.
Most of that’s
beyond me,
though—I’m
all about the
force effects
end of things."
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 16, 2011, 09:26:58 PM
Spirit, definitely. Some forms of sponsored magic, too. Other elements on a case-by-case basis. Someone brought up Harry's "ball of sunshine" trick when this was discussed before.

And thanks for the houserule. I might start using it myself, since it always kinda bugged me that players got penalized for using others people's aspects instead of their own.

Anyway, I still need feedback on the vehicle rules.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: LCDarkwood on March 16, 2011, 09:35:46 PM
He says, "Spirit also covers..." That doesn't necessarily mean all that stuff can be done with evocation by default. I mean, there's no evo spell to launch a ghost at someone. The paragraph tells you how Spirit evo manifests - as the bending or manipulation of light and kinetic force.

Behind the scenes, we happened to know about Spirit's association with other kinds of magic, so it became a marginalia comment. Other elements have similar associations with different kinds of magic that reach beyond the boundaries of evo. We didn't know as much about those at the time of publication.

My point being, if there's a house rule to be had here, it's in exploring Spirit/Mind as an evo element, rather than Spirit/Force, which is what the book describes. I'm not opposed to that, though I find the implications hella scary. The inline text never tells you that you can use Spirit to do mental stress, though. So that shouldn't be a concern, though I recognize that clarification is always good if you feel you need to make it.

Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: ways and means on March 16, 2011, 09:43:33 PM
Even if you argue sprit does not allow mental attacks some sponsored magic for example Kemmlerite Necromancy (
(click to show/hide)
) and Fairy Magic (Enchantment and compulsion) certainly would.  
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 16, 2011, 09:50:28 PM
Seems that this is even more ambigous than I thought. Maybe I'm not actually houseruling: maybe I'm just ruling.

Whatever. This'll get a paragraph or two in the guide, explaining what a mess it is.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: LCDarkwood on March 16, 2011, 09:53:31 PM
Yeah, sponsored magic definitely does allow mental whammies. That's part of what makes it really damn scary and often Lawbreaking.

Which is, consequently, the reason why we don't see a lot of it in the books - they're about a White Council wizard who, for the most part, upholds the Laws. Bad guys use mental whammies on people all the time. (See White Court Vampires, Victor Sells, Corpsetaker, etc etc ad nauseum)

So I guess that's my issue - mind magic *is* an easy proof against Toughness. It's supposed to be. Targeting that cuts out a large part of what makes that cool and scary.

If there's a house rule to be had here that better fits the setting, I think it should revolve around expanding the function of Toughness, not limiting the function of sponsored magic. Just sayin'.

(Edit: I kind of like the idea of advanced wizards or True Faith folks being able to take mental-related Toughness as a power, "fortress of the mind" kind of shit.)
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on March 16, 2011, 10:29:26 PM
It looks great! I just had a few comments which came to mind, and all of these are pretty minor suggestions.

Vehicle Combat Rules Summary:
Vehicles, like characters, are located inside zones. Characters who share a zone with a vehicle may use their action to enter that vehicle, acquiring an appropriate aspect in doing so. This requires no roll unless some force (locked door, uncooperative driver, etc) is preventing the character’s entry.

I think a vehicle - any vehicle except one that is obviously open, like a horse or a motorcycle - should automatically be considered its own Zone. Trying to get into most any vehicle requires *some* finagling unless it is already open (like a van door), and this would be anything from a 0- to 2-shift Zone Border. Having to use keys, having to jump into a convertible - any of these things are a nontrivial time sink when bullets are flying. But: this could be more detail than is appropriate for a summary.

Characters cannot move while inside a vehicle. However, the driver of a vehicle may move the vehicle a number of zones equal to the result of a Driving skill check each time he takes an action. When a vehicle moves, everyone inside moves with it.

I think we should specify what specifically "cannot move" entails. Passengers certainly can't move the vehicle along, we can all agree. But shifting seats happens in fiction all the time, and if the vehicle is large enough to have multiple zones (or one really big zone) then common sense indicates some moving is appropriate.

All those inside a vehicle have their skills modified by the Driving skill of the driver. In addition, the driver can substitute his Driving skill for the defence skill of anyone inside the vehicle against melee attacks made by those outside the vehicle.

We may want to specify that all skills are Limited by the Driving skill of the driver (not simply Modified). In intervehicular combat, I can see the opposite: a good Pilot/Driver can help line up shots. But if the rules are to represent vehicles and their handling on a personal combat level, I think passengers are unilaterally going to have their skills Limited by the Driver.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 16, 2011, 11:24:12 PM
Thanks for the feedback, devonapple. If these rules pass muster with you, then I feel a whole lot more comfortable using them.

I'm a bit hesitant to make the vast majority of vehicles contain zones. The reason is that it makes it impossible to make melee attacks against people inside a vehicle unless you are in the vehicle yourself. Which is appropriate if you're on the back of an elephant or in the middle of a bus, but not so much if you're in a normal car.

I'll change "requires no roll unless..." to "may or may not require a roll." As for the time required to open doors, etc, the action that you have to use to get in should (usually) cover that. Note that you can't just sprint into a vehicle by these rules. You have to take a seperate action.

I'll replace "cannot move while..." with a more detailed note that takes into account large vehicles that contain multiple zones.

You make a good point about Limiting vs Modifying. On the other hand, I want to give really good drivers a benefit. I'll have to think about it.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: UmbraLux on March 16, 2011, 11:28:29 PM
Anyway, this mental stress thing is clearly not settled. I'll just list every proposed solution in the guide, with a short note explaining the issue.
My take:  Mental stress can be caused by evocations but generally requires some set up.  Mechanically, it's maneuver created aspects used in a subsequent attack.

So a wizard might use an air evocation to have the victim start hearing things...then use Deceit to drive someone over the edge while tagging "I'm Hearing Voices" and "They Say Awful Things".  With an extreme consequence, the victim is now obeying voices only he hears.  Lesser consequences may simply make him Jumpy or Paranoid.  

I do agree with the problems surrounding simple assaults on the mind.  
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on March 16, 2011, 11:39:28 PM
I'm a bit hesitant to make the vast majority of vehicles contain zones. The reason is that it makes it impossible to make melee attacks against people inside a vehicle unless you are in the vehicle yourself. Which is appropriate if you're on the back of an elephant or in the middle of a bus, but not so much if you're in a normal car.

You make a good point. I'm alright with not making each car a de facto Zone, but it should be harder to hit someone in a vehicle. People always try to shoot or stick blades through cars, it is true, but the Durability gets in the way. A Zone Border seemed the simplest way to run it.

Which creates less homework, do you think?
A) vehicles aren't automatically Zones unto themselves, but their Durability acts as an Armor Block against all attacks coming from outside the car
B) all vehicles count as a sub-Zone within a larger Zone, but melee attacks targeting the vehicle from the containing Zone are allowed, though they must overcome the Zone Border of the vehicle's Durability
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Tedronai on March 16, 2011, 11:46:26 PM
A) vehicles aren't automatically Zones unto themselves, but their Durability acts as an Armor Block against all attacks coming from outside the car

That might be a bit high for most vehicles.  Perhaps 1/2 their Durability as Armour, similar to shifts of power from evocation-based armour
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 17, 2011, 12:56:53 AM
Vehicles do provide armour. The armour rating is often greater against melee than against ranged. I figured that that was enough.

The armour rating is not directly related to the durability of a vehicle, although more durable vehicles tend to provide better armour.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: crusher_bob on March 17, 2011, 09:41:31 AM
Outside of Hollywood, most vehicles don't provide much protection at all against bullets.  So I'd expect non armored cars to only provide armor 1 or so.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: ryanshowseason2 on March 17, 2011, 01:34:12 PM
Outside of Hollywood, most vehicles don't provide much protection at all against bullets.  So I'd expect non armored cars to only provide armor 1 or so.

This

Windows are fragile. a well placed knee can break a windshield, a baseball bat can shatter side windows with ease. I've no experience with a sword but I imagine similarly easy results considering the weight of metal.

This is all very weapon specific. Take into consideration the difficulty of breaking a window with a pocket knife the weapon damage means nothing to that window and even less your skill with weapons. Therefore I find it appropriate to rule that window barriers must be broken with a might roll instead of a weapons roll. This and weapon damage should be generated by the gm to be appropriate.

With this also said trying to effectively use bludgeoning weapons like a bat on an occupant of a vehicle is an awkward endeavor, there is no room to swing. Long pointy blades have no problem doing the stabby stabby though. Some kind of "zone aspect" seems appropriate here, but you can perhaps let players try and declare that one on their own.

Lastly shooting a target as mobile as a vehicle is sometimes an effort of futility. If the driver is smart and madly swinging around with no pattern... good luck on shooting the occupants with any accuracy. There should be a huge detriment on this if the car isn't motionless or making a straight beeline.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: ryanshowseason2 on March 17, 2011, 01:59:05 PM
Weapon 4+ evocations are always considered lethal force

I'm not sure I agree with this if the evocation is described correctly. A few examples some my players made up a few of my own.
A heat exhaustion spell or heat wave spell. Or even an enfeeble evo. Potentially lethal yes, always lethal no.

A biomancy spell to do nasty things, say cause  extreme cramps or pain. This only causes pain no actual damage to the victim. nastiness? to the max? Lethality? 0.

Electricity spells, I think Harry even says this in the books by making it high voltage but low current basically a tazer.

Irritating acid water evocation. Acidic compound designed to cause pain to epidermis or interior of human flesh but not destroy it. Weapon level indicates how much pain.

An epic level magic pepper spray spell. I don't know why but I find this one funny. Stress inducing? Hell yes! death inducing? Uh no.

Remember we're inflicting stress and consequences these don't necessarily have to cause lethal harm. I admit its not easy to come up with ideas for this sort of spell, but I prefer to reward players who do come up with something.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: bibliophile20 on March 17, 2011, 02:21:26 PM
Of course, what's merely irritating to one person is lethal to another; allergies, for example.  Or the heat wave spell--I wouldn't use that in Miami where retirees might be in the line of fire.  Or kids.  Or babies. 

*snort*  In my first D&D game, the wizard thought nothing of using Evard's Black Tentacles in civilian areas, even if he didn't have total LOS to the target zone.  Ended up killing the baker's entire family to capture one heavily wounded assassin.  Never got called out on it. 

Point I'm trying to make is, using magic around civilians is risky, and I think that the GM would be completely within their rights to say that certain members of the crowd--especially in places like restaurants and movie theaters--have aspects like "Breathing Canned Oxygen"; "Hypertension", "My Doctor Said To Avoid Excitement," "Scrawny Little Kid" and so forth. 
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: ryanshowseason2 on March 17, 2011, 03:32:12 PM
Of course, what's merely irritating to one person is lethal to another; allergies, for example.  Or the heat wave spell--I wouldn't use that in Miami where retirees might be in the line of fire.  Or kids.  Or babies. 

*snort*  In my first D&D game, the wizard thought nothing of using Evard's Black Tentacles in civilian areas, even if he didn't have total LOS to the target zone.  Ended up killing the baker's entire family to capture one heavily wounded assassin.  Never got called out on it. 

Point I'm trying to make is, using magic around civilians is risky, and I think that the GM would be completely within their rights to say that certain members of the crowd--especially in places like restaurants and movie theaters--have aspects like "Breathing Canned Oxygen"; "Hypertension", "My Doctor Said To Avoid Excitement," "Scrawny Little Kid" and so forth. 

In public? Sure. I was thinking more in the realm of deliberate combat and wanting to take an opponent out without killing them in a magical way.

Still though its within my right to have an npc be severely allergic to magic pepper spray. But having it happen every time is just as abusive on my part. If anyone has ever watched inuyasha (which I regret having done so) Every time a certain character wanted to use a ridiculous technique called wind tunnel (which was basically a black hole in the char's hand) inexplicably "naraku's poison bees" would show up and he'd have to stop since bee poison inside the black hole apparently caused him harm. Never mind he could suck entire houses into his hand and that didn't hurt. Point is though the char used it like once and then every subsequent episode had 10 seconds of stock footage of these bees so that he couldn't use it ever again. Considering this goes on for like 100 episodes... I don't want to do that to players.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 17, 2011, 11:13:42 PM
This discussion has been had before, and I don't think that there's anything to be gained from having it again here.

Personally, I don't use that houserule. But some people do, so it's here.

Anyway, I think that the vehicle rules are more or less done. They just need one final revision. If there are no further contributions/objections, I'll edit the first post to add them (and some other stuff).

The exact armour rating of a car is up to the GM and players of the game that it shows up in.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on March 17, 2011, 11:39:42 PM
I'm not sure I agree with this if the evocation is described correctly. A few examples some my players made up a few of my own.

We aren't obligated to agree or come to a consensus. This is a compilation of proposed House Rules, and as long as Sanctaphrax makes sure that is clear, then it shouldn't be a problem. I myself would not be using that particular rule in my own games, either, but it is an option which may make the game more enjoyable/realistic for some players.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 19, 2011, 09:28:53 PM
I decided that adding this to the first post would be unnecessary clutter. So the (hopefully) final vehicle rules go here.

Vehicle Combat Rules Summary:

             The following rules govern the use of vehicles in combat.  
             Vehicles, like characters, are located inside zones. Characters who share a zone with a vehicle may use their action to enter that vehicle, acquiring an appropriate aspect in doing so. This may or may not require a roll, depending on the circumstances.
Some vehicles are large enough to contain entire zones. This does not significantly affect the rules that govern them.
             Characters in vehicles are either drivers or passengers. Each vehicle may only have one driver, but the maximum number of passengers depends on the vehicle. The driver must take a supplemental action each turn in order to operate the vehicle. If he does not, then he becomes a passenger and the vehicle has no driver. Simply ignore any rules that reference the driver in that case, or assume a value of 0 for his skill when that is not possible.
             Characters inside a vehicle must remain inside that vehicle unless they take an action to leave it (and remove the relevant aspect). Since vehicles have set locations, this often means that a character inside of a vehicle is stuck in their zone. However, the driver of a vehicle may move the vehicle a number of zones equal to the result of a Driving skill check each time he takes an action. When a vehicle moves, everyone inside moves with it.
             Vehicles provide armour and can be used as weapons like other equipment. The armour applies to everyone inside, but the vehicle can only be used as a weapon by the driver. Attacks with vehicles use the Driving skill.
             All those inside a vehicle may have their skills limited by the Driving skill of the driver. GMs should use their discretion when determining if a skill is modified or not. In addition, the driver can substitute his Driving skill for the defence skill of anyone inside the vehicle against melee attacks made by those outside the vehicle.
             Each vehicle has two statistics not possessed by most equipment. These are Durability and Maneuverability. Maneuverability modifies the driver’s Driving skill for all purposes. Durability dictates the difficulty to hex (or otherwise sabotage) a vehicle and that vehicle’s stress capacity. Some vehicles also possess the equivalent of Toughness powers and/or innate armour.
             Vehicles can be attacked just like characters. They defend against attacks with their driver’s Driving skill. They take stress and consequences just like characters. The effects of a vehicle’s destruction upon its inhabitants are highly variable and should be determined on a case-by-case basis.
            Living mounts may also be treated as vehicles. Use Survival instead of Driving in that case. A mount’s Maneuverability is equal to its Athletics skill, and its Durability is equal to its Endurance skill.
             If a character’s mount is another character, then things are simpler. A character must take an action to mount/dismount from another character and so gain/lose a relevant aspect, as above. They cannot move as long as they are mounted, as above. And they may substitute their mount’s Athletics for their own when defending against attacks. Ignore everything else printed above.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Tedronai on March 19, 2011, 09:49:31 PM
It seems strange to me that the Driver's skill would modify an occupant's Endurance
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 20, 2011, 01:46:41 AM
Point taken. I'll edit it so that it only modifies rolls.

Also, I meant to write limited instead of modified. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Tedronai on March 20, 2011, 04:31:54 AM
Point taken. I'll edit it so that it only modifies rolls.

Even then, Endurance is occasionally rolled as a defense skill, and poor driving should rarely be sufficient to shake, say, the Fist of God's Faith (by way of limiting conviction).
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 20, 2011, 09:25:20 PM
Endurance as a defence might sometimes be affected by driving and sometimes might not. I can think of examples for both. Same goes for faith, in the situations where you'd roll it. And so on for Deceit, Intimidation, Rapport, etc.

Obviously, the GM has to exercise a bit of discretion. I'll add a note saying so.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 02, 2011, 05:56:24 AM
Well, this is going slower than I had hoped. I've got no-one to blame but myself. I also have no-one with the right to blame me but myself, so it works out alright.

A couple more houserules:

You can take consequences to convert a failed roll into a successful one if the margin of error was less than the consequence's value.
Some weapons have AP ratings, letting them ignore (AP rating) points of armour.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: sinker on April 02, 2011, 06:05:40 AM
You can take consequences to convert a failed roll into a successful one if the margin of error was less than the consequence's value.

I don't think this has been mentioned (except maybe as part of the summoning system) but as a variation on this kind of thing, one could take a negative aspect on a piece of equipment or similar in order to make up for a failed resources roll.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Tedronai on April 02, 2011, 06:09:16 AM
You can take consequences to convert a failed roll into a successful one if the margin of error was less than the consequence's value.

Might want to amend that to 'less than or equal to'
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: sinker on April 12, 2011, 02:27:42 AM
Something just occurred to me in play the other day. Reactive shields. Allowing a wizard to use a rote block spell as a single defense without casting it in advance.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 24, 2011, 07:27:23 AM
First post edited. Now, for summoning:

Summoning Rules Summary:

The rules as written do not really allow players to summon minions. Summoning is basically just a thaumaturgical contacts roll. But some players want to play summoners and golem-crafters, so these rules were made for them. There have been several appraches to this, and this is only one of them.

Summoning and binding or conjuring and animating a creature is handled as a single ritual. The complexity of that ritual is as follows:

1. Start with a complexity of 0.
2. Add 2 to the complexity of the ritual for every 5 skill points possessed by the creature,
3. Add 1 to the complexity of the ritual for every point of refresh worth of powers or stunts possessed by the creature.
4. Add to the complexity based on the skill cap of the creature as described by the list below:
5. The base duration of the ritual is one day. For every time increment that it is increased, add 1 to the complexity. For every time increment that it is decreased, subtract 1 from the complexity.
6. Select a behaviour pattern from the list below and multiply the complexity by the factor indicated.
7. You may have a summoned creature come into existence with one or more aspects selected by the GM. For each such aspect, decrease the complexity by 2. You do not receive a Fate Point the first time each of these aspects is compelled.
8. If summoning multiple creatures of the same type with a single ritual, each additional creature costs less than the original. The second creature costs one half its normal complexity, the third through fifth cost one quarter, and the sixth onward cost one eighth. Round normally.

Please note that the above is intended as a guide only. Using it to the letter will give a massive advantage to people who know how to minmax. Feel free to adjust complexity costs based on the real value of a creature.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: BumblingBear on April 24, 2011, 10:44:34 AM
How about my supernatural strength throwing rules?
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Belial666 on April 24, 2011, 02:06:25 PM
Would it be possible to set up an imprisoning circle, summon an uncontrolled creature in it and then mindrape it into doing your will?  Mechanically, using wardings or bindings for the prison, the summoning for the creature and then a psychomancy/ectomancy spell for the mindrape.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 24, 2011, 10:54:35 PM
Thank you, BumblingBear. I knew I was forgetting something,

And yes, Belial, that is possible. I like that kind of lateral thinking. Just remember that such a process can go wrong in many different ways. It's a lot less safe than the normal ritual.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Belial666 on April 25, 2011, 12:58:21 AM
Interesting. BTW, I still want to do the Lord of Nightmares spell from DnD. The spell goes as follows;


1) You use your own body as a bridge to the plane of nightmares and madness.
2) You use that connection to summon an eldritch horror from that plane that replaces your mind and body instead of acting as a separate creature.
3) The eldritch horror is free to act as it pleases for a brief time; you don't control it and, as you don't exist for the spell's duration, you can't do anything else either.
4) When the spell duration runs out or the eldritch horror is defeated, you reappear. You don't suffer any ill effects that happened in your absence but the eldritch horror may have employed any items and/or resources of yours at hand and leaves you in the location it last was in and having to contend with the consequences of its actions.
5) ???
6) Profit!


How could that be modeled in your summoning system? Lord of Nightmares is a fun little spell and some wizards may feel that having an Eldritch Horror mutilate your enemies is good, despite the collateral damagge. Sometimes even due to the collateral damage itself. :)
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 25, 2011, 03:11:12 AM
Summoning the Dream Larva is easy enough. However, the bit where it replaces you is not. I'd be inclined to treat it as a defect, since the downside of being replaced will usually outweigh the upside. Then take a bunch more defects to represent the havoc that the uncontrolled Dream Larva is going to wreck above and beyond the normal uncontrolled creature stuff.

Does that sound good?
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 25, 2011, 04:09:51 AM
Other summoning system:

1. Start with a complexity of 0.
2. Add enough shifts to take out the creature through it's best stress track. Ignore toughness powers. Depending on the power of the creature and its significance to the plot, the maximum level of consequence that the summoner must overcome will vary. As a rule of thumb, a summoner must generally overcome the highest level of consequence that the creature he's summoning will take in his service.
3. Add 1 to the complexity of the ritual for every point of refresh worth of powers or stunts possessed by the creature.
4. Add complexity equal to the creature's skill cap.
5. The base duration of the ritual is one day. For every time increment that it is increased, add 1 to the complexity. For every time increment that it is decreased, subtract 1 from the complexity.
6. You may have a summoned creature come into existence with one or more positive aspects. For each such aspect, increase the complexity by 2. The creature may tag each such aspect once without spending a fate point.
7. You may have a summoned creature come into existence with one or more negative aspects. For each such aspect, decrease the complexity by 2. You do not receive a Fate Point the first time each of these aspects is compelled.
8. You may have a summoned creature come into existence with one or more positive qualities. For each such quality, increase the complexity by 9. These qualities have a constant positive effect on the behaviour or abilities of a creature. Everything positive about a creature that doesn't fit into one of the previous categories goes here.
9. You may have a summoned creature come into existence with one or more negative qualities. For each such quality, decrease the complexity by 9. These qualities have a constant negative effect on the behaviour or abilities of a creature. Everything negative about a creature that doesn't fit into one of the previous categories goes here.
10. If summoning multiple creatures of the same type with a single ritual, each additional creature costs less than the original. The second creature costs one half its normal complexity, the third through fifth cost one quarter, and the sixth onward cost one eighth. Round normally.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: citadel97501 on April 25, 2011, 05:27:24 AM
Sanctaphrax, perhaps it would be helpful to have an example summoning spell in place such as Binder casting a spell to summon his minions before the
(click to show/hide)

I just think example of systems are useful to see if they work for establish things that happen during a game?
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 25, 2011, 06:25:06 AM
Method 1:

Binder wants to create a horde of minions. He chooses Mouth-Handed Men as his minions. Mouth-Handed Men have 10 skill points, a skill cap of Good, and 2 points worth of powers. Binder just wants some uncomplicated violence done, so he chooses the Single-Function Robot behavious pattern.

That gives a complexity per minion of ((4 for skills) + (2 for powers) + (3 for skill cap)) x (1 for behaviour). That's 9. But Binder doesn't need these guys for long: just a few hours. That's two steps down the time chart from one day, so it reduces the complexity by 2 to 7. Binder sees no need to give his minions any potentially-problematic GM-selected aspects.

Binder could just summon his minions one by one with his base complexity. But he's not that patient.

So he decides to summon 10 in one go. That's 7 complexity for the first Mouth-Handed Man, 3.5 for the next 4, and 1.75 for the other 5.

That's a final complexity of 29.75, rounded up to 30. A lot, but doable for a pro like Binder.

EDIT: Corrected math.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: BumblingBear on April 25, 2011, 07:25:10 AM
My hat's off to you for compiling all this stuff, btw. :)
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: sinker on April 25, 2011, 07:50:28 PM
Summoning the Dream Larva is easy enough. However, the bit where it replaces you is not. I'd be inclined to treat it as a defect, since the downside of being replaced will usually outweigh the upside. Then take a bunch more defects to represent the havoc that the uncontrolled Dream Larva is going to wreck above and beyond the normal uncontrolled creature stuff.

Also sounds like taking one's self out of a scene for some benefit. There are pre-existing rules for that though they'd need to be tweaked to fit the situation.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on April 25, 2011, 08:40:05 PM
I sent some comments by message, Sanctaphrax! Looks pretty good overall.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 25, 2011, 09:55:17 PM
@BumblingBear: Thanks. For some reason, I like to hear stuff like that from faceless people over the internet.

@sinker: Do you mean the part where you skip a scene for +1 thaumaturgy complexity? I'm not really how to tweak that for this situation.

@devonapple: Making the suggested changes now.

I'm not sure if the number of consequences that the summoner must overcome when using method 2 should determine the number of consequences that a summoned creature will take. It's a good idea, but it isn't what I had in mind. It was intended as a way for the GM to regulate the difficulty.

I'd love to explain how the persistent qualities referred to in steps 8 and 9 of method 2 work, but I don't really understand them either. That's more UmbraLux's thing than mine.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on April 25, 2011, 10:06:09 PM
I'm not sure if the number of consequences that the summoner must overcome when using method 2 should determine the number of consequences that a summoned creature will take. It's a good idea, but it isn't what I had in mind. It was intended as a way for the GM to regulate the difficulty.

Like I said, I know that was from one of the three methods, and it explicitly was intended to reflect how much "fight" a summoned creature had in it, by pre-determining the consequences it would take, but I also seem to recall it was just an option, and not an integral component. That definitely doesn't belong in Method 1, as the summoning modifiers there are a good determiner of how much "fight" the summoned creature brought to the table.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 25, 2011, 10:13:45 PM
I'll add a note saying that a summoner must generally overcome the level of consequence that a creature will take in his service.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on April 25, 2011, 10:20:37 PM
I'll add a note saying that a summoner must generally overcome the level of consequence that a creature will take in his service.

Should the guide explicitly suggest that creatures with Recovery powers should automatically accept some level of Consequences, just to make use of their Recovery abilities? Or should that be left up to the GM to adjudicate?
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 25, 2011, 10:24:16 PM
Method 2 example:

Binder wants to create a horde of minions. He chooses Mouth-Handed Men as his minions. Mouth-Handed Men have a skill cap of Good and 2 points worth of powers. Their best stress track is three boxes long. Binder sees no need to add any positive or negative aspects or qualities.

The GM decides that minor minions like this will not take any consequences at all.

That gives a complexity per minion of (3 for skill cap) + (2 for powers) + (4 to take out best stress track). That's 9. But Binder doesn't need these guys for long: just a few hours. That's two steps down the time chart from one day, so it reduces the complexity by 2 to 7.

Binder could just summon his minions one by one with his base complexity. But he's not that patient.

So he decides to summon 10 in one go. That's 7 complexity for the first Mouth-Handed Man, 3.5 for the next 4, and 1.75 for the other 5.

That's a final complexity of 29.75, which rounds up to 30. A lot, but doable for a pro like Binder.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 25, 2011, 10:26:09 PM
Good question. I'm inclined to leave it up to the GM so that I don't have to deal with it.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on April 25, 2011, 10:30:27 PM
That's a final complexity of 29.75, which rounds up to 30. A lot, but doable for a pro like Binder.

Both methods result in the same Complexity!
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 26, 2011, 03:17:56 AM
Yes they do. By pure luck, believe it or not.

It's quite heartening, actually. It means that the two methods are at least somewhat balanced against each other.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Tedronai on April 26, 2011, 03:22:40 AM
Yes they do. By pure luck, believe it or not.

It's quite heartening, actually. It means that the two methods are at least somewhat balanced against each other.

Just because they happen to coincide at a single point does not indicate that they are 'balanced'. (not saying that they're not, just that that is not an indication of such)
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 26, 2011, 03:28:03 AM
"Somewhat balanced against each other."

That was a major concern during the development of these systems. They would return wildly different responses, so to see them roughly equal now is very nice.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Tedronai on April 26, 2011, 03:54:54 AM
"Somewhat balanced against each other."

That was a major concern during the development of these systems. They would return wildly different responses, so to see them roughly equal now is very nice.

At a single point.  Seems to be setting a rather low bar.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 26, 2011, 03:57:00 AM
Hence the word somewhat.

Don't deny me my small victories.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: sinker on April 26, 2011, 06:54:41 AM
@sinker: Do you mean the part where you skip a scene for +1 thaumaturgy complexity? I'm not really how to tweak that for this situation.

Was referring partly to that and also partly to the concept that someone can be compelled to be out of a scene (I.E. in exchange for a Fate point). Although isn't it a +2 to complexity? I'm actually asking the question as my memory is hazy and I don't have the book in front of me. The thoughts I had as far as tweaking is that perhaps one of those methods could be used in conjunction with others to achieve the desired effect. Seems like if we only use those methods then the downsides waay outweigh the upsides, so I was thinking maybe you take yourself out of the scene ala a compel or as part of the preparation step and then model a lot of the collateral damage with the defects then you might get a similar spell to the one mentioned earlier by Belial.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: BumblingBear on April 26, 2011, 02:33:26 PM
@BumblingBear: Thanks. For some reason, I like to hear stuff like that from faceless people over the internet.



Hey! I have a picture!  And youtube videos.

:)
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: evileeyore on April 26, 2011, 04:31:41 PM
Hence the word somewhat.

Don't deny me my small victories.
(http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/picture.php?albumid=32&pictureid=4062)

So how about running the numbers with a few other setups?

Like one really Powerful Demon, one weak but very tenacious (lots of consequences), and both with high and low Loyalty and Functionality scores? Do they still match up? (yes I are too lazy to learn your system and test-break it right now  :-[)

Powerful Uncontrolled Animal Demon
Powerful Loyal Animal Demon
Powerful Uncontrolled Specialist Demon
Powerful Jeeves Demon


Weak 6 Stress Track Uncontrolled Animal Demon
Weak 6 Stress Track Loyal Animal Demon
Weak 6 Stress Track Uncontrolled Specialist Demon
Weak 6 Stress Track Jeeves Demon
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 28, 2011, 01:29:20 AM
@BumblingBear: Wait, is that you in your profile picture? And where can I find those videos?

@evileeyore: Alright, let's give it a try.

The powerful being will be the Demon Lord from reply #84 of the Generic NPC thread.

The weak one will be the Poisonous Demon from reply #64 of that same thread.

The Demon Lord's base complexity before modifiers with Method #1 is 88 (26 skill points, 14 skill cap, 48 refresh).

The Poisonous Demon's base complexity before modifiers with Method #1 is 14 (6 skill points, 3 skill cap, 5 refresh).

The Demon Lord's base complexity before modifiers with Method #2 is 86 (5 stress, 7 skill cap, 48 refresh, 8 mild consequences, 4 moderate consequence, 6 severe consequence, 8 extreme consequence). This is slightly ambigous, because the Demon Lord has True Shapeshifting and could get more or less consequences by shuffling his skills.

The Poisonous Demon's base complexity before modifiers with Method #2 is 15 (5 stress, 3 skill cap, 5 refresh, 2 mild consequence). You could pump this up to 19 by deciding that the Poisonous Demon goes to moderate consequences. Method #1 unfortunately has no way to simulate that effect.

So they look pretty even right now. But that'll change once we start incorporating modifiers.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 28, 2011, 01:53:21 AM
Duration, defects, and multiple summonings will be ignored for the purposes of this analysis because the systems are the same in both methods.

With Method #1, the Demon Lord costs 44 complexity if you don't want to bother with control and 264 complexity if you want him to be your Jeeves. Animal vs Specialist is just flavour.

With Method #1, the Poisonous Demon costs 7 complexity if you don't want to bother with control and 52 complexity if you want him to be your Jeeves. Animal vs Specialist is just flavour.

With Method #2, everything is very ambigous. Sorry, but I don't really understand the quality system. But on the upside, you can add qualities to make Specialist and Animal different.

Method #2 is not my work. It's UmbraLux's. I summarized it, but that requires no real understanding.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: BumblingBear on April 28, 2011, 02:05:25 AM
@BumblingBear: Wait, is that you in your profile picture? And where can I find those videos?




I mostly do weapon reviews or weapon information videos.

This is one of my most popular so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ys_CEoEpk4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ys_CEoEpk4)

I also have LARP videos and such too.  Like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcaUGGrk3t4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcaUGGrk3t4)

I haven't made any new vids for a while.

As soon as:

A. I finally get all the boxes unpacked in my new house and

B.  My gf figures out how to use her $5k camera's video function

I will be making more videos.  I still have a ton of update videos to do.

I plan on doing a series on homemade zombie weaponry and armor as well.

I've made a homemade macuahuitl, throwing spear, and pilum for the series.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: ways and means on April 28, 2011, 02:05:50 AM
So Sebastian from Kuroshitsuji (Super-powered Demonic Butler with bizzare paternal feelings for his master) would be 264 complexity, that seems a lot though I suppose if it was possible in a normal submerged game it would be horrificly game breaking.

Are their any set rules for how much complexity a human sacarafise gives and whether more sacrafise victims linearly scale up the complexity (diminishing returns or not)? I am Trying to figure out ways of doing such a ritual in game currently I am working on 10 -100 human sacrafises (depending on diminishing returns) or 100s of animal sacrafises.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: fantazero on April 28, 2011, 02:33:00 AM

I mostly do weapon reviews or weapon information videos.

This is one of my most popular so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ys_CEoEpk4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ys_CEoEpk4)

I also have LARP videos and such too.  Like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcaUGGrk3t4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcaUGGrk3t4)

I haven't made any new vids for a while.

As soon as:

A. I finally get all the boxes unpacked in my new house and

B.  My gf figures out how to use her $5k camera's video function

I will be making more videos.  I still have a ton of update videos to do.

I plan on doing a series on homemade zombie weaponry and armor as well.

I've made a homemade macuahuitl, throwing spear, and pilum for the series.

And dont forget about the B-Bear Shower Webcam, 2 bits a gander lol.

Be really interested in the zombie stuff, post it!
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: BumblingBear on April 28, 2011, 03:48:09 AM
And dont forget about the B-Bear Shower Webcam, 2 bits a gander lol.

Be really interested in the zombie stuff, post it!

I need to take better pics, but this is the macuahuitl.

(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9242/95204133.jpg)

The edges are overlapping razor blades.

(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7392/61121001.jpg)

It was modeled after the Aztec macuahuitl that used obsidian flakes for blades.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: evileeyore on April 28, 2011, 04:38:28 AM
@ Sanctaphrax

Looks like your first post has th methods very balanced versus each other, your second post lost me.

I'll give it all a reread tomorrow afternoon.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 28, 2011, 08:43:44 PM
@BumblingBear: Remind me not to pick a fight with you.

@evileeyore: The gist of the second post is:

1. I don't understand Method #2 very well.
2. In Method #1, uncontrolled creatures cost half their normal complexity while super-helpful ones cost three times their normal complexity.

@ways and means: A human sacrifice is good for 20 shifts (full consequence track) if I recall correctly. I think it's linear, but diminishing returns would make a very good houserule.

Never seen Kuroshitsuji.

By the way, a Jeeves Demon Lord will probably make the PCs feel pretty useless as it goes around solving all their problems easily.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: fantazero on April 28, 2011, 09:03:49 PM
@BBear
But how does it hold up against a human skull.
lets grab a side of pork and find out someday  ;)
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on April 28, 2011, 09:10:36 PM
@evileeyore: The gist of the second post is:
1. I don't understand Method #2 very well.

We may need UmbraLux to weigh in. Did you ever hear back?
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: BumblingBear on April 28, 2011, 11:55:55 PM
@BBear
But how does it hold up against a human skull.
lets grab a side of pork and find out someday  ;)

I really want to do a video of that or vs a coconut.

Part of why the macuahuitl was such a devastating weapon is that it combines slicing edges with blunt force, AND the blades can come out and get stuck in the wounds.

The Spanish conquistadors were  terrified of the things.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: citadel97501 on April 29, 2011, 12:37:24 AM
I doubt they were that effective at killing, but dear god I expect the wounds they inflicted were horrifying and painful.  I would expect the most common death, was being knocked unconscious and bleeding to death. 
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 29, 2011, 01:04:00 AM
UmbraLux never responded. I suppose I ought to message him again.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: BumblingBear on April 29, 2011, 02:44:48 AM
I doubt they were that effective at killing, but dear god I expect the wounds they inflicted were horrifying and painful.  I would expect the most common death, was being knocked unconscious and bleeding to death. 

The conquistadors reported witnessing a macuahuitl completely decapitate a horse.

Look it up.  They're nasty.

They were made of knapped obsidian, one of the sharpest blades in the world.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: ways and means on April 30, 2011, 01:33:09 PM
I would run summoning as three different rituals, the summoning (Creatures conviction +4 + summoned creatures refresh) , the containment (ward strong enough to beat at least +4 the enemies best means of escape, which would most likly be magic or might). At this point a Summoner could attempt social combat with demon/creature to barter for what he wants. Or they could attempt a lawbreaking binding which I would either structure as a mental block against disobeying the master (Conviction/discipline +4 + duration) or as a full mental takeout which would lead to the summoned creature having its high concept changed to include 'loyal to the master'. (conviction/discipline +4 + full concequences).  

I know this method is more complex than the one step methods of Sanctaphrax but it seems closer to the actual method of summoning in dresden files books, I would not let a pc design what they were summoning beyond a name and their best research to keep thing balanced.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: evileeyore on April 30, 2011, 02:00:40 PM
I know this method is more complex than the one step methods of Sanctaphrax but it seems closer to the actual method of summoning in dresden files books, I would not let a pc design what they were summoning beyond a name and their best research to keep thing balanced.

And for a repeat summonig?  Bringing back a creature you;ve summoned repeatedly before, or even have contracted deals with?

What about summoning a constructed form, say an Elemental or Golem?
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: ways and means on April 30, 2011, 02:39:44 PM
And for a repeat summoning?  Bringing back a creature you’ve summoned repeatedly before, or even have contracted deals with?

What about summoning a constructed form, say an Elemental or Golem?

A repeat summoning would be pretty much the same unless the creature wanted to be summoned, for creatures like Chauncy who live off the summoning circuit you probably could probably just spend use a single shift of power for the summoning to get their attention and which point they will probably choose to show up or be compelled to if they have made a deal, even with a demon who you have an agreement with skipping containment will almost always be a really bad idea.

Elementals would work roughly the same way as summoning a demon or any other spirit, the containment, the summoning and the binding if negotiations break down, though with appropriate wards and bindings etc  for elementals rather than demons. As for golems I am less sure about them, there should probably be a craftsmanship roll for the creation of the body (which would probably determine how much physical stress the golem could have in a similar way to endurance for a person). Otherwise the summoning of a spirit to run the golem should run the same ways as the summoning of any other spirit.   
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on April 30, 2011, 04:18:21 PM
I know this method is more complex than the one step methods of Sanctaphrax but it seems closer to the actual method of summoning in dresden files books, I would not let a pc design what they were summoning beyond a name and their best research to keep thing balanced.

That's why this is a houserule system!
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 01, 2011, 05:44:21 AM
Reasonable system. I'll add it to the list.

However, I don't really like it. It's not crunchy enough for me.

To each their own, I suppose.

By the way: I agree that letting players design creatures for summoning is a recipe for balance problems. This system was originally intended as a set of vague guidelines to help GMs choose a complexity for a summoning ritual. But it morphed into a real system somehow.

You'd be better off treating these as guidelines than as rules. And not letting players design their summons is totally reasonable.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: UmbraLux on May 03, 2011, 11:24:55 PM
We may need UmbraLux to weigh in.
Hmm, it's been a while and my access is limited at the moment but I think I've been given more credit than is deserved.   Here's what I had posted in the original thread: 
...how does this look:
  • + max shifts to take out entity
  • + one shift per power / stunt point
  • + shifts equal to entity's skill cap
  • + shifts for duration
  • +/- three shifts per quality or defect (one free tag)
  • +/- nine shifts per sticky quality or defect (always in effect)
Some things, such as demons, should probably automatically get a Dark Powers are Always Willing to 'Help'...for a Price or an Interprets Everything to fit it's Own Agenda sticky defect...or even both.

That keeps it simple and allows for cheap summoning - at a price.
Not sure I'd dignify it by calling it a full summoning system but it took feedback from Sanctaphrax, devonapple, and others to get it this far.  (Thanks all!  :) ) 

It is worth emphasizing this came out of discussion - I never play tested it!  The qualities & defects in particular are open to abuse if not applied with reason.  Perhaps someday I'll play again instead of GM...then see how much of it works.  :)
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 04, 2011, 02:22:52 AM
Most of this thread is untested. That will hopefully change sooner or later.

Anyway, I mostly just want to know what you envision for the use of sticky qualities and defects. An example would be great.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: ways and means on May 04, 2011, 07:12:24 PM
Does anyone have any house rules on how white court feeding works ? and on what touch means in gameplay mechanics? 
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 04, 2011, 11:29:47 PM
Not me.

I'm kinda torn on whether I should require a Fists roll for Incite Emotion without At Range. And I'm not sure whether you can touch people freely in social combat.

Also, I'm curious whether people apply the +2 bonus for Incite Emotion maneuvers to mental attacks. I don't, but I think that the rules can be read either way.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on May 04, 2011, 11:43:51 PM
I'm kinda torn on whether I should require a Fists roll for Incite Emotion without At Range. And I'm not sure whether you can touch people freely in social combat.

That rule is phrased in what could be a *very* equivocal manner (the way it specifies "if you can touch" not "you must touch"). If it was a Fairy bargain, I'd be very suspicious of the terminology. I waver between interpreting the rule as requiring either simple proximity, or an actual commitment to touch. The RAW may implicitly assume that WCVs can easily achieve physical contact without it meriting a Fists check, focusing instead on the mental fortitude of the target rather than their dexterity. Note that in RPGs like D&D, a "touch attack" can be easier than a full attack. That said, physical Aspects and Maneuvers can maybe help the target defend against what is ostensibly a Mental attack that happens to use a physical special effect.

For example, someone who was suspicious of a WCV touching them could spend an action to use an Athletics-based Navel-Gazing Maneuver to arm themselves with the Aspect "Don't Touch Me," and then tag it on the defense roll against the WCV's otherwise "Mental" touch attack.

I might even allow that Aspect to work against a Ranged (non-touch) Incite Emotion attack, ruling that the Aspect reflect's the target's awareness of the danger and resistance to the threat of mental compromise.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 04, 2011, 11:46:17 PM
Maybe we could let people use Athletics instead of Discipline to defend against emotion-touches.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on May 04, 2011, 11:55:06 PM
Maybe we could let people use Athletics instead of Discipline to defend against emotion-touches.

One could theoretically argue back that Discipline accurately reflects a target's ability to keep from getting lulled into allowing the sort of touching a WCV needs to do the job. It all depends on how we are abstracting the power and its functioning.

Say you have a Great-Discipline Mediocre-Athletics bookworm alongside a Great-Athletics Mediocre-Discipline boxer, facing off against a pair of WCVs. Would you let each freely choose which skill they roll to defend?

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that the RAW may intentionally assume that *touching* a target isn't any challenge at all for a WCV.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 05, 2011, 12:15:38 AM
I think I'd probably let them pick their best skill.

But you're right. It might be intentionally ignored.

Judgement call, in the end. We're in the right place for that.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on May 05, 2011, 04:03:11 PM
I think I'd probably let them pick their best skill.

But you're right. It might be intentionally ignored.

Judgement call, in the end. We're in the right place for that.

I emailed Fred Hicks/iago with my question:
Quote
Incite Emotion (at least the basic power) mentions needing to be able
to touch an opponent. Some folks are interpreting that as requiring a
Fists roll to succeed against a target before making an
Intimidation/Deceit roll against the opponent's Discipline (per the
Incite Emotion power). Others have ruled that any contact - such as a
target hitting the WCV - can create the circumstances necessary for
using the Incite Emotion power. In one example, a wary opponent in a
physical conflict interpreted an Incite Emotion attempt as a physical
attack and so was allowed to dodge.

I'm interpreting the RAW as taking for granted that *touching* a
target isn't any challenge at all for a WCV, and that the requirement
simply exists to specify that WCV and target must be in the same Zone,
and close enough that a physical touch would be possible, but that a
Fists check isn't required, even in combat (though I would let wary
opponents use Athletics/etc. to create Aspects they could tag to
defend against the Incite Emotion attack).

His response:
Quote
Intent:

- WCV must deliberately touch opponent
- some opponents are willing or unaware; those circumstances likely
justify a no-roll touch
- some wish to avoid it; there, some kind of contested skill roll is appropriate

The nature of that skill roll might change based on context. Combat,
fists vs athletics might do it.  Or maybe it's social, and we're
looking at Deceit or Stealth vs Lore-as-sixth-sense or Alertness. Etc

So context does determine whether it is a contested roll or not. This means that effective WCVs probably want to have high Fists skills (and in the book, most seem to)!

Where was that thread where we planned to compile these rules explanations?
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: ways and means on May 05, 2011, 04:17:10 PM
wrong thread
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on May 05, 2011, 04:33:28 PM
wrong thread

Nope, right thread. I went to the source because we were disagreeing on how to answer your question:

Does anyone have any house rules on how white court feeding works ? and on what touch means in gameplay mechanics? 
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 05, 2011, 08:31:24 PM
I think he meant, "I posted this to the wrong thread, so I'll edit it away and write "wrong thread"".
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: devonapple on May 05, 2011, 08:40:43 PM
I think he meant, "I posted this to the wrong thread, so I'll edit it away and write "wrong thread"".

I can buy that. But yes, it appears we were both right, as Ben Kenobi would say, "from a certain point of view."
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: ways and means on May 05, 2011, 10:35:24 PM
Santaphax is right I posted something I meant to post on consession in here.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Taran on December 04, 2014, 07:32:28 PM
And now, RISE!  RIIIISE!

Thread Necromancy. 

I was cleaning out my browser favorites and found this.  I'm wondering if these various house-rules are compiled neatly somewhere.  It seems very useful to, maybe, have on the resource board?
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 05, 2014, 06:45:57 AM
I don't know if everything here is there, but the wiki does have a house rule section (http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/House+Rules).

As for putting this on the resources board, I dunno. This thread is kind of a relic, but it might be nice to have a house rule resource.

If you're reading this, please drop in and tell me what you think. I'll move the thread if people want me to.
Title: Re: House Rules And Homebrew
Post by: Taran on December 05, 2014, 12:53:35 PM
Ok, I didn't know it was on the wiki.