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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: MijRai on August 30, 2010, 09:02:19 AM
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A grapple is a block against actions. Does it block Incite Emotions? All Incite Emotions needs is contact for some uses. I mean, it seems to me that Inciting wouldn't be blocked by hugs. It might even be stronger.
We've seen Thomas Incite when he is half-insane, nearly unconscious. I don't think nearly intimate physical contact would stop it.
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A grapple is a block against actions.
A grapple is a block against physical actions.
So I dont see how a grapple couls block an incite emotion.
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In the book, it says a grapple blocks all actions. However, it also states that a GM can do it differently. I don't know.
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A successfully established grapple isn't just "you grab them", it's a hold that specifically makes it hard for them to act/concentrate/whatever.
However, I'd totally allow a WCV to use Incite Emotion to defend against a grapple attempt. "Sure you grab him. After that it starts to get a little hazy..."
James
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As a default (simple) rule, it says it blocks all actions. Then it gives GMs free reign to use common sense to rule that some actions (many physical actions or complex ones such as spellcasting) should be impacted, but others (such as perception or academic ones) shouldn't. If I were your GM, I would say that Incite Emotions would be perfectly acceptable, but it's up to your GM and group to decide.
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It is not completely illogical that a grapple could block a use of incite emotion. Imagine for example that a vampire from House Malovra is using Incite Emotion to make you feel fear. If you have them in a half nelson, that is going to:
- make it harder for them to focus on incting the fear in you because they are being grapppled and
- make said vamp less scary because it is, after all, trapped in a half nelson
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Perhaps it's meant to be "blocks all physical actions", because I can see someone pulling a social maneuver while grappled.
An easy one that comes to mind is a little brother throwing himself at his big brother until the big brother grapples to the floor, then the little brother whining "Mommy! Timmy's beating me up again!", tagging his brother with "ratted out to mom". There are countless situations like that where saying something while grappled could easily a social maneuver.
Richard
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The rules specifically mention using Intimidate to break out of a grapple. Since Incite Emotion (Fear) is performed using Intimidate with a +2 bonus it means that it should be affected by the Grapple.
An easy one that comes to mind is a little brother throwing himself at his big brother until the big brother grapples to the floor, then the little brother whining "Mommy! Timmy's beating me up again!", tagging his brother with "ratted out to mom". There are countless situations like that where saying something while grappled could easily a social maneuver.
I'd say that falls into the category of successfully making a maneuver through the block imposed by the grapple. It doesn't actually break the grapple, but the 'ratted out to mom' aspect may be invoked to help break the grapple next exchange (and the success on this maneuver effectively strips big brother of the supplementary action options this time as little brother wriggles partially free to yell).
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See, I get that WCVs incite emotion as naturally as they breathe, but given that many types of grappling actually prevent breathing, I'd say that grapples do indeed act as blocks against just about any type of activity that requires mental focus. Just ask yourself this question, "If I were capable of performing X activity, where X is the outcome the player wants to achieve with one of their skills, would a person bouncing my forehead off the pavement during the attempt conceivably detract from my performance?
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The more I think about this, the more I would want to require a stunt to justify it. Something like
-1 "Hold me like you mean it."
You may use Deceit to defend against grapple attempts. On a successful defend you may sacrifice your next action to place a tempory aspect on your opponent.
The intimidate equivalent might be something like "Get your [...] hands off me!"
James
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See, I get that WCVs incite emotion as naturally as they breathe, but given that many types of grappling actually prevent breathing, I'd say that grapples do indeed act as blocks against just about any type of activity that requires mental focus. Just ask yourself this question, "If I were capable of performing X activity, where X is the outcome the player wants to achieve with one of their skills, would a person bouncing my forehead off the pavement during the attempt conceivably detract from my performance?
But the "bouncing my forehead off the pavement" part would be inflicting stress and (after maybe the first bounce or two) consequences, which is what would cause problems for abilities requiring some freedom of thought. Grappling on it's own is just pinning someone. And frankly, if a police officer managed to pin a WCV to the ground, I don't think it would in any way reduce the effectiveness of their incite emotion power.
Now, if they'd been doing the head-thump thing (at 1 stress per round), then after a few rounds they might have a "Dizzy" consequence to Compel them to fail their attempt to incite emotions...
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Personally, I feel that grappling a WCV is just... an awful idea. Especially Raiths.
Cop grapples WCV(Raith) to the ground, finding her extremely hard to hold down, he uses his body weight to pin her. He then starts trying to put hand cuffs on the... beautiful... *drool*... soft... Yeah... yeah right. She couldn't have him MORE where she wants him.
But anyway, GM adjudication. I doubt that grapple blocks ALL action. That's not reasonable.
Then again, the rules aren't perfect.
The way the book describes falling damage would make parkour and Jackie Chan both completely impossible.
So... personally, I'd assume that it blocks physical actions, but even there, that there is some room for common sense rulings.
If my group tried to use a grapple on a Raith, that'd be a mistake.
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Personally, I feel that grappling a WCV is just... an awful idea. Especially Raiths.
Cop grapples WCV(Raith) to the ground, finding her extremely hard to hold down, he uses his body weight to pin her. He then starts trying to put hand cuffs on the... beautiful... *drool*... soft... Yeah... yeah right. She couldn't have him MORE where she wants him.
If my group tried to use a grapple on a Raith, that'd be a mistake.
Wouldn't the fact that someone is in some sort of headlock make them seem less attractive to you, or is that just me being weird? If it would not, wouldn't having someone in a headlock make them at least slightly less scary (if you were fighting a Malvora)?
Given how borderline broken incite emotion is, should we not at least let our players have some benfit from grapples in battle with WCVs (e.g. if the above view is rejected, why not at least let aspects placed on the WCV from grappling be used to defend against the incite emotion attack).
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Wouldn't the fact that someone is in some sort of headlock make them seem less attractive to you, or is that just me being weird? If it would not, wouldn't having someone in a headlock make them at least slightly less scary (if you were fighting a Malvora)?
Given how borderline broken incite emotion is, should we not at least let our players have some benfit from grapples in battle with WCVs (e.g. if the above view is rejected, why not at least let aspects placed on the WCV from grappling be used to defend against the incite emotion attack).
How would 'wrestling' with a hot woman not make the average guy less attracted?
Besides, we've seen Whites Incite with worse distractions then a tussle. Pair of bullet wounds, a death curse, having been tortured and starved for a long time, etc.
I could see Grapples fighting Incite against Fear. But against Rage, Lust, Despair? That is harder to accept.
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Besides, we've seen Whites Incite with worse distractions then a tussle. Pair of bullet wounds, a death curse, having been tortured and starved for a long time, etc.
Yeah, and Lara even managed to be creepy seductive even when she was covered in third degree burns. So I'd say grappling a white court vampire wouldn't make them any less supernaturally sexy.
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It seems to me like everyone is treating a block as though it prevents an action from being attempted. It doesn't. It just makes that action a little more difficult to accomplish. I have absolutely no problem with the concept that being involved in a grapple might feasibly make it more difficult to successfully incite emotion in the person doing the grappling. To put it another way why on earth should a person who's managed (somehow, given a WCV's natural advantages) to get the drop on a WCV be penalised for doing so? I'd argue that the reason the block should apply to Incite Emotion is more tied in with the mental focus of the person doing the grappling than with anything specifically physical - they're in a position of power, focussed on preventing their quarry from escaping. Essentially it takes more to break their focus than in a different situation, but it's not impossible.
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Yeah, and Lara even managed to be creepy seductive even when she was covered in third degree burns. So I'd say grappling a white court vampire wouldn't make them any less supernaturally sexy.
I forgot that one. That was the worst of it too.