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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: arete on November 26, 2010, 10:45:32 PM

Title: Summer Knight
Post by: arete on November 26, 2010, 10:45:32 PM
I have a character in my game that was destined to pick up a sword of the cross, but he was "tricked" into becoming the Summer knight.

My question is how can he get out of being the summer knight? 
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Tbora on November 26, 2010, 11:24:32 PM
I have a character in my game that was destined to pick up a sword of the cross, but he was "tricked" into becoming the Summer knight.

My question is how can he get out of being the summer knight? 

He can't the only way to getting out of holding a Mantle of the Fae Courts is to die.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: arete on November 26, 2010, 11:27:50 PM
But that means he could get resurrected correct?
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: sinker on November 26, 2010, 11:30:33 PM
It really would depend on the pact that he made with one of the Queens. How was he tricked?
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Tbora on November 26, 2010, 11:40:47 PM
But that means he could get resurrected correct?

Actually we have this lovely WOJ quote that implies not even death does if you come back, meaning it sounds like your stuck with being the Summer Knight if you can't make a deal with your GM to do something to it

Quote from: WOJ Sticky Thread
318 “Does Dresden’s current condition mean that the Knights power has flowed back to Mab?”
That’s one of those questions that will be more fun to answer in the book. Smiley
But merely being dead does /not/ necessarily get you out of promises to Mab all by itself. I mean, come on. Like she’s never heard THAT lame excuse before… Smiley
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Big daddy rakshasa85 on November 26, 2010, 11:49:42 PM
Why couldn't the Summer Knight just use a Sword of the Cross? Sounds epic to me.

Conflict of interest, maybe?
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: arete on November 27, 2010, 12:08:54 AM
I view being the summer knight and wielding a sword of the cross as a conflict of interest.


He was tricked in his backstory so things are less detailed, but what happened was:  as a mortal he defended a young changeling.  In the process of that fight the summer lady and knight had been killed and the power shifted to him and the changeling.  I am sure we can twist the rest of facts to make a good story.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Amseriah on November 27, 2010, 04:27:38 AM
I would think that maybe intervention on the part of the Heavenly Host might help out, or if you could prove that the contract was somehow not legal in some way.  He could go on strike and Titania would have to force him to do anything that she needed, less than a desirable trait in an employee.  So far we have also never heard that a queen could not take the mantle from a knight.  Mab just wanted Slate to suffer for a VERY long time.  That is my take on why she didn't just strip him of position and power.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Tbora on November 27, 2010, 04:32:25 AM
I would think that maybe intervention on the part of the Heavenly Host might help out, or if you could prove that the contract was somehow not legal in some way.  He could go on strike and Titania would have to force him to do anything that she needed, less than a desirable trait in an employee.  So far we have also never heard that a queen could not take the mantle from a knight.  Mab just wanted Slate to suffer for a VERY long time.  That is my take on why she didn't just strip him of position and power.

Intervention by the Heavenly Host is weak and is a Deus Ex Machina in the best scenario, and a service for the Knights is for life, if they want the Mantle back they simply kill you get it, per the book in Summer Knight.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Wilder on November 27, 2010, 04:55:49 AM
Also, while the Summer Lady being killed and her power going into the changling is a legal, as per the books. Due to the fact that the Mantle of Knight is the conscious choice of a mortal, he had to willingly agree to the bargain. Seeing as the Knight is a mortal and retains his free will, he can't be forced into it. Fae can cause other Fae to do all sorts of stuff, no free will. Fae forcing mortals... thats why they have bargains.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: sinker on November 27, 2010, 04:56:48 AM
Also the heavenly host is big on free will. If someone chose to make a pact with the fey (and there's always a choice) it's unlikely that they wouldn't respect that decision, even if he regretted it.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Amseriah on November 27, 2010, 05:04:25 AM
So how would the Queens deal with a Knight that decided to ACT as a knight of the cross, you know running around slaying evil where he found it and refusing to act in a way to betray his conscience even if that meant refusing orders?  If they refuse to allow that they are taking away his free will which is why they need a knight in the first place.  Would they just kill him and choose another one?  That seems like a weak character death to me.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: cgodfrey7 on November 27, 2010, 05:06:37 AM
I like the idea of him having a sword of the Summer Knight, then somehow (insert major story line here) he is also given the opportunity to wield one of the Swords of the Cross, and he has to use powers from the Summer Court and the SotC in order to overcome some major evil thingy (maybe winter court evilness coupled with a mortal sorcerer raising demons or forcing fae to do his will).  Perhaps the two swords merge in to one for a brief period of time, if there are no conflicts and he adheres to both tenets, and should one tenet be broken, he will not be strong enough to defeat the evil.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: sinker on November 27, 2010, 05:14:37 AM
If he starts to break the accords that might be a situation where the queen might strip him of his power and offer him to the offended party.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Amseriah on November 27, 2010, 05:33:25 AM
I am in this particular game, he already did...attacked a RCV lair without provocation in the early stages of the WC/RCV war....
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 27, 2010, 05:35:48 AM
Why not just ask the Queen to pick someone else? Surely she wants a willing Knight.

This might go over better if you offer to find someone else for the job. This idea requires a lot of GM cooperation, but I think that it could work out quite well.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: noclue on November 27, 2010, 04:44:23 PM
Why not just ask the Queen to pick someone else? Surely she wants a willing Knight.

I think that's a big assumption when you're dealing with the Queen of Summer. Now, she may be open to making a deal, but just letting you off the hook?
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: sinker on November 27, 2010, 05:28:00 PM
I am in this particular game, he already did...attacked a RCV lair without provocation in the early stages of the WC/RCV war....

Wow, yeah. That's going to have huge political repercussions.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Amseriah on November 27, 2010, 05:57:49 PM
Yeah....and when I say attacked it, what I really mean is completely slagged the building and used all the vampires inside as kindling. 
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Carabas on November 28, 2010, 08:50:12 PM
he has to use powers from the Summer Court and the SotC

The powers of the Spirit of the Century? :D (Sorry, couldn't resist)

On a more on topic note: Why shouldn't the Summer Knight be able to pick up the Sword of the Cross and go AWOL on the Summer Queens?
After all, they won't be able to get the mantle of Summer Knight back until he dies. Sure, they can compel him, IF he incurrs debt.
But sending fae after him to kill him is a bad idea because of the pointy iron stick he now wields.

Incidentally, in my game, the Winter Queens are in a similar bind. Their Winter Knight went AWOL after picking up a blackened denarius.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Amseriah on November 29, 2010, 06:40:30 AM
I don't know if we have been running the whole Fae knight gig right.  We have been running it where the Queens have the ability to refuse to allow the knight access to their Court's magic if the knight refuses to play along with her rules.  If that is the way that it is supposed to work, or if it is the way that it can work then going AWOL with a very special pointy sword basically turns him into a vanila mortal with a really cool sword and virtually no refresh.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: arete on November 29, 2010, 03:07:32 PM
I would like to know the answer to the above question.  Because going AWOL with a SotC and keeping summer magic sounds interesting.


Edit:  fixed typos
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Amseriah on November 29, 2010, 03:45:41 PM
There wasn't a sneer in it, lol.  I was just thinking that if you lost access to summer magic while still having it take up the refresh cost of the summer magic, that would be unpleasant.  Now running off with a SotC while keeping summer magic, that would be awesome and a really dangerous vigilante.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on November 29, 2010, 04:08:00 PM
Under the Sponsored Magic section of YS, there's plenty of talk about a Sponsor pulling their power from a mortal for betrayal or drawing too deeply and incurring too much debt.

Furthermore, don't forget that the Summer Knight can be compelled by their sponsor without incurring debt. That's just free Compels. Their High Concept could just as easily be compelled.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Carabas on November 29, 2010, 09:39:58 PM
Furthermore, don't forget that the Summer Knight can be compelled by their sponsor without incurring debt. That's just free Compels. Their High Concept could just as easily be compelled.

Yep, but that costs the compelling entity Fate points. And faeries don't have too many of those. Plus, it earns the Summer Knight Fate points.
Also, a AWOL Summer Knight could always change his High Concept (in fact, going AWOL with a SotC would make such a change almost mandatory).
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: sinker on November 29, 2010, 10:09:36 PM
Yep, but that costs the compelling entity Fate points. And faeries don't have too many of those. Plus, it earns the Summer Knight Fate points.

Of note I'm gonna guess that the faerie queens have as many fate points as they please, they are plot device powered beings.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: arete on November 29, 2010, 10:34:03 PM
I like the AWOL idea.  I will have to see if my summer knight is going to try it.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 29, 2010, 11:05:05 PM
I think it's a bit silly to try and track compels with NPCs like that. Not only is it arguable whether a compel to follow Titania's orders is coming from Titania or the GM, you also can't keep track of Titania's fate pool. She has other things going on in her life, and they could give her or cost her fate points. Besides, what if you're one of her aspects? Does she get a fate point every time you do something that causes her trouble?

And I really hope that you tried asking nicely before you decided to go AWOL. A little reasonableness goes a long way.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on November 30, 2010, 05:30:52 AM
Yep, but that costs the compelling entity Fate points. And faeries don't have too many of those. Plus, it earns the Summer Knight Fate points.
Also, a AWOL Summer Knight could always change his High Concept (in fact, going AWOL with a SotC would make such a change almost mandatory).

I humbly submit that changing your high concept would still have to include the phrase "summer knight" or a derivation thereof, since you would still possess the mantle. If one of my players did that to try and get out of compels, I would smack him upside the head.

Besides, debt and compels are fun! Don't try and get out of them, encourage them!
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: noclue on November 30, 2010, 08:05:16 AM
I think it's a bit silly to try and track compels with NPCs like that. Not only is it arguable whether a compel to follow Titania's orders is coming from Titania or the GM, you also can't keep track of Titania's fate pool. She has other things going on in her life, and they could give her or cost her fate points. Besides, what if you're one of her aspects? Does she get a fate point every time you do something that causes her trouble?
Compels come from the GM not NPCs.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: babel2uk on December 01, 2010, 02:57:51 PM
Compels come from the GM not NPCs.

Compels can come from NPCs. Exactly the same way that they can be done by PCs.

However, the description of the Knights of the Faerie Courts in their template does seem to indicate that they are effectively Oathbound - they are compelled to follow the orders of the lady, queen and mother and to represent their court well. Yes they have an amount of free will, but it's seriously restricted in many ways. If you take the harsher (and probably most accurate) version of an Oath from the Oaths, Bonds and Bargains section it means that the knight's patrons have a pool of compels that are already paid for and so cost no fate points to inflict and give none.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Wilder on December 01, 2010, 03:03:29 PM
New High Concept: Rogue Summer Knight of the Cross

Also, I don't think that your sponsor has to spend fate points to compel you, its part of the whole, "I give you power, you do my will" kinda thing.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: WillH on December 01, 2010, 03:46:34 PM
New High Concept: Rogue Summer Knight of the Cross

Also, I don't think that your sponsor has to spend fate points to compel you, its part of the whole, "I give you power, you do my will" kinda thing.

The sponsor doesn't, but the GM does. The only way to make a character do something their player doesn't want them to do is to compel them and give them a fate point. The only exception is sponsor debt.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: babel2uk on December 01, 2010, 04:24:26 PM
The only exception is sponsor debt.

Which can be incurred by breaking an oath to the sponsor as well as by drawing extra power. So yes, under normal circumstances fate points do have to be spent to compel a character. However, once they break the wrong sort of oath (and I'm inclined to think that the mantle of a Knight of the Faerie Courts probably qualifies as one of these) the sponsor gets to compel them a certain number of times without spending fate to do so.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: WillH on December 01, 2010, 04:59:23 PM
However, once they break the wrong sort of oath (and I'm inclined to think that the mantle of a Knight of the Faerie Courts probably qualifies as one of these) the sponsor gets to compel them a certain number of times without spending fate to do so.

Actually, no that's not quite how it works. If you use the sponsor debt option for oaths, then you incur debt at the time the oath is made. Breaking the oath resets that debt. This option isn't appropriate for someone playing a Fae Knight*. They pay full refresh for their power. They should not have to accept compels without getting fate, that is until they run up debt with their sponsored magic.

*Someone taking up the mantel during play may be a different story. Even then I would be cautious. If the debt is too high, they may see any prospect of getting out of debt as hopeless. If that's the case sponsor debt for magic can be seen as a blank check. Sponsored magic becomes less interesting because there is no reason not to take on debt from it.

 
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: noclue on December 02, 2010, 06:10:17 AM
Compels can come from NPCs. Exactly the same way that they can be done by PCs.

I guess. Here's how PCs initiate compels:

Quote
If you are aware of and can access an aspect on another character or NPC, you may spend a fate point to try to trigger the circumstances of a compel. If the GM decides this is a compel worthy-circumstance, then she takes the offered fate point and proceeds with a compel, running it as if she initiated the compel herself (YS107).

So I guess if the GM wants her NPC to initiate a compel the GM can have a discussion with herself and pay herself a fate point if she decides its compel-worthy and then she can run the compel as if she herself initiated it and offer that fate point to the PC.

Life is really too short.

Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: babel2uk on December 02, 2010, 08:27:14 AM
So I guess if the GM wants her NPC to initiate a compel the GM can have a discussion with herself and pay herself a fate point if she decides its compel-worthy and then she can run the compel as if she herself initiated it and offer that fate point to the PC.

Life is really too short.

*sigh* sometimes I really wonder why I bother responding to some of these threads. I think I shall just not bother in future.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: noclue on December 02, 2010, 01:54:07 PM
Too snarky?

Sorry. No offense intended.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: arete on December 05, 2010, 03:38:31 AM
Thanks to everyone for the constructive ideas.  I will update this thread if my summer knight tries to get out of his deals. 
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Amseriah on December 05, 2010, 03:50:50 AM
Stupid question about the comment that Jim made about death not being a way out of the gig:  Could that be a perk of the position?  You die and your respective Queen heals you or finds some way to bring you back to life, because you still have a job to do.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Drashna on December 05, 2010, 08:45:20 AM
Under no circumstance would I *EVER* call that a perk! EVER! I mean, jim says that
(click to show/hide)
 Would you love that fate???

One idea of how to get out of the deal: find and train a better knight and make a deal with one of the Big Powers.
Title: Re: Summer Knight
Post by: Amseriah on December 05, 2010, 12:19:31 PM
Lol!  No I really wouldn't ever call it a real perk, but the idea of a Fae Knight that was almost like Kenny from South Park (dies every single session only to be brought back by his Queen every time) I find hilarious.  Especially if the character knew it was going to happen and so he took risks that he knew are fatal out of spite.  Really dark and not really heroic in any way but kind of funny in a dark and twisty kind of way.